What is "Mind?"

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healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 9, 2016 - 01:05am PT
I think of it more like this:

eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Aug 9, 2016 - 07:54am PT

I like this one.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Aug 9, 2016 - 11:34am PT
Exactly where on the tree of life does intelligence emerge? Or if you prefer, Sentience?

Are there other species, or is it only humans?

I'd love to hear what others think on that topic.
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Aug 9, 2016 - 12:03pm PT
Okay, I'll go. Intelligence/sentience is the result of many, many genes and should be considered as a more or less continuous property or set of properties. Any kind of boundary that you could put around it would be necessarily arbitrary.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 9, 2016 - 10:59pm PT
Why is it that scientist can only find prosate cancer in the stool's DNA, and not in the DNA in saliva?

Must be cause what's put in isn't necisseraly what comes out
WBraun

climber
Aug 9, 2016 - 11:11pm PT
Stool should always float.

Modern gross material scientist stool sinks.

When stool sinks consciousness devolves and sinks ......
jstan

climber
Aug 10, 2016 - 03:47am PT
Exactly where on the tree of life does intelligence emerge? Or if you prefer, Sentience?

Are there other species, or is it only humans?

A couple years ago I had the side of my house opened up. A garter snake wanted to crawl into the walls of the house. At first I had paid it no mind and it acted entirely cool with me, But after I had moved the snake away its behavior was entirely changed. It was fast and finally succeeded, later on showing up in my bathroom. Being sentient, whatever that is, my behavior then was also entirely changed.

Adapting behavior to conditions in the environment is needed for survival. Therefore we might look for the first evidence of that skill when life forms first achieved motion. To answer this question one might well get a microscope and start observing paramecia.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Aug 10, 2016 - 06:38am PT
Defining intellgence is a tough task, and it would be a mistake to assume that this isn't a new topic. How do we know that humans are the smartest animals? How do we rank a smart animal like a dolphin or Border Collie, or an octopus to each other and to humans?

Here is one definition that I found, and I think will be useful to us all:

A very general mental capability that, among other things, involves the ability to reason, plan, solve problems, think abstractly, comprehend complex ideas, learn quickly and learn from experience. It is not merely book learning, a narrow academic skill, or test-taking smarts. Rather, it reflects a broader and deeper capability for comprehending our surroundings—"catching on," "making sense" of things, or "figuring out" what to do.[7]

If you go with brain size, then we lose to Elephants and Whales. We are almost certainly more intelligent than elephants. They are just bigger animals, we could argue, although not all big animals have had big brains. Dinosaurs often had tiny brains.

One way to rank species and intelligence is through the Encephalization Quotient. Everyone should have read this page by now:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encephalization_quotient

Here is the rank using the Encephalization Quotient:

Human 7.4–7.8
Tucuxi 4.56[2] (this is a fresh water dolphin-MWH)
Bottlenose dolphin 4.14[3]
Orca 2.57–3.3[3][4]
Chimpanzee 2.2–2.5[5]
Rhesus monkey 2.1
Elephant 1.13–2.36[6]
Dog 1.2
Squirrel 1.1
Cat 1.00
Horse 0.9
Sheep 0.8
Mouse 0.5
Rat 0.4
Rabbit 0.4


Encephalization quotient (EQ), or encephalization level, is a measure of relative brain size defined as the ratio between actual brain mass and predicted brain mass for an animal of a given size, which is hypothesized to be a

Here are some examples of attempts to define intelligence in one sentence:


Researcher

Quotation

Alfred Binet Judgment, otherwise called "good sense," "practical sense," "initiative," the faculty of adapting one's self to circumstances ... auto-critique.[9]
David Wechsler The aggregate or global capacity of the individual to act purposefully, to think rationally, and to deal effectively with his environment.[10]
Lloyd Humphreys "...the resultant of the process of acquiring, storing in memory, retrieving, combining, comparing, and using in new contexts information and conceptual skills."[11]
Cyril Burt Innate general cognitive ability[12]
Howard Gardner To my mind, a human intellectual competence must entail a set of skills of problem solving — enabling the individual to resolve genuine problems or difficulties that he or she encounters and, when appropriate, to create an effective product — and must also entail the potential for finding or creating problems — and thereby laying the groundwork for the acquisition of new knowledge.[13]
Linda Gottfredson The ability to deal with cognitive complexity.[14]
Sternberg & Salter Goal-directed adaptive behavior.[15]
Reuven Feuerstein The theory of Structural Cognitive Modifiability describes intelligence as "the unique propensity of human beings to change or modify the structure of their cognitive functioning to adapt to the changing demands of a life situation."[16]
Charles Spearman "...all branches of intellectual activity have in common one fundamental function, whereas the remaining or specific elements of the activity seem in every case to be wholly different from that in all the others."[17]
Legg & Hutter A synthesis of 70+ definitions from psychology, philosophy, and AI researchers: "Intelligence measures an agent’s ability to achieve goals in a wide range of environments,"[5] which has been mathematically formalized.[18]
WBraun

climber
Aug 10, 2016 - 06:52am PT
Real intelligence is measured by how free the soul is from material bondage and contamination .......

eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Aug 10, 2016 - 08:02am PT
Just like the eye evolved separately several times, there is no reason to believe that intelligence hasn't as well. Who knows what is going on in the mind of those octopuses?
WBraun

climber
Aug 10, 2016 - 08:22am PT
Intelligence also devolves.

In this modern age intelligence has severely devolved.

Materialistic intelligence is ultimately useless to the living entity ......
jstan

climber
Aug 10, 2016 - 05:27pm PT
Artist! You must suffer for your work.

And this is where the suffering is inflicted.
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Aug 11, 2016 - 04:38pm PT
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Aug 11, 2016 - 05:38pm PT
Base wrote earlier.

Here is the rank using the Encephalization Quotient:
Human 7.4–7.8
Tucuxi 4.56[2] (this is a fresh water dolphin-MWH)
Bottlenose dolphin 4.14[3]
Orca 2.57–3.3[3][4]
Chimpanzee 2.2–2.5[5]
Rhesus monkey 2.1
Elephant 1.13–2.36[6]
Dog 1.2
Squirrel 1.1
Cat 1.00
Horse 0.9
Sheep 0.8
Mouse 0.5
Rat 0.4
Rabbit 0.4

I often imagine myself as Charles Darwin -- you know, being observant about nature and stuff. Anyhow, I may be a tiny-bit biased, but, I'm thinking that that ratio of 1.1/1 for squirrel intelligence to cat intelligence, should be more like 1.4/1. I'm sorry, Miss Kitty, but I've got to calls 'em as I sees 'em. Do not ever get into a poker game with any of those squirrels if the stakes are high.

But seriously, folks, seems to me that surface area may be more important than mass with respect to the important factor to compare with respect to intelligence (the Encephalization quotient uses mass). All of those crenulations in the brain result in increased surface area. My wife, Elizabeth (a psychology PhD and Cetacean-lover) tells me that it is a well-known fact that whales have a greater total surface area in their brain relative to body-weight than humans do. So look up THAT in your Funk and Wagnail's
jgill

Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
Aug 12, 2016 - 07:41pm PT
A bit of thread drift in evidence, although that's to be expected in the absence of JL and MikeL (who is teaching a course in the Eller School of Business in Arizona). As Yogi would say - wherever the thread goes that's where it's at!
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Aug 12, 2016 - 11:27pm PT
Jgill:

Funny or coincidental that I would find the last post in this thread a reference to me. I’ve not been involved in the thread for a few weeks, due to numerous projects moving into a new home. I’ve scanned the posts since my last submission (about 500+ of them). I’m sorry that I was not involved when MB1 was posting (his were very technical posts). I think I’ll respond to some of the things he said to me, but I think I’ll do so off-line with him.

I wrote to Largo a few weeks ago that I’m not sure how much I can communicate anymore to folks in this thread. Even the more technical arguments (about what things really are or how they work) seem irrelevant and trivial to me these days. One might say that my detachment from the conspiracy of consensus-based reality is more than slight. Whether it’s Trump, the findings of science, or the need to clean the bathroom . . . much of it is dreamlike to me whenever I notice it (nowadays, regularly). As Jed McKenna says, increasingly I’m aware of just two things—one of which is true, and the other that isn’t: consciousness (only mine, which is undeniable) and displays of pixels / phenomena / appearances (which are not true). Proving this or that, this vs. that argument, the importance of this or that fact are not very compelling or interesting. If anything, I guess, I’m interested in the drama and conflict of the process, not the outcomes.

Recently I’ve been looking through about 20 years of (camera) images we now have of what we call our shared lives. In many of those images I see my wife or myself, and a memory arises of what was in my or her mind and heart then. Although certainly not true or accurate, what I experience in looking at those images is how little experience we were cognizant of at the time. What I see in those images was how very small our experiences were . . . our little lives, our little objectives, our little intentions, our little feelings, our, our, our, our. How so much more, how so much infinitely more, there was, that we did not seem to notice. We can see that in the very recorded images (or so it seems) that is a part of our current experiences. This is not: “Oh, if I only knew then what I know now.” This is: “Oh, I could have been much more aware of life, of living, of being, of experience.” This encourages me especially to see beyond what I see today. The story of “me” is just the smallest part of experience, of consciousness, of being. It’s just one channel on UTV (Universe TV), which has an infinite number of channels.

I seem to be evaporating. I guess southern Arizona is agreeing with me.

There is nothing to say, nothing to do, no where to go, and even nothing to be. The only real self is no-self.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 12, 2016 - 11:49pm PT
I think I’ll respond to some of the things he said to me, but I think I’ll do so off-line with him.

Awe man. i wondered where you werent. so your a desert dawg now, eh!


There is nothing to say, nothing to do, no where to go, and even nothing to be. The only real self is no-self.

i just haven't been able to join poles with ya on this one tho.
jogill

climber
Colorado
Aug 13, 2016 - 10:53am PT
Well, I for one am happy to see you return to the thread, Mike. Your POV is provocative and your commentaries arising from your professional expertise are illuminating. And I will say that as I rapidly approach 80 I have begun to understand your perspective on losing individual control of the circumstances of one's life.
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Aug 13, 2016 - 07:29pm PT
There is nothing to say, nothing to do, no where to go, and even nothing to be.


Ah, we agree. I follow the same or a similar method on the sensory perimeter of a bureaucracy.
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Aug 13, 2016 - 07:46pm PT
The smartest animal is the one who knows how to use their intelligence.
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