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Dos XX
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 16, 2011 - 02:34pm PT
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[with apologies to Largo]
In the course of my work as a specialist in the field of Rock Mechanics, I spend a lot of time in tunnels, mines and quarries -- sometimes helping to keep the rocks safely in place, and sometimes devising the safest and most efficient way to blow them up. Mining is...well...messy. As someone who puts John Muir at the top of my list of heroes and spiritual mentors, I guess I've found a way to personally reconcile a love and appreciation of Nature, and our seemingly insatiable need for more stuff from Mother Earth.
I think about this a lot and once did a thought experiment, imagining what life would be like without mining (defined here as deriving benefit from anything mineral extracted from the ground). I eventually arrived at a mental picture of myself sitting in a dirt-floored hut made of sticks, wearing clothing made of woven plants. No stone tools for killing game or scraping hides, no stone-walled dwellings. And thinking of what seems so important to us today, there'd be no high-speed travel, no electronic communication, no computers or iPods, no recorded music, no Internet. Climbing and mountaineering as we know it, simply would not exist without synthetic ropes, camming devices, ice tools, etc, etc. All this cool stuff we've come to love, came from mining.
How do YOU reconcile your love of nature and wildness, with your love/need for stuff from beneath the Earth?
If you could personally re-shape HOW and WHERE mining is done, for the betterment of the environment, what do you think ought to be tried?
What changes in your government's policy toward mining would you like to see?
Illustration from the first textbook on mining, "De re metallica", by Georgius Agricola, published in 1556.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Nov 16, 2011 - 02:44pm PT
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We need more mining engineers like you.
There is no problem taking from the Earth as long as you give more than you take.
Off-shore drilling, tundra drilling, open-pit mining: All good if responsibility for the environment is part of the engineering equation.
Sadly a few greedy, thoughtless, or at least unaware men have caused great damage in certain parts of the world. Others, who are also not thinking clearly incorrectly target the industry or the practice rather than the individual people who caused the mess.
Individuals are the problem. Enlightenment for those individuals is the solution.
My father was Geology Prof. I grew up poking around mines and road cuts with him. He too loved the outdoors and held the view of responsible use of resources.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 16, 2011 - 03:08pm PT
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Scientist, teacher, climber, environmentalist (long time Sierra Club member), element, mineral, rock, and meteorite collector. I even share the same B-day as a hero of mine, John Muir. Gee, he was into a lot of the same things too. How curious and unusual. And yes I'm a Christian too, and proud of it. Without Christ I would be nothing. I wouldn't even be here, and the things I love to do, the adventure, and natural study and science, and the people I love to be with, none of it would be possible. Theistic Evolution.
Mining is a necessary evil. We need resources, but we also need to do it in an environmentally and socially sound way. Very hard to do.
I believe we can accomplish it best ultimately off Earth. Asteroid mining. Go after the ones that threaten us first and fly by the Earth (NEOs). One day we will. And we will do it profitably. There is technology out there that we can use right now that will get us to Mars/Asteroid belt and back before lunch. TPTB hide it selfishly away.
I love to look for, discover, find unique, beautiful, and rare natural resources. I get a lot of pleasure in that.
By the way, look up how many elements, minerals, rock types, special natural resource treasures, and even mining procedures are mentioned in The Good Book. You will be amazed. By the way, who taught us how to mine and do metallurgy? Read the Book of Enoch.
Edit:
By the way, I enjoy exploring old mines, and have explored many over the years. I also enjoy looking though the mine tailings and determining what they were going after, and then collecting best samples.
Hint: Never forget your high-power shortwave UV lamp and your black barbecue grill cover (day-time UV rock collecting insta-tent), you'd be amazed how many minerals fluoresce. Flourescence is another "Ooooohhhh AAaaawwweeee" bang for your collecting buck.
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Dos XX
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 16, 2011 - 07:58pm PT
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A self-serving BUMP to get "Mind?" and "Mined"? back together on the front page.
I'm kind of surprised there hasn't been a lot of discussion in this thread so far -- there are over 1,700 postings on S.Topo that mention mining. I was hoping that more of the bright minds who visit this forum would offer innovative ideas on how they would deal with the environment vs. mining dilemma.
@spider
Yes, someone once told me that the mining industry needed more Sierra Club members in it; they were not being facetious when they said it, and I think I get it.
@klimmer
Mining other bodies in the Solar System may hold some promise, though the energy cost of getting a hauler+ its return fuel out of the Earth's atmosphere & gravity would be prohibitively expensive with current spacecraft technology. On the other hand, de-energizing a loaded hauler is not very costly, as the Earth's atmosphere does a pretty good job at that. If a hauler could be constructed extra-terrestrially and the fuel produced extra-terrestrially also, that would take care of a lot of the energy cost. Your suggestion did remind me of a bumper sticker I see from time to time -- usually in rural areas of Nevada and Wyoming. It's intentionally inflammatory, but always makes me smile.
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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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Nov 16, 2011 - 09:16pm PT
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I'm a mining engineer as well. I specialize in mine ventilation and block caving (underground mass mining), and have been lucky enough to travel to operations in Portugal, Spain, Chile, and Indonesia in my career.
As a ventilation engineer, one of my goals is energy conservation - mine ventilation can take up to 50% of a mine's power cost. So implementing technologies that reduce consumption while maintaining a safe, healthy environment is a challenge that I constantly faced.
At my last position, at one of countries largest underground mines, I implemented biodiesel fuel and other emissions reductions measures which combined reduced particulate emissions by 75%, as production increased. Mining companies realize that energy, environmental footprints, and social issues are concerns and most (there are bad actors in every industry) are addressing these concerns.
@Dingus - usually you are sensible, however in this case you are off base. No company in any industry would accept a taking of 100% top line, gross revenue. Hell, Zimbabwe isn't even that ridiculous. A more sensible proposal would be a small percentage (1%-ish) NSR (Net Smelter Return) Offtake to a state fund, or something of the like, in addition to the initial reclamation bond. Mining companies in the US are required to post reclamation bonds for projects and expansions that (in theory at least) would cover the cost of reclamation of disturbed land.
Thanks for posting, Dos XX
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Nov 16, 2011 - 09:25pm PT
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I work in mining's evil sister's industry, oil and gas, so understand the conundrum, and public criticist/derision.
//How do YOU reconcile your love of nature and wildness, with your love/need for stuff from beneath the Earth?//
We can't live on the earth without having an impact on the environment, it is utterly impossible. Breathing, eating, shelter, heating, clothing, sh@tting, all of those activities have an impact.
To me the reconsiliation comes from learning from mans mistakes, and improving our practices and technology to improve safety to workers, those living near mines, and to the environment. There is something dreadfully wrong when the US has the highest safety and environmental standards in the world, and the environmental movement would prefer to shut down mining and oil and gas work to have it go overseas, where the standards aren't as strictly enforced. That hurts us on multiple fronts. We import more materials, we lose jobs, and we loose the technology development and support industry. We should be proud to have the safest and cleanest mines in the world, not ashamed of the industry.
If you could personally re-shape HOW and WHERE mining is done, for the betterment of the environment, what do you think ought to be tried?
As far as re-shaping how, the emphasis should be on minimum impact, minimizing the use of toxic chemicals, tailings segregation to prevent toxic runoff and complete remediation. Nothing to be done about where, the minerals are where they are. If they can be mined with minimal environmental impact, go get them, if not, let them stay where they are until technology has reached the point where they can be safely and economically produced.
What changes in your government's policy toward mining would you like to see?
I'd liek to see the government encourage domestic production of minerals, same with oil and gas.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Nov 16, 2011 - 09:49pm PT
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Interesting question but I feel that in populated states like Colorado, it is a moot question at this point in time. There's still gold in the old mines, I've seen it with my own eyes while exploring various mines in Colorado with my geologist father. However, even at today's high prices, it isn't profitable to take it out, especially with environmentalists filing lawsuits everywhere to prevent it.
Ironically those same environmentalists are able to drive into Lead King Basin right next to the Snowmass Wilderness Area, instead of spending two days of hiking to get there, thanks to a road put in by my father to haul equipment up to his mines there.
My sister and I own about 25 acres each of patented mining claims thanks to his efforts and feel it is our responsibility to be good stewards of that land. Since his death, we have done our best to haul this equipment back out and recycle it ,and I have agreed to let the state put up a locked metal grating on all the mines on our property, the funding of which comes from a tax paid for by the few mines (mostly coal mines) still operating in Colorado.
These grates have openings however for bats to come and go as a conservation measure. I would say this is generally the way things are going with mining in Colorado.
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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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Nov 16, 2011 - 10:10pm PT
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It's funny, Jan. There's two operating gold mines in Colorado that are public knowledge at least - one is the gigantic Cripple Creek (Cresson) pit. The other is a tiny high grade vein near Lake City. There are some folks trying to open up historical mines around Clear Creek County, but its not cheap to do. There's still a lot of gold and silver around in the state, but its not easy to get mines in or reopened.
I agree that you'd think with our high standards, the US would rather encourage mining here than in places like Africa. But look at discussions around Resolution Mine near Queen Creek in Arizona on Mountain Project, and you'll see the typical NIMBY attitude that is pervasive in the country, nevermind a top tier, responsible company is developing the project.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Nov 16, 2011 - 10:14pm PT
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Yup, mines are important. Ya have yer mines, and you have your MINES!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Nov 16, 2011 - 10:18pm PT
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I'm sure the Colorado mines will shut again as soon as the price of gold goes back down which inevitably it will do as we get a handle on the economy and begin to recover from 10 years of war. The last time gold was worth mining in Colorado was the 1970's, when gold went high as the economy stumbled paying for the Vietnam War of the previous decade.
My father always maintained though that if there ever was another great depression, people with mining property could pan enough and hand pick enough to survive if it came to that.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Nov 16, 2011 - 10:19pm PT
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I hate to see people go all rabid on mining operations with the "not in my back yard" attitude. That just sends the miners to some third world country where the officials can be bribed into screwing the local population.
It is the responsibility of those who take wealth from the Earth to pay a fair share to those who make sacrifices. Also to take measures to minimize the impact of dust, noise, toxins, artificial lighting, etc.
This may be completely unreal to some people but I see no reason why we could not develop technology to pull crude out of the ground and pipe it away without spilling a drop.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Nov 16, 2011 - 10:21pm PT
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I figure off-planet mining is going to be for off-planet activities.
Moving cargo up and down the gravity well is costly. I think it will be easier to just go out there and live, then move our bodies on and off planet to enjoy the lovely pleasures of Earth.
When we get to the stage of technology of mining the moon & asteroids, the same tech may also help us more cleanly exploit the resources here.
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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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Nov 16, 2011 - 10:41pm PT
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You don't see things like this in other industries. Poor pic, but this is a gigantic crystal in Chile - about 20 inches in diameter and 20 feet long. Many were taken to a corporate headquarters, but these were left in the locked cavern and it was bypassed in the mine plan.
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laughingman
Ice climber
Seattle WA
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Nov 17, 2011 - 12:34am PT
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I find it rather disturbing that the hard rock mining l in the United States have not changed since the late 1870s.
The law was written 137 years ago times have changed so should mining laws.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Nov 17, 2011 - 12:49am PT
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Then there's my mother's take based on her experience with my father.
"A mine is a hole in the ground that you pour money into and nothing much but mud ever comes out".
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Nov 17, 2011 - 09:31am PT
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Successful mining does require a great deal of luck. Geologists can tell you all about where and how valuable resources occur, but few can just go out and dig a hole and find a mother lode. Otherwise, they'd be rich.
I think the luck/failure factor may me a major reason why the government has gone easy on mining all these years.
That being said, I don't know the actual numbers, but I think mining operations should probably pay a higher royalty. For the most part, that land out there isn't just theirs, it's ours.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Nov 17, 2011 - 12:49pm PT
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Freeport - McMoRan
Grasport mine. Eating away at Carstenz' Pyramid (Puncak Jaya) in Papua.
-4.078889,137.158333
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MikeL
climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
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Nov 17, 2011 - 02:23pm PT
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Dos XX: //How do YOU reconcile your love of nature and wildness [sic], with your love/need for stuff from beneath the Earth?//
Reconciliation isn't possible, and I think it is unskillful to be looking for permanent solutions ever. It's instructive to be out-of-balance, guilt-ridden, and troubled by these things. Being out-of-balance or troubled informs us of who we are or who we want to be.
Nice thread.
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ydpl8s
Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
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Nov 17, 2011 - 02:55pm PT
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It is a problem with many quandries. As a geophysicist, I've done a lot of exploratory work for both the mining and oil&gas companies. The truth is that there have always been companies that will get away with as much as they can to enhance profit. There are also companies that are better stewards of the land, but often not until they are "nudged" to do so. It's often a bad situation that starts with the "not in my backyard" mentality. If we push too hard and shut down all exploration in a richer, more aware country, and subsequently make it too expensive to work there, then the exploration is moved to countries where regulation is not as strict. This unfortunately usually harms the poor people of that less developed country more than it would us, as we pass the buck to despot leaders and their desperate minions.
This new global economy has created this situation for all types of businesses, the sweatshops that build your iphones and sew your Nike gear, as well as those working in the mines in 3rd world countries.
I wish I had an answer, but I think that everyone willing to do with a little less material goods and trying to keep humanitarian and conservation standards equal the world over would help a lot.
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Dos XX
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 17, 2011 - 03:51pm PT
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Wow. Plenty of insightful observations here. I wish we were all together, lounging comfortably on a sunny patio, sipping our favourite beverage while we toss ideas back and forth. There's a lot I'd like to say in response to what has been so thoughtfully written, so I'll try to work my way through the thread as time permits.
@dingusM
This gets back to a comment made by @mikeL also: "reconciliation" may not be the right word to describe how folks like us, lovers of beautiful places and wildness (this actually is the word I wanted to use, @mikeL), also go about our lives as not insignificant consumers of Earth's resources. Our consumption inevitably causes degradation of beautiful places and wildness. I suppose I seek finding a livable balance of preservation and impact, because as @mikeL observes, we at times feel we may be out-of-balance. One of the best tests of one's convictions about preservation, I think, is how we conduct ourselves when no one is looking. It's disheartening, for example, to see trash stuffed in nooks and crannies in areas frequented almost exclusively by climbers, like certain bouldering areas at Stoney Point. When I see this at Stoney, I have to tell myself it must have been done by non-climbers. But the trash stuffed into nooks and crannies on popular El Cap routes like the Nose and Salathe, could have come only from climbers.
Back to another of your comments, @dingusM, regarding financial responsibility for clean-up of mine sites. @Dave alluded to the most common way that this is handled nowadays, namely bonding. I can only speak from experience in California about how this works. By law, all active mining operations in California have to have a state-approved reclamation plan, and a condition for getting a reclamation plan approved is providing financial assurance that the reclamation work will be carried out and paid for. A company could give the state the full, estimated amount of the reclamation cost in advance, or the company can purchase a bond from a reputable (and state-approved) bonding agency. With a bond in place, the reclamation work will be paid for, even if the mining company becomes financially insolvent. Reclamation bonds are not cheap. They cost 0.5% to 2% of the bond amount, each year. For a $50 million estimated reclamation cost, for example, the company would pay $1 million per year to keep the bond in place. If the company defaults on its bond payment, the permit to operate would be revoked and shut-down and reclamation would begin immediately. Mining-related Superfund sites are a sad legacy of the pre-financial assurance days.
Edit for @dingusM: the financial assurance requirement is for all mines, regardless of whether they're on public or private land.
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