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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Mar 22, 2010 - 07:17am PT
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QUACKEN - WHERE WAS YOUR OUTRAGE WHEN THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION WAS GRINDING THE CONSTITUTION UNDER ITS HEEL ON AN ALMOST DAILY BASIS FOR EIGHT YEARS? WHAT A CHUMP.
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guyman
Trad climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Mar 22, 2010 - 11:47am PT
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Mad is right on.
Ever talk with a Euro about health experiences?
I have.
All of them are truly amazed when I tell them that I have had 3 knee surgeries and two shoulder surgeries...... and I never had to wait more than 30 days from injury to surgery, for the ones caused by injuries and some were for ELECTIVE reasons.
What really floors them, is that, most of them were done so I could still climb! - not just patch me up so I could get back to work...... The treatments and the options presented to me involved only me and my doctor.
Gasp.....
you can not get treatment like that over in Europe, at all, unless you leave and come on over to the USA and pay for it. .... just like lots of people do.
If you think this health care bill is a gud step in the right direction.... well, lets get back to this topic in like 10 years.
OK?
Now lets get prepared for the next round, adding 30 million illegal aliens to the US....that will be fun and I bet we will see lots of bi-partisan cooperation on that one.
We are all so screwed.
gk
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dirtbag
climber
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Mar 22, 2010 - 11:53am PT
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Could someone please tell me how, precisely, this will be like Europe?
Seriously.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Mar 22, 2010 - 11:56am PT
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High unemployment, something Europe is plagued with, yet we've only seen recently.
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gunsmoke
Trad climber
Clackamas, Oregon
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Mar 22, 2010 - 12:00pm PT
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Well, I did get through Madbolter's post. In theory, I agree with much of it. Personal responsibility is something that seems to be losing ground in so many aspects of American society. And yet... If you're wealthy and can afford it [medical insurance] great! if you're not should we just say the hell with them because their not smart enough to climb the rungs of success that is the American Way?
And that's where the rubber meets the rock; theory makes sense, but implementation sounds too harsh? The thing that's changed in America is that to the Founding Fathers, the implementation would have felt natural, something to be embraced. After 75 years of the New Deal, it feels strange if not wrong. Note, again, that I have not on this thread argued for or against the legislation. Rather, I have asserted two basic points 1) The just-passed health care legislation reflects a departure in thinking from that of the Founding Fathers and 2) the process by which it is was passed was wrong. MadBolter has made the case for point #1 (at least no one seems able or willing to present any evidence to the contrary). In regard to point #2, all anyone can say to refute it (apart from heckling and name calling) is to assert that Bush did it, so we should do it again. Pretty pathetic, beyond lame. You know, I about a year ago I did some research into how the Japanese could be interned as they were during WW II. The USSC found on a 6-3 ruling that their detention was constitutional. If anything in our recent history is "mind boggling" (Flouride), that is it. 8 of the 9 justices, were appointed by FDR, the man who launched us into the New Deal and the land of "positive rights" (to quote MadBolter). 6 of the 8 liberals found the detention to be permissible. There was 1 conservative on the court, appointed by the previous president. He joined the 2 liberals to find the detention unconstitutional. My point is this, when you decide that all you need is the power to do it and that the result is what's important , the process being secondary, good people (and good societies) do bad things. Wrong process is what happened with this legislation. Obama didn't have the votes to pass it following the process that Americans expect to be followed. So he tweaked the rules to force the desired result, and the only people who care are those who didn't want the bill. Those who want the bill have turned a blind eye to whether the process was right. That's what happened to over 100,000 Japanese some 68 years ago. Dem or Rep, is this how we want our government to run?
By contrast, I cannot "own" my body WITHOUT "living in it," yet I CAN "live in my body" without risking violating the negative rights of others! My mere "living" does not risk infringing upon the NEGATIVE rights of others.
MadBolter: wrong! The EPA has determined that when you breathe you pollute. Your carbon footprint affects my negative rights.
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guyman
Trad climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Mar 22, 2010 - 12:02pm PT
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Dirt.... it will be pretty eazy for you to tell when we "get there".
some young doc, working for low pay, who owes the gov tons of $$$$ cause the gov paid for their education. (they slipped that one into the bill at the last second)..... will be looking at you and they will tell you.
"Mr. Dirt your knee works just fine, you just keep taking the asprin and if things don't improve for you by our next bi-annual checkup, we will see about getting you some advil...... "
Just think about that one.
and please point out any "success stories" that the government, any government, has had with socialism?
gk
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dirtbag
climber
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Mar 22, 2010 - 12:05pm PT
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Thanks Chaz, Guyman and Fatty, I appreciate your answers.
But here's the thing :
You have to buy insurance from private companies. How is that like Euro socialism? Sure doesn't sound like socialism to me.
Increased regulation, yes. Socialism, no.
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dirtbag
climber
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Mar 22, 2010 - 12:07pm PT
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Until you solve the $6 band aid, everyone gets every new drug, cure ED, save everyone from aids/lupus/?, sue anyone for the smallest unintentional mistake mentality, health care costs will explode and giving more people more access will just explode the costs.
Actually, one thing will likely be solved by this: the death spiral of costs caused by having uninsured healthy folks not buying into the healthcare pool. California had that problem very recently with blue cross raising rates, where the insured saw their rates skyrocket because healthy folks opted out of getting covered.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Mar 22, 2010 - 12:10pm PT
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the process by which it [the health-care bill] is was passed was wrong. It will be interesting to see whether there is a significant legal/constitutional challenge to the legislation and if so what the Supreme Court does. There are undoubtedly Republicans and right-wingers who are considering such a challenge, but it's not likely to do much for their electability. They can't count on their friends on the Supreme Court to decide in their favour - they pulled it off in 2000, but a repeat isn't guaranteed. The Supreme Court would, whatever else, be reluctant to interfere with the internal processes of the senate or house. The legislation is ultimately a matter of social and economic policy, that is mostly for the legislative bodies rather than judiciary to determine. Although the court now as in the past shows little reluctance in interfering in such things, and making law itself.
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gunsmoke
Trad climber
Clackamas, Oregon
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Mar 22, 2010 - 12:11pm PT
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Increased regulation, yes. Socialism, no.
FDR headed us down a new path. Yesterday was a step, one of the biggest steps, in that new direction. It was not the end, but a part of a journey. If the plan is to have the government run health care under a single payer system that offers care to everyone within our borders (one thing we know is that Obama, Reid, and Pelosi favor just that), yesterday got us about half-way there.
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apogee
climber
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Mar 22, 2010 - 12:31pm PT
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"Could someone please tell me how, precisely, this will be like Europe?"
"Until you solve the $6 band aid, everyone gets every new drug, cure ED, save everyone from aids/lupus/?, sue anyone for the smallest unintentional mistake mentality, health care costs will explode and giving more people more access will just explode the costs."
Ah, yes, the old GOP standby argument: The Slippery Slope. The SS argument is an outgrowth of the larger 'fearmongerer' view of the world, that if one takes a step in a new direction, that an inexorable, irrestible, gravitational pull will suck you into a black hole of nothingness.
I'm afraid. Be very afraid.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Mar 22, 2010 - 12:35pm PT
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You sure bought into The President's fear-mongering on this one.
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jstan
climber
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Mar 22, 2010 - 12:55pm PT
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Very interesting MB1.
But a couple of questions about the function of insurance. As I understand it people buy insurance so that their experience may not be too different from the average experience. As you say, if you have enough money, you can self-insure. But in our medical system, at least as of yesterday morning, fairly routine hospital stays can cost in the hundreds of thousands of dollars - the reason for this does not matter for the point here. Few people can afford unplanned expenditures of this magnitude, even if they are necessary if one is to continue living.
So we buy insurance. Now as I understand negative and positive rights, as long as we as a community are willing to drive past people dying unassisted beside the road, my health insurance does not in any way affect other persons. I am entering a business arrangement with some entity that feels confident they can make a profit by offering me a contingency payment in exchange for a recurring payment from myself, the purpose being to spread risk so that all may plan for medical costs in their budget - a worthy goal I think.
Before I get into the next step, as I see it what we have recently had is one or more of these entities violating their contracts by canceling a person's policy and removing their coverage upon submission of a claim. Payments per the contract were not made claiming some information in the initial application for coverage as not being correct. This action, curiously, usually came after submission of a claim and not before. The curious and consistent time sequence may have been a factor in summary judgments against certain of these entities.
But to my question.
Now, what happens to positive and negative rights when we decide we do not want to drive past people dying alongside the road. This is a choice. And as is always the case with choices, people get upset when they feel the choice was not left to them. When the community makes a decision that costs me money, the community (that's you or whomever else I am talking to) has taken a positive step that has injured me. Apparently I am not normal. I don't feel shooting you is a viable approach to making myself whole.
The central fact is in an entirely unplanned fashion we have said to the caregivers, "We have decided not to let people die beside the road. MAKE IT HAPPEN."
This has injured me, and many others.
Tell me how I can make myself whole. If I thought voting republican would do anything other than increase the profits gained by insurers and pharmaceutical corporations I would consider that option. But the data says pretty clearly that's an oxymoron. Perhaps even lower.
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dirtbag
climber
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Mar 22, 2010 - 12:58pm PT
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What fear mongering? A lot of people are facing catstrophes because of health insurance coverage issues. That's not fear-mongering, that's just a fact.
I'm lucky because my health insurance situation is pretty sound, I have money, and I'm in good health. So while this likely doesn't affect me all that much, I can see how it is important to millions of people.
I still don't see how this is socialism, slippery-slope argument aside.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Mar 22, 2010 - 01:05pm PT
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Tell us another story, FitTrad. Maybe about 'socialized' (i.e. single-payer) health care in say Israel? Right next door to Greece, too.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Mar 22, 2010 - 01:06pm PT
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and please point out any "success stories" that the government, any government, has had with socialism?
gk
==
US Army, US Marines, US Navy, US Airforce, US Coast Guard, US Public Health System, US Building Code system, US Federal Reserve system, US Court system, US police system, US Fire Depts, FBI, US State Dept, US Highway System, US Post Office, US Weather Service, US Social Security System, US Medicare system, US Forest Service, US Park Service, US Secret Service, US Dept of Justice, Congressional Budget Office, FAA, NOAA, Smithsonian Inst., US Park Police........
It's a really long list.......
If you want to define socialism in the true economic way, where we all involuntarily contribute, and an institution is created/run on that funding for all of us, it is pretty much how this country is run, from top to bottom.
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guyman
Trad climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Mar 22, 2010 - 01:11pm PT
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Dirt......
socialism is like this: "We will take from you, and give to others" bottom line.
I get really amused at all the "DEM vs REPUB" vile arguments. Can't you see where those are only lures, like the ones used for fishing, little fake shinny things that confuse the real issue.
We are all getting so screwed.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Mar 22, 2010 - 01:13pm PT
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Guyman: The system we have (and will have in 3 years) is literally nothing like any system in Europe. You are indeed using fake shiny things to confuse the issue.
Chaz: To fearmonger you have to instill fear about unknown threats (like Saddam giving WMD's to Al Qaeda, for instance). Obama talked about actual real life events that were actually happening in the actual world that were actually verifiable and documentable (and actually ignorable by people like yourself).
If this legislation had passed in 1994 a patient I had last spring would still be alive because he would have been able to afford his medication after he lost his job. Oh there I go fearmongering again.
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dirtbag
climber
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Mar 22, 2010 - 01:14pm PT
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Okay Guyman, who is getting taken from?
Medicare taxes will go up to about 2.5% on those making 200/250,000 per year.
If you use a tanning bed, you will be taxed 10%.
I think there are a few other increases too.
But otherwise, where is this great redistribution of wealth?
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jstan
climber
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Mar 22, 2010 - 01:17pm PT
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Insurance is socialistic. The company takes all my monthly payments and gives them( less their profit) to someone who is sick.
Why have not all the Congresspersons bemoaning socialism cancelled their health coverage under the really excellent government plan? No copays I hear plus a taxi ride to Walter Reed. The good floors on Walter Reed.
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