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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Jan 12, 2016 - 02:07pm PT
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You realize blue, that original sin was not originally a Christian doctrine but one developed by the western saint Augustine nearly 400 years after Jesus had passed from the scene? It is not a doctrine that was ever accepted by the Eastern Orthodox churches nor by many Protestants.
Original sin ( ancestral fault) is probably older than the bible. The first instance in that book is in genesis. It was certainly Hebrew doctrine.
Before that it's in Gilgamesh.
Zoroastrianism didn't believe in it.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Jan 12, 2016 - 02:13pm PT
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That's the first I've heard it's in Gilgamesh, but then many things were there first and borrowed.
Of course it's all in the interpretation. To say, everything was good in the beginning and then people screwed it up is quite different than saying that sin gets passed down more or less genetically from the supposed original man and woman.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 12, 2016 - 02:20pm PT
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It's interesting that original sin or the fall in the Garden is an explanation for the terrible state of nature: why do roses have thorns? Why do animals slaughter one another? Why does life need to feed on life? Why is there natural "evil"? God declares "I curse the ground for thy sake."
The idea that man's sin has destroyed what was a paradise in nature has a familiar ring don't you think?
I think there is a slight difference in the Orthodox interpretation of original sin from the Catholic, though the notion of the fall from grace and paradise is the same.
Byzantine Orthodox depictions of the crucifixion show the cross above the skull of Adam as atonement for the sin of Adam. The term atonement is another can of worms.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jan 12, 2016 - 02:49pm PT
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It is not a doctrine that was ever accepted by the Eastern Orthodox churches nor by many Protestants.
Jan, I'm having trouble with that statement, too. I agree with Lorenzo about its being a part of Jewish doctrine from the beginning. In addition to Exodus 3, there's Psalm 51, where David says that he was conceived sinful.
Similarly, the New Testament contains the doctrine explicitly in, e.g. Romans. The Bible didn't call the doctrine "original sin," but the doctrine is there just the same, even if not explicitly named, and dates from the earliest days of Christianity. I can't speak for the eastern Orthodox churches, with whose doctrine I am unfamiliar, but the writings of many church fathers clearly accept it. Beside, Augustine wrote about it long before the Great Schism, so it was part of the church of both the east and the west.
I also admit, though, to a great deal of ignorance about statements of faith of individual denominations or church branches, other than Armenian Evangelicals, Mennonite Brethern, Conservative Congregationals, and a few others, so I would appreciate your straightening me out.
Thanks.
John
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Jan 12, 2016 - 02:51pm PT
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Most people consider Puritanism a Protestant faith. They are the big daddies on original sin. Coupled with predestination, you were screwed.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jan 12, 2016 - 02:58pm PT
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Coupled with predestination, you were screwed.
We have no choice but to believe in free will. (I can't remember who said that, though).
I think you may be confusing the Puritans with the Calvinists, who should not be confused with the Arminians (who should not be confused with Armenians).
John
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Jan 12, 2016 - 03:09pm PT
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Puritans were Calvinists.
http://people.opposingviews.com/major-principles-puritan-theology-5532.html
When Jan said she didn't know original sin was in Gilgamesh, I did a little refresher.
The whole garden of Eden story is there, except it is the garden of the Gods. And there is an actual snake who eats the fruit from the tree of life, thus robbing man ( Gilgamesh) of the opportunity for eternal life. The 'sin' is one of opportunity, but it is passed down in the story to all man.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 12, 2016 - 03:24pm PT
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The doctrines of original sin vary slightly from Christian sect to Christian sect. But the similarities are greater than the differences. The earliest notion of the Atonement was simply a notion of debt and repayment through the sacrifice of Christ. Who is touched by original sin and who is not, however, becomes an issue, children, unborn children and so on and so you have the Catholic Limbo as a result and Catholic doctrine becomes as complex as Thomas Aquinas in these matters. Paradise stories and stories of the "Golden Age" are pretty universal, I think as an observation both of our predicament in relation to nature and our potential as human beings and the loss of what we imagine could have been.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Jan 12, 2016 - 03:24pm PT
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Thanks for inserting some humor John.
According to Wiki:
Jewish theologians are divided in regard to the cause of what is called "original sin". ..... the majority of chazalic opinions, however, do not hold Adam responsible for the sins of humanity, teaching that, in Genesis 8:21 and 6:5-8, God recognized that Adam did not willfully sin. However, Adam is recognized by some as having brought death into the world by his disobedience.] The doctrine of "inherited sin" is not found in most of mainstream Judaism. Modern Judaism generally teaches that humans are born sin-free and untainted, and choose to sin later and bring suffering to themselves. The concept of inherited sin is also not found in any real form in Islam.Some interpretations of original sin are rejected by other Christian theologies.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_sin
And according to the Orthodox Church in America
While the Orthodox Church does accord Augustine of Hippo the title “saint” and recognizes the vast number of theological works he produced, Augustine was not as well known in the Christian East. His works were not translated into Greek until the 14th century; as such, he had little or no influence on mainstream Orthodox thought until 17th century
In the Orthodox Faith, the term “original sin” refers to the “first” sin of Adam and Eve. As a result of this sin, humanity bears the “consequences” of sin, the chief of which is death. Here the word “original” may be seen as synonymous with “first.”
Imagine, if you will, that one of your close relatives was a mass murderer. He committed many serious crimes for which he was found guilty—and perhaps even admitted his guilt publicly. You, as his or her son or brother or cousin, may very well bear the consequences of his action—people may shy away from you or say, “Watch out for him—he comes from a family of mass murderers.” Your name may be tainted, or you may face some other forms of discrimination as a consequence of your relative’s sin. You, however, are not personally guilty of his or her sin.
https://oca.org/questions/teaching/st.-augustine-original-sin
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Jan 12, 2016 - 04:50pm PT
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That's probably true for modern mainstream Judaism, even the most orthodox.
But it is all post temple, and Judaism is more or less contemporary with Christianity in that respect. With the fall of Jerusalem the faith had to redefine itself.
Ancient Judaism is a bit different, including that not all parts of the bible are necessarily monotheistic. Big parts of the bible are about the fight by the priests against polytheism, and they don't alway win the battles. Archeology shows household shrines with Yahweh and his bride Ashura, for example.
Anyway, some of the older parts of the bible are the Psalms. JE has already mentioned Psalm 51, which includes:
for I was born a sinner
yes, from the moment my mother conceived me, psalm 51:8
Also
the wicked go astray from the womb, they err from their birth speaking lies."
Psalm 58:3
And from Job, perhaps the oldest written part of the bible, Job asks the question:
"What is man, that he could be pure? And he who is born of a woman, that he could be righteous?" Job 15:8
"How then can man be righteous before God? Or how can he be pure who is born of a woman?"
Job 25:4
And it's in Romans, which is certainly pre- Augustine and possibly pre destruction of the temple.
, "through one man's trespass, judgment came to all men, for by one man's disobedience all were made sinners." Romans 15:18
Paul was a Jew. I think it's disingenuous to claim that man is born a sinner, and that its ancestral, is a new concept with Augustine.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 12, 2016 - 04:54pm PT
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Original sin is so simple.
The living entity rebelled against God using it's independent free will .......
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Jan 12, 2016 - 05:36pm PT
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. . . that number stands behind nature as a kind of explanation of things, that equations often have a kind of beauty and permanence . . .
Nice paragraph, Paul.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Jan 12, 2016 - 06:37pm PT
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I have to give you credit Lorenzo, you really come up with some nice bombshells like "Yahweh and his bride Ashura". I suppose this is where the Mormons get their belief that God has a wife?
One of my favorite examples is that of Isaac who tricks Laban (one of many times) by saying that he will take all the black and spoitted sheep and Laban can have all the white ones and then as Genesis explains, Isaac ties knotted sticks and places them in the watering holes to cause more black and spotted to be born. Later on of course, witchcraft is considered a great sin.
Otherwise it seems to me we're falling into the trap of parsing words. Some people like that and others prefer a more general spirit of the scriptures. It can be argued either way. Of course my maternal ancestors come from a tradition (Quaker) which says that more important than scripture is following one's inner light. For that of course they were persecuted mightily by many different denominations of Christians. The Puritans jailed, tarred, featherd, and hung Quakers on Boston Commons.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Jan 12, 2016 - 06:54pm PT
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Small world.
I was raised Catholic and my wife was raised Lutheran. We went to a Lutheran college. We changed religion and were married in a Quaker ceremony ( in a pre-revolutionary meeting house in New Jersey) one of my ( Lutheran) religion profs sat on the facing bench with us. My wife taught at our college, then went to a UCC school, then spent the last 10 years she worked at a Catholic school, which is why we are in Portland.
Quakers don't necessarily believe the literal bible, or that it's the innerant word of God, but that doesn't mean they don't read and use the bible for guidance. Quaker beliefs are pretty free flowing, and I know well the idea of God revealing himself to the individual. But George Fox's writings are full of probably more main stream Christian dogma than modern Quakers I know.
I was just going through some of his stuff yesterday. He describes himself as Christian.
And yes, the Massachussetts bay colony executed three Quakers because they persistently kept re-entering the Colony after being expelled.
I know Quakers who describe themselves as Buddists Quakers and Jewish Quakers
I'm not quoting the passages to try and force dogma, but rather to show the ideas were there before you are giving credit.
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If you want to read a little about Yahweh's wife, there is this:
http://www.evolutionofgod.net/question_yahweh
And
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/biblianazar/esp_biblianazar_jehovah02.htm
Yahweh did not begin with Judaism, as even the bible will tell you. He was part of the Cananite pantheon ( as were Baal and El) , and Abraham learned about him from Melchizidek, King and chief priest of Jerusalem.(Genesis 14) There he is called El Elohim "God most high". In Cananite religion, he was a vengeful storm and mountain God. Echoes of that are in Psalms and descriptions of his personality in the bible.
God most high is not the same as "only God" there were others until Yahweh and El merged and Baal was subdued.
When you see passages in the bible telling you Jesus or someone else is a priest "by the order of Melchizidek" it's a claim that the priesthood supersedes the Aaronite or Levite priests.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Jan 12, 2016 - 08:22pm PT
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What's happened to this thread? It's like a theology class.
Just joking fellow sectarians!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Jan 12, 2016 - 08:27pm PT
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Lorenzo, fascinating info. Did you acquire all this by personal reading or did you take courses somewhere ?
You're right that mainstream Quakers are similar to other Protestants these days - 79% according to Wiki. My mother's family in fact entertained George Fox and William Edmondson when they visited America and later became Hicksite and Wilburite followers who at the time were thought to be conservative but are now counted most often as liberal. They would certainly make the distinction between being a Christian in the evangelical sense and being a Christian because they were followers of the teachings of Christ. No "by faith alone are you saved" theology there.
Along these lines, the Newby family and their in-laws were the ones who established the underground railroad out of North Carolina. Normally all I have to do is tell Black people that my ancestors were North Carolina Quakers and there is an instant respect and rapport. Actions speak louder than words, is a Quaker saying still remembered by those who benefitted from it.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Jan 12, 2016 - 08:30pm PT
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Well jgill, we do have to diverge from all the science on this thread and the discussions of Zen nothingness with a bit of angels on a pinhead thinking once in awhile.
I'd be interested though in hearing more about the mathematical universe and the idea of God / Ultimate Reality as a mathematician.
I find it intriguing that matter is organized around mathematical relationships that are discernable by humans.
I'll bet you and Paul could have a really interesting conversation about that.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Jan 12, 2016 - 08:50pm PT
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Lorenzo, fascinating info. Did you acquire all this by personal reading or did you take courses somewhere ?
Double majored and double minored. One of the minors was comparative religion.
I do read a lot. Only sleeping 4-5 hrs does that.
Jgill- my astronomy prof was a Jewish-Quaker.( and an Emily Dickinson scholar) Still hike with him from time to time.
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Jan 12, 2016 - 09:03pm PT
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Too much dogma?
Paul: The term atonement is another can of worms.
Indeed: “at-one-ment.”
“The Tree of Life” vs. “The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.” If you had to choose, which would you choose? (“Hey, waitaminute . . . is this one of those really stupid questions or something?”)
The Tree of Life is what life is, and it’s going on full blast, point-blank, all the time. You ARE IT. It’s living. It’s experience. It’s being right here, right now.
The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil is all of that differentiating everyone does as a part of modern life. There’s “this” and there’s “that,” and there are all of those evaluations and interpretations of “this” and “that.” Knowledge. The typical modern materialistic world view automatically inclines one, blinds one, to illusory, imaginary aspects that are “created” from the actual situation (What This Is).
As soon as one sees independent objects, makes distinctions about “this” and “that,” when one evaluates objects (good, bad, right, wrong, appropriate, etc.), then one automatically gets expelled from paradise of experiencing the perfection and completion of Reality.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jan 12, 2016 - 09:06pm PT
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Double majored and double minored. One of the minors was comparative religion.
I do read a lot. Only sleeping 4-5 hrs does that.
Lorenzo, thank you for sharing your theological journey. Mine is somewhat similar, even though we ended up in different theological and political destinations.
I grew up in a UCC church (but one whose outlook was rather more evangelical than liberal), double majored in math and economics at Berkeley (graduating 43 years ago, when double majors were rare), but also spent 2-3 hours every weekday bouldering, usually at Indian Rock, and 2-3 hours every weekday at the piano in the practice rooms in the basement of Morrison Hall, which was the main music building. The weekends, of course, were for climbing.
Perhaps that explains the rather shabby treatment I got when I applied to law school at Berkeley several years later, while I was in the Ph.D. program in economics at UCLA but got seduced by the Dark Side. Boalt Hall (the name then of Berkeley's law school) sent me a postcard dated February 23, saying "Your file is now complete. You may expect a decision in late May." The next day I received a two-sentence letter from Boalt, dated February 24, saying with minimal politeness, "Get lost. We don't want your kind!"
There was a rather large discrepancy between my SAT scores and my undergraduate GPA, and they must have concluded (correctly) that I was attracted to, and intimately familiar with, every distraction in town. I had no trouble getting into all of the other UC law schools, fortunately.
John
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