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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 29, 2009 - 05:06pm PT
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All I can think of is the *incredible* change to the incredible hand crack at IC over the years.
Imagine if the rock on once unknown or untraveled climbs in YV or TM was soft as sandstone.
Imagine if the problems weren't with the crowds or the gumbies or those in over their heads because their topos make them feel confident-
...imagine if the now popular climbs were simply being destroyed, changed in character forever.
Is that what will happen to the sandstone?
Maybe it will/would happen anyway, it would just be slower without a ST guidebook?
So ST comes to the land of soft rocks-
how long before the ST guide is "blamed for the destruction of once pristine lines/areas"?
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jul 29, 2009 - 05:09pm PT
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I'll get one, does Ron already have his?
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tooth
Mountain climber
Guam
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Jul 29, 2009 - 05:10pm PT
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People are to blame for the destruction. The book is inert. Given enough time the rock will change on it's own with, or with the same 6 climbers doing the routes once a decade. This speeds things up possibly, but the route only has 100 ascents on it with soft rock. Wanna use em up this year, or over the next 10?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 29, 2009 - 05:15pm PT
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I was assured on the guidebook thread that IC rock is not the same as Zion.
DUHH!!!!!
Still, soft is soft, and obviously most climbers are in denial about the seriousness of the impact.
Look at the excessive restrictions in Canyonlands NP and ask yourself how long it will be before the park service in Zion has no choice but to address impacts here. What with the penduluming nature of in-park politics the result could be even more draconian.
Instead of our community being proactive we largely embody a "gold rush" attitude.
Nice to be near the front of the line, huh????
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 29, 2009 - 05:23pm PT
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that's actually almost funny Ron-
i guess it's true as anything else you could say here.
though we could also say that those cliffs are all really on their way to the sea floor, so none of it matters at all.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Jul 29, 2009 - 05:27pm PT
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Tooth, I don't know that it's fair to say that books are inert. Books are signs in an amalgam of people, much like a traffic light is a sign in a jumble of cars. It directs and points.
That's not to say that people don't have a choice with their actions.
But what would be interesting is if we could get metrics comparing the benefit of 'word of mouth' education and direction directly to 'guidebook' based education and direction and see if the delta between upswing in normal word of mouth traffic + magazine traffic + website traffic would mitigate by low impact teaching against an upswing in usage by merely a guidebook.
I know it's reductionistic to think along these lines, but it might at least qualify the real impact of books vs. other media/modes of communicating.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Jul 29, 2009 - 05:29pm PT
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My hunch based on having done a handful of what seem to be known as the ultraclassics is that free climbing in Zion will never become wildly popular like Indian Creek no matter how pretty the topo drawings are.
A glance at the routes page sez that this books (or is it Zion rock?) has taken the opposite tack of the other Supertopo guides wrt difficulty. About 80%ish of the routes seem to be 5.10 or harder.
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tomtom
Social climber
Seattle, Wa
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Jul 29, 2009 - 05:37pm PT
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All of the Desert Towers have fallen down since publication of the Taco.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno
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Jul 29, 2009 - 05:38pm PT
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Now there's an idea for guidebooks! Only publish routes of .10 or harder!
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Jul 29, 2009 - 05:40pm PT
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Yeah, if you don't lead hard 5.10 and don't like the softer stuff a free climbing trip to Zion won't be much fun. I don't know what to do about overuse of aid routes, but I doubt this guidebook will make things worse. The ten or so super popular lines have been well known for at least the last 15 years.
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Burt
Trad climber
Las Vegas, Nv
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Jul 29, 2009 - 06:19pm PT
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I think that the mystery of the most aid lines in the park kept a lot of people off of them. I know the top 5 routes see a major amount of use, and I have been climbing there for over 10 years and have seen first hand how destructive it has been on those routes. But with a "supertopo" of the routes, with the pitch lengths, placements, new ratings, the mystery is not quite gone but seriously lessened. The adventure of getting on a "Middendorf A4" or whatever with just a crappy paper topo that left much to the imagination is going to be lost, I am afraid to see some of the classic nailing pitches, where people who are new to the soft rock and not just "whacking in a pin" but trying to do so in some sort of constructive manner are going to get trashed fast. Zion is unlike the Valley, or Red Rock, really almost anywhere, it will not take the abuse that other areas have gotten. I agree with Ron, (I know way scary!!) But being out at the crags and on the walls, its sad to see the adventure being overtaken by topo loving, beta talking, 3rd stepping gumbies, and making sure that no stone is left unturned before blasting into there supertopo wall, IMHO paying no respect to the ones who laid the ground work so that the mighty walls where tamed. Chris Mac is a great guy, one of the nicest guys I have met, but I have never agreed with the whole supertopo thing, I just believe it is a huge mistake for the fragile (and super adventurous) places like Zion.
Kurt "Burt" Arend
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Jul 29, 2009 - 06:26pm PT
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Kurt (Burt?), the walls in the new guide are either free or clean aid.
About half of the climbs w/ aid indicated have been topoed on Rex's site (bigwall.com) with a lot of info (like pitch lengths, rack beta) and detailed drawings for many years.
The bulk of new info to my less knowledgable eye seems to be for free climbing.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 29, 2009 - 06:40pm PT
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Thanks Burt (I think).
I too made the mistake of thinking that if a route was clean and/or free that it would not be subject to degradation Melissa, but sadly it is not the case.
The routes still do wear, and the ubiquitous ankle biting is prematurely destroying the experience for those to come.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Jul 29, 2009 - 06:41pm PT
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I agree that the clean stuff still wears...my intent was to point out that the only Middendorf A4 in the book would probably have to be listed as 5.13 and most of us won't be able to touch it (or wouldn't want to) despite our evil gym climber/beta-hound intentions.
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Burt
Trad climber
Las Vegas, Nv
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Jul 30, 2009 - 12:52pm PT
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Melissa, I started looking at the book and your right to some degree, (i guess I need to look before writing) but we do need to ask ourselves, do we need to "supertopo" everything out there? Do we need to make it so all of the masses are well informed so that all they have to do is grab a "supertopo" and launch up the cliff? Can't we leave some mystery, some excitement, some adventure? Sometimes the hardest part of climbing in Zion was finding out how to get a hold of topos, find the approach, worry about the descent, it was a full adventure cragging area. I can remember when Chris and Ammon did Swoop Gimp in a push, the only topo floating around was the same one (reproduced on many pages) as the original. Ammon called me and needed a question answered about the route. They climbed the route super fast and in no way was my "beta" any type of help (those guys just kick major ass) but it left the adventure of the unknown still there. I just am afraid of the "dumbing down" of the sport that we all love. I have new routes in the park that I would hope that when they get repeated that they get repeated in a style that it was put up in. Not worrying about pitch lengths, ratings, or what size cam goes in at the crux, but following a beautiful line, enjoying the unknown, and paying respect to the ones that went before you. I am afraid that the masses are missing the point of climbing, climbing is dangerous, climbing will kill you if you fu*k up, adventure is what we all seek or we would all be home typing on a stupid computer, and if you can't accept that then please stay home. I tell my clients that, if a guide ever tells you that climbing is the safest thing out there, leave. Don't climb with them. Climbing is dangerous, but with knowledge we can limit those risks, but they will always be there. No supertopo, cut resistant rope, ultra cam, blah blah blah will change that. Look at the rock fall on temple crag? We can't stop it, so if you can't justify the risks, please go golfing, do something else, I mean that in the best possible way.
Hey Ron, I was with Flyn Brian putting up the route in the back of the Temple over by monkey finger a few years back. What a cool story you had about the route and what we had in store! Brian finally freed it at 12+ (hehehe) and just a wonderful experience. We all give you a lot of sh*t Ron but seriously, thank you for laying out the groundwork for some amazing climbs, I have enjoyed them, still enjoy them, and love watching others blazing there way into the unknown. Take care
Kurt "Burt" Arend
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 30, 2009 - 01:15pm PT
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Thanks Burt, yeah, we talked a bit.
Sounds like at least a few people "get it", but the genie is out of the bottle (and I'm certainly not initially blameless in this, but there is such a thing as a learning curve*) so now it becomes more incumbent upon us as a community to show a willingness to put environmental concerns before our own ambitions.
Will we rise to the occasion?
In truth, I doubt it; not without a whole new layer of regulation.
Its not that we ALL need it; likely just a minority, but since impact is cumulative the proverbial bad apples will spoil the batch.
Do we wait until things are blatantly destroyed and then wring our hands, or can we be more proactive?
I challenge the bolt clipping generation to grow up, to take a longer view, and to realize that Zion's greatest resource can not only NOT be catalogued, but by attempting to do so it dies a slow death.
(* I grant that the issue is complex, and believe that I substantially addressed it a quarter century ago in an article that appeared in the '85 AAJ.
There is certainly some grey here. I wonder how long I would have taken to discover Zion on my own without reading Jeff Lowe's article in Ascent,...)
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Burt
Trad climber
Las Vegas, Nv
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Jul 30, 2009 - 10:59pm PT
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I was just informed that Bryan Bird is the author of the Zion supertopo. Bryan and I have not seen eye to eye on some things but I have mad respect for what he has done in the park. He is one of the most prolific developers of our generation to Zion, and whether I agree with the supertopo thing or not I have to believe that Bryan is doing this for more than just financial gain, but for the good of climbers and the park. I read a lot of the books contents and route descriptions, and again I don't necessarily agree I understand the hard work that went into it. So congrats on your book Bryan I hope it does well. Just remember the heart of climbing involves danger, adventure, and a passion to push past what we thought was possible. Go find an adventure...
Kurt "Burt" Arend
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David Knopp
Trad climber
CA
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Jul 31, 2009 - 07:48pm PT
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hey Burt-please read this question carefully, no malice here at all... your line about 3rd stepping gumbies, etc was a bit frustrating to me. How do all of us 3rd stepping gumbies get our zion experience (if we want it)? I got my Yosemite experience by plugging away, following in the steps of the masters (my wife really) then leading, easier to harder. If i chose to do that in Zion would you welcome me and other gumbies?
I guess what i am saying is we were all gumbies at one time and have to take steps out on our own at some point.
I thank you all for your careful consideration, and Ron, i look forward to a thoughtful response to you, since you really are one of the masters of this soft stone.
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More Air
Big Wall climber
S.L.C.
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Jul 31, 2009 - 10:52pm PT
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Bert said:
Can't we leave some mystery, some excitement, some adventure?
That's one thing I miss, but for the last 15 years I've mostly stayed off the beated path, So for me there's still plenty of mystery and adventure out there...we talkin' sandstone! If you're willing to go climb some of the new routes in the ST guide, you'll find plenty of adventure. Bryan Byrd was very careful in his route selection and his ideas about preserving the place...tons of off the beaten path routes. Spreading climbers out with all of the new additions was IMO a good idea. No nailing routes were included. Kolob canyon was also left out.
Many of the Dave Jones classics on the East Temple and the Watchman & elsewhere rarely get done. Some haven't even had 2nd or 3rd ascents.
Do we need to make it so all of the masses are well informed so that all they have to do is grab a "supertopo" and launch up the cliff?
Point taken, but over the years, I've noticed that the same 5 or 6 trade routes are the only climbs that are crowded. Last April, over a prime weekend, I only saw one party climbing (Moonlight), so with the exception of a few routes, Zion IMO will be fine for a while. For those fearing wear & tear on the rocks, getting the Park Service involved would be a huge mistake.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 31, 2009 - 11:46pm PT
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Huge mistake for you maybe More Hot Air, but if banning stuff now until the technology AND protocol develops that would better conserve the resource for all the climbers to come then who is the selfish one? You've been spooning with flamer too long.
This whole "it will spread out the climbers" argument is so transparently self-serving. A sprayfest masquerading as an environmental movement!
The book will bring more climbers.
More climbers=more impact
What? "Spreading it out" is a good thing?
The reason that the same ol' routes get traffic is that they are the low hanging fruit.
For all climbers' vocalizations about challenge and maximum effort they are mostly just a bunch of lazy opportunists, going for the shortest approaches and easiest routes in order to get their adrenaline fix.
To answer you though, David; acquire the skills on a more resliliant medium before coming.
Zion just isn't for beginners for numerous reasons.
Learning to topstep is important, but more than "knowing", doing it is important.
Spreading out your placements reduces their number and, hence, impact.
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