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crackfiend
climber
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 26, 2009 - 04:31pm PT
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Hooray it is finally out. I downloaded my copy last night and my print copy will be here in aug. Brian did an amazing job and his effort is much appreciated. Support our local boys and buy a copy. My latest route "tatoween" just made the cut. check it out, one of the better long free routes in the park...
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Jul 26, 2009 - 04:32pm PT
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So.... where can we see it, buy it, download it, preview it... and who is Brian?
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crackfiend
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 26, 2009 - 04:39pm PT
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Click on the link for guidebooks on the supertopo page. it gives the normal st preview, free topo, ect... Brian Bird is a zion local who put the guide together, many years of hard work and research has gone into the guide. Many of the photos are by zion local Eric Draper. The finished product is very nice and well done. Enjoy!!!!!!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 26, 2009 - 04:48pm PT
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Man always kills the thing he loves,...
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Chinchen
climber
Flagstaff?
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Jul 26, 2009 - 05:31pm PT
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Me want.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 26, 2009 - 07:12pm PT
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Typical !!!
At the start of the nineteenth century the American west was a land of adventure and romance. Penetrated by explorers and mountain men a land that had seen slow change under its original natives began to alter more rapidly. As the century progressed the two most important agents of change were the railroads and lines of electrical communication (there were actually phones, not just telegraphs, in the west in 1884).
Guidebooks act in much the same way. They both facilitate access and, by informing, remove a sense of adventure.
With virtually all other areas so documented it would have been nice to see Zion remain somewhat mysterious and daunting, especially in light of the fragility of the resources.
That the author of this work has made the argument that this guide will address the fragility issue reducing pressure on the trade routes by dispersing the traffic to other lines is beyond specious. It is lame, and on TWO counts.
1) Many of the trade routes seem to be included!
(and this was against express requests)
2) Pressure is pressure. Eroding a "different route" is still eroding a route and claiming that these are free or clean routes is by now totally disingenuous. We already know for certain that these types of climbs are subject to erosion as well. Just look at Incredible Handcrack at IC.
This guide will serve as a platform from which selfish climbers can beat their chests, and the result will be visibly obvious braided trails and drag trails up the rocks, and terribly "blown out" first pitches as overly hopeful Zion neophytes learn that routes here are a bit more serious.
In the end, after enough accidents and complaints, there will be restrictions and closures that penalize future generations of climbers.
I guess it is too late. The writing is already on the wall.
Well,.. it was nice while it lasted.
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Jul 26, 2009 - 07:26pm PT
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Ron, don't you realize it is best to dip your bread into the gravy while it is still hot?
Future climbers??? Who says there will be any if they can't find the routes?
The "live for now" adventure climber now has a way out of the gym and onto the crags, through this guide and others just like it.
I think accurate guides and web info will also cut down on "2nd first ascents" and manual rock enhancement due to inadequate information.
We/they can't all be silent rock astronauts spawned in long ago world. Besides, a little bleating here and there via a guidebook tick list is a good thing.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 26, 2009 - 07:34pm PT
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Got news for ya Russ; even with accurate info, when they get scared (easy to do) they discover all kinds of new enhancement techniques (also easy to do).
The guide will only import wannabes.
And as for bleating?
Well Russ I'm sure you know where THAT comes from. LOL
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Jul 26, 2009 - 08:17pm PT
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You hear about the same 20-30 or so routes in the valley all the time. A perussal through the guidebook reveals that there are, in fact, a few more than that worth doing. Maybe the guidebook will spread folks about a bit?
Are the drag trails that bad? (there weren't any last time I was there- a long time ago) Streaked Wall has all those streaks and no one complains about it.
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J. Werlin
climber
Cedaredge
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Jul 27, 2009 - 09:47am PT
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Better grab that grenade launcher Ron...
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MisterE
Trad climber
One Step Beyond!
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Jul 27, 2009 - 10:15am PT
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John Mac
Trad climber
Littleton, CO
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Jul 27, 2009 - 11:05am PT
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I had a bit of time this weekend to go over the new guide and I'm pretty impressed with what Bryan and Chris have produced. The photography is eye popping! However, it's definitely not the usual supertopo guide book that many of us have become accustomed too, there are many short descriptions of routes and topos are limited as well.
I think the author has kept the adventure factor pretty high and hasn't given a lot way with this book. I suspect that most climbers will still go to Zion and climb the "trade" routes, such as moonlight, Lunar X, Prodigal Sun, Spaceshot, etc, and not venture too far off the beaten path. All this information is already out there on mountain project, rc.com so it’s not really any new information.
I don't think you are going to see an explosion of people climbing in Zion due to the new book because of the ratings. They are pretty damn hard.
A quick look at the break down of routes:
5.5 - 1
5.6 - 1
5.7 - 14
5.8 - 16
5.9 - 26
5.9+ - 7
5.10- 15
5.10 - 70
5.10+ - 32
5.11- - 40
5.11+ - 40
5.12- - 6
5.12 - 15
5.12+ - 9
5.13- - 2
5.13 - 4
5.13+ 1
Aid routes:
There are 25 aid routes in the book, starting with Moonlight at 5.9 C1 to Swoop Gimp at 5.9 C3. For example on Angels Landing there are only two aid routes, PS and the Lowe route. There are a couple of routes that require a hammer and the author has suggested that the next people up those routes perhaps donate a few pins to turn them into classic clean routes. Gatekeeper crack is one example of this.
I've spotted a few discrepancies on some of the topos, such as the size of the cams recommended for the 4th pitch of Moonlight being too large, (its yellow aliens, yellow aliens all the way) Also the bolt on first pitch of Moonlight (direct start), I've never found that after going up and down it half a dozen times.
On Prodigal Sun there is a 5.7 mandatory move on the 4th pitch. Never found that. Also the 4th pitch is listed as the crux, whereas I think the crux is the final aid pitch which is getting pretty blown out in a few places and eventually will need another fixed piece, prior to the swing over the bolt.
Nice to see the 2nd pitch of Spaceshot listed as 5.7, always felt that was a really hard 5.6!
I really liked the history sections and in particular I think Mike Andersen did a great job of capturing the more recent history. John Middendorf filled in a lot of gaps as well in the earlier years. I would have liked to have seen more emphasis on how to climb clean in Zion. Not using cam hooks is mentioned several times and climbing clean is emphasized throughout the book. The author encourages people to free as much as possible rather than using aid, as even the weighting of passive pro does damage the rock.
However, I would have liked to see an something more in depth on clean climbing, the history, evolution, practices, etc. For example, how to clean out stuck wires, etc.
I'll be writing a full review of the book in the next week or so and posting it up on mountain project. I'll link it to this discussion when I'm done.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 27, 2009 - 11:19am PT
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Thanks for spelling Prodigal Sun correctly John, tend to agree with you about it.
I've been getting nasty emails due to my post. Seems like I'm free to have an opinion provided I play their game.
Sorry.
Not interested.
We are not taking adequate measures to protect the resource and mitigate impact with an eye towards long term preservation.
Few if any are willing to make any compromises, and most are adept at rationalizing their behavior.
Unlike the resources that many other recreational activities utilize, rocks don't heal themselves.
All impact is cumulative.
Even if 99% have no impact at all (we should be so lucky) the 1% over time will have a major impact.
A guidebook will only accelerate the cumulative impact.
We can pretend we are cute raccoons but, ironically here in Toquerville, after they were introduced a few decades ago raccoons are hated and hunted for all the damage they do.
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Impaler
Trad climber
Munich
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Jul 27, 2009 - 11:48am PT
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I'm super psyched about this guidebook coming out! I'm ordering my copy. I haven't been to Zion yet and I am super excited about all the long free routes listed in the guide. Thanks Chris and Bryan!
Ron, with all due respect, I disagree with you. Sure, we can preserve the area by not climbing there. I'm sure you want just that - for everyone to leave the place, so you and your buddies can have it all to yourselves. I think a better question is how can we preserve it and still let people have fun on the rock there? I was going to end up there one way or another and having an awesome guidebook will just make it easier for me to accomplish that goal. I also think that free climbing is ultimately the way to go and a much better way to preserve the rock than absence of adequate info on the area.
Perhaps you could use you experience and teach us about what we could do to help preserve the area. This forum is a good place for it and I'd be happy to read your thoughts about it.
Vlad
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FeelioBabar
climber
Sneaking up behind you...
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Jul 27, 2009 - 11:50am PT
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Ron why do you get so chuffed about trade routes YOU CREATED, getting loved to death? I fully admire your clean ethic in a place a fragile as Zion...but I guess you should have manufactured em harder to keep the "beaters" off of them...no?
Seems to me that if your "easy" trade routes were not there.. neither would 80% of the climbing parties in Zion.
EDIT:The guide looks great...big props to Brian and Cmac.
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Prod
Trad climber
A place w/o Avitars apparently
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Jul 27, 2009 - 12:15pm PT
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Hey Ron,
If I send you a nasty email, it'd have porn in it. Other than that, I understand your angst but feel it could be better directed. The rock is open to the public, and the book is printed, can't change that (well it'd be a tough row to hoe for sure). Maybe write a short ebook about how to climb and protect fragile rock with the least impact?
Prod.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 27, 2009 - 01:17pm PT
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OK you guys are misunderstanding what I'm saying, or just reading into it.
I'm not an elitist trying to save the place just for myself.
What I'm trying to stress is that the current lack of any kind of restrictions is slowly but inexorably leading to a situation in Zion where the resources are degraded to an unacceptable level DUE TO LACK OF FORESIGHT.
There ARE things that we can do to mitigate this damage, but it means regulation and restraint. Anarchy, no matter how well intended, just doesn't work.
Try telling a bunch of noobs that they should practice some wall climbing before launching up Prodigal or Touchstone and they say, "But we only have two days."
Until long term impacts are adressed (and none of you are going to like what THAT will entail) publishing a guide will only accelerate the all too permanent damage.
BITD I felt the same as you, but have since encountered the legacy of it and wish to do right by those to come.
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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Jul 27, 2009 - 01:27pm PT
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Now I can finally retire my Olevsky guide! Thanks Ron for publishing the info on Zion in the climbing rags BITD.
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luquitos
Trad climber
santa cruz, ca
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Jul 27, 2009 - 04:33pm PT
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i think new guidebooks can be a mixed blessing. on the one hand, there really wasnt a decent guidebook for zion, so it's nice to know about some more routes and have a little more info. but it's also hard not to feel that a new book will result in crowding and in a place like zion where the rock is so fragile will result in degradation of the area. not to mention the sense of a loss of adventure and unknown. i was in zion in april of this year and was pleasantly surprised at the few numbers of climbers there. it's not often that one gets to climb in uncrowded areas these days. hopefully the extra climbers that are attracted to zion through the new book will be respectful of the place.
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