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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Dec 30, 2007 - 08:42pm PT
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Nope, not this time, Pete. lol
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Dec 30, 2007 - 08:47pm PT
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Thanks, Pete. I'm relieved that it passed inspection. You had me worried there for a minute.
Sheesh, even geeks are cool now.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 30, 2007 - 11:10pm PT
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Is that a "yes, I had climbed an established pitch A3 or harder which was longer than 100'" or a "no, I had not climbed an established pitch A3 or harder which was longer than 100'?"
How many hook moves in total on your surviving Riverside Quarry routes and what were they rated by consensus?
Once the hammer pick and drill come into play, the sustainability of your work becomes an issue of interest. The basic problem for any prospective repeat ascent is that you guys didn't craft your route with anything but your own passage in mind. The original hook placements dimpled or not have likely deteriorated or failed due to the intense tip pressure inherent in the narrow Logan hook design.
The initial state and difficulty of this particular route is important because subsequent ascents will constantly deal with the drill-to-suit quandry. The first ascent party reached for the drill when modification seemed necessary for security sake, why shouldn't I, but how much is OK? By being vague about the number and extent of your hooking modifications you don't really provide that next party with much of a basis upon which to make their decisions.
First, the extent of modifications was deemed unimportant by you gents. Then you claimed that you couldn't remember exactly, which seemed rather implausible given your meticulous records. Then it was 8-10 total and now it sits at 15% of 151 or roughly 22? Right?
When I swung over to pith 9 of WOS from the Horse Chute, it was easy to spot your hook placements because many featured a tiny drilled dimple. Nobody else had been there and I don't have trouble recognizing a drill mark.
The funny thing is, over on pitch 6 of the Jolly Roger I went 6 hooks in row from top steps or above without any modification and we felt that the pitch only warranted A4+. Narrow Logan hook placements are very rare in my natural hooking only approach because they tend to shear off most microflakes with a rear fracture.
By the time that I did the Jolly Roger, I had done lots of hooking and the limitations of the narrow Logan hook had prompted me to fill in three sizes by tip grinding the wide Logan hook down. Charles also had an arsenal of custom hooks based on his experiences. Without the experience and the proper hardware we could not have an outstanding and well appreciated result.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 31, 2007 - 12:00am PT
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To all of you.
I'm gonna say this to you in a very calm and sincere voice just so you know.
Let it go. Just let it go.
This is the stuff mortals fight over. Don't carry it to your graves or you'll have to relive it again in the future.
It's for all of you and your own benefit to let this go and go beyond.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Dec 31, 2007 - 12:05am PT
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Steve Grossman: "When I swung over to pith 9 of WOS from the Horse Chute, it was easy to spot your hook placements because many featured a tiny drilled dimple. Nobody else had been there and I don't have trouble recognizing a drill mark.
Steve, your assumption is incorrect. Another party not only has climbed to the top of pitch 9 of WOS, but they report modifications that appear to have been added subsequent to the first ascent. "The Chief" reports "there were quite a few new shiney rivets here and there. And some of the hangers/bolts looked fresh."
http://www.summitpost.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=18794&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=240&sid=b788d7c03bd7a71bf935f2ea850c2443
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 31, 2007 - 12:15am PT
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I was up there in 1984 en route to doing Horseplay? Where were you?
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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Dec 31, 2007 - 12:31am PT
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necessitas probandi incumbit ei qui agit
"the necessity of proof lies with he who complains"
And with statements like this:
"I just talked with one of the Poo Crew and he remembers little more than a body length spacing anywhere."
Which is completely at odds with a first hand report of someone who has actually tried to climb the route.
Forgive me if I don't put any more trust in the lynch mob and the pooh crew.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Dec 31, 2007 - 12:44am PT
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Steve, is that a "No, I have never been to the base of the route?" I'll take your unwillingness to admit the fact as a "no," since you only mention swinging over onto the ninth pitch.
Ahhh, your observations of the ninth pitch. Old news, Steve, old news. We've already covered that before. Now you try to float the claim that "Nobody else had been there." HOW in the world can you assert that with any confidence, much less claim to know it? Ridiculous. That ninth pitch is the easiest pitch of the whole route to get onto, and if you think that you are the only person that has ever swung over onto that pitch, you are hilariously deluded. Let's ask one question: if we were drilling our hooks on the ninth pitch (one of the easier pitches on the route), WHY were we not drilling our hooks on the hard pitches? Makes no sense, Steve.
But, of course, sense is the farthest thing from your side of this topic, especially since you have never bothered to actually SEE the route about which you have viciously libeled and slandered for decades.
Regarding our modification tally, why would we have kept a tally of things that we considered insignificant then and now? Again, you try to make a deep, dark mystery out of that which is clear.
You keep asking for more and more irrelevant information. Here's the problem, Steve. You have made it clear on many posts that you simply don't believe what we say. Furthermore, you take everything we say and do your best to twist and manipulate it to suit your purposes, and then we spend inordinate time trying to respond to your new waves of BS. The most recent example? "First, the extent of modifications was deemed unimportant by you gents. Then you claimed that you couldn't remember exactly, which seemed rather implausible given your meticulous records. Then it was 8-10 total and now it sits at 15% of 151 or roughly 22? Right?" No, wrong! Show me where I have ever said 15%. Most recently, on this very thread, I said that the number was no more than 10%. So, on THIS very thread you have twisted my words to make it appear that the number keeps escalating, when the escalation is ONLY in your own mind.
You are determined to justify your groundless campaign of lies, and you ask me for more detailed information than I have already provided? Why should I give you one more iota of information, when you clearly have no other use for it than to twist it or ignore it as best suits you?
You make MUCH over this enhancement issue. You say the route is not repeatable/sustainable, etc. "Drill to suit?" Bah. If people have the same ethic we had on the route, where any modifications are not even visible, then that will be just fine. SHOW me the El Cap route that hasn't sprouted fresh modifications from the SA on! By your logic NO El Cap route is "repeatable/sustainable." On EVERY route necessary features deteriorate, fall off, etc. EVERY subsequent team, especially on early repeats, ends up adding their own touch to a route. And the smaller the features are, the MORE this fact holds true. Don't single WoS out for special condemnation on this point. I will NOT respond to this ridiculous double-standard regarding "enhancement" until you/mimisoft respond to our legitimate question on the "Peace and Love" thread.
Worse, your own post contains a pathetic inconsistency. You claim that our approach to the route is unsustainable because we were using such tiny features that we had to "modify" some of them, but these modifications MUST be pretty tiny because you admit that much of what we hooked/modified has surely fallen off since the FA. Yet, you also state that our "modifications" are clearly visible on the ninth pitch. You can't have it both ways. Either we drilled straight-in pits (which we have always denied), and so like other routes of this type the route is repeatable; or, as we have claimed, our FEW "enhancements" were so minor that they are invisible, in which case you are creating a tempest in a teapot.
I remind you of the history of slander/libel, a history, by the way, of which you have been a KEYNOTE speaker: the route is a bolt ladder, the route is a rivet ladder, the route is heavily drilled, the route is very enhanced, the route is trivially "enhanced," and finally all we can debate about is whether or not the route is repeatable/appealing. YOU have spread what are now known to be LIES for decades. YOU have done this without even bothering to hike to the base and scope the route out. YOU have posted as many lies about the route as these forums could sustain. And finally YOU are backed down to the point where all you can try to hassle us about is whether or not people can repeat the route in good style.
ALL I hear you saying now is that you have ZERO experience with WoS style hooking, so you literally don't know what is possible. YOU have always thought of yourself as the ultimate "bad ass" aid climber/hooker, but here is something you don't know anything about. So, instead of finding out, you simply spread lies.
***
Let's get down to it, Steve. You're Mr. Bad Ass aid climber, while I'm just an "inexperienced kid" (although I'm almost 50 now, hehe). So, let's get the rubber on the road, shall we? Here's my proposal:
You pick the bad ass, death route of your choice on El Cap. The only constraint I require is this: it must be an AID route. (I'm an old fart now, and can no longer climb 5.10x.) I'll do up to 5.9 comfortably, so keep it mostly aid. I'll SOLO this route. Pick your poison, Steve. This is your big chance to sic me on a death route.
In exchange, you SOLO the SA of Wings of Steel. You likely won't die on that one!
We will have, I'm sure, plenty of people happy to rap/jug to document the ascents. And don't worry about "enhancing" the hooks. I'll give you YOUR (and only your) estimate of 15%. In fact, let's go nuts. Go ahead and "enhance" 25 of your hook placements. The only rule is that each "enhancement" must be invisible when you are finished creating it.
This is MORE than fair, Steve, so don't wuss out on me. I'll do the route of your choice! I have no idea what route you would choose, and it might even be TWICE as long as WoS. Make it a loose one; I'm not afraid of loose. Make it a hooking route, Steve. There's no hooking you have ever done that is going to blow my shorts off. Really, I don't care. Pick the route, as long as it's an AID route on El Cap, and I'll SOLO it. At the SAME time, you SOLO Wings of Steel. By the real, initial start.
Cool, huh? How can you pass this up? YOU get your big chance to possibly, literally KILL two birds with one stone. Who knows what will happen to me on the route? And you will get to prove your points on WoS! Of course, the points will HAVE to be carefully documented. I want unbiased third parties watching everything up close and personal. But, let's settle it once and for all. It's soooo fair. I know nothing about the route you would choose for me, and clearly you know nothing about WoS! The beauty of this proposal for me is that whatever route you choose for me, I probably won't take a fall on it; but I guarantee you are gonna take falls on WoS. Maybe it will even cost you an ankle like the route cost me... maybe more. Cool, huh? Ante up. Put your flesh and joints where your mouth is. It's cheap and easy to bash on a route you haven't even seen.
I don't want to hear excuses, and I still await your/mimisoft's answer about the ridiculous double-standard regarding "enhancements" from the "Peace and Love" thread. So, don't keep asking me for more and more details about my life. As Joe wisely noted above, the only thing that matters is what's written in the stone. So, go up and see if you can follow my (and Mark's) handwriting, Steve. It's only "body length between drilling," right? Otherwise, can you for once in literally decades, simply shut up and stop lying? If you won't take up this obviously more than fair challenge, then you have nothing more to say or ask.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Dec 31, 2007 - 12:53am PT
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Well, a lot happened while I was writing my last post, including Werner's post. It's simple and has some wisdom. However, I am concerned that whenever we fail to respond, we are later accused of dodging. It's been very hard to know how best to respond over the decades. Trying to let the lies roll off of our backs proved ineffectual. Responding has seemed to some as defensiveness and raving. Please do cut me a bit of slack after decades of lies. At this point, my MO is to respond when slandered/libeled.
If quitting the discussion is best at this point, then it's simple to stop the discussion: just quit slandering/libeling us. The route awaits for anybody that cares. Let it speak.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Dec 31, 2007 - 01:20am PT
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Actually, it just occurs to me that I have not left you any graceful, save-face alternative here. And that is wrong. I'm being serious. So, let me put it like this, Steve. If you want to say, "Well, this has escalated pretty far, and I'm ready to let it go," then I'm ready to let it go too. Your call.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 31, 2007 - 01:36am PT
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I have spent lots of time along the base of El Cap, fool. Even though you write that the other little boys were coveting your prized Slab, I was probably the only one around that seriously considered heading up into that blankness.
First you threaten me with legal action and now a soloing duel to the Death!! The only problem is that anything goes with you with respect to hacking, chipping and chiseling while I just say no, so it's hardly a fair duel. LOL! As the Unstoppable Philosopher King armed with such tactics, you can, and have, travelled over the stone at will.
If you were half a man at the time of your little fecal persecution, you would certainly have been able to find out who the perpetrators were and come to some understanding. Not quite so big and tough back in those days. Trying to get the job done with a ranger sticking out of your ass was safe enough but fruitless.
Yes or no? The 100' A3, that is. Your turn.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Dec 31, 2007 - 01:46am PT
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So it goes. You punt. And you continue to lie. We did the fifth ascent of the Sea in perfect style, adding no modifications, etc. to the route. That fact is beyond dispute at this point. And we took zero falls on the route. I know how to do a route without adding anything to it.
As I said, BOTH of our ascents will be carefully documented. People can be present to verify the style of both of our ascents. ALL I'm asking is that you actually get ON the route you are bashing. Of course I know I'll have to make that worth your while. Hence my proposal.
You continue to blow smoke and call names, but I'm serious. I'll respond no more to you outside of the context of you rising to my challenge. Oh, and btw, your ascent of WoS shouldn't be "to the death," unless you are totally incompetent.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Dec 31, 2007 - 01:51am PT
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It won't help, Jody. Steve doesn't listen to the evidence already before him from other credible people. I want him to see for himself, and see if he's still got more to say after that. Let him put his flesh and joints where his mouth is. Talk is cheap and easy. Let's see if he can get up it (without a cheat stick, of course).
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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Dec 31, 2007 - 01:52am PT
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At least Jodi's got the smoke blowing phase of the mission down pat.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Dec 31, 2007 - 01:54am PT
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Steve Grossman: "If you were half a man at the time of your little fecal persecution, you would certainly have been able to find out who the perpetrators were and come to some understanding. Not quite so big and tough back in those days"
And earlier this month: "Poor confused poseurs, left with no credibility again."
Steve, this sounds like stuff a third grader would say. Werner is right. Mark and Richard should just let it go and not waste time responding to this crap.
You made false statements in print that you cannot escape from. No wonder you are so desperate. It is now you that lacks credibility.
Why should anyone believe anything you say? Can you prove you didn't enhance your hook placements on Jolly Roger? You claim you did not, but your word is no longer reliable. So how about it, can you prove it?
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Dec 31, 2007 - 01:56am PT
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Richard,
Your post of 9:44pm does not advance the discussion (as you seem aware of as well). The speculation about Steve's motives and complaining about past posts is not helpful. You can do better than this by simply answering the questions, even if it seems like they are repeats.
[Edit: the question about %modified hooks was answered - < 10% ; I missed that.]
possible p9 chronology:
1981 FA - Mark Smith, Richard Jensen
1984 Steve Grossman swings over to p9 from Horse Chute, and notices drilled dimples on some of the hook placements
1996 "The Chief", Thor Pelot climb to top of p9, and report some new/fresh appearing bolts (which they did not place).
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Dec 31, 2007 - 02:05am PT
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Clint, if you reread Steve Grossman's post, you'll see that there aren't any serious questions to be answered on WOS other then his request for confirmation that 15% were enhanced. Richard did answer this by calling bullshit on Steve.
Steve's questions about the Riverside Quarry are simply not relevant and answering them would not advance the discussion at all. However, the "speculation about Steve's motives" goes to the heart of this discussion.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Dec 31, 2007 - 02:11am PT
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graniteclimber,
Steve's post of 8:10pm contains several questions that are answerable, and at least relevant to Steve's understanding of the situation. I think they are worthy as well.
Even if the questions seem irrelevant or repeats, I believe answering them would advance the discussion.
Speculating about motives usually does not advance things.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Dec 31, 2007 - 02:13am PT
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Jody,
You need one of these:
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Dec 31, 2007 - 02:18am PT
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"I was probably the only one around that seriously considered heading up into that blankness."
Wow, impressive. [even for a third grader]
"I just talked with one of the Poo Crew and he remembers little more than a body length spacing anywhere."
Oh for frig's sake, you pathetic wankers! Walk your lazy ass up to the base of El Cap with a pair of binoculars, and LOOK! You can bloody see everything clearly because there's nothing in the way of your view, it's a flat slab! You can see how bloody far apart the bolts are!
Sheesh.
Richard, shut up already. Geeeeez.....
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