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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jun 26, 2008 - 02:29am PT
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-the news stories boiled down to this:
So on a smokey sunday morning the trip leader splits to scout
Mt Shinn leaving the other 11 O.B. hikers ($1795 per head) to hike north-east 1.5 miles from Burnt Corral meadow to Red Rock Basin,
where they would all meet up that same afternoon.
But they did not meet up.
Where was the trip leader sunday,monday, tuesday and wed.?
And the big question is WHERE the 11 other Outward Bound hikers
spent those same days? (finally showing up at the Florence Lake
store to make a phone call wed 6-25-2008)?
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apogee
climber
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Jun 26, 2008 - 03:06am PT
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CC- Where did you get the specific details about the itinerary of this trip? I spent about 10 years working for OB in this area, so I'm quite curious.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Jun 26, 2008 - 03:35am PT
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If you see a detailed news story on this, post up!
Who missed the rendezvous? The group or the guide who split off?
It seems the guide who split off had their only satellite phone. In retrospect, maybe he should have left that with the group.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 26, 2008 - 03:44am PT
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For $1795, have risks and the ability to make a mistake been excised from OB these days? As I recall from when I was a kid there were supposed to be 'challenges' involved with at least an implied risk of failure.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Jun 26, 2008 - 03:53am PT
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Yeah, when I read about what happened one of my first reactions was, "Ha, They finally got what they paid for, real adventure." These trips are usually so choreographed. Even though they were temporarily disoriented, it's not like they were in any real danger. (But try explaining that to the parents!)
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 26, 2008 - 05:35am PT
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Apogee - just what I read in several of todays news stories here on the web. No itinerary. Just what the various stories said.
Some writers give more details.
I've passed thru that area a dozen times and waved at O.B. groups (some doing roped climbing during
a dry thunder storm! ...as I scuttled past in a creek bed.
I hate it when my hair starts to buzz like an overloaded circuit breaker.
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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Jun 26, 2008 - 09:54am PT
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I'm surprised OB doesn't have more episodes like this. After what I've seen out here in the park, it's pure luck their "guides" haven't seriously injured or killed someone.
Glad everyone's ok. I'll bet the parents are happy.
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MZiebell
Social climber
Prescott, AZ
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Jun 26, 2008 - 12:18pm PT
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Can anyone find and post the incident report for this? Seems like that would be the place to start this discussion....
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slobmonster
Trad climber
berkeley, ca
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Jun 26, 2008 - 12:54pm PT
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At least they tried to find their group on their own, as opposed to immediately (and without sufficient reason) "alerting the authorities."
Of course, this happened some hours later :)
I've never been involved with OB, and can (unfortunately) echo some of the negative sentiments.
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apogee
climber
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Jun 26, 2008 - 02:32pm PT
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I spent about 10 years working for PCOBS in the Sierra (especially the Courtright area) as an instructor and as a Program Director, so you can take this point of view with a grain of salt if you like.
OB does have mishaps, incidents, and on rare occasions, fatalities. As the largest outdoor education institution in the country (and world), OB generates hundreds of thousands of participation days every year- many more than NOLS. The High Sierra Program often had 1300 participants between May-Sept, for courses between 7-22 days in length- and this was only one of many, many program areas across the country. The last fatality that PCOBS had was in 1998, and that was the first one in 25 years. Given the enormous amount of participation days that OB has, the number of actual significant injuries or fatalities is remarkably low. (Especially when compared to 'traditional' organized sports, boy scouts, etc.) When an incident does occur that hits the media, the public's perception is way, way outside of reality.
By it's nature, OB programming involves risk- when OB came to the US in the 60's, outdoor/adventure education did not exist, and society seemed to accept that this kind of activity had risk associated with it. IMO, this was largely due to the fact that outdoor/adventure ed was completely new, that risk was implicit to adventures like this, and there was virtually nothing to compare it with. Over the last 40 years, this attitude towards risk has changed a LOT- as outdoor/adventure activities have become more 'mainstream', society's expectation of 'safety' has permeated the outdoor/adventure ed industry, and the experience has become far more 'sanitized' than those in the 60's. It is easy to argue that the experience is less impactful (and I would often agree).
While the level of risk acceptance in society has changed, so has OB's management of the activities. Within the OB risk management system, there is a stated goal of zero injuries or fatalities, while acknowledging the reality that they will likely happen anyway, and training and planning is the best way to mitigate them. Accordingly, field practices have changed dramatically, and are highly structured through course planning and various safety policies. (This often brings up the controversy of judgement vs. policy driven risk management, but that is another thread altogether.) Beyond all of the social attitudes towards risk and fears of litigation is the simple reality that there is a strong desire to minimize injuries and fatalities. It may be stating the obvious, but when this happens, all pedagogical goals for the experience are negated.
Society (and parents) now expect that their children will have dramatic, life-changing experiences on OB courses, and will always return unharmed. It is a central goal of OB to ensure that this happens, as well. The delicate dance of how to achieve these life-changing experiences while accepting and mitigating the inherent risks with society's changing attitude towards risk is an incredibly difficult challenge.
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MZiebell
Social climber
Prescott, AZ
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Jun 26, 2008 - 02:39pm PT
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Thanks for posting Apogee.
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 26, 2008 - 03:51pm PT
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Put yourselves into the position of those 11 O.B. hikers.
Their trip leader was missing. No longer happy campers!
More like a death watch.
Conversation Sunday night: he could be injured and needs help!
Conversation Monday night: He's fracking dead and the animals are eating him right now! Pray for him!
Conversation Tuesday night: We better tell somebody he's gone!
Think the real story we need to hear about is how those young people dealt with their emotions. If one of my group was missing
my imagination would be going absolutely wild!
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Floridaputz
Trad climber
Oakland Park Florida
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Jun 26, 2008 - 04:28pm PT
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apogee, do you remember Randy Crawford ? he was the Director at VOBS when I was there. He came from PCOBS. It sounds like the group was on there final. The instructors are usually not too far behind. Or the good ones anyway.
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 27, 2008 - 09:58pm PT
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We all learn more from our mistakes than successes. So the
details have to be pried out of OB no matter how bad it makes
the 3 OB Instructors look (career ending? maybe-maybe not)
Outward Bound needs to post a map showing the different routes taken by the single instructor and the 9students+2instructors.
i.e. dotted lines on a Goggle Earth view for Sunday through Wed of the incident. Include times/dates and campsites.
I suspect it will be very enlightening.
After all Outward Bound is about teaching. Lots of us are
ready for a lesson.
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clustiere
Trad climber
berkeley ca
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Jun 27, 2008 - 11:10pm PT
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Yeah, I hope the participants are debriefed adequately. Interesting that the leader takes the phone with them, cause the main group has all the paying clients for whom the all the services are to be provided for. Primary concern group, secondary concern itinerary changes and alternative logistics based on safety (forecasting fire).
That said I have done much worse and been soo lucky as to get away with it.
It's easy to get comfortable and not think of the details of good decision making, especially if you have been pulling off trips successfully for some time and you haven’t had the beJesus scared out of you. That's how sloppy decision making occurs, it can happen in an unclear conversation or from under communicating. Seems pretty innocent until you are at the junction all alone going on hour two with the hair on the back of your neck reaching for the stars thinking sh#t I gotta call base with this phone that should be with the group.
My favorite is runaways at wilderness intervention programs. Nobody reports that stuff cause they are better equipped to search than most SAR teams. And HIPPA says we can't talk to the media. Looking over a big huge map and interviewing the staff and students figuring out where to concentrate your limited resources in a reasonable estimated perimeter and following your gut in collaboration with good research in search of a track or other sign.
Following an ever sharpening set of tracks through the desert with plains flying ahead to look for a kid in army surplus clothing (good luck). I love that kind of search call me up.
Zibell you taught us well
challenge your staff give em scenarios and debrief em seriously. Create a SOP.
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 27, 2008 - 11:32pm PT
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I think the telling of details of my own epics are vastly
amusing. The bigger the mistakes the more I laugh as well
as listening/reading of others botched trips.
Its life guys! Stuff happens. We learn and move on.
The Outward Bound should trust the community of climbers
and wilderness hikers to forgive them as long as they just come clean on the details.
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apogee
climber
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Jun 28, 2008 - 12:14am PT
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It has been my experience that generally, OB has been remarkably candid about the details of many incidents, though it may not occur during the time that an incident is in the media/public eye. OB’s crisis response SOP’s are considered models of the outdoor education industry- when an incident occurs, great care is used to ensure that adequate information is released for public knowledge, with respect to the needs of those who are involved, and family members. The media melee that occurs during and immediately following an incident spurs lots of misinformation and armchair speculation; concurrently, in depth investigations about the details of the incident are usually underway, and are followed by alterations in procedures and practices. By the time a typical incident is fully investigated and conclusions are drawn, the media has lost interest, and very few ever learn about the outcomes.
Many incidents are made quite available for study and review, however, and are often presented at industry conferences such as the Wilderness Risk Management Conference. Others are not, for reasons of sensitivity to family members, or on occasion, legal reasons. As an example, Outward Bound has developed an ‘Instructor Judgment Training’ program that is offered regularly at conferences and at various OB program areas, based on real incidents used as case studies to help develop judgment.
OB works very hard to foster a culture of openness about incidents, to help the program improve via others experiences (and misjudgments). In my experience, there is generally far more openness in this regard within the OB community than I have experienced or observed in any other program or institution, including NOLS, or technical guiding programs.
(On a side note, the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act (HIPAA) is aimed at the protection of personal medical information- the only implication related to the media would be in respect to restrictions on releasing that type of information to the media.)
I have learned the hard way that rapid judgments I have made about other’s decision making have usually been proven wrong. I was personally involved in the Internal Incident Review of the 1998 PCOBS fatality, and after learning all of the details of the instructor's decisions and actions, learned the significance of the phrase ‘there but for the grace of God go I’. At one time or another, we have all been faced with difficult situations and judgments that, in retrospect, seem crystalline clear. These instructors deserve that benefit of the doubt until such time that any of us fully learn the details of the incident.
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clustiere
Trad climber
berkeley ca
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Jun 28, 2008 - 01:02am PT
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Yeah good call on HIPPA. NEws is news and can get out when it is necessary for the public to be notified. It's funny what doesn't get reported. Detailed bedriefs are helpfull for all.
No question of OB's integrity in regards to safety. I have heard more incidents from that particular program but that is likely because of their size.
I guess I alwayse felt like we got less light shone on us because we rarely if ever called in government support in a search because we were better prepared to deal with the situation given our resources. We are also a small company, Wilderness Quest.
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 28, 2008 - 02:37am PT
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...those who are familiar with the area know its easily possible to
hike (w/pack) from Florence Lake store to Maxon trailhead in a day
on trails and the DUSY-ERSHIM OHV ROUTE.
Also a round trip from the Mt Shinn area down to grab a 6-pack at Florence Lake store
and back would be shorter and not a problem if you stashed most of your gear at Mt Shinn.
I remember they have a video camera at the Florence store.
Wonder who's face might be seen on the sunday disc?
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