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deuce4
Big Wall climber
Pagosa Springs CO
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I belayed on quite a few one bolt anchors. Mostly on obscure FA's, but not always. Sometimes I was just too damn tired to place a second bolt for a belay. Then there were times like on Deuceldike where we wanted to climb faster and we placed single bolt anchors. Then there's times when the route seemed so trivial that it didn't deserve the dignity of two bolts, like on Simulcrime. On all of those, I'd be happy if some subseqent ascent put in a second bolt. There's no glory in manky bolted belays (though there is some glory in all-natural ones).
Anyway, it seems this whole discussion got started because maybe the ASCA didn't know all the past history of La Cosita, and maybe made a mistake. Big friggin' deal even if that's true--nobody's perfect. Fixed gear is time dependent and has to be replaced, like a roof on a house, after about 30 years. Glad someone is doing it.
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Ben Wah
Social climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 2, 2005 - 03:45pm PT
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Ballorama,
You complete mistake my drift. I have never nor will I ever chop bolts placed by the FA, unless it is to replace them with better, botls, preferably in the same hole. What Bachar did, though a bold statement, was the act of a jerk: I would not have removed Ray's bolts off of the Cringe. Again, I would not fuss if that became the established ethic, but I am certainly not gung-ho about it-it leaves too much room for vigilanteism-and so I espouse the First Ascent ethic. Why do you insist on misunderstanding me? Is it because you are enjoying your anonymous belligerence? I think a belay on a single 1/4 is way dicey; in those spots where the FA from cheapness or lazyness or broken-bitness only placed one, I wouldn't mind seeing a 1/2" bolt in the same hole-even a three-quarter.
Deuce, Yes the La Cosita thing is trivial, but it is one place where awareness of what some of us see as a potential problem can be taught. What if we waited until the ethic of moving anchors for convenience bcame more widespread? It would be that much harder to unseat. I perceive a problem (I mentioned this same problem in a thread about the Pharaoh's beard), and I try to talk to people about it; sadly, most do not want to listen, only flame and slander. O well.
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David
Trad climber
San Rafael, CA
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re. "and I try to talk to people about it; sadly, most do not want to listen, only flame and slander. O well. "
Are you fricking kidding me? Your original post that started this entire chain was nothing but flame and slander. Take another look. Lot's of people have wieghed in and contributed insightful comments that avoid flaming and slander. You just weren't one of them.
Where else do you get John Long, John Middendorf, Werner Braun and many other long time Yosemite climbers to contribute their thoughts on this subject? I'd say that it turned in to a very nice thread that had a lot of people listening.
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spidey
Trad climber
Berkeley/El Cerrito
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Here is a good example of a bolt being added and a belay moved, by the first ascentionist, 10 years after the first ascent. Yes, the experience was changed. For the better. The total lead bolt count went up by one, a 2 bolt belay and an ant tree belay were eliminated, another 2 bolt belay added, and the line was straightened and made more continuous. I climbed the route both before and after it was modified. Did this ruin or decrease the quality of the experience? absolutely not. Did the route change character slightly? yes. Change is not always a bad thing. It made for a better, more continuous, and more aesthetic climb. It also may have prevented a death from the tree belay failing. It definitely prevented the needless death by squashing of countless biting ants, and may have saved the life of the tree.
Cochise Stronghold, Absinthe of Mallet. A 9 pitch 5.9+ traditional route with some bolted face climbing. The route was put up in 1988, and about 10 years later the first ascentionist decided to clean the route up a bit as follows: replace some poor/aging bolts, eliminate the 2 bolt belay at the end of the 2nd pitch, and add a lead bolt so you could continue straight up and link the 2nd and 3rd pitches instead of traversing right to the anchors and then traversing back left to do pitch 3. I believe he also added a 2 bolt belay at the end of pitch 3, both to facilitate running pitches 2 and 3 together, and so you would not have to belay in a small tree with thousands of fierce biting ants.
I think this was a responsible public service, and a well-thought out positive change to an existing route. Would anyone argue that these changes should not have been made? If so, why?
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Ballaroama wrote:
"And by the way Bruce on the first ascent of Sunshine there were no single bolt belays."
Pat Timson and I did the 3rd or 4th ascent of the route and there were, indeed, only single bolt belays on top of pitch 2 and 5. There were two 1/4" bolts on top of pitch 4 and I asked Bob Harrington why there were two and he replied, "we didn't place the second one, Verne Clevenger freaked out on the 2nd ascent and placed it."
Bruce
ps - the single bolt on top of pitch 2 was particularily distressing as you are on a 20 degree slab with no way to get any other purchase so you must rely soley on that single bolt. And there is a 5.10- mantel right off the belay with no protection and I suck at mantels! Actually, it is a double mantel which just made the whole situation even more well, um, uh, um, interesting.
pps - on pitch 5 I think I had one piece of gear in for the whole 150+ foot pitch. I was out about 100 ft. looking all over the face for the belay bolt and must have been traversing all over the place for about 15-20 minutes before I found it. Luckily the pitch is only 5.9.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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As far as I can tell, the wisest thing ever said about anchors is that they must not fail. Wasn't that said by John Long in some of his books?
Someone also said keep two pieces between you and the ground.
If you believe in these aphorisms of climbing, then surely one bolt is not enough at a belay.
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Brutus of Wyde
climber
Old Climbers' Home, Oakland CA
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"Almost nobody, if not nobody, set out to make single bolt anchors."
I can think of a climb where at least two of the belays each had a single bolt, intentionally placed... The first hanging belay consisted of two #4 Big Bros set in an 8" crack, the rock the consistency of kitty litter held together with dried egg.
I set a 1/4" bolt a short distance away, in better rock.
The next belay was on a ledge, but it was apparent that the crux (first 50 feet off the ledge) would require all out small gear... Placed a bolt there, and used the first piece as our second anchor piece.
Regge Pole, East Face Dihedrals
OTOH, That route will likely never see a second ascent, if anyone has any common sense.
And on the third hand, this doesn't really contradict Karlee's statement, since I am, indeed, nobody.
Brutus
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Ben Wah
Social climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 3, 2005 - 12:04am PT
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Touche, Dave (sorry, I don't know how to make an accent over the e). I did start this thread out rather harshly; as I explained many, many posts ago, sometimes a sting is necessary to get a response. However, I believe the discussion has been beneficial; several Valley heavies have weighed in, and I for one have seen more different opinions than I could have thought existed. I think its important for the people replacing bolts to think long and hard about what exactly they do, and to realise that preservation of history is very important to some of us (This may hit some as a surprise, but most of my circle of climbing acquaintances feels exactly as I do-they just don't see the point in telling people about it). My comment about gym climbers was unnecessary to this thread-I really, really wish there were no gyms or the crowds they've brought, but this thread was really about an appeal to the ASCA to be careful in how they replace anchors and to make sure that their 'safe' bolts really are safe. This is not the first time I've run across loose nuts on bolts that would otherwise be bomber.
Adios
Ben Wah
Oh, Cochise guy: I cannot comment on Cochise ethics, since I have invested no time there and know nothing of the history, FAs, or even what the rock looks like. Sorry
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akclimber
Trad climber
Eagle River, AK
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Just got off the phone with John Salathe. He said that until you repeat his climb on the Hand at Pinnacles NM using the protection that he used back then, none of you have any balls and none of you have any right to even be discussing these issues.
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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IMHO, I would say that the ASCA does a good job in replacing mank with good stuff. I would also like to say that the old rapp stations that we used to leave with slings are much worse visually than some chains, or steel rapp anchors. I was in the desert of Utah recently where I used to leave some of that stuff and it kind of disturbed me to see the unsightly stuff. At the Park I visited, climbing is not so popular with the authorities and it appeared that almost all of the rapp stations had unsightly slings hanging. I could not help but think that the authorities would be more amenable to climbing if these stations were cleaned up with less visually intrusive rapp stations. Next time I am there I will take some chains to replace the bright but faded webbing with something better...
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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I'm just a dirtbig cheap bastard so I don't spend money on excess bolts and can't really afford a cell phone either. The cell service in Wawona is terrible anyway.
But apparently, since I've been festering in my hillbilly ignorance, there have been tremendous advances in phone technology. I don't know where ya'll even got those dead guys phone numbers! I know roaming costs extra but...?
So I find the tourist with the biggest telescope in El Cap meadow and borrow his cell phone. I called George Anderson, the FA soloist of Half Dome.
He says the bolts ya'll are using are way too small. You can't even fit your toe into the hanger's eye!
;^0
Karl
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bobh
climber
Bishop, California
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"And by the way Bruce on the first ascent of Sunshine there were no single bolt belays."
Kinda true and kinda not. There were belays with a single bolt, but there was also other gear. The one that generated a bunch of complaint was the last one, which has some peach-sized feldspar knobs nearby that you can tie off. Consensus was that this wasn't a very good anchor so it's now doubled, which apparently the FA'ers don't care about.
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Roger Breedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Hey, Werner, here the hell I am, I am. (I spent Memorial Day weekend outside and then got on a plane to work in Germany for a few weeks. It is a lazy Saturday in my hotel.)
I read Ben's opening post when he put it up and wondered what would come of it. I care very much about the 'ethics' of Yosemite climbing, but I do not think that there is only one right answer. I do believe that debating it is very important, because there is no other way to preserve our sport. I am coming late to this thread: I don’t mean this as the last word.
When Royal and Yvon were sticking their necks out and telling young guy like me how to climb, it was hard to take—‘who the hell are you guys to tell the rest of us how to climb’. But the logic of preserving the rock and of preserving the adventure and challenge of climbing was compelling. I aggressively switched to clean climbing. (I still have several pins that I owned then that have never been driven.) Everyone else pretty much switched to clean climbing, partly because it was easier to clean.
(Jim tells a story about guiding for Royal's RockCraft. I think the story goes: Royal set the belays with pins and protection with nuts and slings when he did the route in question with students. Jim took the next step and set the all the belays and protection with nuts. Royal thought Jim was irresponsible and dangerous. So even in the beginning, we were trying to sort out what made sense. Pratt was also a little slow to adopt nuts only. His telling statement was naming his route next to Royal’s “Nutcraker Suite” the “CS Concerto.” By the time that I worked for RockCraft, along with Chuck, we taught only with nuts, slings, and bolts—no pins.)
We also all debated, and some of us accepted, the need to use bolts in place of pins since they did less damage to the rocks. However, in my opinion, the way we balanced all of these competing concerns was to push the limits on boldness. All the tools were acceptable if the overall ascent upheld the best style. In a historical perspective, we came to accept bolts belays and bolts instead of pins to protect the rock if the climbing was stellar and bold. This is why some old guys get exercised about new guys adding bolts to our old leads but don't object to replacing belays with double bolts or adding rap stations. Said another way, we took the effort of finding a balance of ethics and style and pushed ourselves to achieve results that met the ideal norms of our peers. No one was perfect and we all blundered some of the time. But, when someone comes along and wants to add bolts to an existing lead to make it accessible to less talented or committed climbers, it is easy to take it personally. Nevertheless, I think it is natural to move on and let younger generations sort it out for themselves.
None of this really applies to aid routes and certainly not to hard aid routes. I have never been able to come up with a comfortable feeling with the pin scarring that occurs on hard aid; I also have no suggestions. It is arguable that many ascent parties can still get the feeling of the first ascent on naturally protected free climbs—the DNB comes to mind. But, I am guessing that by definition, the feelings of early ascents on thin aid are quickly lost. (I never did hard aid--actually all aid I did was hard for me--anything other than A0 scared the crap out of me. I was always more comfortable hanging on directly than worrying that the gremlins living in cracks were about to push my stuff out and send me to my death.)
Minerals quotes Jim about 'climbing is dangerous' in a discussion of bolting and gym climbers. I think that careful distinctions need to be made. Climbing is dangerous at some level and loses its 'climbingness' if it becomes too safe. I am sure that Jim's hard aid routes are/were dangerous because the placements were naturally bad and Jim was a master of figuring out how far to push it—he rarely fell.
But I can also say from personal experience, that Jim (with only few well known exceptions) climbed what the rock offered and within that constraint, Jim was very safety conscious. Jim also led the ethical style of the best climbers of the time, a style that said that the first ascent team had an obligation to think of the next climbers to do the route. A first ascent is a gift--it is taken only once--don't blow it off because it is easy climbing or screw it up becuase it is hard to figure out. All of us bailed on new stuff all the time that we couldn’t do in our best style. All these routes have all been done by better prepared climbers at a later date. So, on first ascents with Jim, a lot of thought went into what would make the best line. And he always climbed with a safe, but bold, attitude. On the other hand, while climbing on established routes, watch out: you might find yourself roped together free soloing on exposed rock. Rights of passage.
My personal list goes something like this:
Free climbing is a better style than aid. (Please remember that this is personal list, I am not dissing anyone.)
Ground up climbing with no previewing is better style than yo-yoing. (I have changed my mind about this given the benefits.)
Natural and clean protection is better than pins.
Pins should be fixed to avoid pin scarring.
Bolts are 'clean' compared to pins.
Belays should be bomb proof. John's comments about "Freewheeling" don't gibe with my memory...but dueling memories is a fool's game. Also, if a leader was running out the pitches, he had an obligation to protect his belayer--don't take leader falls on the anchors. I tried to make it a point of asking my belayer if they minded if I took risks on my leads--they had to try to catch me if I switched to flying lessons. Some did.
Run outs are part of climbing and should be maintained as part of the first ascent party’s statement. (Over time, as climbers change this changes also. At some point it does not matter. When that occurs is open to debate.)
Bolts should be replaced by better technology when they are worn out.
Although regrettable, rap routes are part of managing the increase in the number of people climbing (like the trails that are maintained by the NPS).
Ben has the right idea, in my opinion, to question bolt replacements that may have gone awry. He has never sounded out of line, even if he has been forceful.
Dingus has told his story about Jim stating that he didn't care about bolts on Absolutely Free before. Minerals said that he does. What this says more than anything is that asking the first ascent party about a route that they did 30+ years ago results in confusion. First ascent parties have interesting and some times insightful things to say, but eventually we all die off, and some of us get forgetful, high and mighty, uninterested, or cranky long before. (Tom Higgins--one of the best and boldest of the old school--recently told everyone that they should call him if they wanted to modify his routes. He was always cranky. Hey Tom, join in. Or at least publish your phone number.)
Last thought: When talking about climbing style or ethics, it is always the intent and the whole picture that matters. It doesn't mean anything in isolation. Debates about style and bolts should be civil. Pissing people off about matters of personal choice will never bring anyone with a heart around. Anyway, there are great, respected climbers along the different points of view. Except grid bolting on established free routes--these people will come back as donkeys when they die, even if they live a long fruitful life. (I have received several phone calls confirming that this is the case. Hey, if I can work overseas and understand English spoken every possible way, I can understand what those donkeys are trying to say. Boy, are they ever sorry.)
All the best, Roger
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akclimber
Trad climber
Eagle River, AK
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Just got off the phone with John Bachar. If you use ropes and protection, he said you all are pansies.
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Roger Breedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Hey akc...Did you ask John if he was talking about climbing or something else?
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yo
climber
NOT Fresno
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Hey, great post, Dr. Breedlove. I'm off in three days to nail the sh#t out of a couple of routes. Hopefully those crack gremlins were just a '70s thing, huh?
Two things: I absolutely hate stupid anchors and rapping off tat and I absolutely love what Ben and B-Law are arguing for. I'm not even sure I see a contradiction.
Another thing about the FA ethic. I'm working part-time in an outdoorsy shop near Zion and the other day a little known FAist of a little known wall route in the area called looking for some of his old buddies. I started pimping him for beta on this route, which features a first pitch of natural hooking to a bolt, then drilled hooks with one more bolt to the anchor. Maybe 120' of quality sandstone hooking with bad deck potential in many spots. He started in with, Yeah, I was young and lazy, I should've put more bolts in, etc. He told me I could put more bolts in to protect that pitch and in fact invited me to do so. I guess what I'm saying about the FA ethic is this: I will never put bolts on that pitch. I don't think it's even his right, as the author of a ten-year-old route, to suggest that I do so. If he wanted to go back up there and retro it, I guess I can't stop him, but I wouldn't respect the decision. I respect the route he made, how demanding it is, and how few times it's been repeated. I wouldn't aspire to that route if it got retroed. Hooking up that pitch would mean something. Clipping up it would be worthless.
Another two centavos for the fund.
Ryan
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Roger Breedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Hey Ryan:
I think that gremlins are really long lived little suckers. They probably still exist. I have heard that they are reincarnations of free solo climbers.
I have also heard that one way to protect yourself is to bang the pins in and knock them out several times. That way the gremlins have time to come check out what you are doing. If they don't like it and start pushing, you can bang back. For safety's sake, I suggest driving and banging out the pins enough times to be able to move up to the next size. Also the grooves that you leave in the crack make a nice little trail for the next party--like negative cairns. Just thoughtful advice.
Gremlins don't push on nuts; they just watch and laugh when they walk out on their own. I don't know what they think about cams.
Love, Roger
Note to self: Call gremlins to waste Yo on next ascent.
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Roger Breedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Good plan t*r. I'm flattered. I'm in Germany next week. Can I invite my wife and kids? How about the gremlins?
(Actually they come on their own. Cannot control the sucks--just make gentle suggestions and keep your distance. Like dealing with Ryan.)
Also, if I am following along okay, you have about 6 million suitors all vying for you affections. Are they dangerous?
Love and kisses, Roger
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WBraun
climber
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Thanks for your great input Roger.
I was busy as hell today, anyways good to hear your views.
Werner
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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I have also talked to first ascensionists who wished they, or I, would add bolts to their old routes. Sometimes they feel bad having created death traps, or taken quality section of stone that could have been enjoyed by many, but are instead collecting cobwebs and rotting anchors.
Sometimes they just didn't get around to finishing their route. (For example, in the middle of Galactic Hitchhiker there are a couple spicier pitches that the FA meant to add bolts to but didn't. The rest of the route above Goodrich is well protected)
I think that it's interesting that some folks like the FA ethic as long as they didn't think the route was overbolted to start with, and as long as the FA doesn't want to go add bolts years later. Yet, they haven't climbed the route themselves (and in the vast majority of cases, they never do) They say that they hope to aspire to the route someday, but, if they ever get good enough, their interest has passed to cranking 5.13 sport routes or freeing walls.
I rapped Space Babble once, coming off Kor Beck, TRing pitches, quite a few years ago. Fantastic route,one of the best in the valley. I could rip the 1 inch webbing on the anchors in half with my bare hands. Talked to Kauk, he said OK to add bolts. I never did cause I didn't want to be in the center of a shitstorm, plus I'm lazy and cheap. He said he'd think about doing it himself, but he's probably not into looking back. He just had gone up and sent the route without thinking about it's future.
So it seems to me that folks are making up fairy tales about the intentions of the first ascent party, and glorifying their deeds, but it's often not real, and then they don't step up and do the routes that they're protecting.
Since I just "Don't get" where that serious moral attitude about bolts and death routes comes from, it's easy to see that those folks don't "get" my view either. I hope we both just agree to disagree and let the general consensus of the community inform our actions. I'm all about preserving the stone, and will stick my neck out to climb clean, but I get the feeling that, for some, it's fine to hammer away at the stone, as long as you're risking your neck. They want to preserve "boldness."
I'm not advocating anything here, just communicating. I agree with Werner's remark in another thread that there is no answer, climber just don't have a common foundation. So things will probably continue to go on as they always have been. The best we can do is improve dialog and debate so that we work things out around the campfire and on the Internet, rather than with hammers.
Peace
Karl
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