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Dos XX
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 16, 2011 - 02:34pm PT
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[with apologies to Largo]
In the course of my work as a specialist in the field of Rock Mechanics, I spend a lot of time in tunnels, mines and quarries -- sometimes helping to keep the rocks safely in place, and sometimes devising the safest and most efficient way to blow them up. Mining is...well...messy. As someone who puts John Muir at the top of my list of heroes and spiritual mentors, I guess I've found a way to personally reconcile a love and appreciation of Nature, and our seemingly insatiable need for more stuff from Mother Earth.
I think about this a lot and once did a thought experiment, imagining what life would be like without mining (defined here as deriving benefit from anything mineral extracted from the ground). I eventually arrived at a mental picture of myself sitting in a dirt-floored hut made of sticks, wearing clothing made of woven plants. No stone tools for killing game or scraping hides, no stone-walled dwellings. And thinking of what seems so important to us today, there'd be no high-speed travel, no electronic communication, no computers or iPods, no recorded music, no Internet. Climbing and mountaineering as we know it, simply would not exist without synthetic ropes, camming devices, ice tools, etc, etc. All this cool stuff we've come to love, came from mining.
How do YOU reconcile your love of nature and wildness, with your love/need for stuff from beneath the Earth?
If you could personally re-shape HOW and WHERE mining is done, for the betterment of the environment, what do you think ought to be tried?
What changes in your government's policy toward mining would you like to see?
Illustration from the first textbook on mining, "De re metallica", by Georgius Agricola, published in 1556.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Nov 16, 2011 - 02:44pm PT
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We need more mining engineers like you.
There is no problem taking from the Earth as long as you give more than you take.
Off-shore drilling, tundra drilling, open-pit mining: All good if responsibility for the environment is part of the engineering equation.
Sadly a few greedy, thoughtless, or at least unaware men have caused great damage in certain parts of the world. Others, who are also not thinking clearly incorrectly target the industry or the practice rather than the individual people who caused the mess.
Individuals are the problem. Enlightenment for those individuals is the solution.
My father was Geology Prof. I grew up poking around mines and road cuts with him. He too loved the outdoors and held the view of responsible use of resources.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 16, 2011 - 03:08pm PT
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Scientist, teacher, climber, environmentalist (long time Sierra Club member), element, mineral, rock, and meteorite collector. I even share the same B-day as a hero of mine, John Muir. Gee, he was into a lot of the same things too. How curious and unusual. And yes I'm a Christian too, and proud of it. Without Christ I would be nothing. I wouldn't even be here, and the things I love to do, the adventure, and natural study and science, and the people I love to be with, none of it would be possible. Theistic Evolution.
Mining is a necessary evil. We need resources, but we also need to do it in an environmentally and socially sound way. Very hard to do.
I believe we can accomplish it best ultimately off Earth. Asteroid mining. Go after the ones that threaten us first and fly by the Earth (NEOs). One day we will. And we will do it profitably. There is technology out there that we can use right now that will get us to Mars/Asteroid belt and back before lunch. TPTB hide it selfishly away.
I love to look for, discover, find unique, beautiful, and rare natural resources. I get a lot of pleasure in that.
By the way, look up how many elements, minerals, rock types, special natural resource treasures, and even mining procedures are mentioned in The Good Book. You will be amazed. By the way, who taught us how to mine and do metallurgy? Read the Book of Enoch.
Edit:
By the way, I enjoy exploring old mines, and have explored many over the years. I also enjoy looking though the mine tailings and determining what they were going after, and then collecting best samples.
Hint: Never forget your high-power shortwave UV lamp and your black barbecue grill cover (day-time UV rock collecting insta-tent), you'd be amazed how many minerals fluoresce. Flourescence is another "Ooooohhhh AAaaawwweeee" bang for your collecting buck.
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Dos XX
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 16, 2011 - 07:58pm PT
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A self-serving BUMP to get "Mind?" and "Mined"? back together on the front page.
I'm kind of surprised there hasn't been a lot of discussion in this thread so far -- there are over 1,700 postings on S.Topo that mention mining. I was hoping that more of the bright minds who visit this forum would offer innovative ideas on how they would deal with the environment vs. mining dilemma.
@spider
Yes, someone once told me that the mining industry needed more Sierra Club members in it; they were not being facetious when they said it, and I think I get it.
@klimmer
Mining other bodies in the Solar System may hold some promise, though the energy cost of getting a hauler+ its return fuel out of the Earth's atmosphere & gravity would be prohibitively expensive with current spacecraft technology. On the other hand, de-energizing a loaded hauler is not very costly, as the Earth's atmosphere does a pretty good job at that. If a hauler could be constructed extra-terrestrially and the fuel produced extra-terrestrially also, that would take care of a lot of the energy cost. Your suggestion did remind me of a bumper sticker I see from time to time -- usually in rural areas of Nevada and Wyoming. It's intentionally inflammatory, but always makes me smile.
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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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Nov 16, 2011 - 09:16pm PT
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I'm a mining engineer as well. I specialize in mine ventilation and block caving (underground mass mining), and have been lucky enough to travel to operations in Portugal, Spain, Chile, and Indonesia in my career.
As a ventilation engineer, one of my goals is energy conservation - mine ventilation can take up to 50% of a mine's power cost. So implementing technologies that reduce consumption while maintaining a safe, healthy environment is a challenge that I constantly faced.
At my last position, at one of countries largest underground mines, I implemented biodiesel fuel and other emissions reductions measures which combined reduced particulate emissions by 75%, as production increased. Mining companies realize that energy, environmental footprints, and social issues are concerns and most (there are bad actors in every industry) are addressing these concerns.
@Dingus - usually you are sensible, however in this case you are off base. No company in any industry would accept a taking of 100% top line, gross revenue. Hell, Zimbabwe isn't even that ridiculous. A more sensible proposal would be a small percentage (1%-ish) NSR (Net Smelter Return) Offtake to a state fund, or something of the like, in addition to the initial reclamation bond. Mining companies in the US are required to post reclamation bonds for projects and expansions that (in theory at least) would cover the cost of reclamation of disturbed land.
Thanks for posting, Dos XX
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Nov 16, 2011 - 09:25pm PT
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I work in mining's evil sister's industry, oil and gas, so understand the conundrum, and public criticist/derision.
//How do YOU reconcile your love of nature and wildness, with your love/need for stuff from beneath the Earth?//
We can't live on the earth without having an impact on the environment, it is utterly impossible. Breathing, eating, shelter, heating, clothing, sh@tting, all of those activities have an impact.
To me the reconsiliation comes from learning from mans mistakes, and improving our practices and technology to improve safety to workers, those living near mines, and to the environment. There is something dreadfully wrong when the US has the highest safety and environmental standards in the world, and the environmental movement would prefer to shut down mining and oil and gas work to have it go overseas, where the standards aren't as strictly enforced. That hurts us on multiple fronts. We import more materials, we lose jobs, and we loose the technology development and support industry. We should be proud to have the safest and cleanest mines in the world, not ashamed of the industry.
If you could personally re-shape HOW and WHERE mining is done, for the betterment of the environment, what do you think ought to be tried?
As far as re-shaping how, the emphasis should be on minimum impact, minimizing the use of toxic chemicals, tailings segregation to prevent toxic runoff and complete remediation. Nothing to be done about where, the minerals are where they are. If they can be mined with minimal environmental impact, go get them, if not, let them stay where they are until technology has reached the point where they can be safely and economically produced.
What changes in your government's policy toward mining would you like to see?
I'd liek to see the government encourage domestic production of minerals, same with oil and gas.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Nov 16, 2011 - 09:49pm PT
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Interesting question but I feel that in populated states like Colorado, it is a moot question at this point in time. There's still gold in the old mines, I've seen it with my own eyes while exploring various mines in Colorado with my geologist father. However, even at today's high prices, it isn't profitable to take it out, especially with environmentalists filing lawsuits everywhere to prevent it.
Ironically those same environmentalists are able to drive into Lead King Basin right next to the Snowmass Wilderness Area, instead of spending two days of hiking to get there, thanks to a road put in by my father to haul equipment up to his mines there.
My sister and I own about 25 acres each of patented mining claims thanks to his efforts and feel it is our responsibility to be good stewards of that land. Since his death, we have done our best to haul this equipment back out and recycle it ,and I have agreed to let the state put up a locked metal grating on all the mines on our property, the funding of which comes from a tax paid for by the few mines (mostly coal mines) still operating in Colorado.
These grates have openings however for bats to come and go as a conservation measure. I would say this is generally the way things are going with mining in Colorado.
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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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Nov 16, 2011 - 10:10pm PT
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It's funny, Jan. There's two operating gold mines in Colorado that are public knowledge at least - one is the gigantic Cripple Creek (Cresson) pit. The other is a tiny high grade vein near Lake City. There are some folks trying to open up historical mines around Clear Creek County, but its not cheap to do. There's still a lot of gold and silver around in the state, but its not easy to get mines in or reopened.
I agree that you'd think with our high standards, the US would rather encourage mining here than in places like Africa. But look at discussions around Resolution Mine near Queen Creek in Arizona on Mountain Project, and you'll see the typical NIMBY attitude that is pervasive in the country, nevermind a top tier, responsible company is developing the project.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Nov 16, 2011 - 10:14pm PT
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Yup, mines are important. Ya have yer mines, and you have your MINES!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Nov 16, 2011 - 10:18pm PT
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I'm sure the Colorado mines will shut again as soon as the price of gold goes back down which inevitably it will do as we get a handle on the economy and begin to recover from 10 years of war. The last time gold was worth mining in Colorado was the 1970's, when gold went high as the economy stumbled paying for the Vietnam War of the previous decade.
My father always maintained though that if there ever was another great depression, people with mining property could pan enough and hand pick enough to survive if it came to that.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Nov 16, 2011 - 10:19pm PT
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I hate to see people go all rabid on mining operations with the "not in my back yard" attitude. That just sends the miners to some third world country where the officials can be bribed into screwing the local population.
It is the responsibility of those who take wealth from the Earth to pay a fair share to those who make sacrifices. Also to take measures to minimize the impact of dust, noise, toxins, artificial lighting, etc.
This may be completely unreal to some people but I see no reason why we could not develop technology to pull crude out of the ground and pipe it away without spilling a drop.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Nov 16, 2011 - 10:21pm PT
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I figure off-planet mining is going to be for off-planet activities.
Moving cargo up and down the gravity well is costly. I think it will be easier to just go out there and live, then move our bodies on and off planet to enjoy the lovely pleasures of Earth.
When we get to the stage of technology of mining the moon & asteroids, the same tech may also help us more cleanly exploit the resources here.
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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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Nov 16, 2011 - 10:41pm PT
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You don't see things like this in other industries. Poor pic, but this is a gigantic crystal in Chile - about 20 inches in diameter and 20 feet long. Many were taken to a corporate headquarters, but these were left in the locked cavern and it was bypassed in the mine plan.
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laughingman
Ice climber
Seattle WA
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Nov 17, 2011 - 12:34am PT
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I find it rather disturbing that the hard rock mining l in the United States have not changed since the late 1870s.
The law was written 137 years ago times have changed so should mining laws.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Nov 17, 2011 - 12:49am PT
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Then there's my mother's take based on her experience with my father.
"A mine is a hole in the ground that you pour money into and nothing much but mud ever comes out".
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Nov 17, 2011 - 09:31am PT
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Successful mining does require a great deal of luck. Geologists can tell you all about where and how valuable resources occur, but few can just go out and dig a hole and find a mother lode. Otherwise, they'd be rich.
I think the luck/failure factor may me a major reason why the government has gone easy on mining all these years.
That being said, I don't know the actual numbers, but I think mining operations should probably pay a higher royalty. For the most part, that land out there isn't just theirs, it's ours.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Nov 17, 2011 - 12:49pm PT
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Freeport - McMoRan
Grasport mine. Eating away at Carstenz' Pyramid (Puncak Jaya) in Papua.
-4.078889,137.158333
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MikeL
climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
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Nov 17, 2011 - 02:23pm PT
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Dos XX: //How do YOU reconcile your love of nature and wildness [sic], with your love/need for stuff from beneath the Earth?//
Reconciliation isn't possible, and I think it is unskillful to be looking for permanent solutions ever. It's instructive to be out-of-balance, guilt-ridden, and troubled by these things. Being out-of-balance or troubled informs us of who we are or who we want to be.
Nice thread.
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ydpl8s
Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
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Nov 17, 2011 - 02:55pm PT
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It is a problem with many quandries. As a geophysicist, I've done a lot of exploratory work for both the mining and oil&gas companies. The truth is that there have always been companies that will get away with as much as they can to enhance profit. There are also companies that are better stewards of the land, but often not until they are "nudged" to do so. It's often a bad situation that starts with the "not in my backyard" mentality. If we push too hard and shut down all exploration in a richer, more aware country, and subsequently make it too expensive to work there, then the exploration is moved to countries where regulation is not as strict. This unfortunately usually harms the poor people of that less developed country more than it would us, as we pass the buck to despot leaders and their desperate minions.
This new global economy has created this situation for all types of businesses, the sweatshops that build your iphones and sew your Nike gear, as well as those working in the mines in 3rd world countries.
I wish I had an answer, but I think that everyone willing to do with a little less material goods and trying to keep humanitarian and conservation standards equal the world over would help a lot.
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Dos XX
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 17, 2011 - 03:51pm PT
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Wow. Plenty of insightful observations here. I wish we were all together, lounging comfortably on a sunny patio, sipping our favourite beverage while we toss ideas back and forth. There's a lot I'd like to say in response to what has been so thoughtfully written, so I'll try to work my way through the thread as time permits.
@dingusM
This gets back to a comment made by @mikeL also: "reconciliation" may not be the right word to describe how folks like us, lovers of beautiful places and wildness (this actually is the word I wanted to use, @mikeL), also go about our lives as not insignificant consumers of Earth's resources. Our consumption inevitably causes degradation of beautiful places and wildness. I suppose I seek finding a livable balance of preservation and impact, because as @mikeL observes, we at times feel we may be out-of-balance. One of the best tests of one's convictions about preservation, I think, is how we conduct ourselves when no one is looking. It's disheartening, for example, to see trash stuffed in nooks and crannies in areas frequented almost exclusively by climbers, like certain bouldering areas at Stoney Point. When I see this at Stoney, I have to tell myself it must have been done by non-climbers. But the trash stuffed into nooks and crannies on popular El Cap routes like the Nose and Salathe, could have come only from climbers.
Back to another of your comments, @dingusM, regarding financial responsibility for clean-up of mine sites. @Dave alluded to the most common way that this is handled nowadays, namely bonding. I can only speak from experience in California about how this works. By law, all active mining operations in California have to have a state-approved reclamation plan, and a condition for getting a reclamation plan approved is providing financial assurance that the reclamation work will be carried out and paid for. A company could give the state the full, estimated amount of the reclamation cost in advance, or the company can purchase a bond from a reputable (and state-approved) bonding agency. With a bond in place, the reclamation work will be paid for, even if the mining company becomes financially insolvent. Reclamation bonds are not cheap. They cost 0.5% to 2% of the bond amount, each year. For a $50 million estimated reclamation cost, for example, the company would pay $1 million per year to keep the bond in place. If the company defaults on its bond payment, the permit to operate would be revoked and shut-down and reclamation would begin immediately. Mining-related Superfund sites are a sad legacy of the pre-financial assurance days.
Edit for @dingusM: the financial assurance requirement is for all mines, regardless of whether they're on public or private land.
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d-know
Trad climber
electric lady land
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Nov 17, 2011 - 03:55pm PT
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data.
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Dos XX
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 17, 2011 - 03:58pm PT
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One more thing...
Where's Sprock when you need him/her??? I've found that there's a lot of substance behind all that hoo-hah, you just need the secret decoder ring. My decoder ring might not be 100% effective all the time, but I see the substance more often than not.
Calling Dr.Sprock...
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MikeL
climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
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Nov 17, 2011 - 04:54pm PT
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Yeah, Dos, it's funny how we read things and make up our worlds. I automatically put in the "er" and made up my own meaning (and sort of made you up, too). Sorry about that.
I didn't mean to put words in your mouth. (It's unsanitary.)
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TwistedCrank
climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
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Nov 17, 2011 - 05:32pm PT
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Let at them trucks. The look like ants.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Nov 17, 2011 - 06:36pm PT
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To me this ultimately comes down to equilibrium. The Earth is big, but it is finite. If we are consuming in such a way as to exhaust or permanently damage the resources, and not contributing anything to offset the impact, we are on the road to nowhere.
People seldom think things through to their ultimate conclusion because today's issues always win out. Taking the mineral resources can be ok, as long as the impact is mitigated somehow and there is as much resuse as possible of what has been already extracted. If we never reach equilibrium in consumption we will eventually due irreversable harm.
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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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Nov 17, 2011 - 11:05pm PT
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Nov 17, 2011 - 11:37pm PT
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Any of you guys rock hounds?
Here. Been too busy though and would rather climb:-( Love to go walkabout in the desert digging and searching. Love it.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 18, 2011 - 12:47am PT
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Great movie about mining He-3 from the Moon for Fusion nuclear reactor energy production back on Earth or Moon (a future possibility???), which is supposed to be better than using 3^H (Tritium) for the Fusion reaction. Very interesting story. You can stream it at NetFlix.
"Moon" - Official Trailer [HQ]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twuScTcDP_Q
http://www.sonyclassics.com/moon/
Moon's Helium-3 Could Power Earth
http://fti.neep.wisc.edu/gallery/pdf/space_com063000.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helium-3
Mining the Moon (Great Article)
Lab experiments suggest that future fusion reactors could use helium-3 gathered from the moon.
http://www.technologyreview.com/Energy/19296/
Mining The Moon
An Apollo astronaut argues that with its vast stores of nonpolluting nuclear fuel, our lunar neighbor holds the key to Earth's future. However, before we mine it, we'll need to determine who owns the moon?
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/space/moon-mars/1283056
Who Owns the Moon? The Case for Lunar Property Rights
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/space/moon-mars/4264325
2 books I've read that I highly recommend that discuss ET mining in detail:
Mining The Sky: Untold Riches From The Asteroids, Comets, And Planets (Helix Book) [Paperback] John S. Lewis (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/Mining-Sky-Untold-Asteroids-Planets/dp/0201328194/ref=wl_it_dp_o_npd?ie=UTF8&coliid=I3DONIN6P1JTAO&colid=2GL3DFQ4AXH2G
The Case for Mars: The Plan to Settle the Red Planet and Why We Must [Paperback] Robert Zubrin (Author) Richard Wagner (Contributor)
http://www.amazon.com/Case-Mars-Plan-Settle-Planet/dp/145160811X/ref=wl_it_dp_o_npd?ie=UTF8&coliid=I3FOEXRVWDGHXP&colid=2GL3DFQ4AXH2G
More reason to get out to the asteroid belt and mine the nearly limitless resouces there. No one is gonna miss a few asteriods and the bad environmental ethics, damage to mother Earth, and political strife can all be avoided. Besides, think of the adventure that ET mining would bring. Way cool.
“The asteroids that are potentially the most hazardous because they can closely approach the Earth are also the objects that could be most easily exploited for raw materials. These raw materials could be used in developing the space structures and in generating the rocket fuel that will be required to explore and colonize our solar system in the twenty-first century. By closely investigating the compositions of asteroids, intelligent choices can be made as to which ones offer the richest supplies of raw materials. It has been estimated that the mineral wealth resident in the belt of asteroids between the orbits of Mars and Jupiter would be equivalent to about 100 billion dollars for every person on Earth today. “
http://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/?why_asteroids
http://ngec.arc.nasa.gov/files/ngec_proceedings/speakers/Lewis_Asteroids.pdf
Related thread:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1664065/Our-Cell-Phones-Are-Killing-People-Blood-Minerals
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tuolumne_tradster
Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
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Nov 18, 2011 - 02:07am PT
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Interesting thread Dos XX. I'm a geologist and have worked in the oil & gas, mining, and ground water remediation industries over the last 30 years. Geologists are sort of like "drug dealers" where the drugs are fossil fuels, raw materials, precious metals, etc. and the addicts are developed or developing nations trying to create or maintain a standard of living that is becoming increasingly unsustainable.
//How do YOU reconcile your love of nature and wildness, with your love/need for stuff from beneath the Earth?//
Mining operations are large earth moving enterprises where >90% of what is removed is waste. It's nearly impossible to do this without negatively impacting the environment. Personally I would be happy to live with less to preserve environmental quality but that's a fairy tale notion.
If you could personally re-shape HOW and WHERE mining is done, for the betterment of the environment, what do you think ought to be tried?
Where & How mining is done depends on the value of the ore and where it's located (e.g., Developed nation VS 3rd world country). Here are some examples...
Elemental sulphur mine in the Ijen crater Indonesia (photo courtesy whimsicalbunneh on flickr)
(photo courtesy whimsicalbunneh on flickr)
"Las hormigas" at Serra Pelada, Brazil
Athabasca tar sand open pit mines (Keystone pipeline). Society has made a value call to sacrifice this land for energy production. There's no way to undo the damage that is being done to these areas, let alone the enormous carbon footprint for this type of operation.
Also, the USGS and Afghanistan Geological Survey estimates of known and undiscovered copper resources total nearly 60 million metric tons. Resources of iron in known deposits are more than 2,200 million metric tons of iron ore. Twenty mineralized areas, including significant deposits of Rare Earth elements, were identified that merit further study.
http://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/2007/3063/fs2007-3063.pdf
What changes in your government's policy toward mining would you like to see?
Oversight that protects miners, nearby community, and the environment. Another fairy tale notion.
It's hard to be very optimistic about the future our planet. Especially given the increasing world population, demand for raw materials and energy resources, and the devastating impact all this will have on future climate and environmental quality.
To quote Jim Morrison...
“I don't know what's going to happen but I wanna have my kicks before the whole sh#t house goes up in flames”
― Jim Morrison
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Nov 18, 2011 - 11:12pm PT
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Great posts above! ^^^
A positive attitude is the first step toward resolving the greatest problems.
Here is one I have not heard much about. I figure just about any landfill prior to 2005 is filled with a fortune in recyclable metals and other resources. I would think some people could get mighty wealthy digging up and processing those things.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Nov 19, 2011 - 01:29am PT
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Spider-
I too have thought that would happen at some time in the future.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 19, 2011 - 01:31am PT
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Well, there are a number of mines where they're now re-processing the tailings, and making money doing so. Although such operations are often combined with re-opening the mine itself, as ore reserves grow or become more recoverable.
Reprocessing a garbage dump would be relatively simple, apart from the tendency of governments to build things on top of them.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 19, 2011 - 05:31pm PT
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Sometimes the mining world makes out of this world geologic discoveries that just make us go AAaaawwwwweeeeeeeeee . . .
How many more caverns of crystals out there like this or perhaps even more spectacular are there? It would be incredible to know.
A rare glimpse of the cave of crystals
Mexico's Cave of Crystals stunned geologists when it was first discovered in 2000. The underground chamber contains some of the largest natural crystals ever found - some of the selenite structures have grown to more than 10m long. Professor Iain Stewart got a rare glimpse of the subterranean spectacle while filming for the new BBC series How the Earth Made Us.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8466493.stm
A longer feature film of the same . . .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lfLm8jVZTY
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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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Nov 19, 2011 - 06:16pm PT
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And guess what ... You'd never see them otherwise ...
More cool sh#t brought to you by mining... (nevermind your phone, your car, your computer...)
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Dos XX
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 21, 2011 - 10:41am PT
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Thanks, @dave, for sharing your real-world images from Chile and Grasberg. Very few people have seen giant crystals in-person, as you have.
And @nutjob and @klimmer for more info on the potential for extra-terrestrial mining. We may be going to look for Unobtainium sooner than we might have expected!
@hightraverse's posting of the Google Earth image of Grasberg showed what looks to me like the surface manifestation of a block caving operation (up on the ridge, east of the open pit mine). I'd like to comment on block caving that extends to the surface, on a later posting. I'm guessing that @dave has had some experience with the Grasberg block caving operation.
@fortmental and @laughingman both made comments regarding what is known as the Mining Law of 1872, which governs certain aspects of mineral project development on land owned by the U.S. government. Trying to describe it as concisely as I can, the Mining Law of 1872 gives each United States citizen over age 18 the right to make an ownership claim on certain "locatable" minerals on United States-owned land. Locatable minerals include gold, silver, copper, lead, molybdenum, titanium, and a few others. The rights to recover "common" minerals such as clay, gypsum, aggregate, and energy minerals such as coal and oil shale, are governed by other laws and regulations. Under the Mining Law of 1872, any adult U.S. citizen can stake a mineral claim on land managed by the U.S. Bureau of Land Management, or even the U.S. Forest Service, with exceptions being land designated as wilderness, or withdrawn for environmental reasons such as the presence of threatened or endangered species. Staking a claim, however, does not give one all the entitlements necessary to start a mining operation: multiple permits (reclamation, water quality, air quality, Corps of Engineers, Fish and Game) must still be obtained from various federal, state and local agencies.
There are two aspects of the Mining Law of 1872 that have brought the law under scrutiny in recent years: 1) the fact the U.S. government receives no direct compensation for the value of locatable minerals recovered from U.S. lands, and 2) potential for abuse of the "patenting" of mineral claims.
Regarding issue 2) a claim holder may petition the government to grant full ownership (patented) rights to the surface land inside the boundaries of a mineral claim. The original intent of this aspect of the Law of 1872 was to provide a convenient and (financially) secure place to construct and operate ancillary facilities such as processing mills and administrative offices for mining operations. There have been instances, however, when patented land was turned over to non-mineral business entities for non-mining development projects. While theoretically still possible under the law, patenting of mineral claims has pretty much come to a halt because the U.S. Bureau of Land Management has slowed or stopped processing patent applications; this was essentially an administrative solution to the problem of potential patent abuse, but not necessarily a permanent solution.
Issue 1) pits the desire to incentivize business development in the U.S. against a sense of receiving fair compensation for mineral resources owned by the People of the United States. One could make the argument that companies compensate the federal government for their extraction of minerals on U.S. land, by paying income taxes on profits. But, if Company X owned many mining operations (or non-mining business operations) all around the country, and was on the whole just breaking even or in the red, then even if one particular gold mining operation on BLM land was wildly profitable, the government would receive no compensation for the minerals extracted. Personally, I'm in favor of a modest severance tax, in the 3%-4% range, to be levied against gross revenues from locatable minerals recovered at a specific mine on federal land. I'd like to see the proceeds of such a tax go directly to funds-starved agencies that manage and protect wild and beautiful places, such as the National Park Service, and U.S. Forest Service.
When changes to the Mining Law of 1872 are proposed, resistance from the mineral industry can be pretty intense. As an example of just how big the issue of mineral taxation can become in public policy debate, it has been front-page news in Australia for the last two years, and in fact brought down one government. I understand the need to promote mineral development in the U.S. vs driving businesses to go abroad, but I believe a few, modest changes to the law would go a long way to establishing greater fairness for all concerned.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Nov 21, 2011 - 12:14pm PT
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Mining companies may fight for the most amount of profit but they are going to need to change their ways to survive. Unless they offer up a high level of financial transparency AND environmental responsibility they are going to be continuously blocked by environmentalists and taken over by dictators as in Venezuela.
The social justice movement that is sweeping the world definitely applies to mining. Smart leaders in mining will do well to the degree they respond proactively.
The personal energy and creativity required to extract mineral wealth must include spreading that wealth to the surrounding people and to the land and it's other natural resources; wildlife, water systems, and flora.
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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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Nov 21, 2011 - 07:48pm PT
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Dos XX - Excellent summary of the 1872 Mining Law. it has been slightly changed over the years to add fees to hold claims. In addition, the Interior Dept. has had a moratorium on patenting of claims for many years.
I agree, a modest NSR royalty for new mines would go a long way toward moderating the rhetoric. Many older mines, even in the current high price environment are high cost marginal producers and a new, unplanned top line royalty would quite possibly do them in, along with the many good jobs they sustain. However, correctly applied (new mines, new expansions), I believe it is a reasonable compromise.
Yes, I've spent a little bit of time at Grasberg. It is planned to convert the pit to a block cave by 2017, and the other expression is the DOZ block cave mine - they total 240,000 ore tons per day, which will all be from underground by 2016-2017. There is another underground mine operating, one more under development, and yet another planned. Absolutely incredible place to see - photos can never do it justice. It is sad that the strikes have turned violent on all sides and that the military is such a presence there.
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MH2
climber
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Nov 22, 2011 - 12:17am PT
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I know a mining engineer. I heard a woman once ask him what mining was like. His answer: "We cut down any trees, dig a huge hole in the ground, poison everything for miles around, and leave."
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Dos XX
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 22, 2011 - 08:28am PT
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It's nice to see some good guys n' gals in the mining business. This family-owned quarry decided to become 100% solar powered, entirely on their own initiative.
http://www.northbaybusinessjournal.com/33807/a-100-solar-powered-quarry/
Rock crushing is very energy intensive, but during the sunniest months of Summer their solar panel array actually feeds power back into the grid, even while the crushing plant is running at full capacity.
What the article does not mention is that this quarry carries out simultaneous reclamation of mined areas, rather than delaying reclamation until the mine is depleted (which their permit allows). Simultaneous reclamation is also done on their own initiative.
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Dos XX
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 22, 2011 - 12:39pm PT
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RE: Mtn Pass
It's great to see the US get back into producing its own Rare Earths.
True story:
I spent some time with the folks at Mt.Pass about 5 years ago when the whole operation was in suspension, due mainly to rare earths operations in China taking over the world market. Here's how that came about: in the mid 1980s a delegation of geologists and metallurgists came from China as part of the "warming up" of relations between the US and China. One stop on their tour of western US mining operations was a visit to the Rare Earth operation at Mt.Pass. The folks at Molycorp were proud of their mine and mill, and happy to help out their friends at the USGS who were sponsoring the Chinese. The visitors took copious notes and photos, with notable enthusiasm. Within 5 years China was developing some of the world's richest rare earths deposits, and within a decade Molycorp's operation at Mt.Pass was out of business.
A couple of years ago, I was contacted by a nice lady from the Riverside (CA) chamber of commerce, who asked if I knew anyone at Molycorp who could arrange a tour at Mt.Pass for some geologists and engineers from China. I politely explained to the woman why that wasn't gonna happen.
Edit:
It's not my intention here to rail against China, its people, or their mineral industry. It is Mother Earth who gave the planet's richest known rare earth deposits to the inhabitants of China. And for the record, Molycorp had some environmental mishaps at Mt.Pass which contributed to their decision to the mothball the operation in the mid-1990s. The conditions which contributed to the environmental issues have since been rectified.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 24, 2011 - 02:29am PT
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When the Molycorp Mountain Pass mine was down several years ago, because of the cheap price of REEs from China, and also because of environmental compliance etc., the Fluorescent Mineral Society (FMS) did a field-trip there with permission.
http://uvminerals.org/fms/about-fluorescent-mineral-society
We got a great behind the scenes presentation by the company, got to see large vials of the different REEs separated by elemental oxide (patented processing, they didn't go into any detail on the process of oxide separation). Very colorful oxides and each glass container was extremely heavy (lots of mass).
Anyway, we got an all-day opportunity to go to several large tailings from the mine and look for great specimens of Bastnasite using our black plastic BBQ grill covers as insta-dark tents with powerful UV lamps in hand. The mineral is mined and then processed/separated into the different REEs, (LREEs and HREEs). Turns out that the mineral Bastnasite fluoresces nicely and very uniquely. I got a good deal of really good specimens. Very cool.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Pass_rare_earth_mine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bastn%C3%A4site
We turned on the guys of the mine to the wonderful world of fluorescence. Hopefully they put a cabinet together with strong SW UV lamps for display for their visitors. Don't know if they did, but they realized how cool fluorescent minerals are by the time we left. Another Ooooh-Aaawwwee, for the collecting buck.
Our "Mine-to-Magnets" Business Plan
http://www.molycorp.com/AboutUs/MineToMagnets.aspx
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Nov 24, 2011 - 04:11am PT
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Surely one of the reasons we're in Afghanistan is that huge deposits of rare earths
have been found there - large enough to rival China's.
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ruppell
climber
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Nov 24, 2011 - 04:18am PT
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I don't mine(or mind) because I solo chalk less and bear foot. Also I do it close to home. Interesting thing is people chalk up on limestone.? Oh well to each their own
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Nov 24, 2011 - 10:00am PT
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Nice post Klimmer!
Thankfully the USA has the Basin & Range for our mining and messy disposal facilities. In all the world it is a great resource. With the accordion action on the Earth's crust we get access to wonderful mineral & metal resources. AND with all those basins we have a reasonable place to dispose of our worst waste. It will take tens of millions of years for those basins to open up.
Better in our own back yard than someone else's.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 26, 2011 - 02:30am PT
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Gold fascinates. It's money, it's ornamental, and it has incredibly important industrial uses. It is a very useful and unique element.
I think we should go back to a Gold standard for backing our money. It makes sense to me. Anyway . . .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold
Now we understand much about how the Solar System formed from a protoplanetary disk surrounding our newly born star ignited by fusion of H into He, about 5 Billions years ago. All elements, (indeed the entire Periodic Table) comes from stars that have gone Supernova. We are indeed made from "star dust." The planets accreted from dust, meteoroids, asteroids, planetesimals etc. pulling together and from violent continual bombardments. OK we know this, or we think we know this. It is our model.
But how did "The Royal Group," group (11) of the periodic table, especially Gold, come to be concentrated within our Earth's crust at the end of this process?
2 different understandings and theories:
Economic Geology-4350
A Brief Guide to the Geology Of Ore Deposits
By
Ron Morton
http://www.d.umn.edu/~pmorton/geol5350/2009/econclassnotes2009.pdf
Meteors Delivered Gold to Baby Earth, New Study Hints
Greenland rocks support theory for how our precious metals arrived.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2011/09/110907-gold-metals-earth-meteors-oldest-rocks-nature-science/
8 September 2011 Last updated at 13:24 ET
Meteorites delivered gold to Earth
By Leila Battison
Science reporter
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-14827624
The original research paper:
The tungsten isotopic composition of the Earth’s mantle before the terminal bombardment
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v477/n7363/full/nature10399.html
I think the truth is that both theories together are correct. The concentration of Gold in the Earth's crust is a little of both processes. Not any one theory of the 2 explains it all, in my opinion. But the two together explains much.
Googled: "Asteroids meteorites delivered gold to Earth"
http://www.google.com/search?q=asteroids+meteorites+delivered+gold+to+Earth&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-Address&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7GPEA_enUS302
Very interesting. If this is how it happened on Earth, one of the 4 terrestrial planets, then it happened the same way for the other terrestrial planetary bodies as well, including our Moon and Mars.
"There's Gold in them thar meteoroids and asteroids, and even in them thar terrestrial like planetary bodies."
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Nov 26, 2011 - 10:14am PT
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I don't think a return to the gold standard is a good idea.
It's a nice metal but why give it such artificial value?
Money is just a symbol for energy in fact not a symbol for matter. It represents the work that you do to obtain matter, not so much the matter itself.
I favor an advanced form of currency that is itself energy such as purely electronic currency.
The more we can build up civilization around a purely electro-magnetic system of communication and data storage, the softer we can tread on the Earth.
eg. Less gold mines. Look at all the chemical waste that is not happening thanks to digital photography, etc. etc.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 26, 2011 - 12:37pm PT
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I think after we answer the question is there life off of Earth, on Mars, or some other place in our Solar System we will then be gearing up for natural resources. Its inevitable. In fact, I think we have already started.
I think we will at the least find microbial life on Mars and then even contemporarily. In fact, I think we already did back in the 70s with the Viking Missions. NASA and the US government is just too scared to admit it, or they have other nefarious reasons for delaying the truth. Read Dr. Gilbert V. Levin's (co-author) book, Mars The Living Planet.
Mars: The Living Planet [Bargain Price] [Hardcover]
Barry E. DiGregorio (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/Mars-Living-Planet-Barry-DiGregorio/dp/B005ZOFKI8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1322330667&sr=8-1
Dr. Gilbert Levin's website:
http://gillevin.com/mars.htm
It’s Time to Realize There Is Life on Mars
Gilbert V. Levin
http://gillevin.com/Mars/EARTHComment_8=9-10.pdf
Remember, the Asteroid Belt is loaded with incredible resources (see NASA qoute posted before). You think we aren't going to go out there and get some? There is a race to the Moon now between many countries. Its gonna happen. And yes, there is a plethora of Gold out there and many other strategic and useful metals for all kinds of technology and clean renewable energy production. We need it in-situ for living off Earth primarily first, but I think eventually natural resources will come home to Earth also. It just makes sense once we figure out how to do it as cost effective as possible.
I think we already have the technology to do it. A very well known AF officer in the know once said, "We have the technology to take ET back home already."
We don't have to keep soiling and trashing our homeworld. No one is gonna miss a few asteroids. We need resources. Its gonna happen. I think sooner than later.
The MSL is on its way to Mars this morning (11-26-2011) . . .
NASA launches super-size Mars rover to red planet
By MARCIA DUNN | AP – 21 mins ago.
http://news.yahoo.com/nasa-launches-super-size-mars-rover-red-planet-150436037.html
Many cameras on-board the MSL are designed and built by Mike Malin’s MSSS company here in San Diego. Mike is a really, really interesting man. I wonder what secrets he knows about Mars. No one else on the face of Earth has more images of Mars and up close and in high resolution. And he spends unbelievable amounts of time looking over them with magnifiers and perhaps in stereo. The things he must have seen already . . .
Mike Malin: The Mars observer
How the reclusive Mike Malin changed the way that scientists view Mars.
Eric Hand
21 November 2011
http://www.nature.com/news/mike-malin-the-mars-observer-1.9402
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Rattlesnake Arch
Social climber
Home is where we park it
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Nov 26, 2011 - 03:57pm PT
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Nov 26, 2011 - 10:06pm PT
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Last time there was a huge hub bub about undersea minerals and mining (Manganese nodules) it was all a cover story for snatching a Russian sub off the sea bottom. (Glomar Challenger)
What's the mystery motive this time?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Nov 28, 2011 - 01:22am PT
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We visited South Pass, WY in Aug. Pretty cool place.
Carissa gold mine...
My favorite place...
Goebels Brewery poster - "Pure elixir"...
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Dos XX
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2011 - 08:43am PT
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@reilly, that does look like a cool place. I've always wanted to stop and visit but never took the time. Thanks for sharing the pics.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 30, 2011 - 11:57pm PT
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Now I love the romance of the Wild West and the incredibly interesting stories of the mining "Boom Towns" and the search for Gold, Silver and other precious metals, and all the adventure stories that go along with that. I'm a big fan of all the "Man with No Name" spaghetti westerns etc.
But it really is a crux issue between the need for natural resources, and the preservation of our incredible natural resources, history, and scenic wilderness.
Case in point . . .
Bodie.
I think we should preserve the incredible interesting historical resource we have there. I love visiting Bodie. And even though it is in an arrested state of decay it has an incredible story to tell when you visit and you have the place nearly to yourself off-season. It's quite, lonely, and desolate. You can just feel the ghosts of time there. Incredible place to visit and just wander around trying to feel how it must of been to be there in it's hey day. I wouldn't want to see it change, even though "there is Gold in them thar hills."
AUGUST 18, 2011
Gold Fever Stirs Ghost Town
Proposal to Ease Land Protections Could Clear Path for New California Mine
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904070604576514482749037182.html
March 2008
The Technology of Mining Gold:
Introduction to Bodie’s Mineralogy
By
Michael H. Piat
http://www.bodiehistory.com/geology.htm
(I recall reading about/hearing about a portion of one of the mines deep in the hills of Bodie where they ran into rich concentrations of Gold in an excavated out "room of Gold." It was Gold all around on all the walls of the mined out excavated room. I would like to see images of that, but I haven't seen any. Not sure if any images of that "gold room" exist.)
Video: The Ecstacy of Gold: Bodie, CA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwRM3yWmRKk
Great digital images of Bodie:
http://www.lovethesepics.com/2011/02/ghost-town-bodie-historic-state-park/
"If a Bodie Meet a Bodie and a Bodie's Dry, Let a Bodie Treat a Bodie, Let Him Treat with Rye."
California's Bodie apparently was one of the roughest "Shoot em Up" Western Boom Towns of its time.
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MikeL
climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
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TFPU, Reilly. (Takes one back in time.)
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