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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 29, 2009 - 05:06pm PT
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All I can think of is the *incredible* change to the incredible hand crack at IC over the years.
Imagine if the rock on once unknown or untraveled climbs in YV or TM was soft as sandstone.
Imagine if the problems weren't with the crowds or the gumbies or those in over their heads because their topos make them feel confident-
...imagine if the now popular climbs were simply being destroyed, changed in character forever.
Is that what will happen to the sandstone?
Maybe it will/would happen anyway, it would just be slower without a ST guidebook?
So ST comes to the land of soft rocks-
how long before the ST guide is "blamed for the destruction of once pristine lines/areas"?
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jul 29, 2009 - 05:09pm PT
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I'll get one, does Ron already have his?
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tooth
Mountain climber
Guam
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Jul 29, 2009 - 05:10pm PT
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People are to blame for the destruction. The book is inert. Given enough time the rock will change on it's own with, or with the same 6 climbers doing the routes once a decade. This speeds things up possibly, but the route only has 100 ascents on it with soft rock. Wanna use em up this year, or over the next 10?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 29, 2009 - 05:15pm PT
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I was assured on the guidebook thread that IC rock is not the same as Zion.
DUHH!!!!!
Still, soft is soft, and obviously most climbers are in denial about the seriousness of the impact.
Look at the excessive restrictions in Canyonlands NP and ask yourself how long it will be before the park service in Zion has no choice but to address impacts here. What with the penduluming nature of in-park politics the result could be even more draconian.
Instead of our community being proactive we largely embody a "gold rush" attitude.
Nice to be near the front of the line, huh????
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 29, 2009 - 05:23pm PT
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that's actually almost funny Ron-
i guess it's true as anything else you could say here.
though we could also say that those cliffs are all really on their way to the sea floor, so none of it matters at all.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Jul 29, 2009 - 05:27pm PT
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Tooth, I don't know that it's fair to say that books are inert. Books are signs in an amalgam of people, much like a traffic light is a sign in a jumble of cars. It directs and points.
That's not to say that people don't have a choice with their actions.
But what would be interesting is if we could get metrics comparing the benefit of 'word of mouth' education and direction directly to 'guidebook' based education and direction and see if the delta between upswing in normal word of mouth traffic + magazine traffic + website traffic would mitigate by low impact teaching against an upswing in usage by merely a guidebook.
I know it's reductionistic to think along these lines, but it might at least qualify the real impact of books vs. other media/modes of communicating.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Jul 29, 2009 - 05:29pm PT
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My hunch based on having done a handful of what seem to be known as the ultraclassics is that free climbing in Zion will never become wildly popular like Indian Creek no matter how pretty the topo drawings are.
A glance at the routes page sez that this books (or is it Zion rock?) has taken the opposite tack of the other Supertopo guides wrt difficulty. About 80%ish of the routes seem to be 5.10 or harder.
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tomtom
Social climber
Seattle, Wa
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Jul 29, 2009 - 05:37pm PT
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All of the Desert Towers have fallen down since publication of the Taco.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno
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Jul 29, 2009 - 05:38pm PT
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Now there's an idea for guidebooks! Only publish routes of .10 or harder!
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Jul 29, 2009 - 05:40pm PT
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Yeah, if you don't lead hard 5.10 and don't like the softer stuff a free climbing trip to Zion won't be much fun. I don't know what to do about overuse of aid routes, but I doubt this guidebook will make things worse. The ten or so super popular lines have been well known for at least the last 15 years.
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Burt
Trad climber
Las Vegas, Nv
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Jul 29, 2009 - 06:19pm PT
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I think that the mystery of the most aid lines in the park kept a lot of people off of them. I know the top 5 routes see a major amount of use, and I have been climbing there for over 10 years and have seen first hand how destructive it has been on those routes. But with a "supertopo" of the routes, with the pitch lengths, placements, new ratings, the mystery is not quite gone but seriously lessened. The adventure of getting on a "Middendorf A4" or whatever with just a crappy paper topo that left much to the imagination is going to be lost, I am afraid to see some of the classic nailing pitches, where people who are new to the soft rock and not just "whacking in a pin" but trying to do so in some sort of constructive manner are going to get trashed fast. Zion is unlike the Valley, or Red Rock, really almost anywhere, it will not take the abuse that other areas have gotten. I agree with Ron, (I know way scary!!) But being out at the crags and on the walls, its sad to see the adventure being overtaken by topo loving, beta talking, 3rd stepping gumbies, and making sure that no stone is left unturned before blasting into there supertopo wall, IMHO paying no respect to the ones who laid the ground work so that the mighty walls where tamed. Chris Mac is a great guy, one of the nicest guys I have met, but I have never agreed with the whole supertopo thing, I just believe it is a huge mistake for the fragile (and super adventurous) places like Zion.
Kurt "Burt" Arend
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Jul 29, 2009 - 06:26pm PT
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Kurt (Burt?), the walls in the new guide are either free or clean aid.
About half of the climbs w/ aid indicated have been topoed on Rex's site (bigwall.com) with a lot of info (like pitch lengths, rack beta) and detailed drawings for many years.
The bulk of new info to my less knowledgable eye seems to be for free climbing.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 29, 2009 - 06:40pm PT
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Thanks Burt (I think).
I too made the mistake of thinking that if a route was clean and/or free that it would not be subject to degradation Melissa, but sadly it is not the case.
The routes still do wear, and the ubiquitous ankle biting is prematurely destroying the experience for those to come.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Jul 29, 2009 - 06:41pm PT
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I agree that the clean stuff still wears...my intent was to point out that the only Middendorf A4 in the book would probably have to be listed as 5.13 and most of us won't be able to touch it (or wouldn't want to) despite our evil gym climber/beta-hound intentions.
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Burt
Trad climber
Las Vegas, Nv
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Jul 30, 2009 - 12:52pm PT
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Melissa, I started looking at the book and your right to some degree, (i guess I need to look before writing) but we do need to ask ourselves, do we need to "supertopo" everything out there? Do we need to make it so all of the masses are well informed so that all they have to do is grab a "supertopo" and launch up the cliff? Can't we leave some mystery, some excitement, some adventure? Sometimes the hardest part of climbing in Zion was finding out how to get a hold of topos, find the approach, worry about the descent, it was a full adventure cragging area. I can remember when Chris and Ammon did Swoop Gimp in a push, the only topo floating around was the same one (reproduced on many pages) as the original. Ammon called me and needed a question answered about the route. They climbed the route super fast and in no way was my "beta" any type of help (those guys just kick major ass) but it left the adventure of the unknown still there. I just am afraid of the "dumbing down" of the sport that we all love. I have new routes in the park that I would hope that when they get repeated that they get repeated in a style that it was put up in. Not worrying about pitch lengths, ratings, or what size cam goes in at the crux, but following a beautiful line, enjoying the unknown, and paying respect to the ones that went before you. I am afraid that the masses are missing the point of climbing, climbing is dangerous, climbing will kill you if you fu*k up, adventure is what we all seek or we would all be home typing on a stupid computer, and if you can't accept that then please stay home. I tell my clients that, if a guide ever tells you that climbing is the safest thing out there, leave. Don't climb with them. Climbing is dangerous, but with knowledge we can limit those risks, but they will always be there. No supertopo, cut resistant rope, ultra cam, blah blah blah will change that. Look at the rock fall on temple crag? We can't stop it, so if you can't justify the risks, please go golfing, do something else, I mean that in the best possible way.
Hey Ron, I was with Flyn Brian putting up the route in the back of the Temple over by monkey finger a few years back. What a cool story you had about the route and what we had in store! Brian finally freed it at 12+ (hehehe) and just a wonderful experience. We all give you a lot of sh*t Ron but seriously, thank you for laying out the groundwork for some amazing climbs, I have enjoyed them, still enjoy them, and love watching others blazing there way into the unknown. Take care
Kurt "Burt" Arend
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 30, 2009 - 01:15pm PT
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Thanks Burt, yeah, we talked a bit.
Sounds like at least a few people "get it", but the genie is out of the bottle (and I'm certainly not initially blameless in this, but there is such a thing as a learning curve*) so now it becomes more incumbent upon us as a community to show a willingness to put environmental concerns before our own ambitions.
Will we rise to the occasion?
In truth, I doubt it; not without a whole new layer of regulation.
Its not that we ALL need it; likely just a minority, but since impact is cumulative the proverbial bad apples will spoil the batch.
Do we wait until things are blatantly destroyed and then wring our hands, or can we be more proactive?
I challenge the bolt clipping generation to grow up, to take a longer view, and to realize that Zion's greatest resource can not only NOT be catalogued, but by attempting to do so it dies a slow death.
(* I grant that the issue is complex, and believe that I substantially addressed it a quarter century ago in an article that appeared in the '85 AAJ.
There is certainly some grey here. I wonder how long I would have taken to discover Zion on my own without reading Jeff Lowe's article in Ascent,...)
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Burt
Trad climber
Las Vegas, Nv
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Jul 30, 2009 - 10:59pm PT
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I was just informed that Bryan Bird is the author of the Zion supertopo. Bryan and I have not seen eye to eye on some things but I have mad respect for what he has done in the park. He is one of the most prolific developers of our generation to Zion, and whether I agree with the supertopo thing or not I have to believe that Bryan is doing this for more than just financial gain, but for the good of climbers and the park. I read a lot of the books contents and route descriptions, and again I don't necessarily agree I understand the hard work that went into it. So congrats on your book Bryan I hope it does well. Just remember the heart of climbing involves danger, adventure, and a passion to push past what we thought was possible. Go find an adventure...
Kurt "Burt" Arend
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David Knopp
Trad climber
CA
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Jul 31, 2009 - 07:48pm PT
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hey Burt-please read this question carefully, no malice here at all... your line about 3rd stepping gumbies, etc was a bit frustrating to me. How do all of us 3rd stepping gumbies get our zion experience (if we want it)? I got my Yosemite experience by plugging away, following in the steps of the masters (my wife really) then leading, easier to harder. If i chose to do that in Zion would you welcome me and other gumbies?
I guess what i am saying is we were all gumbies at one time and have to take steps out on our own at some point.
I thank you all for your careful consideration, and Ron, i look forward to a thoughtful response to you, since you really are one of the masters of this soft stone.
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More Air
Big Wall climber
S.L.C.
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Jul 31, 2009 - 10:52pm PT
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Bert said:
Can't we leave some mystery, some excitement, some adventure?
That's one thing I miss, but for the last 15 years I've mostly stayed off the beated path, So for me there's still plenty of mystery and adventure out there...we talkin' sandstone! If you're willing to go climb some of the new routes in the ST guide, you'll find plenty of adventure. Bryan Byrd was very careful in his route selection and his ideas about preserving the place...tons of off the beaten path routes. Spreading climbers out with all of the new additions was IMO a good idea. No nailing routes were included. Kolob canyon was also left out.
Many of the Dave Jones classics on the East Temple and the Watchman & elsewhere rarely get done. Some haven't even had 2nd or 3rd ascents.
Do we need to make it so all of the masses are well informed so that all they have to do is grab a "supertopo" and launch up the cliff?
Point taken, but over the years, I've noticed that the same 5 or 6 trade routes are the only climbs that are crowded. Last April, over a prime weekend, I only saw one party climbing (Moonlight), so with the exception of a few routes, Zion IMO will be fine for a while. For those fearing wear & tear on the rocks, getting the Park Service involved would be a huge mistake.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 31, 2009 - 11:46pm PT
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Huge mistake for you maybe More Hot Air, but if banning stuff now until the technology AND protocol develops that would better conserve the resource for all the climbers to come then who is the selfish one? You've been spooning with flamer too long.
This whole "it will spread out the climbers" argument is so transparently self-serving. A sprayfest masquerading as an environmental movement!
The book will bring more climbers.
More climbers=more impact
What? "Spreading it out" is a good thing?
The reason that the same ol' routes get traffic is that they are the low hanging fruit.
For all climbers' vocalizations about challenge and maximum effort they are mostly just a bunch of lazy opportunists, going for the shortest approaches and easiest routes in order to get their adrenaline fix.
To answer you though, David; acquire the skills on a more resliliant medium before coming.
Zion just isn't for beginners for numerous reasons.
Learning to topstep is important, but more than "knowing", doing it is important.
Spreading out your placements reduces their number and, hence, impact.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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The 1970's Santa Monica surfers used to protect their artificial point break at the old/decrepit Pacific Ocean Park pier by throwing rocks at outsiders (Jay Adams, at 10 or 12 years old, was said to have deadly accuracy) and spray-painting this sort of thing on nearby concrete walls:
DEATH TO INVADERS - INVADERS MUST DIE (skull and crossed bones)
(Sorry, but I couldn't find an image using Google. One appeared in an early Skateboarder magazine, and again in the film Dogtown and Z-Boys by Stacy Peralta.)
I don't suggest anyone do anything like that in Zion. I offer it as a historical reference that indicates the issue of overuse of limited recreational resources has been with us for a long time, and sometimes the "solution" is worse than the problem.
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More Air
Big Wall climber
S.L.C.
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"but if banning stuff now until the technology AND protocol develops that would better conserve the resource for all the climbers to come"
So Ron, are you proposing talking to the Park Service? Speeding up the regulation for us all? I guess we all have our selfish moments Ron, but you have single handedly drawn more climbers to Zion than any other person in history. Now you're saying that we should be "banning stuff".
When you say spreading climbers out is self serving, well now what? Climbers aren't allowed to climb in obscure areas? Gosh, I guess I'm still selfish!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Probably too selfish to see the value in impact related fees and lotteries like river permits and screening for mandatory skill levels.
Nice to be near the front of the line, huh?
At least I've progressed enough to see the error of following the status quo on the most fragile rock.
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More Air
Big Wall climber
S.L.C.
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That's easy to say since you've already climbed everything in Zion that you want. So what are you proposing? fees, permits, lotteries? Sounds fun!
screening for mandatory skill levels.
Maybe you could be in charge of this!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Speak for yourself you selfish old man.
Besides; I thought you were planning on running your own planet soon,...
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More Air
Big Wall climber
S.L.C.
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No...it's the other way around, you're the one proposing regulation for us all. Come on, you've been touting rock preservation for a while now, which I applaud, but you're taking this too far.
Are you really planning on talking to the Park Service?
...They love you.
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roxclamantis
Social climber
Tucson
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Sigh.......
A few points.
The guy much earlier had it correct about Zion moving inexorably to the sea. To be specific, the Zion 'plateau' area is merely the remnant of a package of Mesozoic sedimentary rocks that is rapidly receding northwards owing to headward erosion by the Virgin River and its tributaries -- nothing will stop this. The cliffs we climb in Zion are a very temporary thing. This happens whether we like it or not, whether we have an opinion or not.....'it' doesn't care what we think about 'it'. It doesn't care who you are, were, or ever will be.
That said, it is fine to value National Parks and places like Zion because we think they are aesthetic and somehow more special to us than other places. As climbers we can, of course, number such places on barely one hand, and certainly no more than on two hands. That alone makes them of value to climbers and, of course, to the American public at large.
So we start with the premise that 'man' is making up these conservation rules, whether for the Park in general or more specifically as they pertain to climbing. Again, keep in mind that this is because 'we' humans think it is well and proper to do so. So far so good.
I think that all climbers would agree that a primary goal in climbing should be to reasonably minimize impact. Further, I think we would all agree that there are unspoken social rules amongst climbers as to 'how' things should be climbed. The devil lies in the details of what one considers both 'reasonable' and 'ethical'.
My personal view has always been that what 'matters' (to me anyway because the rock doesn't care) is how much the rock is inadvertently damaged during a first ascent, and how much of the damage is 'necessary' to complete a new line. The less the better in my book. For this reason, more natural lines with fewer blank spots requiring bolting are 'better' at conserving the rock than routes with many bolted links. For example, the line that became Desert Shield was seen by any and every observant climber long, long before it got climbed. It didn't get climbed because, speaking for myself anyway, I could not justify the amount of bolting to get to the splitter headwall crack. Nor could anyone else in an earlier era. A younger generation could and did and, yes, the route has a lot of bolts. Does that make it a 'bad' route? No, but it does represent an ethical 'compromise' that is inarguably arguable. That is: you can't pretend to play the 'game' of conservation and yet suffer the amnesia of not remembering the statement placing a bolt in rock makes. It says: 'this routes is not reasonably climbable in its natural state but merits altering to allow me to climb it'.
All of this is prelude to weighing in on the Zion guidebook debate.
No one, not Jeff Lowe or Bill Forrest or myself or etc, etc, has been more singularly identified with Zion climbing than ol' PR himself. This has come about largely through self-promotion (he's not 'PR' for nothing). I recall being in St. George in 1979 or so and seeing a detailed poster of PR's on his FA of what was then known as Archangel. (Oh, and for historical reference, and despite suburban legends to the contrary, I first came to Zion as 5-6 year old driving cross-country with my mom, and many times thereafter. First time as a 'climber' was in 1976 with my friend John Larson and then in 1978 while working out of St. George as a geologist.) Talking to the proprietor of the shop (a bike shop) I was first told of this amazing guy who did amazing things.....alone. Since then, and right up till today, nothing much has changed. 'More Air' has hit the nail solidly on the head.
There is nothing wrong with a little self-promotion and, further, any guidebook (including this one) is as well an act of self-promotion and self-importance. Fine. But what is not OK is to set oneself up as the Moses of sandstone conservation when one has instead been worshipping at the altar of the gilded, or is that plated?, calf.
In prior postings I've lauded PR's line picking ability, persistence, rebellious nature, etc, etc, and I still do. What is entirely unacceptable, however, is to promote oneself as a savior of Zion rock when PR's routes are/were both the most impacted during their FA's and subsequently impacted by popularity, to no small degree as the result of PR's promotion. Given his newfound concernover the new guide, I see only two internally logical postions for PR to take: 1)"yes, I chose to make these routes both more user-friendly and direct by a little creative rock work, and I'm OK with people climbing them as they will, and I accept personal responsibility for opening them up to the general public, and you can go @#$% yourself if you don't like it; or, 2) I did what I did, when I did it, with good intentions that I now realize have yielded bad results and I wish I would have chosen otherwise. I don't see any middle ground here, which is the terrain I see PR apparently (are you?) trying to take. Seems to me like a Hamburger Hill epic in the making.
After PR and I stopped climbing together much (post-Spaceshot), he would occasionally assail me for putting up routes that 'no one else can do' and that this therefore made me 'elitist'. Not surprisingly, these routes have been self-limiting in terms of their traffic (has anyone even heard of Empty Pages, Wages of Sin, Lost in Transit??) owing to their difficulty. What was 'Archangel', and subsequently morphed into 'Prodigal Son' through many surgical procedures, would have been a classic, scary, committing and very seldom climbed A4+ type of affair. It intentionally was NOT established that way and was drilled and 'constructively' scarred down to A2. To now lament the traffic on it is nothing more than crocodile tears.
As for the guidebook, I wrote an open commentary to Bryan Bird, a friend of mine, that I thought it inappropriate to include 'Prodigal Son' in the guide since it was by no stretch of the imagination a 'clean' climb. Applying the same logic as used on Prodigal Son, drilling down old and obscure hard Zion aid climbs will somehow turn them into classics.
This demeans us all.
So, PR, please choose your position wisely. If you don't like the traffic, please show at least a tad of contrition. If you don't want people to explore more then why would you sign off on putting Sunshine Buttress into a new 50 Classic Climbs book (which I hear it isn't anyway)?
I sense a mellowing and evolution in PR's thinking that may be a good sign and a bresh of fresh air (oh and you still owe me $65, plus interest). Your talk of promoting Park Service intervention doesn't seem to mesh with that fresh direction, and would instead earn you eternal emnity. Moses would have sent down a lightening bolt or two...........
Long sleeping.....the fickle finger of Zion fate is stirred by the awakening that publication hath wrought..............
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crackfiend
climber
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The beauty of climbing in Zion is that the place demands respect. Virtually no moderate climbing exists and consequently the traffic has been concentrated on the 4 trade routes here. Climb off the beaten path here and you are guaranteed challenge and adventure. You may fear for you life, you may end up dry heaving on a ledge after 150 feet of offwidthing, you may wish you never started climbing in the first place, and a small percentage of people will thrive in these circumstances. I have had the great opportunity of living in zion for the last three years and being plugged in to the local climbing community. The main focus of new climbing development here seems to be focused on free climbs. The nature and difficulty of the free climbing here does not lend itself to the climbing mainstream. The increases climbing activity I see this book producing will hardly bee a blip on the radar compared to the hordes gangbanging the four trade routes. People just want to say they "climbed" in zion and clip their way up some contrived sport wall. Its unfortunate but the climbers who truly value the climbing experience Zion has to offer are few and far between. Based on my experience here is seem that climbers have good rapport with the park service and are a fairly small drain on their resources. The true risk to the zion backcountry and an extreme drain on park resources is the canyoneering activity going on. The glaring inexperience and rate of accidents and rescues for this user group is off the charts....
so as a local climber I say welcome to zion. but come with equally large amounts of respect and sense of adventure. be safe and HAVE FUN peace....
p.s. Ron I have not had the chance to be formally introduced just the victim of your "ledge sandbagging". It should happen some time.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Everyone blames new guidebooks for bringing more climbers to their areas. These same climbers search out guidebooks when road tripping to OTHER areas. What's the best case for climbers- nobody in your backyard but free access for you to anyplace you choose to go? Guess what folks- with the internet there are no secrets anymore! Surfers have long been known as egregious a-holes when protecting their surf, do we want climbers to be the same way? I think not.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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I have the Zion Solution: just as hybrid Aliens are used for pin scars in Yosemite, BD should sell hybrid Camalots for use in sandstone fist scars.
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NFB
Mountain climber
Wilson, Wyoming
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All so funny,
Ron, once again, thanks for your efforts and money spent on the trade routes. They are fun and they are what they are.
Dave, it was fun working that new sport climb with you a few years ago, we should go back and finish that thing.
Ron and Dave, when will you guys get together and bury the hatchet? we can all get together and drink beers, tell lies, and have a good time.
With regard to the new book: The reality is that Zion is a very isolated area, far from any population center. I believe this is the reason it remains uncrowded. The free climbing is friendlier in Moab and Red Rocks anyway. The book is largely a free-climbing book. The free climbs will benefit from increased traffic. How many thousand ascents have the trades seen? They seem to be holding up fine. I climbed Moonlight a few weeks ago at night time to prep for an EC route and I did not see any huge scars forming from cams...
To any one who may be new to Zion, please behave yourselves with regard to the park service. We (the current generation of active climbers) have made a concerted effort to get along with the park service (thank you access fund clean up days) and I believe we have good rapport with them. Many Parkies there are also climbers... Let's not get to the "cops and robbers" crap that I feel in Yosemite. Zion does not have a "John Muir Hotel" yet. hahahaha
I hope I get to meet and hang with new climbers. I like hanging with climbers, mostly.
Nate Brown
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roxclamantis
Social climber
Tucson
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Hey Nate,
Good to hear you're alive. Let's finish that line this fall....looks pretty stellar all the way and the start is already fun. Can you make it?
As to 'burying the hatchet', that has been an option for decades, but PR has been an incessant spewer of 'things that ain't quite so...'. If anything, I've been all too kind about it.
In fact, the Gentle Readers of these posts still haven't heard the full story of the (sob!!) permanent break up....... Forgiving what transpired requires an apology (even half-hearted) and symbolic remuneration.
But this post has nothing to do with that. It has to do with pointing out the hipocrisy of PR's position on the new guide. If you had ever climbed, or knew the history of, Archangel and how it subsequently morphed into Prodigal Son you would understand what I'm getting at. To paraphrase Daniel Patrick Moynahan, PR is entitled to his own opinions, but not his own facts.
But that doesn't mean you can't drink a beer with the guy. Heck, if he coughs up what he owes and stops spewing falsehoods I'll even buy the first two pitchers at the Buckhorn (or is it Bucksnort?).....
On the other hand, the untold story is probably well worth dragging this out.........
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Burt
Trad climber
Las Vegas, Nv
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I have to replay to Dave Knopp first, my comment is meant as it sounds, the lack of experience that I have witnessed has had some major impacts on the surrounding routes. Not being able to gain access to your higher steps increases the amount of placements (and makes for more of a chance to whip) and if a feature was reached on the FA by top stepping and the following couldn't, bolts are added, hooks are drilled blah blah blah. I just feel that Zion is soft rock, it doesn't take to the abuse as well as others, and for the one before who said that the cracks aren't opening due to cams? Take a closer look my friend, go look at the opening pitches of the classics, Space Shot, Touchstone, Prodigal, and the Corner pitches to the top of Moonlight, but these are minimal compared to the starts of the lesser known nailing routes. G-money, Days of no Future, Ball and Chain, just the first 2 or 3 pitches. People get on these routes way over there head, nail the sh*t out of them don't clean constructively and they are thrashed. Those are just a few examples, so thats what I am talking about. I am not trying to sound like a d*ck, it just bums me out to see this done but I am afraid there is nothing we can do about this. I love the park, some of my most frighting experiences where there, but some of the most fun and rewarding times of my life where there also. I guess we all want a perfect answer when there is not one. As crackfiend said, "welcome to Zion" You will get schooled even on the trade routes, and boy when you get off the topo, find just find a line and go climb it, when a little ole' 100 foot 5.9 crack has you wishing your parents never meet, and this is going to be a painful death, and some how the sand running down the cliff, the moss breaking under your feet, the twigs you have tied off as pro, it all comes together and you make it, the sh*t brown smile from all the sand in your mouth makes it all worth it... but wait there is still the decent... HAHAHA! So welcome to Zion, check your ego at the gate and hold on, it's one hell of a ride.
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Gene
climber
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Nothing to add except I thought it was Prodigal Sun, nothwithstanding the ST book.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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The Park service, the economy, and lazy gym climbers will save Zion;......don't point no finger at the guidebook;......I barely have any money to go climbing;......government regulates how long you can stay, and camping is expensive.....gas prices, food prices, government regulations, taxes;.....and it's not gonna get better......Quit whinning and go climbing while you still can......it's going to get tighter and tighter and more difficult to go climbing.....I think Zion is safe;...I just went climbing for 4 days and we didn't see anyone else climbing the whole trip.......there will be no mad rush to Zion;....once unemployment gets to 20%......climbing will be on the back burner.......new pasttimes will be popular;.....2 jobs, gas syphoning, pot growing, garage sales,....survival and existence will be the challenge of upcoming generations;.........not so much 5.14 and A5 ..........(Cheerful thoughts, eh?)...Go climb a rock.......(Blame the Kennedys...go ahead......)...
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NFB
Mountain climber
Wilson, Wyoming
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Todd,
I've got a rifle and a healthy garden. Good point, future generations will likely be more interested in elk hunting and surviving than quibble about scarred cracks.
Burt is right about pinned out nailing routes, but was not Moonlight once a "nailing route"? What about Lunar X? Are we crowing about nothing? Maybe Days of No Future will be a classic "clean aid climb" soon??? Not sure. Anyway, I was really referring to the original post... Good or bad thing? The guide book is filled with CLEAN and FREE routes. I stand by my original opinion, Camming and fists will not "ruin" the free routes. As for trade routes, once again, how many thousands of people have yarded on Ron's pitons? They seem fine, and Moonlight is a sick free climb (once a nailing route), Ball and Chain got freed (proud)...
Dave, I will be in Zion this fall, email me lets see if we can get some work done on that project.
Nate
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yo
climber
a tied-off Tomahawk™
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Get back to work, Brown, yer vacation is over!!! Go build a corral or something.
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More Air
Big Wall climber
S.L.C.
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Boy this thread really must be mellowing out if yo's decided to jump in!
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| Messages 1 - 38 of total 38 in this topic |
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