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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Jan 16, 2016 - 04:44pm PT
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^^^ That does sound interesting.
Sounds like with the HRV your trying to figure out why there is a variation in the resting heart beat?
Are you doing this to yourself? If so, what like every morning. Seems like the environment would have to be completely controlled, and rigorously done through out the year over all the seasons. Then compared over multiple years, season by season?
I know/recorded my chakra changes with the season. So does my waking heart rate. Which at 52 now has been averaging 48-55 over the past 7yrs now. The 55's are overwehlmingly this time of year, Feb- Apr. While in July-Aug are the lowest sometimes 44.
Of course there's been spikes that blow the average out of the water. A Fat powder day, an argument with the spouse, a dream, to much wine, etc.
I'm just wondering how you centralize your diagnosis? Like to something attributive to indegestion, and whatnot?
Seems rather to complex? Even for math! Lol
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jan 16, 2016 - 07:54pm PT
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Mark said: Are you attempting to communicate that it is an understanding that can only be had through direct experience?
What understanding have you ever arrived at which is an indirect experience? Everything you know or will ever know is a direct experience. What kind of cognitive process are you proposing is NOT experiential, or that transpires outside of your subjective bubble?
And are you saying that your nervous system itself is perceiving? We all know that nervous systems ingress sense data - that much is clear. Ed's spaceprobe can ingress data. What is the difference between the spaceprobe registering data, and and you doing so?
Reductionism makes perfect sense, till you keep reducing to origins.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Jan 16, 2016 - 08:22pm PT
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Mark-
Have you got two or three specific references I could check out? I am really interested in trying to integrate Indian yoga and chakra systems and also acupuncture with western knowledge but you are the first person on this thread that ever showed much interest.
Thanks!
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Jan 16, 2016 - 09:16pm PT
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Reductionism makes perfect sense, till you keep reducing to origins
Perhaps it would be wise to cease contemplating a reduction to "origins."
All of life are approximations. Physicists can measure physical extent down to certain limits. Should they then turn to metaphysics?
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Jan 16, 2016 - 10:00pm PT
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What understanding have you ever arrived at which is an indirect experience?
I have a basic understanding of the process of hari kiri, the culture surrounding it, and the meaning of the act, but I've never personally tried it.
Everything you know or will ever know is a direct experience .
I know not to stick my hand in the garbage disposal and turn the switch on even though I've never had a direct experience of the result.
What kind of cognitive process are you proposing is NOT experiential, or that transpires outside of your subjective bubble?
Definition: Cognition is the set of all mental abilities and processes related to knowledge, attention, memory and working memory, judgment and evaluation, reasoning and "computation", problem solving and decision making, comprehension and production of language, etc.
There are a lot of things going on there. Some of them are objectively observable such as neuron cell membrane depolarization and some of them are subjectively experienced. Is your reference to the concept experiential internal or external?
And are you saying that your nervous system itself is perceiving? We all know that nervous systems ingress sense data - that much is clear.
Yes. Perception is a process of the nervous system.
Reductionism makes perfect sense, till you keep reducing to origins.
Huh?
What is the difference between the spaceprobe registering data, and and you doing so?
Registering/remembering is a different process than evaluating, referencing, contemplating, deriving meaning, and the various other processes we are capable of.
John, For reference in our exchange my orientation is as a chiropractic physician with a particular interest in neurology, biochemistry, and the clinical applications of clinical nutrition, biofeedback, athletic training, acupuncture, yoga, chi gong, and meditation. I have interest in the natural sciences as a whole. Philosophically, I resonate with Stoicism (Marcus Aurelius is awesome!), Epicureanism, Taoism, Buddhism, Sufism, Tantra, some forms of Shamanism, and Christian Ethics (Jesus had some really cool ideas about ethics!). Explore cognition through meditation, yoga, and chi gong and have explored with psilocybin and peyote.
The point with the above is it's great to explore...
But, the primary thing to know is that I am a dedicated Agnostic.
"Agnosticism is of the essence of science, whether ancient or modern. It simply means that a man shall not say he knows or believes that which he has no scientific grounds for professing to know or believe."
~ Thomas Henry Huxley
..and the point with the above is be critical about what you find....
Blue, here is a wiki on heart rate variability.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heart_rate_variability
You can plug heart rate variability into a search on pubmed.com and get a bunch of stuff, too.
HRV is not the pulse. It is primarily variability of the rest interval between heart beats.
Jan, I can post some stuff tomorrow.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jan 17, 2016 - 12:32am PT
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Reductionism makes perfect sense, till you keep reducing to origins.
this is a recitation of one of Largo's most persistent rant, but there isn't anything to it, nothing.
A pretty standard technique of "solving a problem" is to break it down into what you think will be components, possibly more fundamental components, but you don't know when you start out on notoriously difficult problem. Your initial attempt might be to describe it in terms terms of those components, and maybe you succeed, or maybe you learn of something a bit more fundamental.
In some ways, when you come upon a climbing "problem" you haven't seen before, you parse into what you know in your bag of tricks and techniques. A difficult enough problem might resist your initial attempts, but you work out a sequence, and that might involve doing something quite new... rarely, it might involve inventing a new type of move. But the climb can be broken down into it's pieces.
We use this "reductionism" to help us train for particular climbs... famously, for instance, the invention of the campus board to provide training for Güllich's Action Directe. We not only use the campus board for training, but also understand that some climbs we'd like to do may require specific training to accomplish.
In science, we try to break a problem down into it's parts... we learn this in the curriculum by the problems we're given to solve for homework and on tests. Later, when we are working on open problems, ones that have not been solved, we use the same technique, but we might not know what parts are important, we propose a particular way to parse the experimental observations to see if we can explain the experiment and predict the outcome of future experiments.
Often, before we find a solution (and that process might take years, or decades, or even longer) we cannot always describe what the actual solution is, we don't have the language for it.
Largo's famous claim that there is not "matter" rests on the lack of language describing matter at the atomic level and below. At some point things get very confusing, because much of what is part of the explanation is an open question. But more importantly, the word we used: "matter," in the common sense was coined in c. 1400, this is long before our modern ideas of atoms or quantum mechanics.
Scientific appropriation of the word assigns attributes to "matter," mostly thermodynamic ideas of state (gas, liquid, solid), composition, and all the technological properties like hardness, transparency, and on and on.
With the advent of the atomic theory, and of quantum mechanics, we have an explanation of matter in terms of its constituent parts, and fundamental interactions (quantum electrodynamics). We have "reduced" matter to it's parts.
Another very important problem that Einstein worked on was the low temperature behavior of heat capacity. Heat capacity is an attribute of material. Einstein showed how "quantum mechanics" (in the very earliest of its instantiations) could explain this behavior, along with the atomic nature of the material.
Now where is the heat capacity at the atomic level? How do the atoms know about heat capacity? Where did it go? Understanding how to explain things like heat capacity in terms of the fundamental constituents can be tricky, but it is not an indication that the explanation doesn't exist or sounds like nonsense.
How do the atoms in a solid know they are a solid? Obviously, our use of the word "solid" has to be changed to incorporate the new knowledge the "reduction" has added.
If you ask how an electron can be a point particle, that is, a particle with no physical extent, yet have mass and be a constituent of atoms (yet another level of reduction!) be "matter" you may be confusing the 13th century definition of matter with our current understanding. You might do this to do as a rhetorical device in a debate...
the answer to the electron question is that we don't know. This is not a new problem, it goes back to the discovery of the electron, and the first measurements of its size, and the subsequent measurements and theory which are precise to one part per trillion, assuming the electron has no physical extent.
We know this cannot be the case, and so we expect to find the reason for this apparent contradiction. But we aren't there yet, we cannot describe the resolution of this puzzle. If you feel that this puzzle is essential to the claim that there is "matter" then you might also claim that the absence of the solution indicates that the whole process for solving the puzzle is bankrupt and fraudulent, that the technique doesn't work and the problem can't be solved.
Making such a claim is easy, supporting it is not. While Largo continues to make this claim, he has no way of "proving" that claim, which essentially defines the limits of reductionism as a technique to understand and explain physical phenomena.
But perhaps he does have an argument... so far he hasn't provided it.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jan 17, 2016 - 12:49am PT
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What understanding have you ever arrived at which is an indirect experience? Everything you know or will ever know is a direct experience. What kind of cognitive process are you proposing is NOT experiential, or that transpires outside of your subjective bubble?
Interesting the Feyerabend considers the role of "experience" in a paper Science without experience
"In the present note I shall ask whether the empirical hypothesis is correct, i.e. whether experience can be regarded as a true source and foundation (testing ground) of knowledge."
It is very short... I'll post more later, but it certainly addresses Largo's question... and it's a philosophy paper with some good arguments (rather than the standard Largo rant with vague handwaving to his team of 18th century philosophers which he never cites, or quotes...).
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Bushman
Social climber
Elk Grove, California
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Jan 17, 2016 - 06:32am PT
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God Yam
Don't you think it's fairly odd,
That tubers sacrifice their bod,
But n'er do ever get the nod,
For their relationship to god?
Though some are deadly,
Taste like rot,
Some quite delicious,
Some do not,
The sweet potato,
Served up hot,
Though just a root,
It hits the spot,
So spare the rod and spoil the child,
Of carbohydrate you'll beguiled,
Served up spicy, sweet, or mild,
A veggie can be something wild,
This monocot,
And holy lamb,
If you don't like it,
Eat some spam,
But never curse them,
You'll be damned,
To hear them cry out,
"God I Yam!"
At holidays I would abide,
A sweet potato on the side,
It's sanctity I must confide,
A question only you decide.
-bushman
01/17/2016
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Jan 17, 2016 - 06:53am PT
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If you feel that this puzzle is essential to the claim that there is "matter" then you might also claim that the absence of the solution indicates that the whole process for solving the puzzle is bankrupt and fraudulent, that the technique doesn't work and the problem can't be solved.
Indeed. It seems, however, a dogmatic and hollow argument and position.
Yet, one could instead relish the puzzle as part of the process of coming to know a thing. This is the wonder of a child combined with a developed critical mind. Being clear and unflinching about what is known and what is not known, to constantly be excited to find what you have believed to be true has been wrong based upon newer and more precise evidence and to be daring enough to constantly change your models of understanding based upon evidence is the epitome of personal intellectual honesty and integrity.
Willingness to be OK with what is yet unknown is a core aspect of the integrity of the process.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Jan 17, 2016 - 11:23am PT
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Moose, why are the Polish so Catholic when most of northern Europe is Protestant?
Seems like the people of Poland are coming to the realization that they are more than just a polock? That individually they are responsible within theirselves for their deeds. For so long they've been under the Russian rule and mere puppets of the strong arm of the law. With the advent of the Wokers Party they have atleast taken control of their own strings. These types of governments require devout obedience to the men incharge of the one party system. Without an opposing second party, or even opposing ideas, the sheeple of Poland have herded into a corral where discipline and obedience can only be obtained through forced action. Compared to countries that allow choice, the people are able to choose which obedience to discipline they will cherish for a better society through love.
The Polish are used to being told what to do my a man so the Catholic Church will prolly work well for them..
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Jan 17, 2016 - 12:27pm PT
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Well I didn't say anything much different than wiki says.
They don't show much history before the 20th century. What would you say were their cultural qualities apart from Russia's? And weren't they both from the same original decent? If so, Have any idea what caused their divergence?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jan 17, 2016 - 12:57pm PT
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sycorax deleted a rousing cheer for the allegory of Plato's cave, and the relevance to modern times... but I thought that it raises an interesting question regarding "truth" as the shadows on the cave wall are what we can see, according to the allegory, of The Truth.
But now some 2500 years later, I wonder if this hasn't been thought through so much as the basic premise of the allegory, that there is a Truth to be shadowed, is invalid. Certainly as so rendered, the allegory fails.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Jan 17, 2016 - 01:01pm PT
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Thanks moose. Usually I'm the only one jumping on blue for his anti-Catholic prejudice.
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Norton
Social climber
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Jan 17, 2016 - 01:08pm PT
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Pope Francis talks a lot, but there is no real change within the Catholic Church.
yep
and they continue to suffer and die of AIDS in Africa because he forbids using condoms
religion....good or bad.....gee.....tough call
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Jan 17, 2016 - 01:28pm PT
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Thanks Mooseberg,
I was stuck in the "governments of Poland". Wondering why it didn't go back very far. Duh.
Well I like their history much better now. They started out as a Christian nation and isn't it interesting the people who flocked there for that reason. Even Jews. And isn't even more interesting how we this same thing happen throughout history and all around the world to only try and be disrupted by paganism?
Gotta get back and learn some more!
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Jan 17, 2016 - 03:44pm PT
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I'm the only one jumping on blue for his anti-Catholic prejudice.
Really Jan, I don't mind. Remember I was raised by the streets. Playin street ball with the "Brothers" always meant physical abuse was a given. If you don't posses the muscle to out muscle'em, you gotta talk smack to get in their heads to make them show ya the money, so to speak.
I just hope you understand my prejudice of the Catholic Church stems from the bible. Christ does not require a pope, or a confession booth, or roserybeads, or a dead guy hanging on a cross. Jesus ain't dead for cryin out load. While I do believe there are Catholics that have a spiritual relationship with God. There are many that get lost, or never knew a spiritual relationship in the first place because they weren't able to get past their works.
What I'm saying is you don't need a pope to know what God has instore for your life.
So there's that..
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 17, 2016 - 05:41pm PT
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BLUEBLOCR -- "or a dead guy hanging on a cross."
You're a gross materialist and have no real clue of Christ ......
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Jan 17, 2016 - 06:15pm PT
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Jan, Here you go...
Below are some interesting articles that you can find on PubMed.com.
If you find something below you want to check out you can cut and paste it into the search section on PubMed.com to pull up the abstract. A lot of times you will have to pay for the whole article. Usually it will come in a PDF format.
Heart Rate Variability
(Lindmark S, 2005) Dysregulation of the autonomic nervous system can be a link between visceral adiposity and insulin resistance
(Sun FL, 1992) Effects of various qigong breathing pattern on variability of heart rate
(Staud R, 2008) Heart rate variability as a biomarker of fibromyalgia syndrome
(Patra S, 2010) Heart rate variability during sleep following the practice of cyclic meditation and supine rest
(Sztajzel J, 2004) Heart rate variability: a noninvasive electrocardiographic method to measure the autonomic nervous system
(Guiraud T, 2013) High-intensity interval exercise improves vagal tone and decreases arrhythmias in chronic heart failure
(Khattab K, 2007) Iyengar yoga increases cardiac parasympathetic nervous modulation among healthy yoga practitioners
(Weber CS, 2010) Low vagal tone is associated with impaired post stress recovery of cardiovascular, endocrine, and immune markers
(Lerma C, 2011) Nocturnal heart rate variability parameters as potential fibromyalgia biomarker: correlation with symptoms severity
(Kemper KJ, 2011) Non-verbal communication of compassion: measuring psychophysiologic effects
(Lee MS, 2011) Nonlinear analysis of heart rate variability during Qi therapy (external Qigong)
(Miu AC, 2009) Reduced heart rate variability and vagal tone in anxiety: trait versus state, and the effects of autogenic training
(Pellissier S, 2014) Relationship between vagal tone, cortisol, TNF-alpha, epinephrine and negative affects in Crohn's disease and irritable bowel syndrome
(Sawane MV, 2015) Resting heart rate variability after yogic training and swimming: A prospective randomized comparative trial
(McCraty R, 1995) The effects of emotions on short-term power spectrum analysis of heart rate variability
(Whited MC, 2010) The influence of forgiveness and apology on cardiovascular reactivity and recovery in response to mental stress
(Rubio A, 2014) The link between negative affect, vagal tone, and visceral sensitivity in quiescent Crohn's disease
(Harte CB, 2013) The relationship between resting heart rate variability and erectile tumescence among men with normal erectile function
(Brody S, 2003) Vaginal intercourse frequency and heart rate variability
(Shapiro D, 2007) Yoga as a Complementary Treatment of Depression: Effects of Traits and Moods on Treatment Outcome
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Jan 17, 2016 - 06:23pm PT
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You're a gross materialist and have no real clue of Christ ......
Well thanks QuacklOOn...... quess i should go buy a statue of a dude dead on a cross and start asking IT for a clue......?
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 17, 2016 - 06:53pm PT
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Christ is transcendental and so is his image.
You're no Christian.
You're a hypocrite and mock the transcendental image of Christ.
Christ never died. His image is non different from him.
Only the gross materialists make the distinction between material and spiritual of Christ.
Christ is always present.
The foolish materialists think his image and his self are different and wait for his return.
He never ever left. Otherwise you fool would never follow him.
Thus you mock him and make grievous errors in front of him.
You're no Christian ......
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