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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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carbon dating was doing great until somebody thought it might be good idea to run a test on the shroud of turin. i remember time magazine, back when we subscribed to that propaganda organ, doing a big run-up hype on the test. oh, how painful is was for the clerics to part with a smidgen of their sacred relic, and how enlighted and scientific of them to go along with it. within a year afterward, when the shroud was dated to around renaissance europe, time ran all these scientific arguments about how the test could have been contaminated, etc. etc. that was too big of a sacred cow to skewer.
i generally concede the shroud business to aggressive catholics. sure, jesus passed through the shroud. people who get abducted by aliens pass through the walls of their bedrooms and into the bellies of big flying saucers. buy one, why not buy the other?
if you want to put the shroud of turin in perspective, stop by the town center of prato when you're in the vicinity of florence, italy. prato is a nice contrast to overgloried, over-the-top florence. there is a curious bit of architecture in the cathedral on prato's central square, a beautiful outdoor pulpit reminiscent of the seashell in the birth of venus. i asked about it. it seems the cathedral of prato has custody of another holy relic, the genuine, dyed-in-the-wool garter of the blessed virgin mary, come down to us through holy tradition and divine providence these two long millenia. once a year, they trot mary's rags out onto that balcony so's the faithful can look at it. exciting stuff, but not quite the draw it used to be.
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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how painful is was for the clerics to part with a smidgen of their sacred relic, and how enlighted and scientific of them to go along with it. within a year afterward, when the shroud was dated to around renaissance europe, there were all these arguments about how the test could have been contaminated, etc. etc.
 Its almost as if the clergy that provided the shroud to be dated were showing a great deal of faith when they provided the tapestry to science. They just knew that they were right and that that was the sacred cloth that was draped over jesus' body after the public cross hanging
Then of course, when science found that it was not possible for the cloth to have been around during time its was said to have been, well then, that's when they decide to put their faith in their lord and shun science for ever…. to their own demise.
Just like with all faith that walks beside you on the beach, when you look back you find that you have been walking alone the whole time, imagining your friend talking with you, when in reality, you were always alone and didn't really need any of the mind-play.
There is no god, check out what Hubble has come back with for proof
and proven to Not have anything to do with the Real Jesus
If there ever was one
they trot mary's rags out onto that balcony so's the faithful can look at it. exciting stuff, but not quite the draw it used to be.
That is some funny shit!! I never knew that… As if mary thought to herself "This belt is more sacred than all the rest, I'll hang on to them forever, handing them down to my son (thought he was killed) who will be sure to keep them sacred eventually for them to be viewed by strangers in Italy, miles away from where I originally lived"… yeah… that sound plausible…
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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I haven't been to church in 40 yrs. What I know of the world I learned from conversation. All these scientific theories are a big IF. If this rock has was 10ft below the surface and it has this much carbon its gotta be at least be a million yrs old. Well call it a half a million to be safe. The next rock is 20 ft. deep and twice as much carbon so it has to be twice as old.
And what about the evolution of animals. "if" somehow circumstances allowed "life" to pop out of thin air he'd be standing there goin I need a mate so I can populate. I surely dont want to go extinct. I'll pull my rib out and clone myself. Then I'll have someone to play with. (told U I was an idiot) But where would any thoughts of survival come from? It had NO brain! It would have just layed there and wiggled and died of starvation.
How could anyone have blind faith in any of those madeup "if" scenarios
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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aside to ed: how many dimensions do you, pardon the term, believe in? 3? 4? 5? 10? 11? even more? seems like a pretty important question
the interesting question is what determines the dimensions of the universe?
if you ask me, I would say the universe has infinite dimensions, which in a weird way connects to a zero dimensional universe... one is at the high temperature limit, the other at the low temperature limit.
as the universe "cools" (mostly by expansion) the dimensionality "reduces," so for the most part, we appear to live in a 3+1 dimensional universe, but there may be places where higher dimensionality exists even in this universe, where energy densities are high enough
the idea of dimension is probably better approached by process, however, for instance, how would you describe the physical process of making a measurement of length, or of time, or anything else? taking a quantum mechanical point of view, measuring distance you "translate" a state from one point to another.. interestingly, the translation operator on that state is the momentum operator. The properties of 3 space are tied up in the properties of the momentum operator...
now you have to generalize the idea of operations on states into dimensions... for time it is the energy operator, etc... these operations form an algebra, and that algebra can be described as a topology
so what are all the operators?
some are not apparent at the "temperature" we find ourselves at... that's why we go to accelerators and bang electrons, positrons, protons, etc, together... those "high energy" interactions uncover the operators on the quantum systems that describe what matter is built out of, and how those bits interact. And in the context of what I wrote above, those operators describe the topology of the universe.
as the "temperature" increases, the probability that a state can evolve into any other state increases, and in some ways, that causes the dimensionality of the universe to go up... the question is what limits the dimensionality? the maximum "temperature" we'd estimate is the Planck mass of the universe, and there may be limits to the "natural" number of operators, certainly the state of the universe is identical to the vacuum state, which sets a minimum temperature (can't be zero).
that's some of the thinking that goes into the question... at least as I have been thinking about it...
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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here's a relevant obit. in the NYTimes today:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/09/education/gabriel-vahanian-85-death-of-god-theologian-dies.html
'In “Wait Without Idols,” Mr. Vahanian identified the origin of the problem facing “Death of God” theologians as he saw it:
“It is easier to understand oneself without God than with God. The dilemma of Christianity is that it taught man how to be responsible for his actions in this world, and for this world itself. Now man has declared God not responsible and not relevant to human self-knowledge. The existence of God, no longer questioned, has become useless to man’s predicament and its resolution.”
“This, then, is the irony of the cultural tradition of Christianity: it has bequeathed us the idea of the death of God.”'
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Thanks
So what's ur excuse?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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BLUBLOCR said:
And what about the evolution of animals. "if" somehow circumstances allowed "life" to pop out of thin air he'd be standing there goin I need a mate so I can populate. I surely dont want to go extinct. I'll pull my rib out and clone myself. Then I'll have someone to play with. (told U I was an idiot) But where would any thoughts of survival come from? It had NO brain! It would have just layed there and wiggled and died of starvation.
How could anyone have blind faith in any of those madeup "if" scenarios
Blu, when you said pretty much that same thing yesterday, I just took you for a troll.
You know, the kind of troll that says something SO obviously uninformed and shockingly factually ignorant that is posted purely to poke fun at the trolls own stupidity.
BUT, that makes twice now you have posted such language. it is now clear to everyone that you are not a troll, but one of a certain block of the population that is truly clueless
Your above words are similar to someone saying over and over that 2 plus 2 is 5.
You completely deny "science" and the rigorous proofs of "evolution"
You must have failed basic high school biology.
Your lack of even the most elementary science education is shocking, for an adult.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Do you feel better about yourself now Norton?
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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"As the universe cools by expansion the demensionality reduces"
Yea, kinda like cement ! It's a negatively charged, xtra dry mass that when water is added. There is an explosion of action to get back to some sorta equalibreum. Thus heating -expanding. Until charges equal out and cool. Where the dimension is found smaller.
"I swear that slab I just pored was 3/8" bigger when I started!"
This coincides my theory of the world was once a much smaller globe. (that's why all the continents look as though they would fit together). Then God called on Noah to build an Ark. Then God directed certain pairs of the living creatures aboard. And God did comence it to rain
40 days. And He added water to the earth. And it heated and expanded. Now it's gettin smaller.
IMO
BB
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Then God called on Noah to build an Ark. Then God directed certain pairs of the living creatures aboard. And God did comence it to rain
40 days
yeah Studly
especially after reading this
Blu is free to post his opinions, and so are you and I
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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i appreciate that response, ed. gonna take awhile to wrap my brains around it.
the interesting thing about the god/no god debate is that everyone, on either side, seems to have a pretty sure idea about what god might be. isn't that kinda hard for christians, who in their next breath tell us god is way beyond the possibilities of human comprehension? and what about atheists, who seem to know all about something that doesn't exist? i'll bet that if both sides could set aside the existence question in a short truce, they might at least discover some surprising agreement as to what god isn't.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Ur Right!
"U must have failed basic HS biology ..."
That was my last period of the day, and I left at lunch to go get stoned and shred som pools!
I think ur education on evilution is your "belief" and U put way to much faith in it...
I don't see any proof!
And at least my mind is still open enough to keep on learning.
IMO
BB
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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And still there is a difference between shaving and cutting your head straight off...
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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I think ur education on evilution is your "belief" and U put way to much faith in it...
I don't see any proof!
yeah, ok
start by retaking grade school basic spelling
and then maybe a high school "critical thinking skills" class
you just don't see any "proof" of "evilution"?
start by reaching behind you and feeling the remains of your prehensile tail, you know that short little bone in the middle of your butt that serves no purpose "any more"
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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TB,
It's easy for Christians to say who God is:
The Lord is my shepard;
I shall not want.
He makeith me to lie down in green pastures;
He leads me beside the still waters.
He restores my soul;
He leads me in the paths of righteousness
For His names sake.
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death,
I will fear no evil;
For You ARE with me;
Your rod and Your staff, they comefort me.
You prepare a table before me
in the presence of my enemies;
You anoint my head with oil;
My cup runs over.
Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me
All the days of my life;
And I will dwell in the house of the Lord
Forever.
Amen.
BB
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splitter
Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Norton -- ...that serves no purpose anymore.
Not so, the coccyx does have several functions.
I do have a science/med background and recall from my neuroanatomy & cadaver dissecting days of being fascinated by the long strands which extend from the coccyx. I must say that they resembles a horses tail hairs, but they are not hair (at close inspection) but rather strands of fibrous tissues (filum terminate) which gives longitudinal support to the spinal cord. Plus (in a nutshell) there are nerves, tendons & muscles attached to it (coccyx) eg. glut muscles, sphincter muscles, etc.!
Many biologist used to consider the coccyx a vestigial organ, but current opinions in biology have changed and it is now generally accepted that there are no true vestigial organs.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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K, don't be sad. My brain is open now! I find some of the things u'all say are hard to except. (if it goes against the bible)because I am so confident in the relationship with my creator, I fully trust His Word. I have read Darwin's origin book, YAWWN ! But I do want to know what U believe about it. So it will help me more understand U.
That's Great! U were handed the Bible when U were a kid. I'm sure U have more education
On it than a lot of others. U could be the smartest person in the world but it wouldn't get U everlasting life. God said U must go to Him with a contrite heart in order for U to see the Kingdom of Heaven.
IMO
BB
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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good point!
No doubt Blu will consider this correction to be proof that there is no proof of human evolution
case closed
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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I put my face in the dirt when I approach the Lord.
And He lifts me up, and dusts me off!
Would u do that for me?
Questioning and hoping yes! I question everything,
And I'm hoping for your salvation!
Guessing? I don't believe in guessing or luck!
Jus Sayin
BB
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