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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 11, 2016 - 11:17am PT
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Certainly their cognition may not reach the exalted heights that would make Paul swoon, and their often microscopic demeanor awaited for the capability to extend our vision for us to appreciate their ubiquity, but they are at work in the biosphere around us, an opportunist whose success does not seem to depend on a very elaborate "view" of the reality.
Fascinating the psychology of diminishing the human self… the vehicle for abating responsibility? The mighty mite should find a place in city parks across the western world, not as a garden pest, but placed as an equestrian statue celebrating the ambitious opportunism and genetic success to which all creatures should aspire and the necessity of a limited “view “ of reality in that effort. Quo usque tandem abutere, Ed, patientia nostra?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Jan 11, 2016 - 02:39pm PT
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There's a really interesting editorial in the New York Times titled "When Philosophy Lost Its Way". It claims that it happened when philosophy went from being a pursuit of passion open to everyone, to a secular, credentialed research specialty within modern universities.
The author remarks that at the time, (mid 19th century) philosophy was in a good position to replace religion but opted for security and triviality instead, an accusation that could probably be directed against many humanities and social science disciplines.
The result was the production of ever more subdivided and specialized knowledge rather than the previous concern, "What is the good life and how do we live it?".
Meanwhile, it strikes me that anyone asking about the good life of humans today has to take account of science, the understanding of evolution foremost, but that philosophy could regain some of its former status by again asking under changed circumstances, "What is the good life?". Given that 25% of young people are claiming to have "no religion", now would be the time.
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2016/01/11/when-philosophy-lost-its-way/?action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=opinion-c-col-left-region®ion=opinion-c-col-left-region&WT.nav=opinion-c-col-left-region
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 11, 2016 - 04:09pm PT
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Given that 25% of young people are claiming to have "no religion", now would be the time.
Their religion is "Cell Phone" and social networking.
All day .... Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
About nothing .....
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jan 11, 2016 - 08:09pm PT
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nolite attendere hoc loco Paulus
(you forgot the traditional italics, Paul).
in answer to your question, I'm guessing for as long as the Forum exists... which I take to be less than my lifetime...
but your pompousness has the size of one of those Macy's T-day parade balloons... it is just too much not to poke it with sharp sticks... it's your misfortune to be the target of these slings and arrows, alas.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Jan 11, 2016 - 08:21pm PT
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Meanwhile, it strikes me that anyone asking about the good life of humans today has to take account of science, the understanding of evolution foremost
What could you possibly mean by this?
Indubitably over the last 2000 yrs if it weren't for the New Testament being implemented into the worlds consciouness we would by no means be living with the dignity and wisdom we witness around the world today, and especially in America. With respect to "the original sin", which is basically an actknowledgement of human nature, aka the evolutionalary nature. Man since Jesus has asked for forgiveness for being an animal, and the animalistic nature that evolution affords.
Evolution predicts, the strongest will survive, while Christ said the meek shall inherit the earth. How could such an opposition continue if it were not true? There have been many opponents to this enlightenment, Hitler being one of the biggest. Seems like if evolution was stronger hitler would have won...
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Jan 11, 2016 - 08:37pm PT
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Another point from/to Paul:
Our nobility, grandeur, specialness is not (repeat not) in the purview of posterity; it is in our actions in the present. Our value has nothing to do with the future’s consideration of us, and everything to do with what we do presently, and our consideration of ourselves.
I picture an Aztec priest sending the heart of a sacrifice back to the Sun.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Jan 11, 2016 - 08:59pm PT
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^^^ see now that's well roundedness!
Guess I was wrong about Ed!?
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 11, 2016 - 09:44pm PT
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I picture an Aztec priest sending the heart of a sacrifice back to the Sun.
And I picture a scientist sending fallout into the desert after exploding the first atomic weapon and then in a display of grossly scientific pomposity declaring "I am become death the destroyer of worlds," or some such nonsense.
but your pompousness has the size of one of those Macy's T-day parade balloons... it is just too much not to poke it with sharp sticks... it's your misfortune to be the target of these slings and arrows, alas.
Ha, but your sharp sticks are so dull... good luck with that. The only pomposity here is the self righteousness and certainty of science as the final arbiter of truth.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Jan 11, 2016 - 10:56pm PT
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Blue, my point is not different from yours in spirit. Precisely because humans have behaved so badly, including in the past those calling themselves Christian, it benefits us to understand our evolution and animal nature to put attempts (not just the Christian one) to guide us to a more compassionate outlook in perspective.
I think in fact you could do this from a purely humanistic point of view also. If we continue on our present course of mindless aggression, we will destroy ourselves along with most of the planet. Therefore many of the assumptions about evolution (survival of the fittest; successful reproduction of the fittest, the strongest prevailing) are now being called into question. This leads us to ask, what might be the alternative then? I've always said, study of evolution leads directly to questions pursued by religion and philosophy. And the reverse.
Studying man's biological and social nature tells us a lot more about our not so nice behavior than any concept of original sin.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Jan 11, 2016 - 11:05pm PT
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(meant for Paul)^^^^ hey they can predict where Mars will be in 7 yrs. but even the Aztecs could do that.
The modern scientific method is something like, give everybody viagra and see what happens.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Jan 11, 2016 - 11:17pm PT
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Studying man's biological and social nature tells us a lot more about our not so nice behavior than any concept of original sin.
Respectfully, this is where we differ.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jan 11, 2016 - 11:20pm PT
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The only pomposity here is the self righteousness and certainty of science as the final arbiter of truth.
that wouldn't be me... never said such a thing...
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Jan 11, 2016 - 11:43pm PT
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^^^maybe not. But you are double 69
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Jan 12, 2016 - 09:26am PT
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Aztec priest or exultant scientist, neither would seem to be abating responsibility by diminishing the human self. Aggrandizing the human self has more of a history of creating trouble for people and other life on the planet.
Your quote needs context. Oppenheimer had read the Bhagavad Gita in the Sanskrit and was reminded of that line by the atom bomb test. Was he pompous? Not by comparison with most.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jan 12, 2016 - 09:36am PT
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Rabi thought he was a bit whacky with his sanskrit reading, however... but it is his translation of a passage that perhaps provided hope at the time of his difficult persecution. He was, no doubt, a very complicated person.
“In battle, in forest, at the precipice in the mountains,
On the dark great sea, in the midst of javelins and arrows,
In sleep, in confusion, in the depths of shame,
The good deeds a man has done before defend him.”
The Gita of J. Robert Oppenheimer
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 12, 2016 - 10:11am PT
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Aggrandizing the human self has more of a history of creating trouble for people and other life on the planet.
Not currently.
Aztec priest or exultant scientist, neither would seem to be abating responsibility by diminishing the human self.
Human beings do bad things. To say humanity is somehow no more remarkable than a mite diminishes our potential, a realization of our potential, to do good. Human intelligence is unique in this world perhaps in the universe, it demands a respect and a responsibility to the good. Mites, well they do other things.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Jan 12, 2016 - 12:02pm PT
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You realize blue, that original sin was not originally a Christian doctrine but one developed by the western saint Augustine nearly 400 years after Jesus had passed from the scene? It is not a doctrine that was ever accepted by the Eastern Orthodox churches nor by many Protestants.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Jan 12, 2016 - 01:31pm PT
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I mentioned this a hundred posts ago: the divinity of number
And that would be wisdom for the time period 500BC. I had something in mind a little more sophisticated than that.
But according to sycorax one should read the original manuscripts, so maybe there is something there that is missed in translation?
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 12, 2016 - 01:49pm PT
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And that would be wisdom for the time period 500BC. I had something in mind a little more sophisticated than that.
I was referring to the strangeness that a mathematical formula imagined by some mathematician as just that (a formula) is then discovered years later to have a very specific practical application in our understanding of the physical world, that number stands behind nature as a kind of explanation of things, that equations often have a kind of beauty and permanence. And that these equations or relationships exist in a kind of eternal state behind what appears as the natural universe. And yes it's an old Platonic notion but...
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