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ThomasKeefer
Trad climber
Between Tuscano and Liguria, Italia
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Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 4, 2010 - 09:11pm PT
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I don't have the pics but saw a climber with a broken cam after just weighting a purple OP link cam on the route in the gulley just left of 'Sexy Grandma' on the Old Woman in Joshua Tree (HVCG).
He was a confessed neophyte at leading on gear but happened to hear me mention that this weekend was an anniversary of when I started a while back. He then asked me "How often the gear breaks like this" - I told him that this was the first time I had seen it in person.
He is not a ST forum member but I asked him several times if he would be willing to sign up to show this info and he agreed.
Both of the out lobes on one side broke as did on of the inner lobers. The piece has no structural integrity left.
Anyone heard of the 'new' link cams breaking like this?
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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The rare times I've heard of this sort of thing with Link Cams is rumored to be when someone places them in a horizontal way (rather than in a configuration where a fall or hang would place a downward pull on the piece), where a fall basically torques the piece down out of the horizontal placement and the aluminum cams and the steel cams (the uppers) don't get along while trying very hard to maintain that horizontal placement.
Lesson: rookies need to stop placing cams (any cams) with the stems sticking straight out from the rock. Not saying that was going on here, but have seen lots of newbie style climbers who do just that.
Not much, but what I've gathered from the rare reports on this phenomenon.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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rookies need to stop placing cams (any cams) with the stems sticking straight out from the rock.
I guess I better quit climbing at the gunks then... Isn't that why we came up with flexible stems on cams anyway? A cam should not self destruct from this direction of force.
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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I suspect you know that isn't the type I was talking about Kris, but whatever. I was just trying to help with some info. Next time maybe I should have a lawyer look over the post before I submit it.
Talking about placements in vertical or near vertical cracks where the stem is sticking out perpendicular to the rock. Good example is the one the guy placed and blew up on the Left Ski Track in Josh.
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travelin_light
climber
Boulder, Colorado
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Well if my memory serves me correct there is about two places to put in gear on that whole route and they are both optional. The first option comes pretty fast in easy terrain in the gully (to the left) and it is wide-ish (#3?). It is pretty easy there and I cannot see anyone weighting gear. The first hard move come after the gully and it is protected by a bolt when you turn on to the face/slab.
The last gear option comes at the top and that is also wide and very optional as well. You would probably not be weighting gear there, it is also easy.
My take is there is not a horizontal cam placement on that whole route.
Most importantly, where there is placements you are not going to be falling - at least I hope not!
Seems weird.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Sorry Steel, I took your use of the word "horizontal" the wrong way. Yes you are correct. I almost brought up the right ski track deal in my post but didn't feel like typing that much...
No need to lawyer up just yet... :-)
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Perhaps there's something on the Omega Pacific website about how to place, and not place, Link Cams. Or maybe I should read the fine print on the tag of one that I bought recently...
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Link Cams need to be placed so the stem is in-line with the force vector anticipated during a fall and should not be allowed to move thereafter. The linkages are fragile and will likely not hold up well to the cams being rotated or having leveraging forces exerted on them, which can happen if the stem is laid over an edge, even a rounded one.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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That INMOP puts them in tha catagory of specialized gear only to be used by experts and only then in special circumstances. You really shouldnt have a piece on a standard rack that can self destruct if not placed just exactly right. YMMV
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Rock!...oopsie.
Trad climber
the pitch above you
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+1 what tradmanclimbs said. With the caveat that I don't own one and never placed one I'll offer the following.
I see this piece carried most commonly by relative newbies as the "oh shit" piece that they grab and stuff when they don't want to fiddle with getting the placement right for a cam with a smaller range. Exactly the wrong way to think about these cams if they include the "feature" of being picky about placement.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Link cams shouldn't be used in a vertical crack with their stems sticking out horizontally. Isn't that obvious, looking at the cam or the placement?
They seem to work well in many other situations, however. I've often been glad to have them on the rack.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Most gear if is not placed just right still works reasonably well and none that I know of self destructs. The link cam seems to need to be placed perfectly in verticle cracks to prevent self destruction. That INMOP is a good reason to not have them on a standard rack where a less experienced climber might place it incorectly and die. YMMV I have used them on partners racks and the ease of placement is nice. Hopeing that it weights just right under load so it does not break is not as nice ;)
Scenario. You are climbing a moderate multi pitch climb and you give a lead to your less experiences partner. They place the link cam ok in a verticle crack but forget to add a runner to it. They then snag it with their foot on the way by rotateing the stem out. Now they get pumped and fall, the link cam self destructs and they get hurt. Bad day for everyone.. The same placement rotated out with a Camalot would have most likly have held the fall with no problems.
The link cam may be nice to help lighten up a back country rack but with that convience perhaps comes a significant added risk of gear failure...
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Annother way of looking at it is that Chilloe Is a pro who understands the limitations of this gear and is not likly to stress out and ignore the finer points of useing the link cam.
Someone just starting out and putting together their first rack from whatever is on sale at REI is gaurenteed to place the Link cam incorectly. The only thing keeping them off the deck is puer luck at not falling on that piece.
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
Sacramento, CA
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I'm greatful for the Link Cam. It has saved my life more than once. I use the heck out of them and love them.
I have placed them in places where the infamous BD Cam would not fit and vice versa.
The link Cam LIKE ALL GEAR YOU OWN needs to be placed properly.
I see people place the tiny stoppers with light weight cable to protect lead falls (it is not supposed to).
I have Aliens that failed under the weight rating. I have damaged BD Cams. I have had BD cams come out as I pass them.
Face it people, its rock climbing and the environment changes by the move and it is our job to save our own lives. Fortunaetly some people are making equipment to help, NOT GUARANTEE our safety.
Anyway, I am happy the guy is okay and sorry he is out some dough.
CHeers, Jay Renneberg
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Jim E
climber
away
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Climbing is dangerous. You WILL be injured and or killed.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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The point that I am trying to make is that the link cam like micro wires is specialized gear that requires expert knowledge to use. Neither piece should bee on a beginners rack INMOP. I have never heard of a failed modern Camalot despite hundreds of thousands more of them in circulation than Link cams. For the relatively small number out there we are seeing some failures. That raises a huge red flag for me. YMMV
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
Sacramento, CA
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Tradmanclimbs:
re:Beginners should not have them
Oh please, they do not require an engineering degree to place correctly. Some basic instruction from your mentor should do. If your going to lead a rock climb you should have a clear understanding of the direction of force.... DOWN.
NOTE: the snippy tone of this post is meant in a sarcastic joking way.
Cheers
EDIT: oh yeah, and camalots can and do break. All gear can break,
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Well they are breaking for some reason? Either they are not being placed properly or they suck?
BTW. Please post up a broken modern camalot photo? I heard of an old Chiounard blowing apart due to thin lobes and wrong material but that was fixed. never heard of a modern Camalot breaking?
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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A. I am on Dial up at home. B. I am not the one claiming that camalots break.
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