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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 20, 2010 - 10:42pm PT
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Largo: Ok, I quess I'll take the lack of response as a 'sign' this is actually a religious discussion in a philosophy wrapper.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 20, 2010 - 10:55pm PT
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Philosophy and religion are often in bed together. This goes back centuries. That they are explains a lot (much explanatory power) and the realization is a real eye opener as to why philosophy (academic philosophy) hasn't been more productive in the last two hundred years. In regard to productivity, there's no comparison between philosophy and engineering.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 20, 2010 - 11:12pm PT
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HFCs: I can keep religion, science, and philosophy separate. I just think Largo is trying to have a discussion on religion without saying as much.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jun 20, 2010 - 11:19pm PT
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perception of beauty is an evolved function. (Again, designed by evolution for attraction.)
Can you please provide a plausible explanation of how the emotional reaction to the three photos (or any of Jody's or Karl Baba's work, a fine piece of music, or classic painting as another examples) fulfill any evolutionary function?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 20, 2010 - 11:42pm PT
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TGT wrote-
"Can you please provide a plausible explanation of how the emotional reaction ... fulfill any evolutionary function?
Yeah, from yet another perspective: the "emotional reactions" relating to beauty keep us engaged in life, they keep us coming back time and again. Damn effective, too, don't you think. I continue to be engaged day by day.
In different terms, Paul's remark:
"Human beings take delight in their senses and the “pleasing of their senses.”
The beauties of the world, or of life, are one more reason to get up and going in the morning. So, too, the day to day or hour to hour "pleasing" of the senses. In different terms, they're motives. Darn effective.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Jun 20, 2010 - 11:43pm PT
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”Jennie: glad you recognize the elitist instinct of the human race. if you look further, i think you'll recognize it all over the natural world as well. it has to do with survival. now look at the development of the jewish myth, and the frosting jesus puts on that cake. elitism every inch of the way: god's chosen people, always winning out over their enemies (with a few embarrassing lapses), jesus "saving" only those willing to ride his coattails. you can't get away from it.”
Tony,
Yes, perhaps an egalitarian society of equals is dream world stuff. And perhaps my mind has little understanding of human nature and human history.
But doesn’t hard elitism “fly in the face “of “natural selection”? (At least in regard to the intelligentsia, the creative and the proponents of culture?)
Such people, the thinkers, the innovative, often become targets of the ruling elite (as well as the masses).
Certainly, that class of individuals found Nazi and Marxist totalitarianism rather harsh and confining, if not deadly.
Marx advocated an egalitarian state but communism, as conceptualized by Marx, has never occurred. Why? …because of elitism of the very expounders of communist philosophy. The “ just society” envisioned by Marx failed because people who typically succeed in climbing to the top of military force usually crave power…and the power mongers, not the wise, succeeded in seizing it.
(As in all elitist society, the power, wealth and economy of communist USSR was made to serve the power elite, at the expense of the general population. Like in capitalist society, with elitism comes selfishness and corruption, and with corruption comes routine institutional and economic inefficiency and a host of social problems.)
Yes, we can conclude that elitism is inborn into the human race….but if indeed instinctual it may have become a serious limiting factor in forwarding, elevating and ensuring survival of the race.
”btw, where did that quote about old norse mythology come from?
The quote is from Tom Shippey, TOLKIEN AND ICELAND: THE PHILOLOGY OF ENVY…I found it following Ander’s "Virtuous Pagan" link.
http://www2.hi.is/Apps/WebObjects/HI.woa/wa/dp?detail=1004508&name=nordals_en_greinar_og_erindi
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jun 20, 2010 - 11:44pm PT
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Why?
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Jingy
Social climber
Nowhere
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Jun 21, 2010 - 12:32am PT
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I don't know....
I mean...
It goes without saying...
oh... and they are weak minded... (very closed minded.. but weak)
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Jun 21, 2010 - 01:15am PT
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Hi Dr.F aka Craig, my friend and a really good climber. I been thinking 'bout yo lately and talking to my best friend about you.
First, TGT is the real deal, great mind and intellect so don't diss my Bro. Oh yeah, and a great climbing partner....:D
That said, I was thinking today about how you and the Bird mon ..... no not Bridwell but the other one here on ST......both remarked that years ago God had let you down so you no longer believed he was for real or a real entitey that had love and involvement in the life of humanoides here on the planet.
That happened to me too when I was @ 18 searching and struggling for answers to all the questions a thinking, feeling person has. I came to a mind crisis and yelled out to God, "if you are for real talk to me, show me you, for crying out loud DO something." I had hit a low point, I didn't really want to live. Life was so Dang painful and lonely. It was late at night and I laid there and listened and no God talked to me. No God let me know he was for real. So I decided after that One night that I would jess do it my way.
Fast forward 5 years. Yeah, I did it my way and tried plans A-Z. All I did was become less and less of what my heart and soul tugged at me to be. Finally after the last of my plans failed I gave up. But when I gave up my best Friend was there to meet me. You can live life on your own, or you can really live life. lynnie
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 21, 2010 - 01:30am PT
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Jennie deserves a gold medal for her patience, civility, and tolerance. Even if it might embarrass her. I haven't actually met her, and perhaps her real-life persona is quite different. But her posts on ST, and what those who know her say, speak volumes. The noisy religious types who pester us should take a lesson from Jennie in civility, and the importance of good works as opposed to preaching.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 21, 2010 - 02:48am PT
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fructo, i think you were in on the discussion back up the thread when that fellow told about his sister's lacerated tongue and how it was healed by the fervent prayers of her loved ones during the state of emergency. this fellow was not making it up. i don't share his interpretation of it, but such things happen and they're not unusual. it confirmed his religious faith. for me, it confirms my interest in the paranormal. such things are a threat only to reductionist belief.
largo, we've got klimmer, karl and brokedownclimber all with some inkling of what david ray griffin and i talk about. personality disorders? maybe you and fructose will at least agree on that.
you have a good point about the keeping of secrets. i felt that way too at first, and i almost said i can't argue with that aspect of it, but then karl brought up operation northwoods, which is now a matter of public record. you've got some homework to do.
dr. F, i've been avoiding that republican thread. i like the other things we discuss here.
hey, paul roehl, nice to see you lighten up a little.
tgt hiked mt. baldy. i was up there too a couple weeks ago, falls full, lots of western wallflower. interesting take on things, fellow. i look at evolution as the source of what you call imperfection--basically the competitive and self-interested origins we have in nature. your passion for perfection i see as a residue of the christian way of thinking, which none of us who grew up in america, at least perhaps before 1970, can really escape entirely. i see the obsession with perfection as a bit of a flaw in itself. i think that beauty and truth, as i've posted here several times, are the real basic principles. the notion of god or gods, while seemingly universal in our mythic heritage, never seems to create much consensus--everyone has a particular take on it, and they never seem to converge. but beauty is an arrestingly obvious and reassuring thing, telling us somehow that all is well, "deep down things," as hopkins put it. as fructose says, this is a flower of evolution, and as he further posts, even our sexuality, which of course is a development of evolution.
btw, fructose, is that your daughter? when i look at such pictures, my wife gets mad, not because of the jollies i get, but because the men never take their clothes off too.
jennie you know enough about history if you can see how idealistic schemes are scuttled by human nature. your egalitarian ideal would be too, if you put it in a manifesto and got some important countries to base their systems on it. i don't see any shortcuts to utopia. the long road involves becoming aware of what's going on. thanks for the tolkein link--will check that.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 21, 2010 - 08:35am PT
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one other little fantasy for you here, fructo. i wouldn't worry too much about the old gene pool and pruning away the dna detritus. you see, nature takes care of that automatically, as it has done for the past 3 billion years or so. you're suffering from species-specific self-interest, an understandable thing, of course, but, face it, the human race has certain built-in weaknesses, among them an overabundance of noisy born-again whatevers. i'm with dr. F here. i have great faith in the ability of cockroaches to come from behind after we've extincted ourselves and most of the biosphere in a nuke-out. it will take them millions of years, but they will surely evolve into intelligent beings and probably have a better time with their history than we have had with ours. cockroaches have this built-in dance step that serves them well, and they can survive all kinds of poorly aimed stomping by others. flush 'em down the toilet and they breed in the sewers. give 'em a few million and they'll be finding fire, inventing gods, composing symphonies, writing E=mc2 on tiny blackboards, carrying it all into the future. we'll all be long gone. not to worry.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 21, 2010 - 08:52am PT
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dr. F: allow me to answer the question you're trying to back largo into a corner with.
largo is into process theology. they have a rather different take on god. he won't tell you why he believes in god, or if he believes in god. his spiritual discipline is zazen, an esoteric japanese thing, slippery as heck. i've asked him to outline a little bit why he went from zazen to the claremont school of theology and its academic protestant process theology program based on a british guy, alfred north whitehead, and he won't answer me either. maybe an angel, figurative or otherwise, walked into camp 4 one day and said largo, how'd you like to spend a few years in a seminary, no charge. largo will run off on an adventure at the drop of a hat.
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 21, 2010 - 08:53am PT
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TripL7:FWIW!
One third of the angels fell with Satan, they are not all knowing(omniscient)but they know about the past because they were there!
This is who SOME of the so called fortune tellers, psychics, etc. are communicating with! They cannot foretell the future, but they do know something about the past...as in from one second ago!!
They have NO benevolence for the human race WHATSOEVER, so...BEWARE!
Wow, dude... You have it bad.
Even judging others as "convicted" according to your narrow dogmatic interpretation of an ancient text / mythology, that even the MAJORITY of Christians (Catholics) disagree with you on... And mind you, it is THEY who cannonized the NT that you use, came up with the idea of the Trinity, etc... Hell, dude: THEY were almost the entirity of Christianity for the first 1,500 years, so your particular idea of Christianity is more of a modern construct disassociated with history, and even the real message of Jesus.
Can't answer such direct and simple questions ]as I've, or others have posed to you... All you can do is quote you text, and you have to cherry pick yo do it.
But... You can still judge others.
More RUSH:
The night is black, without a moon.
The air is thick and still.
The vigilantes gather on
The lonely torch lit hill.
Features distorted in the flickering light,
Faces are twisted and grotesque.
Silent and stern in the sweltering night,
The mob moves like demons possessed.
Quiet in conscience, calm in their right,
Confident their ways are best.
The righteous rise
With burning eyes
Of hatred and ill-will.
Madmen fed on fear and lies
To beat and burn and kill.
They say there are strangers who threaten us,
Our immigrants and infidels.
They say there is strangeness to danger us
In our theatres and bookstore shelves,
That those who know what's best for us
Must rise and save us from ourselves.
Quick to judge,
Quick to anger,
Slow to understand
Ignorance and prejudice
And fear walk hand in hand.
That you!
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 21, 2010 - 09:18am PT
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Regarding TripL7, Jan wrote:So you're telling me that every Hindu and Buddhist and practitioner of a non Hebrew religion before the birth of Jesus is saved?
If that's the case what about the current practitioners of those religions who have never been exposed to Christianity?
And if that's the case, then why are you so concerned about the non Christians on this thread?
He will not answer you, as with questions like this, he and his ilk are forced to Ignore... Ignore... Deny... Deny...
They have no other choice.
And regarding anyone who believes in a huge 9/11 conspiracy... Just ask yourself:
How many people would have been aware of it, in at least some way, in order to pull it off?
Seriously... Rigging a building for demo requires a lot of preperation of the structure and placement of explosives, especially a building like the WTCs... Now, not just the people prepping the building, but all the "civilians" who weren't even involved having to listen to jack-hammers chipping concrete, welders cutting I-Beams, right next to them, since the floors were occupied. Not to mention the planes, and passangers, as they would also need to be dealt with by people. Then we have the planners.
So... Just reasonably answer how many people you suppose it would take (give a minimum number please), then how ALL those people can have stayed quiet all this time.
C'mon... You can do it... Use your brain. Dip your toes into the waters of 'reason'. You may not be used to it, but you'll get used to it, and it's actually pretty comfortable once you get in.
Sheesh... Next thing people will be telling us there's a city sized space ship on the far side of the moon that is responsible for populating the planet.
Oh, wait...
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 21, 2010 - 09:25am PT
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worked for you, lynne, no argument. didn't work that way for me, and that seems to bother you. your take on things is made insecure by mine, and you won't be totally secure in yours unless you can get me on the same track. i suspect the real reason is that you're taking a certain risk with this "best friend there to meet me" business, which i translate as a jesus program in one form or another, whether the man appeared to you personally on top of kanchenjunga or someone like illusion dweller got you to go to his saturday night revival meeting. like i say, live and let live, believe and let believe. but christians are always getting on the cases of nonbelievers, to our everlasting irritation. you don't respect us and where we're at, the basic foundational respect human beings ought to have for each other as strangers in order to begin a productive interaction. you don't make a very good case for yourself in this way. what you have to do is put more of yourself on the table, and that will involve further risk.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 21, 2010 - 09:41am PT
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rrradam, i can only say you haven't looked into it. there were reports from wtc workers of rigging-type operations going on in the weeks preceding 9/11. at one point the towers were completely shut down for an entire weekend, strange comings and goings by alleged security and engineering personnel. you also don't know the latest technology. buildings can be rigged without jackhammers and noise, or even wires, because radio signals can be used to activate some very powerful chemicals that cut the steel. there are photos you can look at on various 9/11 websites which will show you steel beams from the wtc that have these characteristic diagonal cuts from planted thermite. the plane flights themselves are suspicious. one of them wasn't even a regularly scheduled one, and there were very unusual activities reported at the cleveland airport in the midst of the events. it's a whole web of evidence, hitched together, as john muir would say. all you have to do is start tugging on one piece. having worked on a couple of high-rise projects myself, i know how strong a big building has to be. they just cannot come down at the speeds these three buildings came down at, it just flat-out does not happen that way. random damage, such as an airliner strike would cause, would cause a random, haphazard collapse, and only a partial one, if at all. when people started looking at this critically, they started to realize that no steel frame skyscraper in the history of the world was ever destroyed by a fire to the point of collapsing, and there have been fires a lot more intense than what went on at the wtc. stay on topic, buddy. don't start talking about spaceships.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 21, 2010 - 10:02am PT
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to bring you up to speed, there are now a number of profession-specific organizations for the advancement of the truth about what happened on 9/11, personality disorders coming out of the woodwork from every point on the compass. damn cockroaches. architects and engineers for 9/11 truth, professional airplane pilots for 9/11 truth, scholars for 9/11 truth and justice, patriots (ex-military types) for 9/11 truth, medical professionals, journalists, it do go on.
i was involved with the architects and engineers group for a year, a rather nerdy crowd, but they know their facts. the process is a slow one. richard gage, the berkeley architect who got it going after hearing none other than david ray griffin on the radio, had hoped to have 1,000 registered professionals signing on to his petition for a realistic investigation by december of 2008. it took him an extra year. it's painful to push and painful to listen to, but there really is no other way.
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 21, 2010 - 10:23am PT
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Please... Just do as I asked, and post what YOU think a minimum number of people who must have know about this would be, and HOW all of them them could have kept quiet all this time.
Simple question, brutha.
And I HAVE looked into it, in depth, as I've gone over this in detail with people, and that required me looking into it. I also have an extensive background in various aspects of construction, including "failure analysis". I now work as an inspector at an operating nuclear power plant, after inspecting nukes all over the country for well over a decade.
"Truthers", like many Fundies, suffer from a profound confirmation bias, in that they focus on many things that have been accounted for, or debunked... They too "I... I... D... D...". And when asked 'reasonable' questions like I posed, ignore them too. Much of what you wrote above is an incorrect assesment of the facts, but I'm not gonna go into it, as I, and others already debunked much of it here:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2213608#2213608
Take some time... Read through that thread, then come back with specifics on what you disagree with and "WHY".
Just one example:when people started looking at this critically, they started to realize that no steel frame skyscraper in the history of the world was ever destroyed by a fire to the point of collapsing, and there have been fires a lot more intense than what went on at the wtc. No other steel frame skyscrapers have been hit by airliners either... Traveling at such significant velocity that the fire proofing came off of the beams. The intense fire, fuled by aviation fuel, burned for a while and softened the steel to the point that it could not hold the weight above it, and it collapsed, and that inertia (the floors above) was great enough to sustain the collapse all the way to the ground.
Notice the word "critical" in your quote... You need to be more critical...
That's a very common flawed scenario you posted abovem yet many keep "I... I... D... D..." the fact that the WTC's were the fitrst to steel skyscrapers to be hit by air-liners, and... , but keep using it anyway.
Remember... It will only take 1 verifiable fact to bring it all down like a house of cards, but in all these years, there hasn't been even 1.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 21, 2010 - 11:11am PT
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rrradam, i'm not going to look through your threads any more than you're going to look through mine or read all the books i've read or talk to all the experts i have questioned on this personally face-to-face. but i will read everything you have to post here. it's up to you to make it cogent.
so, dealing in the trivia you're citing here: building 7 wasn't hit by an airliner. airliners don't "knock" fireproofing off steel beams everywhere in a building. i doubt fireproofing gets knocked off at all, and big steel girders don't really need it anyway. jet fuel, which is essentially kerosene, doesn't burn hot enough to affect building steel significantly without sophisticated carburetion, as in a jet engine. the fires in the wtc were turning black, indicating oxygen depletion, as anyone would expect inside the confinements of a building. when that happens it means that the fires were getting cooler. even if the steel were weakened to the point of bending, things would sag and totter, not come down in rapid floor-by-floor blasts as could only happen with controlled floor-by-floor demolition. look at the videos. stop your own ignoring and denying.
there has been speculation about minimum numbers of people "knowing" and the role of chain of command and so forth. it can only be speculation at this point, but throughout all the investigating and controversy, there is significant secretiveness. one of the most glaring is what happened at the pentagon, the most monitored building in the world, where no clear images were released of the strike AND immediately afterward, security cam footage from a hotel and gasoline station were immediately confiscated and the contents never released. now what in the mother-f*#king hell does that tell you?
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