Discussion Topic |
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| Messages 1 - 80 of total 80 in this topic |
Pennsylenvy
Big Wall climber
Le' Bia
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Nov 14, 2008 - 06:45pm PT
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LEB just like real life here on supertopo for you eh?
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Jim E
climber
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Nov 14, 2008 - 06:47pm PT
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I'll get back to ya on that. "wink"
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 14, 2008 - 06:52pm PT
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I think the Taco is fairly tolerant providing you understand how it is to be sketched out above mank.
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Nov 14, 2008 - 06:54pm PT
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Chill Sis, you don't have to panic like that, Real bad things will turn up. You don't need to grasp at desperate nonsense.
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Porkchop_express
Trad climber
Gunks, NY
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Nov 14, 2008 - 07:13pm PT
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interesting article. i think the real moral of the story is that human nature is what it is despite the idealism it likes to wear as a mask. the bottom line is still "my team vs yours".
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bobinc
Trad climber
Portland, Or
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Nov 14, 2008 - 07:16pm PT
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Funny how when Republican attack dogs are hyper-critical/condescending of/toward Democrats, they are called "savvy" and when the shoe is on the other foot, the complaint is how mean and unfair the Democrats are.
Whine all ya want, Lois.
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Porkchop_express
Trad climber
Gunks, NY
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Nov 14, 2008 - 07:16pm PT
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im pretty sure you can take a lot of morals out of that story. the one stood out to me in particular though.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 14, 2008 - 07:19pm PT
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I kept pretty much out of this LEB, but you did taunt everyone about the Repub's presidential ticket winning, didn't you? And how all of them will be in a bad way after the election, etc, etc...
Seems that if you feel a bit "worked" over by the STForum Dem's, it's really about taking what you could dish out yourself. Maybe you could start posting more about climbing?
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Nov 14, 2008 - 07:23pm PT
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OH GOD WE POOR VICTIMIZED MCCAIN SUPPORTERS. WOE ARE WE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
LEB for as many personal attacks and sarcastic remarks that you make and hateful rumors that you perpetuate you sure cry a lot about being persecuted. You seem to be developing what is known as a "Jody complex."
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 14, 2008 - 07:29pm PT
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There are a number of porceline animals here judging from the time they spend worshipping it.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Nov 14, 2008 - 07:39pm PT
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The "true nature" is all ready manifest.
Just wait till unemployment hits double digits and
tax rates become confiscatory.
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elcap-pics
climber
Crestline CA
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Nov 14, 2008 - 07:40pm PT
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Discussion of religion and politics do not make for good friendships... I have posted nothing about any of this election stuff because I am smart enough to realize that you are not going to change my mind about such things and I am not going to change yours... so why not let the ballot box speak for all of us?! I do recall the most awful things said about McCain by his fellow repubs when he was trying to beat W for the nomination in the past and also about Kerry's war record... seems like there is plenty of room for deception and lies from all sides of the political spectrum... LEB, all I can say is that you reap what you sow Brother, you reap what you sow...
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Nov 14, 2008 - 07:43pm PT
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"Hey, DJ, that's Whoa Are We. "
No actually it isn't. Though people seem inclined to say "whoah" for some reason that makes no sense at all. You aren't trying to stop a horse you are saying "oh poor me, I'm full of woe." You can't really be full of woah.
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bobinc
Trad climber
Portland, Or
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Nov 14, 2008 - 07:44pm PT
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Oh -- you mean like McCain's "true nature"?
hahahahahahaha
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Nov 14, 2008 - 07:50pm PT
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You mean the guy who got banned for his invective?
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divad
Trad climber
wmass
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Nov 14, 2008 - 08:18pm PT
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Lois,
One thing in your link that stood out and with which I agree is that people get their politics from their parents. My father died when I was 13 and my mother never expressed any political views until I already had my own.
I think that you feel that we hate you for your views. While I certainly can't speak for everyone on my side of the aisle, I firmly beleive that most of us reply to you in jest or are just exasperated with how you hold to your convictions. So keep on doing what you're doing. It's one of the reasons I keep coming back here.
Jeez, I gotta get a life.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Nov 14, 2008 - 08:46pm PT
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LEB I realize that you haven't yet and probably will never get this, but the intolerance is mainly to disinterest in facts and information, not "divergent viewpoints."
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Jim E
climber
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Nov 14, 2008 - 08:55pm PT
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"I think that you feel that we hate you for your views."
Nah. I hate her for her lack of vision.
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kunlun_shan
Mountain climber
SF, CA
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Nov 14, 2008 - 09:36pm PT
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".....so anxious to state (over and over) your viewpoints and interjecting yourself into each and every conversation....."
Hmmm......
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Nov 14, 2008 - 09:38pm PT
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Hormel can not keep up with Spam production.
Ammunition prices are spikeing.
I think I'll plow under the back yard, plant corn and buy some chickens and a milk goat.
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Jim E
climber
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Nov 14, 2008 - 10:13pm PT
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"That remark of yours is very telling and it "tells" much more about you than me."
This remark tells me that you are tragically predictable.
Untwist your panties, sweetheart. My remark was merely a satirical interjection on the sentence I quoted.
Thanks for the lesson on 'hate'. I was never quite clear on that.
edit:
"I simply don't see this kind of emotion and rhetoric coming from the GOP"
I'm speechless.
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Jeremy Handren
climber
NV
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Nov 14, 2008 - 10:15pm PT
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HDDJ said,
"LEB I realize that you haven't yet and probably will never get this, but the intolerance is mainly to disinterest in facts and information, not "divergent viewpoints.""
Its funny, and so typical that LEB chooses to ignore this basic truth.
Its not LEB viewpoints that I find offensive, its her intellectually dishonest arguments. In fact,when it comes to opposing viewpoints the exact opposite is the case, I really enjoy arguing with a smart conservative.....republagumbies like LEB...not so much.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Nov 14, 2008 - 10:22pm PT
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The "left" has been a most intolerant bunch
Most inclined to mob mentality,
from Robespierre to Mao they have been the functionaries of mass murder.
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Jim E
climber
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Nov 14, 2008 - 10:25pm PT
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Hey Jerry,
Did you happen bump into Shimberg and crew this past week? He was just in your town with Tuthill and Hammond.
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Fletcher
Trad climber
Max V02
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Nov 14, 2008 - 10:31pm PT
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I think the Taco is fairly tolerant providing you understand how it is to be sketched out above mank.
This is one of the best lines I have ever read on the Taco. So true!
Fletch
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
Boise
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Nov 14, 2008 - 10:34pm PT
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Mike has a real point here......Isn't tolerance of weirdness kinda what we're ALL about?
We're weird. No sweat.
You're weird, too? Sweet!
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MisterE
Trad climber
My Inner Nut
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Nov 14, 2008 - 10:35pm PT
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Two words, People:
8th graders
capiche?
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dirtbag
climber
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Nov 14, 2008 - 10:37pm PT
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"The "left" has been a most intolerant bunch
Most inclined to mob mentality,
from Robespierre to Mao they have been the functionaries of mass murder. "
I'm going to enjoy watching these folks whine the next 4 years. :-)
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Jennie
Trad climber
Idaho Falls
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Nov 14, 2008 - 10:40pm PT
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Becoming a raging maniac hurling all manner of vile remarks is something quite different. I suspect that people's true colors came out. It is my belief based on experience on this forum that liberals are only "tolerant" of those people who line up with their own views.
A few Republicans, here, have done their share of name calling and hurling vile remarks, Lois. The trend toward incivility seems pretty level across the political spectrum. That's an opinion, does anyone have an incivility monitor?
Rush Limbaugh isn't the most courteous individual in the public eye. And yes, sometimes he's outright rude and disrespectful. The man's been a role model for conservative pundits since the advent of bottled gas. Rush's "Pearls of Wisdom", delivered with sarcasm and aplomb invite and incite "Pearls of Counter-Wisdom" returned to sender with accusatory rage.
You HAVE been a target for uncalled for, vile remarks and irrational rage. But that behavior is not just a liberal sickness. When a civilization descends into raging contention, ALL factions are huffing hate and puffing pride. Respectful dialogue turns snide and insulting. Objective communication decays to name calling and frivolous accusation.
I'll give you credit for clinging to the narrow edge of civility, Lois. (I haven't) But there are hurricanes of hate out there and the ill wind you're getting here is blowing from well outside the ST horizon. There's little accountability here, so if you're honest about your politics and religion, and they're not in fashion with the gang, you'll be targeted by more name calling rants and testosterone tantrums. (That's just where we are as a civilization.)
........but reading rock climber virulence on your computer screen is probably less hazardous than smelling Ann Coulter or Roseanne Barr's caustic breath
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Jeremy Handren
climber
NV
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Nov 14, 2008 - 10:40pm PT
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Hi Jim
I never see anyone in Red Rocks. These days I'm usually climbing in places where no one else goes.
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Jim E
climber
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Nov 14, 2008 - 10:54pm PT
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Jim E
Apparently, it is a lesson you need to read. You post (literally) that you "hate" me because of xyz and then you do so on a very public website. God forbid anything awful should happen to me or a loved one and some DA or detective then asks - "can you think of anyone who hates you or has something against you?"
Well, Jack, you just posted for the whole world to read that you "hate" me and so now suddenly you are a person of interest. You all love to tell me how "stupid" I am. Perhaps I am not the one who is not too bright here. One simply does not (wisely) publish something like that on the internet. I just love the way you all tell me how "stupid" I am and then proceed to do some (supremely stupid) things which I in a million years would never dream of doing
All this coming from the only person on this forum to ever call me a bastard, SOB, and predator.
Please. Get over yourself.
edit: God forbid anything awful should happen to me or a loved one and some DA or detective then asks - "can you think of anyone who hates you or has something against you?"
This line is hilarious.
"Yes officer, there's this guy on the internet... he said he hated me once for my lack of vision". {officer roles his eyes}
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adam d
climber
CA
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Nov 14, 2008 - 11:24pm PT
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Fletcher...
Ron was definitely on the right track with "I think the Taco is fairly tolerant providing you understand how it is to be sketched out above mank" but he was referring back to this thread I think:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=712865&msg=713106#msg713106
and maybe other threads too where Lois was reminded that climbers share some common experiences...
Left/Right Liberal/Conservative labels don't do much for me. Neither do partisanship or nationalism. Hard to have a real discussion with someone when they speak in sweeping generalizations.
Buy a gun and let gays marry and don't spend more than you earn. And throw some money at your schools.
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Jim E
climber
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Nov 14, 2008 - 11:33pm PT
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So Jerry,
I take it you're still all about the "crag x".
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MisterE
Trad climber
My Inner Nut
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Nov 15, 2008 - 12:06am PT
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Nov 15, 2008 - 12:16am PT
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You went to the great huge MASSIVE effort of posting a pic, MisterE so she must be doing something right, amirite?
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Risk
Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
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Nov 15, 2008 - 12:24am PT
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I don't find it funny that this experiment turned out that way. Apparently this sort of behavior, usually attributed to non-liberals, afflicts portions of our whole population. What I am referring to is the post-election up tick in racial hate crimes, cross burning, and KKK related crimes and activity by some of the 46 million you associate with. Everyone expected these crimes to happen if Obama won, so this isolated incident becomes newsworthy because it mimics behavior not typical of Obama supporters.
"I guess "tolerance" only applies if one supports the other person's political position. I particularly found the death threats interesting." Following your advice, are we suppose to be more tolerant of cross-burning, racial hate crimes, and the KKK? In particular, what was it about the death threats that you found so interesting? Do you find all of the death threats Obama is getting particularly interesting too?
Finally, are you another Republican abandoning your party's name and substituting it with GOP now? Dino Rossi found it almost worked here in Washington. By the way, I almost wanted him to win.
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MisterE
Trad climber
My Inner Nut
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Nov 15, 2008 - 01:02am PT
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LOOK OUT! HERE IT COMES!!!
Come to blast you out of your happy place!!!
OH NOES!!!
IT'S THE DREADED
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Jingy
Social climber
Flatland, Ca
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Nov 15, 2008 - 01:26am PT
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LEB - One single comment in your article kinda lets me know where this columnists head is at. Here it is:
"In one class, I had one teacher say she will not judge me for my choice, but that she was surprised that I supported McCain," Catherine said.
If Catherine was shocked by such passive-aggressive threats from instructors, just wait until she goes to college." (notice the columnist states that this is passive aggressive, and a threat?)
The teacher stated that she was "surprised" at the child's choice of support in a way that was very non-confrontational in my opinion. The columnist then states that the child should wait for college.
For me, this column only points out this columnists Right Lean for mccain. What I mean by that is I've heard this very same type of talk from the right-of-the-right radio talk show rush limbaugh. I've heard this type of stuff from many right-slanting talking heads on all of the so-called Liberal Media. They (righty-righty) seem to think that simply to going to an mind opening college automatically places one into the liberal mindset and after that one cannot be reached.
I'm sorry LEB, but this time I cannot side with your pointing out the intolerance of Catherine's 8th grade class. I don't think that it was bravery when Catherine wore the "unique" shirt. Not only that, but this comes after the landslide vote. Mindless propaganda is what this is (my opinion) and if you can't see it for what it is.. Then I guess it's your time on this earth that is being wasted.
Mainly it only shows what this columnist is all about, and more about what it is to be an 8th grader in that school that Catherine attends. Bravery is not what this act was about. It wasn't about showing that tolerant people on the whole are really rather intolerant, because we all know that there are all types out there, some people are just more tolerant that others. It doesn't show/tell anything about the person wearing the shirt or her statements either. (How do we know she wasn't agitating people than writing down their responses to the agitation?)
You could have made a better point if you had pointed at this article and said "here is a child who wore a t-shirt supporting mccain that she made herself in a school where a majority of the student population supported Obama."(as did the entire country?) If you had, maybe you wouldn't be fielding all this unfortunate negativity.
Mister-E Edit: That should read "LeBong"
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 15, 2008 - 02:05am PT
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Here's the thing. Coming into this election, all was not neutral. Bush had got us into two wars that aren't going well, and the economy is wrecked. He assumed extreme powers and dragged our nation down into torture, no h corpus, and obstructed justice.
So some folk have had it and advocating the Election of another GOP administration was, if anything, far more extreme than advocating returning Richard Nixon to office after he resigned. (using Nixon to avoid Nazi or Stalin analogies that would offend people)
I doubt such negativity would have been present following the Bush 1 or Reagan administrations even from folks who didn't agree with their policies.
PEace
Karl
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Nov 15, 2008 - 02:29am PT
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"The left has lost all manner of perspective and condones this sort of behavior - even cheers it on."
Who is this left? I have never condoned this behavior. Jaybro hasn't. Many others here have not condoned this behavior. Lois, this is more black and white thinking. You have painted yourself as some sort of saint while painting others as terrible. We have seen you many times be snide, arrogant and vain. You are no saint. Veiled civility is not civility. You have even admitted to liking to bait people to watch them react. How civil is that? If you don't like the reactions, then stop baiting people.
Those with left leaning ideologies are still people. Not that different from those on the right. If you haven't seen the vile things said by the right, then you are blind.
Did you ever call Fatty on his use of "whirled peas"?. Nope.. you laughed at it and agreed. So please stop trying to paint your self as some sort of innocent. It is just not true.
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dirtbag
climber
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Nov 15, 2008 - 02:34am PT
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And how soon the Palin rallies are forgotten.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Nov 15, 2008 - 02:38am PT
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"And how soon the Palin rallies are forgotten."
The Palin rallies were ugly. The McCain rallies were uglier, until he finally started telling people to tone it down. Palin just egged them on.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Nov 15, 2008 - 02:43am PT
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Lois, you paint your self as a saint when you claim to have never said anything bad. You would have to be a saint to have achieved this. Reread your earlier posts about you being civil and not doing anything to offend. You say "all I did" .. this is not true. And I do fully understand how rare saints are.
And please don't paint your baiting as somehow noble. Its not. You take too much glee in getting someone to behave ugly so you can act superior.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Nov 15, 2008 - 02:58am PT
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LOL, okay Lois, I don't agree with what you say, but its cool.
Good night..
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divad
Trad climber
wmass
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Nov 15, 2008 - 09:06am PT
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Let's face it Lois, we're all a bunch of sh#t talkers here(few exceptions). In a live forum, you would get and probably deserve more respect than you do here. But this is the Taco and anarchy reigns, so put up or shut up. I thought you already knew that. I also don't think that it is necessarily a mob mentality that is attacking you as much as it is that you seem to be a source of entertainment around here. The entertainment being your inability to absorb the articulate voice of reason from Karl, John, et al.
Carry on, though.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 15, 2008 - 11:18am PT
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What I think is funny is that Lois's big complaint about "liberals" for the past few years was about their "Whining"
Now that she's not on the winning team anymore, she sounds a lot whinier.
Just sayin'
A lot of preemptive whining going on for about a guy who is months from even being able to do anything.
My advice, Pace yourself. 4-8 years is a long time and you might find your tolerance is tested before it's over
Peace
Karl
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Nov 15, 2008 - 11:57am PT
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"Tolerance for other viewpoints"
There is a generally agreed-upon term for that.....liberal.
I find it ironic that someone who ties themselves to the party of intolerance: against allowing OTHERS to do things, have things, participate in things. The party that finds itself home to anti-blacks, anti-women, anti-poor, anti-non american, anti-catholic, anti-jew, and pretty much all the other non-tolerant and hate groups in this country.
I also found it ironic that McCain, who I think is a fundamentally decent guy, found himself in a position where he was depending upon the racist vote turning out, which I'm sure disgusted him. I'm sure he finds much in common with the "good ole boys" in the south who supported him so well, because they no longer can support their cause through a good sunday lynching. (actually, I'm sure he doesn't) He just has to hold his nose while he collects their vote.
EVERY advance of any group in this country has been by class warfare with the conservative camp. It wasn't the liberals who thought that Lois's "place" was pregnant, barefoot, in the kitchen.
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
Boise
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Nov 15, 2008 - 12:03pm PT
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I'm all for whirled peas........
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Nov 15, 2008 - 01:34pm PT
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i wish i had the time to go through all the political threads i've posted to and tally the number and variety of names i've been called (hater, racist, idiot, etc.) by those who have differing views (dirtbag, dirtineye, etc.); i've always tried to attack others' ideas and positions without attacking the person(s)...i think that's what leb is getting at, and i'll risk further attacks by saying the personal attacks here on st seem to be primarily left to right rather than the other way around...of course, i'm biased
i think more shocking than the middle school experiment was the reaction by prop 8 protesters toward an elderly woman simply expressing her own beliefs: knocking her styrofoam cross out of her hand and stomping on it, shouting expletives at her, shouting her down everytime she or a local reporter tried to say something...ironic
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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Nov 15, 2008 - 01:40pm PT
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Obama supporters more likely to use cheat sticks while climbing...
if unobserved by peers... what?...can that be true?
Can't be. Liberals only keep cheat sticks near their beds in case of an emergency home inva....err no...for the midnight raid on the
poptarts stored out of reach on the top shelf!
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Nov 15, 2008 - 01:47pm PT
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Man this thread is so funny. These poor victimized conservatives.
"I said gay marriage was bad and then people called me a bigot. Their intolerance of my intolerance hurt my feelings!"
"I make broad generalizations based on very focused information that I glean from news sources that reinforce what I want to believe and then people scoff are mean when I ignore evidence to the contrary! They are so intolerant!"
Also if you think that arguing on the internet brings out people's "true nature" you're nuts.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Nov 15, 2008 - 01:56pm PT
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high, i don't object to people attacking my ideas...in fact, i welcome it because i want to know what the other side is thinking...leb is referring to the personal attacks...when i try to explain my support for prop 8, i'm called a hater and a bigot...when i criticized obama, i was called a hater and a racist
only a few (karl baba, for one), actually try to debate the ideas...the rest simply hurl invectives
you know, obama AND biden both said they oppose same-sex marriage...want a recall?
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Nov 15, 2008 - 02:06pm PT
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They did yes. Because that is the politically expedient thing to do and they both resoundingly SUPPORT civil unions for gays that are the equivalent to marriage in any way. What's your point? That they are politicians?
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Jingy
Social climber
Flatland, Ca
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Nov 15, 2008 - 02:28pm PT
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LEB - I understand you may have folks who want bad things to happen to you. And I know that many folks don't have as open a mind as they claim. This is kinda human nature. We all have biases towards the group we think we fit into.
I've interpreted what you have stated to the forum to be something like "to be liberal is to be hypocritical", or something to that nature. Can I have a moment to state that I see conservatism to mean war, and profit over people, and closed door deal-making, and generally otherwise shifty? There, we have both stated what we think.
But don't you see? Everyone has bias, there is no way around it. You opened and read this article I imagine from a paper or online information outlet (OIO), Yes? You chose to read that paper/OIO for what reason? I say, because in the past you may have been given information you found relevant and or useful in your life. Maybe you found that this paper/OIO provided the most accurate information according to your values and your needs. In the past it gave you what you needed, so you returned. Your conservative values took you back to a paper/OIO that feeds your needs to be part something, that which you identify with, and firmly believe. I go on to contend that the only reason you keep coming to this site is because it gives you something you need, and let's not forget that this is a choice you have made.
One more question: DO you think this article would have been published if mccain had won?
I see it for what it is, just chatter. It get's us nowhere closer to truth.
To be sure, I'm not clear how starting a thread with "Tolerance of Divergent Viewpoints" then pointing to a single school-girls "experiment" then pointing at the ST poster's and saying there is a clear parallel is going to win you votes, but I truely hope you find what you need.
Cheers
Post Edit: Wow! That's kinda strange.. You noted: "If there is one thing which has truly turned me off to the left and everything it represents it is Supertopo. I was never so pro GOP until I came here and see how you all think and act. If you all represent the left, I would not align with this group of people for all the money in the world."
So if we all went back to any of your initial posts here on the Taco, we'd all come away with "This person is kinda liberal/left?" I say your values were set long before you got here, you shouldn't try to pin that on the Taco.
Bad form
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Nov 15, 2008 - 03:02pm PT
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your arguments make sense, wes, if you are willing to permit ANY US citizen the right to marry...are you willing to allow three men to marry? how about four women marrying the same man? how about a brother and sister or uncle and niece or father and daughter?
if so, you've got a valid point...but only up to a point
again, denying rights based on race is against the law...denying rights based on behavior is another thing altogether...we deny convicted felons the right to vote...we deny child molesters who have served out their prison sentences the right to live and work wherever they please...we deny people old enough to vote and fight our wars the right to drink alcohol because of their behavior
personally, i have no objection to civil unions; i'll even vote for civil unions...but i believe MARRIAGE should remain between one man and one woman
so you excuse obama and biden "because they're politicians"? then why vote if you assume politicians will only and always say whatever it takes to get elected? if you thought that obama and biden would simply do the opposite of what they promised, why not vote for mccain?
finally, i believe the constitution was created, in part, to protect democracy...do you believe in democracy? if so, then consider this: the record in states that have put same-sex marriage on the ballot is 30-0 against...the people have spoken
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seamus mcshane
climber
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Nov 15, 2008 - 03:05pm PT
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Dissent is THE fundamental principle of freedom.
To the Republicans of today, dissent is un-American and socialist. Where did we go wrong???
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Jingy
Social climber
Flatland, Ca
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Nov 15, 2008 - 03:19pm PT
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bookwarm - Those are all very interesting takes... Can I ask? Is this something you "look forward" to? Or things that you've given thought to? Or where you think society will go if gay's/lesbians are given the constitutional right to marry?
Using fantasy to make an argument proves nothing but where your head is at.
Try again, please. This time using facts, it would make the argument stay here, in reality.
Post Edit: Just to be sure, most of your scenario's have been happening for year's in Utah and the South. LOOL
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jstan
climber
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Nov 15, 2008 - 03:22pm PT
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"Un-American" and " socialist" are just two sound bytes that can be thrown at anything you don't like or do not understand. They relieve one of the need to do any thinking. On the other side the two positive bytes "capitalism" and "free market" also can be thrown around without effort. Unfortunately the US no longer is truly capitalist nor does it have a free market.
Sadly, laziness has become a virtue in the US.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Nov 16, 2008 - 09:10am PT
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"Do you understand the meaning of liberty and justice for all?"
yes, i do, and i understand that "all" refers to the unborn...a fertilized egg is NOT a "potential life" but, in fact, an actual life with all the same "inalienable rights" that you and i have outside the womb...so your arguments about menstruation, miscarriages, etc. are idiotic (note, i called your arguments idiotic, not you)
the argument comes down to a simple question: when does life begin...i happen to believe life begins at conception...the fertilized egg is NOT, as someone here posited, a "potential life" but rather an actual life with all the same "inalienable rights" as a full grown adult...with that belief, i cannot sanction abortion...i can accept it (because i am not perfect) in certain circumstances: when the mother's life is in danger, when the pregnancy results from rape; but i believe taking another life just because that life MIGHT interfere with your "pursuit of happiness" is WRONG, especially when you made the CHOICE to create that life when you made the CHOICE to have sex
i believe life begins at conception because it's the only LOGICAL answer to the question: when does life begin? at the beginning, of course...it can't begin before the beginning, and it's completely illogical to say life begins after the beginning...there's only one possible moment that can LOGICALLY be called the beginning, and that is, er, the beginning...scientifically, all our dna is present at the moment of conception...
ok, wes, let's hear your beliefs on when life begins
now, i've heard many abortion supporters claim they "don't know" when life begins; so i ask you, do really want to take that chance?
our justice system demands a verdict "beyond a reasonable doubt"; in death penalty cases, i think the standard of judgment must be "beyond ANY doubt", which means, of course, that i don't believe in the death penalty because, without a confession, there will ALWAYS be a doubt
as for reality, the reality is that a majority of americans oppose same-sex marriage although i think polls show a slightly lesser majority approve of civil unions...so, go with civil unions...and, maybe, after 50 years or so, the majority will shift and change the legislation...i'm biased, but that sounds like a reasonable approach to overturning a tradition that has served humanity for millenia
as for reality, i think it's clear that our "defining deviancy down" (that's from moynihan, a LIBERAL) has proved detrimental to our society...girls gone wild is only the most obvious example...now, wes, you might look forward to seeing your daughter in one of those videos, or maybe you prefer she turn pro and get paid for her work, and i'm sure you will encourage her to do whatever makes her "happy" (because you want her to be popular, and, well, being popular makes most teenagers happy, and the boys are going to love her...well, not exactly "love", but you know what i mean) and you will assure her that sex has nothing to do with love and that if she gets pregnant (because not using a condom makes the boys happy) she can just kill her baby, oops, fetus, and all those "studies" that show young women who are promiscuous have low self esteem are just propoganda from haters, BUT, i think, the rest of us want our daughters to value their virginity and to wait patiently for a truly loving relationship with a boy who values his own virginity...of course, i realize, wes, that you probably think i sound like an idiot, but i'll take that as a compliment
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Nov 16, 2008 - 10:40am PT
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jebus, read carefully
"now, i've heard many abortion supporters claim they "don't know" when life begins; so i ask you, do really want to take that chance?
our justice system demands a verdict "beyond a reasonable doubt"; in death penalty cases, i think the standard of judgment must be "beyond ANY doubt", which means, of course, that i don't believe in the death penalty because, without a confession, there will ALWAYS be a doubt"
and your analogy makes no sense at all...the death penalty is reserved for convicted murderers...babies in the womb are INNOCENT; they're guilty of NOTHING, not even rape
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Nov 16, 2008 - 08:43pm PT
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"a fertilized egg is NOT a "potential life" but, in fact, an actual life.
An unfertilized egg is also an actual life.
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Jim E
climber
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Nov 16, 2008 - 08:53pm PT
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What about jacking off?
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Wonder
climber
WA
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Nov 17, 2008 - 12:22am PT
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Ok ok please please can this thread please die.
IGNORE
IGNORE
IGNORE
There is alot of work to bump up the OT's.
Let it go
PLEASE
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Nov 17, 2008 - 01:50am PT
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Thanks for calling so many of us Young, big Sis.
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GDavis
Trad climber
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Nov 17, 2008 - 02:06am PT
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In just in time for a weschrist temper tantrum.
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Wonder
climber
WA
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Nov 17, 2008 - 02:22am PT
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Common lois Please Stop I havent bugged you for a long time. Please move on. start a new thread about some thing positive. I know you want to be here so start a conversation about something interesting.
PLEASE.
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Nov 17, 2008 - 02:43am PT
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Lois,
They're addicted to your posts. Resistance is futile.
Whenever someone falls back on the fallacy that they're right because they are smarter than you, they've lost the argument. It's an admission that they can't meet your reasoning satisfactorily so they try to sandbag you.
What I find so amusing is the silly few that complain about your posts etc. yet never fail to show up and keep blathering on.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Nov 17, 2008 - 08:39am PT
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leb, i understand that people have different ideas about when life begins; i'm simply asking them to explain their rationale or expalin why my rationale is faulty
i'm not talking about a soul or personhood; i'm talking about LIFE; life, like ALL processes, begins at the beginning, which, in this case, is conception; you can't have a life without conception
also, i do believe that some killing is justifiable, like when the mother's life is in danger...i don't believe that birth control is a justifiable reason for abortion (killing a baby)...if you don't want to get pregnant, don't have sex; if you have sex, accept the consequences
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Nov 21, 2008 - 03:03pm PT
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Lois,
Now, I don't know if this is going to happen, but...
Obama may move toward the center--pragmatic--and throw the hard left out the window. If so, I relish the thought that I may find myself defending him against the hard left loons; that would be grand fun.
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dirtbag
climber
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Nov 21, 2008 - 05:28pm PT
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I always expected him to be a left-center President. I'll be generally pleasd with that. It was the righties, screaming about Obama's socialism and other such hyperbole, who will be surprised by his veer towards the center.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Nov 21, 2008 - 07:05pm PT
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"Obama may move toward the center--pragmatic--and throw the hard left out the window. If so, I relish the thought that I may find myself defending him against the hard left loons; that would be grand fun. "
Um.... This is why we ELECTED HIM. This is what we repeatedly stated was his appeal. YOU'RE the ones who spent the entire election cycle arguing that he was a Marxist (though never having actually read Marx) Seriously what planet so you guys even live on.
Thanks for proving my point though.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Nov 21, 2008 - 07:53pm PT
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LEB-
On what are you basing that assessment of him? Other than the election propaganda that he was "the most liberal Senator." You are stating an opinion as fact. What he ran on and what he said he would do and what I have repeatedly stated what my support for him was based on was his bipartisanship and his ability to bring people together.
My instinct here is to elaborate but god knows where that has gotten me in the past.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 21, 2008 - 07:59pm PT
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It would be entirely in character if Obama was in most respects a pragmatic, centrist president. He won by a significant enough majority that he doesn't have to pander to anyone.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Nov 21, 2008 - 08:10pm PT
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What votes in particular, LEB? What have you seen in his voting record that makes you say this?
You continue to cling to this hope that their is some illusion about Obama that will crumble, when it is in fact reality and pragmatism that he has based his campaign and rhetoric upon. You continue to maintain a condescending view towards those who voted for Obama, who you wrongly paint as being far-left liberals when in fact it was a huge cross section of the country. It's a little sad.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 21, 2008 - 10:14pm PT
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have you noticed that Republican moderates keep cheering Obama's appointments?
Peace
Karl
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