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Greg Barnes
climber
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 16, 2008 - 12:40pm PT
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Thanks to a generous donation of 35 #3 Lost Arrows from Black Diamond, and a very generous donation of time & expertise by Theron Moses, the ASCA finally has a good stock of 1/4" tuning forks.
The tuning forks are only useful in pulling 1/4" bolts - they bend open and break if you try to pull 5/16" buttonheads or larger bolts. Thin pins are needed to start pulling most bolts, since you usually can't start with the tuning fork.
So, if anyone is looking to pull 1/4" bolts, and needs a tuning fork, the ASCA sells them for $10 (that includes shipping, and since a LA now sells for 15.95, it's not bad). You can use Paypal (but please send me an email that it's for a tuning fork), or send a check to ASCA, PO Box 1814, Bishop, CA 93515.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 16, 2008 - 01:12pm PT
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Just a note - if paying by Paypal, please go to the ASCA website ( www.safeclimbing.org ), and click on the "Make a Donation" button in the upper right. Please do not send payment to my email address - I don't even have an account!
Thanks - Greg
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Jul 16, 2008 - 02:26pm PT
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Just a plug for Greg and Theron - Theron hooked me up with a pair of these tuning forks prior to my ascent of Born Under A Bad Sign with Kate, and they were fundamental. They are superbly well made [EVERYTHING Theron makes is thus!]. We replaced a total of five or six belay bolts [out with the 1/4-inchers and in with the 3/8] and also replaced one lead rivet that Jake and Jamie pulled out with their portaledge during their ascent of PSD.
I asked Theron to also make me a tuning fork from a #1 LA, which is less aggressively tapered than the #3, and I would recommend adding this arrow to your quiver if you plan to replace a bunch of bolts. I usually started the bolt removal process using the #1, and then stacked it with the #3 once you get it going and the hanger starts to come out of the wall. Also note that you can often get things started by funking the hanger to get at least a bit of clearance between it and the rock.
I had in the past been using a couple of Bugaboo tuning forks [thick knifeblades] that Tom made for us for Bermuda Dunes and some other routes, but I never needed to use them on BUBS since the funking and #1 Arrow was always sufficient.
I was also supplied with a bunch of bolts by ASCA, but I have to say I wasn't pleased with the new models, which are the 5-piece. Why? Because you have to drill a further 1/2-inch or so than with the bolts Greg previously supplied, which are shorter. Drilling the first part of a 3/8" hole is dead easy because you are starting in a quarter-inch hole, but that last half inch is a LOT of work.
Greg, can you please explain to me again why you changed the style of bolt? I would really prefer the old-style shorter bolts for future projects if at all possible.
Sorry to be thick like a #4 LA. Thanks again for your support, guys!
Cheers,
Pete
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nature
climber
Santa Fe, NM
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Jul 16, 2008 - 03:05pm PT
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donation made. email sent.
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Jul 16, 2008 - 03:31pm PT
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Forget those whimpy tuning forks....get the Eliminator.
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slobmonster
Trad climber
berkeley, ca
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Jul 16, 2008 - 03:45pm PT
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Pete, you're whining about bolts provided to you for FREE??
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 16, 2008 - 03:48pm PT
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Pete, we stopped using stud-type bolts altogether maybe 5 years ago.
The Fixe stud bolts were 10mm and would sometimes get stuck in the hole. Fixe recently came out with 3/8" versions, so that problem should be gone. Powers and others also make stud bolts. Wedge bolts very wildly in strength, but if you get good stainless ones from the proper sources they are pretty good.
However, there are some significant problems with stud bolts. Point #1 alone is enough to keep the ASCA from using them.
1) they can never be replaced in the same hole for future replacement
2) they are weaker
3) the nut tends to loosen, and each time it is retightened the nut loses some strength.
4) work fatigue (see the section on wedge bolts here: http://www.safeclimbing.org/education/mechbolts.htm
5) the installer can cheat on length, and drill a very shallow hole, and then the top of the stud bolt sticks way out. This can significantly decrease strength, especially if the shallow hole isn't well drilled.
It should be noted that a lot of people think that 3/8" stud (ie. wedge) bolts are stronger than 3/8" 5-piece - usually this has to do with people thinking that the main bolt on a 5-piece is narrower than a stud bolt (5/16" versus 3/8" minus some threading). But that's just not the case, the 5-piece bolts are significantly stronger.
Anyway Pete, the 2.25" length bolts have been the ASCA standard for many years, with dozens of folks hand-drilling that depth for thousands of bolts, and typically the last 1/4 to 1/2" drills pretty quickly (don't have to pay attention to drill direction). You should probably try blowing the hole out more often when the hole gets deeper.
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Strider
Trad climber
one of god's mountain temples....
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Jul 16, 2008 - 04:49pm PT
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I can personally attest that if you try to pull a 5/16" bolt with the tuning fork, you will seriously screw up the tuning fork. I was able to get two bolts out with it and the fork still didn't break but it sure didn't look pretty when I was done...
Greg: is there a reason why you guys don't mill out the extra 1/16th of an inch so you can pull 5/16" as well?
-n
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Luke Malatesta
Trad climber
Moab UT
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Jul 16, 2008 - 05:44pm PT
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Greg, email sent. Thanks
Luke
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T Moses
Trad climber
Paso Robles
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Jul 16, 2008 - 07:05pm PT
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I sent Greg a Prototype 3/8 Tuning Fork made from a machinery wedge. I can make these for 5/16 also. I want it to get used and get some feedback before I make another.
Thanks Pete. You just want a set of Ruskies. ;)
Strider:
If I took more meat off that would leave less obviously. Less meat would be weaker and would spread more easliy.
Bachar:
Hmm...I have some tubing that would make a puller just like that. Have you used it? How well did it do?
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Captain...or Skully
Big Wall climber
Yonder
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Jul 16, 2008 - 07:31pm PT
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Hey, John(Bachar)....Where did you get that thing? Looks deadly. Does it do the deed? Thanks
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Jul 16, 2008 - 11:51pm PT
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OK I get it, so the 5-piece can be pulled, and the 3/8" hole re-used. I think I had one of those old 5-piece that didn't bite on the Ranch, glad to hear they have corrected that problem. I had to yank the parts out of the hole with a pair of pliers, and believe it or knott, tweezers.
Slob, I am sorely ill-equipped in the bicep department, and drilling that 3/8" El Cap granite hole an extra half-inch deeper really takes a monumental amount of extra effort. But c'est la guerre, non? Bad Sign is now in a lot better shape. If you can haul my sized loads... And yes, Greg, I blew. And blew.
On Bermuda Dunes, Tom and I squirted mouthfulls of water into the hole and this seemed to really increase the drilling speed. I forgot to try this on BUBS. You may find this counter-intuitive, but my recollection is that it worked pretty well. Maybe Tom will comment.
Thanks again for the stuff, dude. And hell, yeah, Theron, damn straight I want another set of those Russkies - they rock! Will get the photos uploaded for y'all to see shortly, also Moof's design too.
Cheers,
Pete
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Jul 17, 2008 - 01:09am PT
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the eliminator is "bad ass"!
but I'll just have to send Greg a check.
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Jul 17, 2008 - 03:56pm PT
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Just a bump and a thanks to Greg for getting this together. I have a pair of forks, one a #3, the other a cut down super long dong. $10 is a steal, send him $20 so they can buy a few more bolts for upgrades.
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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Jul 17, 2008 - 04:19pm PT
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T-Moses - I'd be interested in putting a 3/8" wedge to work. Have a need for something like that. Would pay for it (if it isn't too exorbatant) or could be your field tester...
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T Moses
Trad climber
Paso Robles
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Jul 17, 2008 - 06:22pm PT
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Talk to Greg about the 3/8 tuning fork. I don't want to make another if it doesn't work. I have a couple more tricks up my sleeve just in case.
Edit to clarify: I don't want to make another (one of that variety) if it doesn't work.
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midarockjock
climber
USA
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Jul 17, 2008 - 07:37pm PT
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Nice looking easy out.
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Jul 17, 2008 - 08:38pm PT
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Skully,
The Eliminator was a Don Best creation (along with "Quickies").
Yeah, works great on split shaft Rawl 1/4" and 5/16". Just put the pin through the bolt hanger and start turning the wrench. Smooth as silk, clean too - no rock damage.
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
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Jul 22, 2008 - 12:01am PT
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OK Baxter,
I've done my searches for "The Eliminator", "Don Best" & "Quickies" but nothin. I suppose you'll laugh when I ask, "are these available anywhere?"
Arne Boveng
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Jul 22, 2008 - 05:25am PT
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It's all work, an engineering term, that means that a certain amount of small rock has to be removed, by hand.
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