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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Russ nails it. (So to speak.)
I can only add that well over 95% of the posters to the thread are male, and that it seems likely to set an all-time SuperTopo record (for length), perhaps even surpassing the cumulative Stonemasters threads. It may even stagger on until the FaceLift in September, where those with sufficient stamina and interest can continue the discussion. If, that is, the silent majority allow it.
Edit: All contributors will now be sentenced to a trip in the Total Perspective Vortex: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_Perspective_Vortex
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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K-man asked for a summary.....
its all about egos.
Bruce
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Funny sh#t Russ...you the man...nice for keeping it light.
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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RE:
"nice for keeping it light."
it's all good but sure seems like a lot of the nay-sayers are
sounding pretty bitter and unhappy - if that's what your climbing
career's have done for you (to you?) fu*k, I mean, why even bother...
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Jennie
Trad climber
Idaho Falls
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I can only add that well over 95% of the posters to the thread are male, and that it seems likely to set an all-time SuperTopo record,…..
Anders, many females experience “competitive anxiety” when exposed to males contending strongly with one another. Women may have conscious or subconscious fear of the burnout of social cohesion and even collapse of social structure when aggressive males begin “running off the rails.”
That, along with women’s socialization as subordinates tends to increase withdrawal (and forum absenteeism) when competitive ridicule, chest thumping and stubborn ranting are employed by males making their mark.
With lessened accountability on the internet, many men choose to come off as rogue alpha males, anxious to contend and demonstrate mastery in a charged controversy.
Climbing is not inherently competitive. But American culture nurtures the competitive mindset, and in the American climbing scene, competitive models prevail i.e.; the focus on elitism, first ascents, rigid style archetypes are cultivated at the expense of cooperation, solidarity and community.
Many on this thread have displayed great civility and made salient points without getting hostile or obnoxious. But ubiquitous belligerence, by some, and motivation to elevate one’s standing by slagging on someone else’s climb obviously taint the debate.
Competitive mindset cocoons individuals in their own self righteousness. Despite outstanding posts by a significant number of individuals, I think this thread will be remembered as another testosterone fest.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Russ,
I laughed up a lung. Thanks a lot.
Raydog, I've heard plenty of bitterness from both camps. Plenty of rap-bolters don't like having their gems called "bad style".
You know what they say, "Bitterness is in the tongue of the beholder."
Wow Jennie,
That is really insightful and wise.
Are you hot?
Just kidding.:)
So do women not have an opinion about rap bolting?
All this talk of safety makes me think of a letter to the editor a few years back. Some person had written that this climbing was dangerous, and that these climbs required more bolts to make them safe for everyone. I apologize for not having the exact qoute but Mark Wilford responded with something like: " I didn't start climbing because it was safe all the time. I have an idea, let's just bulldoze all these mountains down and make everything flat. Then we can all be safe."
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Thought Bayard was part of the Keg fixing???
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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RE:
"I've heard plenty of bitterness from both camps. Plenty of rap-bolters don't like having their gems called "bad style".
You know what they say, "Bitterness is in the tongue of the beholder." "
hey, fair enough - don't let me stop the fun...
carry on!
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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OK, everybody join in for the chorus:
"Old and in the fra--aaay"
Thanks, Russ. Best thing for me here is breaking out Laughing Out Loud. Not just the thought of it, a token lol, but from my gut. Often too. God I love climbers.
Need it too, boy. Chores are way beyond piling up here -- I'm having trouble wading through the debris to get to the kitchen. Which doesn't matter all that much because like Sean I'm starting a diet tomorrow. Out of peanut butter anyway and nearing the bottom of the coffee. Beer's gone...last 3 sips of scotch.
Must...find...outside world
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Survival: "So do women not have an opinion about rap bolting?"
Dude, that's the stupidest fu#*ing thing you've said on this whole thread. (Sorry, couldn't resist. Someone unloaded that line onto me yesterday and now I get to pass it on.)
Seriously, women are waay too smart to wade into a pissing match among guys. I mean, eewww!-- almost stepped in it.
They've got their own problems. Like maneuvering a date with the winner.
Haven't you ever noticed how chicks compete? It's amazing. Way more sophisticated. They can carry on a full-on "I'm hotter than you" campaign, just slice each other off at the knees, "like, did you see what that bitch was wear-ing? Taste-lesss!" -- and keep a polite smile on their faces the whole time.
FWIW -- and it's worth, actually, the whole game -- Jennie is hot. I mean she's tapped into the main nerve here, kind of the operating subtext for this whole, uh, civilization.
Jennie's "fear of the burnout of social cohesion and even collapse of social structure" just highlights that women are the carriers of culture. They maintain the delicate fabric of our lives together. The tribe. No wonder they're concerned that the guys'll get out of control -- I mean even more out of control than usual -- just drunk and careening around and on the edge of violence, and rip the sh*T out of the social fabric. Just rend it.
They got a tough, tough job. They know they gotta keep it together, the tenuous structure, and at the same time fight for themselves, get the best "sperm donor and a paycheck" so they can have the most badass kids.
It's a system. Barely works, gets broken easily, spare parts hard to come by. Cooperation is a tough act to keep together in the midst of rampant competition. (Of course climbing is competitive. But it's also way cooperative -- trusting rope partners is like hunting tigers together. Altogether an uneasy blend.) And it's a thankless job keeping it together while the dudes, the stinky dudes just reeking of testosterone, are out in the back crushing beer cans and fighting the bolt wars.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Gawd, now I'm laughing all over again!
I'd have to say you stepped in it at least as bad as I did...AGAIN!!!
It was just funny, her whole post was about slicing the guys off at the knees, not climbing.
I think I'll go "mark" something......
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Surival wrote: I think I'll go "mark" something......
My wife could less about this crap...she has given life to three children....everything else comes in a distance second place.
I stand quite rigid when told by a man what I should and shouldn't do...coming from wife...I just listen...99 per-cent of the time she is right.
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WBraun
climber
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Hey?
Did the sun finally come out here?
That was a great post Jennie who just popped out of the bottle again.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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damn Russ, insight. Way back upthread, your first post summed it up pretty well too.
Obama / Fish !
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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No one's asked my opinion but in the spirit of this thread I'll offer it anyway ... I think it's OK that Sean and Doug established the route in this fashion, for the carefully thought-out and explained reasons they gave. From the early descriptions, sounds like it could become a high-end classic in time.
Being not of an all-or-nothing outlook (so much of life exists in that infinite space between zero and one), I don't agree that their ascent necessarily creates ethical permission or opens the door for endless rap-bolting of other walls all over the Valley (or HDSF). But maybe this particular route is worthwhile? We'll hear soon from other parties, is my guess.
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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I'll bring booze and a topo
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SteveW
Trad climber
State of confusion
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If Jennie shows up, she and I will be standing in
the trees watching the slaughter. . .
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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a couple of million years of evolution and we're arguing over a route...
and justifying in terms of the social construction of great apes.
Russ' summary gets to the point.
We are the crown of creation? I'll bet the microbes on the SFHD out weigh us.
Oh the humility (if only)!
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Gene
climber
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At this point in the saga, I think it is time to thank whoever put the 20 post per page system into the forum. Can you imagine downloading the entire thread to see the latest posts?
Thank god for Last >>!!!
Carry on...
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Great post Jennie.
For some of us, climbing is what makes us special beyond the mundane mediocrity of the rest of the world. Because of that, our climbing validates our existence and our ideas about climbing become identified with our whole self image.
When somebody goes against our ideas of climbing, it threatens the stability of our system of self-worth. If somebody can go rap bolt a line on SFHD, it takes away the specialness and eliteness of "my" route on SFHD.
We all get old, and then older. We better find a higher level of validation within because many of us know many of the old icons and validating our existence with an identity of "Climber" isn't a sustainable world view.
As for safety. It's funny that many have made the point that a route doesn't "Have" to be safe, (although they seem to imply that a SFHD route "Has" to be dangerous) and some of the same people have made the point that people don't get hurt on the death routes, they get hurt on the regular routes (the ones folks actually climb)
So it shouldn't surprise anyone if more adventures, and even more injuries, happen on GU than on the rest of the routes over there combined. If nobody goes up, nobody gets pumped, nobody falls.
So perhaps it's a matter of balance, a judgement call made by the first ascender considering the opinions of the community but, like Harding, not dictated by them. If somebody goes WAY WAY out of line, the community takes action. If something is borderline and done by the climbers with the credentials to push it, then we have these discussions.
But since we're feeling the heat on both sides, be sure and look within and feel "why" (without resorting to rationalization) any particular side of this debate should feel personally threatening or enraging. It's natural to have the reaction but enlightening to trace it back and understand what climbing means to us, both positively and negatively
Peace
Karl
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