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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jan 17, 2016 - 06:56pm PT
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What understanding have you ever arrived at which is an indirect experience?
I have a basic understanding of the process of hari kiri, the culture surrounding it, and the meaning of the act, but I've never personally tried it.
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Not getting it, perhaps because I framed it wrong.
You understanding of hari kari was known to you through a 3rd person description. Whether it be a description by way of a thought, or through actually cutting yourself, you directly experience both the same way - directly through your awareness.
I should have said: No one can indirectly experience any person, place, thing or phenomenon, be it hari kari or a thought. We only KNOW through directly experiencing what appears in our field of awareness.
And Ed going on and on does not address my simple and incontrovertible point.
Simply put, all reductionism is the search for the fundamental nature of reality - what it is and how it works. By its very nature, reductionism looks at increasingly discrete phenomenon for answers, which takes us down to particles. Quite naturally, reductionism does not stop there, because we haven't probed the question about where the particles came from.
This leads back to the big bang and the probable origin of particles. Prior to that we are on a slippery slope, but most cosmoligists who are not gun-shy of the question are almost all in agreement that particles were birthed or sourced by some form of energy, latent, potential, or otherwise. A flavor of this, says a cosmologist friend of mine, is perhaps played out in so-called empty or open space, space that according to our sense organs (which experience objects and measurements) is devoid of things.
Turns out the space is alive with energy glitching in and out - but that's another subject. Reductionism must go on and ask: Where did the energy come from? Since there was no stuff prior to the big bang to source the energy, we are left with two probable answers: energy came from nothing, or it was never sourced in the first place. Rather energy is an infinite quality or phenomenon.
My best guess - and it is a guess - is that raw awareness (the irreducible aspect of consciousness), when allowed to detach from things, has a flavor of this unborn energy, bearing a duo-nature of being entirely empty , like empty space, and entirely alive, meaning fully charged.
JL
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Jan 17, 2016 - 08:37pm PT
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You're no Christian ......
i'm sure your right Quacker. Since you've already admitted to not ever reading the bible, i'm positive our approaches are divided by separate paths......
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jan 17, 2016 - 11:14pm PT
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Largo, you've got the energy thing very wrong.
You simply do not understand what you are being told.
(is that short enough for you?).
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Jan 18, 2016 - 12:23am PT
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There are many that get lost, or never knew a spiritual relationship in the first place because they weren't able to get past their works.
And the opposite mirror of that are the Protestants so caught up in reciting their scriptures that they have no time for works or compassion for anyone, just self righteous bigotry.
Don't forget blue, I grew up in Texas as a young child so I remember all those good Protestants preaching that the Protestants across the street were going to hell based on their slightly different interpretations of the scriptures. Meanwhile we went to segregated schools and churches, all products of scripture spouting Protestants. And then there were the guys in sheets burning crosses around town.
Each religion has its strengths and weaknesses and Protestantism is no different.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Jan 18, 2016 - 12:25am PT
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Mark, wow!
Thank you.
That will keep me busy for months!
I usually read pub med for the latest DNA studies so this will be yet another interesting topic to be immersed in.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 18, 2016 - 08:54am PT
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Billions and billions of Christians have never read the Bible.
The living entity is by defacto standard constitutional position a Christian, (Christo @ Latin) since it's part parcel of God.
It's when the living entity comes in contact with the inferior material energies and consciousness that it forgets its true constitutional position.
The material designations Christian, Hindu, Muslim, etc etc are all sectarian.
Christ came to revive the living entities true consciousness.
Christ is saktyavesa avatara, nitya siddha ever liberated and never falls under the illusion of maya or the material illsionary energies.
Christ can never be killed nor cut nor ever die nor be born.
To see such a thing is due to the defect of material consciousness and the power of the illusionary material energies, Mayadevi.
So when Blue says one who's never read the Bible is in illusion of Christ he's in very very poor fund of knowledge.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Jan 18, 2016 - 09:27am PT
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Thisis by no means a complete review of the literature. It represents a sampling I thought people on this thread might find interesting.
Yoga
(Bernardi L, 2001) Effect of rosary prayer and yoga mantras on autonomic cardiovascular rhythms: comparative study
(Moruya M, 2009) Effect of slow- and fast-breathing exercises on autonomic functions in patients with essential hypertension
(Cooper S, 2003) Effect of two breathing exercises (Buteyko and pranayama) in asthma: a randomised controlled trial
(Kattab K, 2007) Iyengar yoga increases cardiac parasympathetic nervous modulation among healthy yoga practitioners,
(Wood C, 1993) Mood change and perceptions of vitality: a comparison of the effects of relaxation, visualization and yoga
(Vera FM, 2009) Subjective Sleep Quality and hormonal modulation in long-term yoga practitioners
(Shapiro D, 2007) Yoga as a Complementary Treatment of Depression: Effects of Traits and Moods on Treatment Outcome
(Brown RP, 2009) Yoga breathing, meditation, and longevity
Qigong
(Silva LM, 2005) A medical qigong methodology for early intervention in autism spectrum disorder: a case series
(Chen KW, 2006) A pilot study of external qigong therapy for patients with fibromyalgia
(Liu X, 2008) A preliminary study of the effects of Tai Chi and Qigong medical exercise on indicators of metabolic syndrome, glycaemic control, health related quality of life, and psychological health in adults with elevated blood glucose
(Oken BS, 2006) Randomized, controlled, six-month trial of yoga in healthy seniors: effects on cognition and quality of life
(Tsang HW, 2008) A review on neurobiological and psychological mechanisms underlying the anti-depressive effect of qigong exercise
(Ryu H, 1996) Acute effect of qigong training on stress hormonal levels in man
(Manzaneque JM, 2004) Assessment of immunological parameters following a qigong training program
(Vera FM, 2007) Biochemical changes after a qigong program: lipids, serum enzymes, urea, and creatinine in healthy subjects
(Chow YW, 2007) Biopsychosocial effects of qigong as a mindful exercise for people with anxiety disorders: a speculative review,
(Jones BM, 2001) Changes in cytokine production in healthy subjects practicing Guolin Qigong : a pilot study
(Liu B, 1990) Effect of qigong exercise on the blood level of monoamine neuro-transmitters in patients with chronic diseases
(Wang CCX, 1993) Effect of qigong on plasma coagulation fibrinolysis indices of hypertensive patients with blood stasis
(Ryu H, 1995) Effect of qigong training on proportions of T lymphocyte subsets in human peripheral blood
(Lee MS, 2005) Effects of Qi-therapy (external Qigong) on cardiac autonomic tone: a randomized placebo controlled study
(Lee MS, 2004) Effects of qigong on blood pressure, high-density lipoprotein cholesterol and other lipid levels in essential hypertension patients
(Litscher, G, 2001) Effects of QiGong on brain function
(Lee MS, 2003) Effects of Qigong on immune cells
(Yan X, 2006) External Qi of Yan Xin Qigong differentially regulates the Akt and extracellular signal-regulated kinase pathways and is cytotoxic to cancer cells but not to normal cells
(Li QZ, 2005) Genomic profiling of neutrophil transcripts in Asian Qigong practitioners: a pilot study in gene regulation by mind-body interaction
Silva LM, 2009) Qigong massage treatment for sensory and self-regulation problems in young children with autism: a randomized controlled trial
(Lee MS, 2003) Qigong reduced blood pressure and catecholamine levels of patients with essential hypertension
(Chen HH, 2006) The effects of Baduanjin qigong in the prevention of bone loss for middle-aged women
Meditation
(Schneider RH, 2006) Cardiovascular disease prevention and health promotion with the transcendental meditation program and Maharishi consciousness-based health care
(Pace TW, 2009) Effect of compassion meditation on neuroendocrine, innate immune and behavioral responses to psychosocial stress
(Nyklícek I, 2008) Effects of mindfulness-based stress reduction intervention on psychological well-being and quality of life: is increased mindfulness indeed the mechanism?
(Carson JW, 2005) Loving-kindness meditation for chronic low back pain: results from a pilot trial
(Hutcherson CA, 2008) Loving-kindness meditation increases social connectedness
(Lazar SW, 2005) Meditation experience is associated with increased cortical thickness
(Oman D, 2008) Meditation lowers stress and supports forgiveness among college students: a randomized controlled trial
(Hanley A, 2006) Studies of advanced stages of meditation in the tibetan buddhist and vedic traditions. I: a comparison of general changes
(Shaltout HA, 2012) Time, touch, and compassion: effects on autonomic nervous system and well-being
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Jan 18, 2016 - 09:51am PT
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Another treasure house !
Now I have a year's worth of reading.
And finally, has anyone done work that you know of on specific chakras and their effect on physipology ?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Jan 18, 2016 - 10:02am PT
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Jeremy,
There is definitely a tradition in India that Jesus spent some of the years not described in the Bible, in India where he was known as Issa.
The story goes that his parents wanted him to get married at the customary age of 13 so he ran away and joined a camel caravan to the east. In India it is said that he got in trouble with the priests for defending untouchables and so moved north to live with the Buddhists, eventually returning to Israel.
There is no proof of this of course although I've been told that in addition to accounts in India, one has been found in a Greek Orthodox monastery in the Middle East and been suppressed. Certainly many of his teachings can be interpreted from a Hindu and Buddhist point of view.
The big question from a social science point of view is whether or not this tradition might not have been started by missionaries in order to make Jesus acceptable to Indians. On the other hand, we know that there were Buddhist missionaries in Alexandria, Egypt, so eastern thinking was known in the Biblical world, Alexandria being the largest concentration of Jews outside of Israel.
There is also a strong tradition of the Apostle Thomas going as a missionary to India and there are Christians there called Thomas Christians whose church services are in a dialect of Syriac, and whose bishop is in Antioch. The tomb of Thomas in India is sacred to Christians, Hindus and muslims there.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Jan 18, 2016 - 12:00pm PT
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I should have said: No one can indirectly experience any person, place, thing or phenomenon, be it hari kari or a thought. We only KNOW through directly experiencing what appears in our field of awareness.
This is only partially true. We cannot directly experience everything out there. For much of our knowledge we trust in the related experiences of others. A Christian may never meet Jesus in this world, but he knows in his heart that Jesus is still alive waiting on us in heaven. He learned this from others. It says so in the Bible, and apparently Werner agrees with this.
A more mundane example would be to not drive 100 mph through a school zone. You might accidentally kill a child. You don't need to try this out directly, because we know from others that it is insanely dangerous to children, and the logic is quite sound. You don't need to directly experience driving 100 mph through a school zone and killing a child to know that it is unsafe for others. You never experience it directly.
I would guess that 99.999% of human knowledge is like this. We trust in the well reasoned communication from others. That is RELATED experience. We rely on it every day for much of our choices and actions.
I suppose that may be an example of the map not being the terrain, but you don't need to directly experience everything to learn, and even KNOW things.
You don't need to know how to make a watch to know what time it is.
edit: Jan, you know the coolest little things. I accept what you said.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Jan 18, 2016 - 01:40pm PT
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^^^^Thank you, Base.
Jan, I don't know of anyone doing specific peer-reviewed published papers on the efects of the chakras on physiology.
However, The HeartMath Institute has done some very nice investigations into the beneficial effects of heart-focused appreciation on physiology. Their stuff is very well observed and solid and much of it is published.
So their work reflects the measured physiological benefits observed when an individual practices an appreciation/gratitude meditation regionally focused at the region of the heart which is the same region of the Heart Chakra (Anahata).
You can find a bunch of cool stuff about this at heartmath.org. Their biofeedback approach using this meditation and an HRV device is wonderful. I have used it with patients very successfully over the years. Many people have trouble getting the feel they are looking for to achieve the state of heart-focused appreciation/gratitude and biofeedback from the HRV device is incredibly useful.
Here are some other articles mostly written by me around these topics. Two are by John Amaro, a brilliant doc and friend, and one is by Martha Herbert, a pediatric neurologist.
The Three Treasures and the Origins of Acupuncture
The three treasures are a core concept of taoism.
http://www.theelementsofhealth.com/resources/articles/articles-healthcare/the-three-treasures-and-the.pdf
The Caduceus, Chakras, Acupuncture and Healing, Part I
by John Amaro, DC, FIAMA, Dipl. Ac, LAc
Brilliant correlations between varoius models of physiology.
http://www.theelementsofhealth.com/resources/articles/articles-acupuncture/chakras--acupuncture.pdf
Electro-Meridian Imaging (EMI): Case Histories
by John Amaro,DC,FIAMA,Dipl.Ac,Lac
Covers the approach of using an ohmmeter to measure and treat the meridians with acupuncture
http://www.theelementsofhealth.com/resources/articles/articles-acupuncture/chakras--acupuncture.pdf
Your Five Elements and the Seasons
The five elements are core concept of traditional Chinese medicine (TCM). Often a patient's presentation will make absolutely no sense from a Western medicine perspective and will be perfectly understood from a TCM perspective
http://www.theelementsofhealth.com/resources/articles/articles-acupuncture/your-five-elements-and-the.pdf
The Science of Wisdom
by Martha Herbert, MD
Dr. Herbert speaks to the wisdom of observation found in TCM and the difference between scientific understanding and the wisdom that develops from generations of observation.
http://www.theelementsofhealth.com/resources/articles/articles-miscellaneous/the-science-of-wisdom.pdf
The Science of Compassion
Here I took passages from the new testament where Jesus conveys core ethical principles and compared them to what science knows about the effects of practicing them.
http://www.theelementsofhealth.com/resources/articles/articles-miscellaneous/the-science-of-compassion.pdf
The Neurology of Thanksgiving (Gratitude)
What happens neurologically and physiologically when we practice gratitude?
http://www.theelementsofhealth.com/resources/articles/articles-miscellaneous/the-neurology-of-thanksgivi.pdf
Creating Joy
What is the process fpr creating joy?
http://www.theelementsofhealth.com/resources/articles/articles-mind/creating-joy.pdf
Much of the benefits experienced with meditation, qigong, and yoga appear to be due to improved parasympathetic tone (the Ida Nadi, Yin).
Here is a paper I wrote for patients to better understand the parasympathetic nervous system, how it works, and why it is so important to health and well-being.
http://www.theelementsofhealth.com/resources/articles/articles-stress/the-autonomic-nervous-syste.pdf
It is so fascinating to see the obvious correlation between much of the chakra model and the western medical model. You have the chakras themselves that correlate perfectly to nerve plexuses (for instance, Anahata correlates to the cardiac plexus). And the nadis sushumna, ida, and pingala correlate to the spinal cord, parasympathetic nervous system, ad the sympathetic nervous system respectively.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Jan 18, 2016 - 01:55pm PT
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Yes, I'll never forget how excited I was when I saw a chart in my chiropractor's office and realized it was the same as my yoga poster with chakras. I have thought less about the sushunma, ida and pingala however, somehow skipping from the chakras to the biochemical effects produced in the brain.
Any research on the physiology of the kundalini? or the knots in the spine at the 3rd, 4th and 5th chakras?
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Jan 18, 2016 - 02:18pm PT
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Best of the best right here. . .
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Jan 18, 2016 - 02:19pm PT
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The concept of Kundalini is pretty esoteric and I do not know of any scientific investigation.
Read the works of Gopi Krishna, Kundalini Tantra by Swami Satyananda Saraswati, and I highly recommend the books of Harish Johari. He writes from a tantric perspective and his books on the Chakras and Tantra are wonderful. His book Breath, Mind, and Consciousness is essential reading if you have an interest in this area.
The knots in front of the spine, or chakras, correlate perfectly to the nerve plexuses.
7th Chakra (Sahasrara) - cerebral cortex
6th Chakra (Ajna) - pineal gland (probably thalamus, hypothalamus, pituitary)
5th Chakra (Visuddha) - pharyngeal plexus
4th Chakra (Anahata) - cardiac plexus
3rd Chakra (Manipura) - celiac (solar) plexus
2nd Chakra (Svadistana) - splenic plexus
1st Chakra (Muladara) - sacral plexus
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Jan 18, 2016 - 03:38pm PT
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Entertaining discussions.
Unborn energy . . . Love it!
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Jan 18, 2016 - 03:52pm PT
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Anyone interested in posting their thoughts regarding the implicate and explicate orders of Bohm?
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Jan 18, 2016 - 03:57pm PT
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Unborn energy . . . Love it!
Isn't that before the Big Bang?
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Jan 18, 2016 - 05:02pm PT
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Unborn energy = gleam in the eye of God before the Big Bang.
It's great that JL can actually experience this when he goes into no-thingness. MikeL too.
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Jan 18, 2016 - 06:37pm PT
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Me: Words have no precision.
MH2: That's okay. It's enough if they have accuracy.
They don’t. Provide an illustration. Show us how any word is accurate of reality.
MF: Do you realize that doesn't make sense?
When I said that conceptuality cannot analyze itself, I was saying that conceptuality is not a concept. What understanding do you have of that?
Is experience enough evidence? Discuss.
I can see that you doubt your own experience. What else do you think you have available to you? A model? A formulation? An abstraction? What are those? Those are stick figures not unlike what a child draws of its mother. It that its mother?
Now that you've got that one note down move on to the rest. Your focus on that particular issue is making you myopic.
There is no “rest,” Mark. If you cannot say what anything is, there is no going forward, except into radical ambiguity. This the buddhist and dzogchen masters refer to as radical open-endedness, absolute spontaneity, nondual oneness, and absence of any substantiality (emptiness). If one cannot establish a base, then any superstructure is highly suspect—even those that are theoretical.
Definition: Cognition is the set of . . . .
Theories.
Ed: But perhaps he does have an argument... so far he hasn't provided it.
You’re missing the epistemological point, Ed.
. . . but I thought that it raises an interesting question regarding "truth" as the shadows on the cave wall are what we can see, according to the allegory, of The Truth.
Everything appears needing to be literal to you, Ed.
Base: . . . our knowledge we trust in the related experiences of others.
Not knowledge . . . beliefs.
Jgill: It's great that JL can actually experience this [unborn energy] when he goes into no-thingness. MikeL too.
You have no idea, do you? Someone says something you don’t understand, and you disparage it. How in the hell have you ever learned anything in your life? Did you teachers have to pound it into you through inculcation?
We are all motivated by an infinite intelligence and creativity to learn and understand only what we karma allows us. (You can substitute institutionalization, socialization, typification, habituation, current intelligence, education, social rearing, etc. for “karma.”) This is where direct experience shows up . . . AND the intelligence to look closely. But looking closely (actually a scientific approach) doesn’t suit most people. Most people jump to conclusions and rely upon others’ views as dogma.
You are your own teacher at the end of the day.
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