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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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eeyonkee, Trad climber Golden, CO
Aug 8, 2016 - 03:50am PT
Base's reference to teleology reminds me of something the late Clean Dan Grandusky taught me in the early 1980s that I never forgot.
My eschatological perspective has evolved to the point of dis-including all macro-teleological addendums.
Sorry - its early.
Never to early to see Dans name !
He was always very good, great in fact, what the hell happened?
when I knew him in the 80s he partied hard, drank and cranked to drive all night like so many of us did.
Just a few months ago, I got to ask - just heard half of the sad tale.
He was 'ok' at a party the night before he .....?no way Clean Dan, hooked , bootin' it?
so then a gun suicide? Clean Dan? Why didn't anyone take a hex to his head and get him help? ( I did not stay in touch, so I feel like I'm also at fault, that man was a good friend to me)
When we see each other hurting and
addicted,
a brother should stand up and get bloody knuckles if that is what it takes
(Clean Dan should not Have killed himself ) by drink either, but
that is good to know,
Thanks Eeonkee
No one of us who have slipped and seen death should go out that way now.
Reach out to your old phook ers check in,
if you can - tell them to get off what ever that junk is.
Hard? so what, to hard get help, rant ...
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Hey Gnome, Clean Dan did not commit suicide. He died in his sleep due to complications of alcoholism. I didn't see him as much as I should have toward the end. He was one of my best friends for a long time. Here's another one from Dan's creative mind. It is a name of a route at Rattlesnake in Ontario, Canada.
Smegma spasmodic frogs from the far-flung Isles of Langerhans.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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This passage from Richard Dawkin's The Blind Watchmaker is speaking to Paul.
There is nothing special about the substances from which living things are made. Living things are collections of molecules, like everything else.
What is special is that these molecules are put together in much more complicated patterns than the molecules of non-living things, and this putting together is done by following programs -- sets of instructions for how to develop, which organisms carry around inside themselves. Maybe they do vibrate and throb and pulsate with 'irritability' and glow with 'living' warmth but these properties all emerge incidentally. What lies at the heart of every living thing is not a fire, not warm breath, not a 'spark of life'. It is information, words, instructions. If you want a metaphor don't think of fires and sparks and breath. Think, instead, of a billion discrete, digital characters carved in tablets of crystal. If you want to understand life, don't think about vibrant, throbbing gels and oozes, think about information technology.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Don't think about them DMT -- just don't!
By the way, Dawkins was referring to the fact that he could remember some of his own textbooks that talked about the stuff of life being primordial ooze.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Apologies To the assembled, for such distracted from relevance to the big question, what Is "mind?"
No, I'm not sorry for a step to the side of this deep thread.
This Drift is good
I am from - the far flung isle of langberham!
Oh , Eeonkee, my hart breaks,
that name is from a very obscure Firesing Thearter routine.
A thing that Dan and I shared, a near photographic memory of random obscure
One-liners from Firesign.
I can't tell you how it hurts me I owed Dan. I know he was a tough nut, I would have gone down in flames to save him.. I should have housed him given him sanctuary away from his life for awhile . He w old never return my random calls when I blew through,
I was climbing, on the move, so a call or two and a "hope to see you at Lumpy"
I have a foggy memory of a day when we hit the "Psychedelic Chrome Plaited Ennema Syringe" and JCrack in the same day?! Can that be right?
He refused to include me in some covert ascent ? Road Warrior?
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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If you want to understand life, don't think about vibrant, throbbing gels and oozes, think about information technology.
Funny:
Humanity develops the computer and celebrates its requisite information technology and is so amazed by the cleverness of its model to the degree that it speculates information technology is the basis of all life.
If life is simply information then what is that information's source or what gives the initial bit, the marching orders, so to speak, if those orders aren't already prefabricated as an inevitability into the structure of the universe itself? If life occurs out of specific natural processes programmed into that very structure as the laws of physics then how can life's appearance be described as an accident?
The mechanics of life aside, the computer model simply seems inadequate to account for experience: DNA, neurons and electrical charges and brain matter fall short of being love and fear and taste and sight as experience in our minds. The I inside each of us experiences in ways no computer, no matter how complex, can and there's a reason for that.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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The I inside each of us experiences in ways no computer, no matter how complex, can and there's a reason for that.
What is that reason?
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Ever wonder what it might "feel like" to be a bat? It would certainly feel different from being a human one suspects. Is bat consciousness also something special that cannot possibly have arisen from DNA, neurons and electrical charges? And following up with MH2's last post -- what would be the reason?
Edit: Gnome, I should have remembered the Fireside Theater origins of smegma... That boy had a photographic memory indeed.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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^^^ Naked Lunch too.
The I inside each of us experiences in ways no computer, no matter how complex, can and there's a reason for that
Reply PSP?
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Is bat consciousness also something special that cannot possibly have arisen from DNA, neurons and electrical charges?
Here's the problem: when you say arisen what do you mean? The implication is that consciousness is separate from the structure of its production. DNA and all aside the experience you feel and participate in may be a product but it is not the producer. And this is, of course, the ongoing discussion on this thread.
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Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
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Jstan said,
If you view any of Lawrence Krauss' "Universe from Nothing" lectures he explains the biggest bummer of all. In a trillion years recessional velocities of all presently visible galaxies will have exceeded the speed of light and we will be able to see only the stars in our galaxy. If we wait longer even the milky way will not be visible. Space will be just a dark space empty of the matter we are used to.
Get yourself a telescope now, before it is too late to see anything.
A timely reminder to get to clear skies this Friday night to see the peak of the Perseid meteor shower! Supposed to be quite good this year: 200 meteors an hour.
http://www.space.com/32868-perseid-meteor-shower-guide.html
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Paul said.
Here's the problem: when you say arisen what do you mean? The implication is that consciousness is separate from the structure of its production. DNA and all aside the experience you feel and participate in may be a product but it is not the producer. And this is, of course, the ongoing discussion on this thread.
Actually, what I mean is that consciousness is a manifestation of its production. Seems likely to me that there is a "feeling" behind seeing. It's not a big jump to a "feeling" behind thinking -- remembering, solving a problem, feeling that creative urge -- that kind of stuff.
By the way, thank you RickA! I'll be at the Vedauwoo Sushifest on the one of the prime nights (Saturday).
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Interesting how academic strains are melding: Psychophysics, Experimental philosophy, Experimental mathematics, Psychobiology, etc.
I now find that in a sense my math noodling these days makes me an experimental mathematician of some minor ilk. There are also Computer artists as well as Algorithmic artists (Algorists) , Generative artists and Software artists who produce math art. Not sure in which camp I reside. Gets confusing.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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the experience you feel and participate in may be a product but it is not the producer
Man is the pie that bakes and eats itself.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Wonder if there is any further word on the mysterious MetaMind Project ?
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Okay, so here's my current answer to the thread question
Mind is the manifestation of thinking in an organism having a brain. The organism has an evolving (for the most part -- hedging because of personal experience) history that is imprinted as short- and long-term memory in that brain. Thinking involves accessing "instinctive" responses to stimuli that are saved in the organism's genes and epigenetic imprints, along with those saved memories. The novelty of the world from moment to moment, mainly because of social interaction, ensures a rich manifestation of thinking in a social world of humans.
Then again, maybe not.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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As a software modeler, this is what I have so far.
Back of the envelope.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Greg, you have incomplete data at present. The MetaMind Project (seemingly, an effort in experimental philosophy) promises massive data from 3,000 respondents, to be analyzed presumably by a team of unidentified philosophers. Better wait for those results.
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jstan
climber
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By extension from human thought, we can imagine bats think humans are big stupid creatures who can neither think nor fly. Things that don't even try to fly clearly don't think and have no imagination, Bats watched us evolve from primates in the trees. Losing such a talent is clearly thoughtless.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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By extension from human thought, we can imagine bats think humans are big stupid creatures who can neither think nor fly. Things that don't even try to fly clearly don't think and have no imagination, Bats watched us evolve from primates in the trees. Losing such a talent is clearly thoughtless.
No doubt, I recently read the bat equivalents to Dante's "Divine Comedy" and Einstein's "Theory of Relativity" fascinating reads although the language of bats isn't easy for dumb humans and since they (the bats) have no movable type they hand write all their works and they write like human physicians with tiny little claws making everything even more difficult. It's worth the effort though. I'm waiting for bat tv which is supposed to be guano free with out a hint of rabies, should be good. Also looking forward to the mass produced bat mobile I hear it drives itself. Those bats are smart.
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