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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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I have seem beginners place a crap micro wire right next to a perfect larger nut placement and climb over it like it was a bolt. Shaking like a dogg shitting razorblades ready to peel at any moment.
LOL!!! John Long rides again!
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Shane Murphy
Big Wall climber
San Diego
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Hey just figured I would check this out and give you guys a few facts. I am the guy who placed that cam and I found out about this discussion from Omega Pacific when I was speaking with them on the phone today.
In response to the original poster of this thread "Thomas Keefer"
The guy you spoke with on the ground was NOT the guy who placed the cam. The guy on the ground definitely is new at placing gear I was there aiding him in learning the ropes (no pun intended) and to his defense he made two of the best nut placements I have ever seen with laterally opposing placement in a tricky place to put some gear, I would surely have trusted my life on them.
So here is how it goes, my buddy tried to lead the route got part of the way up and got spooked at the crux doubting his protection so he left all the gear in and came down and I went up to clean all his gear. I did not know how his placements were above me so I placed a .5 link cam in a vertical crack with pretty standard placement nothing strange about it gave it a quick pull check clipped it and moved on. I removed the rest of his gear above that link cam and down climbed back to that link cam. (it was a safe place to down climb without gear above my head) Once I got to the link cam I traversed up and to the right about 5 feet to a sport route and clipped a hangar then headed back to get my cam that is when I noticed something looked weird.
I noticed 2 of the lobes dangling from their wire inside of the crack I took a good look at it to see if I could figure out what happened but everything looked normal in terms of placement so I took it out and sent it down to my belay to take a look at it.
That is pretty much all of the information I have at this point. I spoke with Omega Pacific this morning and they were very helpful, and expressed their willingness to work with me on this issue.
I will gladly keep this forum up to date with any additional information I come by. If you have any questions please let me know.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Nightmare.
Now you don't even need to fall on a piece to break it.
I guess that's the trade off for "Greater Range"
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Healy, Climbing is 90% mental for me especialy since my body is so feffin weak these days. I see a shot of a #2 camalot that was crushed by a massive block and though mangled did not break and looks like you could still use it as a passive chock and hang a keg of beer from it no problem and that gives me a nice warm fuzzy feeling inside. I will now climb better every time I place a #2 camalot. I see shots and hear about a link cam that self destructed in low impact fall and I read story about one just falling apart for no aparent reason and now when I climb over a link cam I feel like I am soloing but with the added weight and hassel of a rope and rack.
That is not IN My OPinion a good investment in money or time. Your Mileage May Varry.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Link cams just need to be placed correctly. At the bottom of the trash can.
Just kidding. I guess some people like them. I just don't like the feel of them. You can't retract the lobes on either side independently, like a C4, for flaring cracks. For indian creek with lots of parrellel cracks where you need a lot of pieces that will fit the same size they'd be nice. With possible quality control issues I won't buy any.
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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Now you don't even need to fall on a piece to break it.
This never seemed to bug the crowd yelling that Aliens are/were perfectly safe.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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No alien has ever failed by placement alone.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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You had to actually weight the failian to get it to fail.
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Slabby D
Trad climber
B'ham WA
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Hey Shane Murphy
You wrote...
"I noticed 2 of the lobes dangling from their wire inside of the crack I took a good look at it to see if I could figure out what happened but everything looked normal in terms of placement so I took it out and sent it down to my belay to take a look at it."
1) Had the lobes fallen off the axle?
Or
2) Had the lobes broken off at one of the pivot points? i.e. actual broken bits of metal.
If (1) it sounds like the defect mentioned in the recall which can be easily spotted (if you know to look)
If (2)....that sucks.....
Thanks for any clarification.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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HMM..
How many thousands of alien placements occur every year?
Just think of a El cap season, where MOST placements are for progression.
How many failures?
The two cams are not even in the same category.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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No alien has ever failed by placement alone.
No? but didn't a guy tie his Schnauzer up with one and it fell apart when the dog pulled on it to chase a squirrel? BTW, I'm still using my aliens, but certainly not tieing up my Jack Russell's with them any more.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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I would suggest there needs to be a distinction made between a couple of startup manufacturing snafus, such as the improper riveting and peening associated with recalls, and failures of otherwise 'good' Link Cams. You shouldn't for a moment just assume the broken cams were recalled cams; the design carries inherent [materials] limitations unrelated to any recall.
That isn't saying people shouldn't buy or use Link Cams, but rather you need to understand this is a unique and novel solution to the range problem that comes both advantages and limitations. Utilize the former within the constraints of the latter and you may find Link Cams are the cat's meow; use them badly and you may decide they aren't for you.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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... But to this day OP has not addressed the underlying concern healyje voices. Not once.
Hmmm. I believe OP has addressed the recall issues, but without going to a shop and perusing a hangtag on one of them, I can't ascertain whether or not they are providing more / better recommendations for use. As Dingus notes there is nothing I can find in that regard on their website which I find a bit surprising at this point. I should think that whatever information is on the hangtags shipped with all their products should be published and available on their website as pdf's. In lieu of that I should think a web page on recommended applications of the Link Cams would be in order.
Again, I don't have 'concerns' with built-to-spec Link Cams per se - or with the inherent [materials science] limitations of their novel design - I think OP has produced the best possible implementation of that design. Instead I have concerns about any climbers who think they can treat Link Cams like a Camalot or Power Cam just because they have cams, springs, and a trigger. It just isn't the case and, as with any piece of gear, (and to butcher a Harry Callahan quote) - "A man's got to know its limitations."
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Cloudraker
Big Wall climber
BC
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I've seen 3 link-cams crap out to a non-useable state. The red and yellow cams were returned to OP and replaced, then the replaced yellow cam crapped out as well. The first and second cam issues were related to cables, and the third was a lobe connector. It was likely returned and replaced as well.
As far as I know buddy is still climbing with them. The range does make for a versatile piece but they don't last.
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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I agree that the link cam has a place I just don't think that place is on a standard rack.
Seems to pretty much sum it up.
IMO, a specialized, and apparently temperamental, widget.
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Holdplease2
Big Wall climber
Yosemite area
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The reason the lobe was dangling was possible because you had an old model with the simple pins in the trigger. Then, when your buddy lowered, the rope probably ground against the trigger/wires mechanism of the cam. That can be some weird force,...rope gets raked across the trigger wires and they come out. This results in dangling lobes, because the original pins holding the wires into the trigger were junk.
Lowering a climber off of a route with the rope running up the crack and thru the pro can make some weird forces on the trigger/stem of the cam. If I had to bet, that's where I'd put my money.
Were the lobes broken? Doesn't sound like it from the posts, unless I missed something.
-Kate.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Were the lobes broken? Doesn't sound like it from the posts, unless I missed something.
What she said. Pics would be nice as well...
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Kupandamingi
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Some supertopo semi-regulars had a link cam fail recently as well....they are very experiencec and on a famed tahoe route with obvious and good placements. I don't know if they want to go public. Perhaps they are waiting for feedback from OP before they decide if they even want to, but suffice it to say it (and other examples such the original post here) seriously impact my confidence in the link cam. From what I understand the break was very similar to the photo shown upthread.
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Shane Murphy
Big Wall climber
San Diego
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There could not have been any strange forces due to lowering on the cam as it was never weighted by me as I down climbed to remove it, plus I had a shoulder length sling attached to the cam. I have some pictures that I will post up after hearing back from Omega.
I want to just lay it down for the record that I do like and use Omega products and to date everything has been great, I look forward to their response in this matter, and so far their customer service and attention to this issue have been excellent I am thoroughly impressed. My initial plan of action was to discuss this with Omega, gather some facts then post actual information online not just speculation, but since the discussion has already been started I figured I would update everyone on the status of everything.
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