Huge 8.9 quake plus tsunami - Japan

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mynameismud

climber
backseat
Apr 5, 2011 - 03:11am PT
Plant operator Tokyo Electric Power Co. said Tuesday that samples taken from seawater near one of the reactors contained 7.5 million times the legal limit for radioactive iodine on April 2. Two days later, that figure dropped to 5 million.

The Indonesian Government is now planning to build four nuclear reactors on Bangka Island - near a volatile fault line - by 2022 to boost the nation's energy supplies.

Of course no immediate threat. Like when you jump off a bridge. No immediate threat. It is what happens after the immediate moment that should get people to slow down for a bit to think things through.
hb81

climber
Apr 5, 2011 - 07:25am PT
Of course no immediate threat.

These "x-times of the legal limit" kind of figures are really starting to p*ss me off. What is the legal limit anyway? Just tell us some hard figures instead of confusing everyone.
Or the "lightly" contamined water they are relasing... what is in there and how much of it?

Either they don't know themselves or they do know and don't want to tell the public.

Gene

climber
Apr 5, 2011 - 01:13pm PT
This article is worth reading. Scary.
The problems continue to pile up at the Fukushima No. 1 nuclear plant, creating an unprecedented hazardous environment for the under-equipped front-line workers trying to bring the situation under control.

But given the potential widespread damage from the crisis, officials acknowledge that labor safety is not the top priority anymore.

"Under circumstances where there is no end to new problems faced, we cannot deny that the company is depending on the spirit of the workers," an executive of Tokyo Electric Power Co., the plant operator, said. "Unless we are able to both secure workers' safety while settling the nuclear accident, TEPCO will in the end face very serious criticism."

http://www.asahi.com/english/TKY201104040147.html
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Apr 5, 2011 - 01:49pm PT
March 31, 2011
Radioactive Iodine-131 in rainwater sample near San Francisco is 18,100% above federal drinking water standard
via Energy News
http://enenews.com/radioactive-iodine-131-in-rainwater-sample-near-san-francisco-is-18100-above-federal-drinking-water-standard

UCB Rain Water Sampling Results, University of California, Berkeley, Department of Nuclear Engineering:
http://www.nuc.berkeley.edu/RainWaterSampling

http://www.picassodreams.com/picasso_dreams/2011/03/radioactive-iodine-131-in-rainwater-sample-near-san-francisco-is-18100-above-federal-drinking-water-.html





graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Apr 5, 2011 - 02:02pm PT
is very similar to meeting some climbers you don't know tell you the climb is hard. It could be 5.3 or 5.13. In other words without some analytical results ew don't know.

It's more similar to someone telling you this who you know lies and always downplays how hard it is. So you don't know how hard it is, only that its a lot harder than he wants you to realize.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Apr 5, 2011 - 02:38pm PT
I am of the opinion that this ends Japans fishing. Thats it japan you no longer get to plunder the sea for all its worth you now get to eat whats left on your coast.

You will pay the sea back with no fishing and not until the tuna and the rest of the fish stocks you have decimated are returned to levels of sustainability will you and your boats be allowed back into the sea.

Not sure how you figure this silver.
The japanese have been pulling in harvests from the seven seas.
Their absolute favorite fish comes from the north Atlantic.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Apr 5, 2011 - 02:40pm PT
I think he means that it should end, not that it will end.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Apr 5, 2011 - 04:39pm PT
It's not just the Japanese fishermen.

Recreational Salmon fishing season opened here in Monterey Bay this past weekend. The big parking lot by the launch ramp was jam-packed with an all night party starting Friday evening with live bands; with boats by the hundreds going out an hour before first light on Saturday morning. It was like a D-day invasion for fish.

The favorite offshore fishing areas looked like a horizon-to-horizon city of fishing boats. Every move by the CA Fish and Game boats was discussed on the open VHF Channel 11; along with the news of what everyone was catching; tracking the moves of the big party boats; and chasing 'radio fish'.

The Harbor Master complained that the crowd was only one quarter of what it used to be back before the fish were nearly wiped out and fishing seasons were eliminated or severely limited.

The recreational take is a small fraction of the take by commercial fishing boats.

Not sure if there will be a commercial salmon fishing season. The California commercial salmon fishery will not open prior to May 1, 2011 and the 2011 season structure will be decided at the Pacific Fishery Management Council meeting in San Mateo, California on April 9-13.
mynameismud

climber
backseat
Apr 5, 2011 - 10:37pm PT
The document also suggests that fragments or particles of nuclear fuel from spent fuel pools above the reactors were blown “up to one mile from the units,” and that pieces of highly radioactive material fell between two units and had to be “bulldozed over,” presumably to protect workers at the site. The ejection of nuclear material, which may have occurred during one of the earlier hydrogen explosions, may indicate more extensive damage to the extremely radioactive pools than previously disclosed.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Apr 5, 2011 - 11:10pm PT
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/06/world/asia/06nuclear.html?partner=rss&emc=rss

U.S. Sees Array of New Threats at Japan’s Nuclear Plant
By JAMES GLANZ and WILLIAM J. BROAD
Published: April 5, 2011
United States government engineers sent to help with the crisis in Japan are warning that the troubled nuclear plant there is facing a wide array of fresh threats that could persist indefinitely, and that in some cases are expected to increase as a result of the very measures being taken to keep the plant stable, according to a confidential assessment prepared by the Nuclear Regulatory Commission.

Among the new threats that were cited in the assessment, dated March 26, are the mounting stresses placed on the containment structures as they fill with radioactive cooling water, making them more vulnerable to rupture in one of the aftershocks rattling the site after the earthquake and tsunami of March 11. The document also cites the possibility of explosions inside the containment structures due to the release of hydrogen and oxygen from seawater pumped into the reactors, and offers new details on how semimolten fuel rods and salt buildup are impeding the flow of fresh water meant to cool the nuclear cores.
David A. Lochbaum, a nuclear engineer who worked on the kinds of General Electric reactors used in Japan and now directs the nuclear safety project at the Union of Concerned Scientists, said that the welter of problems revealed in the document at three separate reactors made a successful outcome even more uncertain.

“I thought they were, not out of the woods, but at least at the edge of the woods,” said Mr. Lochbaum, who was not involved in preparing the document. “This paints a very different picture, and suggests that things are a lot worse. They could still have more damage in a big way if some of these things don’t work out for them.”

The steps recommended by the nuclear commission include injecting nitrogen, an inert gas, into the containment structures in an attempt to purge them of hydrogen and oxygen, which could combine to produce explosions. The document also recommends that engineers continue adding boron to cooling water to help prevent the cores from restarting the nuclear reaction, a process known as criticality.

Even so, the engineers who prepared the document do not believe that a resumption of criticality is an immediate likelihood, Neil Wilmshurst, vice president of the nuclear sector at the Electric Power Research Institute, said when contacted about the document. “I have seen no data to suggest that there is criticality ongoing,” said Mr. Wilmshurst, who was involved in the assessment.

The document was prepared for the commission’s Reactor Safety Team, which is assisting the Japanese government and the Tokyo Electric Power Company, which owns the plant. It says it is based on the “most recent available data” from numerous Japanese and American organizations, including the electric power company, the Japan Atomic Industrial Forum, the United States Department of Energy, General Electric and the Electric Power Research Institute, an independent, nonprofit group.

The assessment provides graphic new detail on the conditions of the damaged cores in reactors 1, 2 and 3. Because slumping fuel and salt from seawater that had been used as a coolant is probably blocking circulation pathways, the water flow in No. 1 “is severely restricted and likely blocked.” Inside the core itself, “there is likely no water level,” the assessment says, adding that as a result, “it is difficult to determine how much cooling is getting to the fuel.” Similar problems exist in No. 2 and No. 3, although the blockage is probably less severe, the assessment says.

Some of the salt may have been washed away in the past week with the switch from seawater to fresh water cooling, nuclear experts said.

A rise in the water level of the containment structures has often been depicted as a possible way to immerse and cool the fuel. The assessment, however, warns that “when flooding containment, consider the implications of water weight on seismic capability of containment.”

Experts in nuclear plant design say that this warning refers to the enormous stress put on the containment structures by the rising water. The more water in the structures, the more easily a large aftershock could rupture one of them.

Margaret Harding, a former reactor designer for General Electric, warned of aftershocks and said, “If I were in the Japanese’s shoes, I’d be very reluctant to have tons and tons of water sitting in a containment whose structural integrity hasn’t been checked since the earthquake.”

...Nuclear engineers have warned in recent days that the pools outside the containment buildings that hold spent fuel rods could pose an even greater danger than the melted reactor cores. The pools, which sit atop the reactor buildings and are meant to keep spent fuel submerged in water, have lost their cooling systems.

The N.R.C. report suggests that the fuel pool of the No. 4 reactor suffered a hydrogen explosion early in the Japanese crisis and could have shed much radioactive material into the environment, what it calls “a major source term release.”

Experts worry about the fuel pools because explosions have torn away their roofs and exposed their radioactive contents. By contrast, reactors have strong containment vessels that stand a better chance of bottling up radiation from a meltdown of the fuel in the reactor core.

“Even the best juggler in the world can get too many balls up in the air,” Mr. Lochbaum said of the multiplicity of problems at the plant. “They’ve got a lot of nasty things to negotiate in the future, and one missed step could make the situation much, much worse.”
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Apr 5, 2011 - 11:22pm PT
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2011-04-05-japan-radiation_N.htm

EPA: Traces of radiation in Boise water
By Oren Dorell, USA TODAY

New data from the Environmental Protection Agency shows radioactive iodine detected in drinking water of Boise and Richland, Wash., according to radiation monitoring ordered since problems erupted at Japan's Fukushima Dai-ichi nuclear power plant.

both towns are home for me and my family
golsen

Social climber
kennewick, wa
Apr 5, 2011 - 11:35pm PT
A rise in the water level of the containment structures has often been depicted as a possible way to immerse and cool the fuel. The assessment, however, warns that “when flooding containment, consider the implications of water weight on seismic capability of containment.”

Experts in nuclear plant design say that this warning refers to the enormous stress put on the containment structures by the rising water. The more water in the structures, the more easily a large aftershock could rupture one of them.

This is an interesting analysis. First and foremost, it is Engineering 101 that when designing any type of column, vessel, containment, that the structural integrity is maintained when filled with the design liquid. So what they are saying is that if the containment vessels are full, and if another earthquake/aftershock occurs, then the containment vessels are subject to increased stress. No sh#t. Unfortunately, the press is twisting basic engineering into fear. Is the situation bad? Damn right, there are enough problems to worry about without bad press that only serves to sell the news. I have worked with PR folks on both sides of the fence and they always have an agenda. Unfortunately, fair and accurate reporting is not number 1 because it does not sell the news.

There are lots of things to worry about, but be sensible about who or what you listen too.

golsen

Social climber
kennewick, wa
Apr 5, 2011 - 11:47pm PT
Unfortunately Riley, under our current economic climate a vote for no nukes (which is fine if that's how you feel) is a vote for coal fired power plants, which is simply less dramatic in it's harm to human health and the environment.
mynameismud

climber
backseat
Apr 6, 2011 - 12:40am PT
So what they are saying is that if the containment vessels are full, and if another earthquake/aftershock occurs, then the containment vessels are subject to increased stress. No sh#t. Unfortunately, the press is twisting basic engineering into fear. Is the situation bad? Damn right, there are enough problems to worry about without bad press that only serves to sell the news

Except a couple of the containment vessels have been compromised so they may no longer sustain the stresses they were built to withstand.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Apr 6, 2011 - 01:37am PT
One of the comments on that NYTimes article. Let me know where you think he gets this wrong

"In the whole history of nuclear plants there have been three core melt downs... one in France, one in the Ukraine, and one in Pennsylvania.

Now, we have three more happening simultaneously in Japan. Alongside those three melt downs in progress (@ 5000 degrees F) they also offloaded core rods at reactor four into the spent fuel storage pond... which unfortunately had it's side wall torn off by that huge hydrogen explosion (weeks ago) and is therefore the 4th melt down happening at that one plant.

Chernobyl was one core meltdown. Chernobyl was also shut down with control rods in the water. Chernobyl was a couple hundred pounds of fuel. All in all, expect this to kick out way more radiation over time, than Chernobyl. You've got roughly a hundred tons of spent fuel in each of those storage ponds that are all vulnerable... sitting in close proximity and above the cores that are melting down those old GE mach one (cheap) core containment at #1, #2, and #3.

Added bonus; they just started running MOX fuel in reactor #3... that's plutonium from soviet nukes, they've got multiple bogies on their screen. That 2.75 million gallons of 100x contaminated water was just more of the same they've been dumping all along. Meanwhile that 100 thousand x contaminated water which came from the containment "tub" at core 2 is leaking into the ocean also, that's why they have no time to waste pumping it out of there; that and you have to know that #2 is in full meltdown which means it will burn it's own way through containment and the water would follow.

Chernobyl was the ultimate bad ending for a couple hundred pounds of uranium fuel... meanwhile what is happening at an old plant that should have been closed in February just before the tsunami... is four cores with thousands of pounds of uranium, some plutonium, and spent fuel rods amounting to hundreds of tons in jeopardy, especially in reactor four where the core is in there with them and the pool has lost its water from 45 feet of coverage down to around 5 feet of coverage.

Anyone who thinks they have that plant "under control" is delusional."

Seems to me that there's two basic ways this can go, pumping water into the damaged units to cool them, something that will have to be done for a LONG TIME, and inevitably results in thousands of tons of Radioactive water that can only be dumped in the pacific, or the units melt down to the groundwater (cause their containment vessels are compromised) and then they explode and it gets real ugly. The pool has lots of fuel and no containment vessel. Is there any not-screwed scenario where this gets under control eventually with utter jacking the environment?

Peace

Karl
mynameismud

climber
backseat
Apr 6, 2011 - 01:52am PT
you can rough it out at
Chernobyl
150 tons
and
Fukushima
1,500 tons
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Apr 6, 2011 - 01:54am PT
Fubar
rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
Apr 6, 2011 - 01:57am PT
I'm with Karl. The western "work and spend consumer society" party is over. Cancer deaths world-wide will continue to rise. Your and my offspring and loved ones will suffer. Wars for "safe energy" will escalate. The "haves" will kill the "have-nots" with increasing abandon, to try to hang on to yesterday's dream. Its a downward spiral from here on out.

Personally I think our only hope now is for Klimmer's UFOs to come in with some spaceage radiation cleanup techniques. ha I hear there have been UFO sightings over Japan.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Apr 6, 2011 - 01:59am PT
One thing that comes to mind about us silly humans

We have all these nuclear powered warships bristling with weapons that are designed to blow the crap out of, among other things, other nuclear powered warships.

Somehow I doubt they've engineered these reactors to truly resist the stress of being hit with the world's best weapons and then sinking to unimaginable pressures at the bottom of the ocean. Fortunately, we've settled on only going to war with the poorest and weakest nations on the planet but what happens if, say, the Iranians were to get lucky with their soviet missiles during a confrontation like Cheney and Fatty wanted to have over...hmmm, Irans nuclear program... and blew the crap out of a nuclear warship?

Peace

karl
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Apr 6, 2011 - 02:02am PT
Not that I'm a total pessimist. I think something beautiful may be blossoming in this world. It's just that this blossoming brings tremendous growing pains with it, witness the middle east.

The bug wraps itself in it's own funk, sleeps for a few months and comes out after an epic struggle with wet wings but eventually flies away beautiful.

Peace

Karl
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