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Hammer
Social climber
Custer, SD
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Summit register?...no problem, I'll put one up there as soon as I get home from this work trip I'm on. Will be back the end of the month, will get register up in september.
Nice to hear Don's thoughts about the route, and thank you Don for your part in establishing the route, will be thinking about the situation. I understand the reasons to leave it as is, and I understand the reasons to make it safer.
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wiclimber
Trad climber
devil's lake, wi
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Wow, this thread keeps getting better and better.
Would be great to get a crew out to the Needles some week in Autumn.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 8, 2007 - 10:47am PT
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Whatever doubts I had about writing up this account for SuperT, the fact that it has lead to getting back in touch with Don certainly makes it worthwhile.
I do hope that my descriptions of Don's enthusiasm for female anatomy have not obscured the fact that the first ascent of the Needle's Eye was his idea, and that it would never have happened had he not been bold enough to launch up that face without any idea at all whether he would find adequate protection up at the "fold." I happened to have arrived at the top first, but the Needle's Eye is primarily his achievement.
One of the things about Don I didn't dwell on is his modesty and decency, but I think those traits shine through in his immediate reaction about the need to make the climb safer. Whatever your particular take on the gains and losses associated retrobolting, and I personally think the issue is indeed complicated, Don's immediate reflex here to protect those who have come after us is typical of the humanity of the man.
Welcome, Don!
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wootles
climber
Gamma Quadrant
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I'm curious. Have there been many falls held by the pin/s? If it is a common occurrence it would probably be a good idea to place a bolt at the level of the pin/s with the dual purpose of perhaps saving a life and preserving the rock. Certainly the pin/s could be replaced, but how many times before the placement is destroyed and useless? Not that my opinion should matter in this case; just a thought to chew on. I would say it's largely up to Rgold and Don.
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Prod
Social climber
Charlevoix, MI
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Hey Wiclimber,
I would come if you set up a get together. Sounds like I'd be getting the VIP tour from this group.
Not that I carry any weight here but some time in mid to late Oct would be best for me....
Prod.
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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About the pins on Needles Eye. My opinion doesnt mean crap; however, anyone venturing up there should be in the mindset that "the leader must not fall", a good mantra for many Needles climbs. The best pro is found within oneself on many of those climbs.
I do respect and understand why Don would want them replaced with a bolt. Nobody wants others to get hurt or die on a route that they happen to put up.
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jgill
climber
Colorado
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Hey Don,
It's been a long time! Good to see you show up here. Here is a photo of you starting Cutfinger Crack at Jenny Lake, some time in the mid 1960s I would guess.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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It's not the kind of 5.8 lead that a 5.8 leader should even think about.
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wiclimber
Trad climber
devil's lake, wi
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If you can't down climb it, you shouldn't lead it.
That's how the Conn's climbed.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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The Conns did what they did and seem to work for them. This was a special climb at special time.
Nice thread.
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Hammer
Social climber
Custer, SD
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The fall I described earlier was a total surprise to the climber when the hold broke (the leader must not fall).
The Conn's didn't climb this route (don't lead it if you can't downclimb it).
5.8 was as hard as I could lead the first time I led this route (I had followed it before).
The opinions of all climbers are appreciated in these discussions and yes, Rich and Don have the final say.
Thank you all for your opinions.
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Oli
Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Rich, I'd be curious to know more detail about the Needle's Eye, for example if you had any chalk, or if you were using a swami belt, or if you'd tapped into the new Chouinard pitons yet, or where the sun shines, what direction it comes from in the early morning when you were climbing, and what the actual grade would be. I hear 5.8 thrown around, but it seems that might be a "Needles' grading." Would that climb actually be 5.9 by any normal standard? Psychologically it sounds like 5.10... Were you using RD's then or some other shoe? How far out were you from your piton, at the hardest moves, exactly? And so forth... Was it easy to get off the top? How did you do it? Did Don follow? How did he get down? Were you both on the top at one time, or separately? Exactly how tall is the spire? Does a single rope reach doubled?
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Prod
Social climber
Charlevoix, MI
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Hey Chiloe,
Is the fixed Piton in this pic or is it below the bottom of the pic? Also it looks like there are anchors at the top? Is that the case?
Prod.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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The horizontal break near the climber holds the only piton opportunities. The crux moves go right and then up -- Rich or somebody who's actually led this should give the play-by-play.
From this perspective it looks deceptively un-steep. See the photo I linked earlier for a better sense of the angle.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 9, 2007 - 05:29pm PT
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"Rich, I'd be curious to know more detail about the Needle's Eye, for example if you had any chalk,
No.
or if you were using a swami belt,
I was, but I think Don was still tying in with the rope.
or if you'd tapped into the new Chouinard pitons yet,
No.
or where the sun shines, what direction it comes from in the early morning when you were climbing,
Well, the face we were on faces Southeast, I think, so it is possible that the early morning sun would be in your eyes. However, I don't remember any problem with the sun.
and what the actual grade would be. I hear 5.8 thrown around, but it seems that might be a "Needles' grading." Would that climb actually be 5.9 by any normal standard? Psychologically it sounds like 5.10...
I think 5.8 is about right. Around twenty years later (then in my early forties), I found myself in the Needles Eye parking lot once again, at the end of the day, with Kevin Bein, who was living in Custer at the time with Barbara. On the spur of the moment, I decided to see what kind of nonsense I'd been up to as a callow youth, and did the route again. I was kinda hoping the bulge at the top would turn out to be harder than 5.8, but I don't think so.
The problems of the Needle's Eye, even then but certainly nowadays with the tremendous increase in standards, are primarily psychological. The first ascent took place right next to the Thimble, which Gill soloed at 5.12 three years earlier, and just a short distance from Superpin, which Pete Cleveland climbed at 5.11 three years later, so I don't think anyone could look at our ascent as at all significant in terms of its difficulty.
Were you using RD's then or some other shoe?
I hadn't yet discovered RD's. I think I was climbing in kletterschuhe called "Spiders." They were kinda stiff and had a lugged sole and looked alot like another klettershuhe called "Zillertals." Sticky rubber wasn't even a twinkle in Bachar's eye yet...
How far out were you from your piton, at the hardest moves, exactly? And so forth...
Exactly? I don't know, but not that far; perhaps 15 feet. Felt like 1500 feet though...
Was it easy to get off the top? How did you do it? Did Don follow? How did he get down? Were you both on the top at one time, or separately? Exactly how tall is the spire? Does a single rope reach doubled?
Don followed easily, and we were both on top together. We rappelled off the top. I don't recall whether we had to do one or two rappels; you go first to a shoulder high on the Northwest side. The entire climb might be 100 feet or so; someone who's done it more recently could answer with alot more precision. Our ropes at the time were 120 feet.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Priceless.
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Oli
Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Aug 10, 2007 - 03:34am PT
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Rich, did you hammer some pitons in at the top, to rappel, or was it possible to drape some slings around the summit? How did you anchor the belay and the rappel? I'm just trying to really get the full picture in every detail...
Thanks so much for the fine memories.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Aug 10, 2007 - 08:08am PT
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Rich, Great memories. I really like hearing those sorts of details--Spiders, tying into the rope, 120 foot ropes and terrifying 5.8. Nowadays, those sorts of details are totally irrelevant.
Best, Roger
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 10, 2007 - 09:50am PT
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Pat, I don't remember how we anchored or got off, but I don't remember much fussing to get it done. Perhaps the party that had bolted up the West face from the shoulder left some kind of anchor? I really don't recall.
Somewhat later, after I had met and climbed with Kamps, I became very sensitive about leaving anything on top of a spire, and we improvised various ways (not including simul-rapping, actually) to get down without leaving anchors or slings.
I also have come across some pictures of me climbing at Devil's Lake, WI with some Chouinard pitons on my rack, and this would have been at approximately the same time as the Needle's Eye ascent, so maybe we did have some Chouinard hardware. But I remember Don placing a Simond horizontal and I especially remember the gold Charlet-Moser horizontal (with the eye twisted at a 45 degree angle to the blade) that I placed.
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