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MSmith
Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 11, 2006 - 04:53pm PT
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Lovegasoline, In response to your post at the end of XXV, in an earlier thread I stated that right after the climb we drew a topo which, as I recall, noted every drilled placement and whether it was a bolt or rivet. A copy of this topo was given to SAR and was later adapted by Meyers/Reid for their guidebook. I’ve been the one who has keep most of the notes on WoS and I can’t find the Lost Topo™. I do have a guidebook-ready topo which was probably adapted from the Lost Topo™, but it shows little more than the current guidebook shows (which is more than sufficient for anyone to do the SA). As far as noting which hooks were modified, no such topo ever existed because we never took notes on or thought to take notes on such things. When we say we modified a flake, we don’t mean that we drilled a small hole at the back of the flake. We mean that we chipped crystal(s) from atop the flake to make a pad for the tip of a Leeper Narrow to sit on. A topo noting the location of modifications would be meaningless because on a repeat ascent you would not be able to identify the modifications.
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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Aug 11, 2006 - 05:04pm PT
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i should say, just in the spirit of clarifying other posts i have made, that while i personally would be uncomfortable with doing that, i do respect the fact that you are open and honest about the fact that you included that tactic in your quiver, and i think the spirit w/ which you minimized the physical impacts of those enhancements could be in many ways related to the idea of not doing it at all (although that sounds really strange).
i guess what i mean is that, while for me to do exactly what you did would for me represent a desecration of the rock itself, even if only a very small one. nevertheless, i can see how you could decide that for you, to do that would not represent anything of the sort.
that is not to say that i condone the action itself (and in fact i would love to climb in a world where such things are universally taboo), but simply that i do not now condemn you for it. i am not sure that is/was always clear (or that i myself was always clear about it).
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MSmith
Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 11, 2006 - 05:08pm PT
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Matt, regarding "i am not sure that is/was always clear (or that i myself was always clear about it)", I think you were very clear and that your stated view is really reasonable.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Aug 11, 2006 - 05:12pm PT
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Thank you, Matt. Many things are coming clearer and clearer to all of us as the dialog continues, and I do appreciate your position. Thanks for your contributions to that clarity...
even if you did just jump on MY earlier bandwagon--MINE, MINE, MINE!
Uhh, sorry.
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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Aug 11, 2006 - 05:13pm PT
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OH F*#K YOU MARK!!!!
why are all of you god fearing dickheads always so god damn nice all the time?!?
oops-
wait-
is it the weekend yet?
i think i nedd a chill pill or something, i'm outta here...
(edit- f*#k you too ricky, "pooooop!" =)
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Aug 11, 2006 - 05:17pm PT
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"Ricky?" Ok, that's it... I'm huntin' you DOWN! NOW, you'll see "nice!"
Have a great weekend, dude.
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MSmith
Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 11, 2006 - 05:17pm PT
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I have to confess that for all the brew-ha-ha that's come of our modifications I wish we could have found a way to be forthright and at the same time let people assume that there were no modifications since there are none to be found at this point in time. I will say that having to do over I wonder if we could have accomplished the same end by grinding the tip our hook back and forth and/or banging the top of the hook with a biner. I think that would have been better accepted.
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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Aug 11, 2006 - 05:20pm PT
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"let people assume that there were no modifications"
quit drinkin that canadian kool aid, biatch
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MSmith
Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 11, 2006 - 05:20pm PT
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OH F*#K YOU MARK!!!!
why are all of you god fearing dickheads always so god damn nice all the time?!?
Matt, just for you I'm posting some profanity if admitedly by cut-n-paste. Plus I can be nice because I've got Richard to get in your face (part of the reason I climb with him, doncha know).
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Aug 11, 2006 - 05:24pm PT
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Now you ARE being too nice, Mark. Check out the "Ethics" thread, and step up to the plate! We've got nothing to apologize for about this, and we've been prepared all along to take whatever came our way in these threads. Peter just posted about all the whacking, banging, and pitting they were doing on ZM. Suddenly it's a "reasonable compromise to avoid drilled placements." ZM is a GREAT route, and those guys were GREAT climbers! Are you gettin' soft on me now?
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MSmith
Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 11, 2006 - 05:34pm PT
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DUDE, I'm just SAYING that his ONE STUPID POST, is a reasonable rational view, not MY VIEW, or even the BEST VIEW, but a REASONABLE POSITION to hold as THINKING PERSON. DUDE, it's over between us. YOU write the COOL BOOK, get most all the PRAISE (remember you getting credit for the first solo of Horse Chute when it was ME THAT SOLOED THE PIECE OF TRASH ROUTE). And now when I use ALL CAPS it's looking like I'm just your pawn because it's become your TRADEMARK. We've done our last climb together.
--Mark
PS, I might take that back if you would reconsider idea of the 360 degree HD girdle.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Aug 11, 2006 - 05:37pm PT
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Snorting out my nose... getting a tissue... trying to regain control.
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Roger Breedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Aug 11, 2006 - 05:42pm PT
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Well, now we're getting an idea of how you guys managed to spend 390 day up there!!!
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MSmith
Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 11, 2006 - 05:44pm PT
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Yah, well, you should. I've been wounded too, you know.
PS So what about the HD gig? We could break our own record. =)
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Aug 11, 2006 - 05:45pm PT
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Uhh, Roger, man, you've got an extra zero there! It only FELT like 390 days. :-)
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Aug 11, 2006 - 05:47pm PT
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It really would take us 390 days for that project. By that time we'd be so old we'd need wheelchairs--almost do already.
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Roger Breedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Aug 11, 2006 - 05:49pm PT
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HeeHee
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MSmith
Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 11, 2006 - 06:00pm PT
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Richard, it's totally doable in a season. 1.5 miles, add a third for ascents/raps, comes to only a little over 2 miles. The dikes on the south side (A5 no doubt) are going to go really slow, but the front side traverse is already up (although we'll be hauling about 14 bags, so anchors will need another 3 bolts each). A pitch and a half a day on the front and 2 days/pitch on the back, plus rest days, rain ... I figure the climb could come in under 100 days, although knowing us we better take 120 days food and water just to play it safe.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Aug 11, 2006 - 06:03pm PT
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Stop, man. My sinuses are going to explode. YOU can't get any time like that off, and besides, we're both virtually cripples. Stop, you're killing me.
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MSmith
Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 11, 2006 - 06:10pm PT
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Alright, alright, you're right, I can't get that much time off. Oh for the days of youth when one could dream. But mark my words, some day the pendulum will swing, quick and fast will be out and the rage will return for Grade VI meaning "3 or more days", not "3 or more hours." And when that happens some young gun will bag the mother of all girdles in 97 days and from my rest home palmtop I'll search the SuperTopo archives and throw your rejection back in your face.
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Maysho
climber
Truckee, CA
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Aug 11, 2006 - 07:11pm PT
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hmm. kinda reluctant to chime in here. but here goes
I don't want to skirt my presence or attitude as a member of the oft referred to Valley climbing community of 1982. Hindsight examination of the minuitae of 'what you tapped where' is one thing, the big picture is more relevant. On a side note, ZM and Aurora were classic lines that had been tried by others but not touched in 5 and 1 years respectively, and so were somewhat public domain and subject to community scrutiny, (our buds helped carry loads to the base.)
1982, I was hanging at Fish's van and with other friends in the C4 lot when I could what with the guide job, pregnant girlfriend etc. I sprayed with authority about your climb back then. By the standards of the day the clear critique was that the line was forced up the grand slab, that 39 days was rediculous, and that the lack of local track record or even just hanging out and getting to know the residents was a problem that probably led to the error in judgement in the first place. I did not approve of the bad treatment you received at the time, the rowdy, sometimes out of control fringe were my friends, but as stated I was on a different path.
I have been consistant with critiquing "over the top" ascents on El Cap, from the spanish epic, to my friends Kurt and Scott trying to free the Muir. Their circus like, high profile presence on the wall made an nps response inevitable, though their effort was futuristic it defied the environmental (in true sense) ethic of the time. Likewise today leaving fixed lines all the way up walls is "over the top" and must be condemed.
To defend our local socialbility back then, many visitors came, spent a little time, and kicked ass in the Valley, becoming seasonal locals themselves. This tradition started before Kor, and in our day we had many friends who were doing new routes coming in from Canada, Colorado, etc. Maybe our scene was too hedonistic for you back then, and so, indirectly, you have suffered as a persecuted Christian?
On the plus you were visionaries who were seeing what, in hindsight, was a futuristic line, and were misunderstood. On the minus, you did not have an aid climbing aesthetic that was appreciated by the local cognesceti at the time. This was not from how the moves were made, or how hard it may have been, or your likeability.. It really boiled down to comparison with the Aquarian, Dihedral, Cosmos, Lurking, etc. ie. WOS was not deemed classic by the standards of the day, flawed, parochial, or rightous they may have been.
I am sorry for you that you suffered, I am embarrassed as a Yos community member that someone went nuts and defiled your stuff. I hope this forum has been cathartic for you. Do you still climb? If so, stop typing and go climbing!
Peter
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MSmith
Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 11, 2006 - 07:22pm PT
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"Do you still climb? If so, stop typing and go climbing!"
Yes, and good advice. I still have a climber's heart, at least. Family realities have shaped my climbing, but even more so is flexor and extensor tendonosis which isn't something I can do much about. My wife keeps telling me that climbing is a mindset, not an ability level. She's right, of course.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Aug 11, 2006 - 07:40pm PT
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Thank you, Peter, for your perpective on matters. I think this forum has been very good for us in many ways. I also think that the discussion has been good for others. We have all learned things from each other, but, most importantly, have (at least it appears in most cases) come to a mutual understanding and respect.
Now that things have "simmered down" a bit, I'm looking forward to "lurking" more, posting less, and getting back to a more normal life again. This dialog has been insanely time consuming. But I am very grateful to those who have engaged in it. In this case I think there has been light along with the heat.
Thanks again, Peter.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Aug 12, 2006 - 01:10am PT
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"We saw you guys up there. We were watching the circus on the Excalibur"
 Mike Mathers, upon greeting PTPP and Tom after their 13-day camping trip
Circus. Of course. Two clowns putting on a show for the tourists in the Green Dragon
What's wrong with that?
If one group prefers a one day marathon, and another a leisurely two-week drift, why call one better than the other? Yosemite is a national park - owned by all of us - with all sorts of recreational possibilities.
Are you going to sit on a rock near Happy Isles, and talk smack to hikers with trekking poles? Or tell a guy with a fishing pole at the El Cap bridge he's completely out of his mind?
I think that Mark and Richard did a ballsy FA, and if the locals were peeved that the blank slab was being done before they figured out how to do it, screw them.
The fact is, they climbed a line that had been looked at for years, and which nobody else knew how to climb.
The route speaks for itself: nobody else has been able to climb it.
If "too many bolts" is still the argument against Wings of Steel, go climb it, and report it as having too many bolts.
But, don't sit at the base and say it should have been done differently.
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elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
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Aug 12, 2006 - 08:40am PT
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It seems everyone has decided which point in the controversy to latch on to and to focus on.
Without assigning a name to each viewpoint, they are:
Hook enhancements
Sick hooking
Zmacs/ artficial difficulty
39 days
Fecaphelia (and I am glad I don't know how to spell that...)
Going up the Slab in the first place
Unfair treatment/ slander & lies
impact vs usage
Their right to breathe the same air as "us"
I would submit that these are all elements of a bigger picture, and no one can have a rational position without being concillatory on at least a few of the points.
After openning my mind to hear all sides without predjudice, I am left with an understanding of how and why this whole thing started, escalated, and persists.
As I see it, it stems from a fundamental difference in philosophy of action and impact. As such full "reconcilliation" is not possible or even a desired result.
The locals seem to have grasped the difference, but "they" still express " not getting it".
It's not really about style, OR ethics. It is about the intent of the action in the first place. The fundamental precept of Buddhism is that desire causes suffering, and only through acceptance of ones surroungs, can one achieve enlightenment.
Imposition of will is the flaw of pride that binds one to Samsara, the wheel of suffering and reincarnation.
The locals felt to go up on the stone was to accept what the stone is and to try to exist in that reality. Of course some compromises will need to be made on sight in terms of speed, sustainability, available technology, and reasonable safety.
The "newguys" felt the locals didn't own the stone, and they could do what ever they wanted, as they heard that's what the locals got to do.
Edit/delete- Because some people have small minds and prejudices.
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nvrws
climber
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Aug 14, 2006 - 06:03pm PT
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Mark,
I think if you worked at it you could stretch it to 11/2 years. You included rest days but forgot the sabath days. Conceivably that could be 2 non-climbing days per week. Plus, in order to meet the "ethics")yikes! You'd need to drill by hand. After a few weeks the tendonitis would set in and by the time you take enough ibuprofen, well then.. Wham. Bleeding ulcer, which would of course lead to the anemia, which would definitely sloooow youuuu downnnnnnn even more. I think we have an epic in the works.
tim
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blue eyed debil
Social climber
right here, right now
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Aug 15, 2006 - 10:17am PT
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Man, Brenda told me about this and I am soooo glad I stopped by to check out the hubbub. Richard, I aint seen you or talked with you in YEARS so, this was a real treat for me. Sorry to everyone else b/c this is not going to be about climbing stone (the only climbing I do is on my wife's ass every now and then). Richard, reading your posts reminds me of how much I always loved you and why. Articulate, intelligent and passionate to the brink of being dangerous (to yourself) and ABSOLUTELY one of the most genuine and honest souls I have ever met. Mark is up there, too. I remember the first time I met you (actually had to do with WOS!) and you were talking in a group of people and I looked at you and thought, wow! here is a man with the ability to put to words all these complex thoughts that I myself was having but was too ignorant to articulate. By the way, it may be the SOL has run, brother, on a lawsuit for slander or libel. Although, it sounds to me that what some j/o wrote in a book about you has definitely damaged your ability to get published.
Anyway, it would be great to get an email from you if you have enough time to write outside of this blog and your fingers are not too cramped. You can email me at troycifer@yahoo.com
peace
troy
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Aug 15, 2006 - 01:14pm PT
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How cool has this whole WoS saga been here on McTopo? Here is an old friend of Richard's -Troy - whom he might never have met otherwise, suddenly appearing out of the woodwork. While there has been plenty of "bad" for Mark and Richard here, you can sure see how the tide has turned mostly towards the "good". [Rom 8:28]
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Aug 15, 2006 - 01:43pm PT
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Hey, Troy. Good to hear from you! I'll be in touch, for sure.
Too funny: dangerous to myself. Hmmm my history does seem to bear that out. Dang it! That's not funny at all! ;-)
Thanks, Troy.
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Bart Fay
Social climber
Redlands, CA
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Aug 15, 2006 - 02:26pm PT
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Wow elcapfool, that's one f'd-up analogy.
Next try one with Hitler and Chanukah.
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Mimi
climber
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Dec 28, 2007 - 10:17pm PT
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Thus begins the battle of Da_Dweeb, The Unlucky. For those people actually interested in this on-going mindnumbing plukefest, don't overlook these most recent WOS followup threads. And don't be too put off by the ensuing omnipresent BwanaBlather.
Lest we forget, thanks to the revisionists Mark and Richard, one of the main points they continue to skew is how many times they enhanced with a drill their 150 or so hook placements. And when finally pressed in the past, they defend their actions stating that they were equal and better than Bridwell and Mayfield on El Cap and it was perfectly okay to enhance their route like they did. I think the last admission was 8-10 times. People could hear them chipping and drilling from the ground. And the same was done again on the two other routes they did on El Cap.
The 39 days on a partial route and huge pile of trash were other issues. The list goes on including their bonehead attitude and overall incompetence. Find the book, it tells all about their 'record 39-day ascent...and powerful spiritual odyssey' and as has been said before, it makes fine toilet reading. In the Book of Dick, all things are revealed. Not to mention the WOS site itself.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=237614&msg=239248#msg239248
http://www.jensenconsultations.com/climbing/wos/wos.html
And this classic also addresses the debate:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=253293&msg=254239#msg254239
Many more questions remain unanswered than answers go unquestioned. In closing, I leave you with the secret handshake after they both rimmed out.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Dec 28, 2007 - 10:45pm PT
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It's all speculation, until a team finishes the second ascent.
It's incredible, to me, that the line, trashed as being done by hammering, can't be repeated by others eager to prove their dementhesis.
I think the line is legitimate, and difficult.
And, the lack of a second ascent is, a fortiori, proof of its validity.
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Mimi
climber
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Dec 28, 2007 - 10:49pm PT
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Tom, uhhh, no. Nearby observation from the ground was what got them into trouble and confirmed suspicion about their competence and level of preparation in the first place.
In case you think they were climbing what was there, i.e., not enhancing, consider the left column of small print from the back cover of The Book of Dick.
Ever have a route of any sort change dramatically in your overall estimation in the first 10 feet??
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Dec 28, 2007 - 11:15pm PT
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Ahhh, mimisoft spews again, having "learned" nothing (no surprise) in the ensuing years of discussion. Perhaps mimisoft can produce enough pop-up messages on it's master's screen to convince him to gear up, sack up, and actually get ten feet (or more) off the ground on the route. After all, from what the mimisoft program continues to assert (in typical slanderous fashion), the enhancements are obvious from the ground. Soooo, anybody with any doubts can simply hike to the base and see the truth.
I can't imagine what questions remain unanswered, except in the "mind" of this obviously badly written, erotic AI program. However, apparently trip reports by both PTPP and Ammon, reporting no visible enhancements, are unable to affect the infinite loops that ceaselessly produce the sole refrain of which this program is capable. Sigh... and people tell us to "get over it." It is to laugh.
[edit] Oh, btw, as I have said before, I did not write the back cover, nor did I have any control over what the staff writers put there. Anybody with any publishing experience knows that authors are at the mercy of the marketing people when it comes to such things. Hopefully this point can interrupt at least one of mimisoft's infinite loops. Anybody attempting to derive anything of substance from a back cover is at least ignorant. Steve, can you upgrade the program to correct some of its most ignorant failings? Doing so would at least make "dialog" with it more interesting. The loops are getting pretty boring. Thank you in advance.
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Mimi
climber
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Dec 28, 2007 - 11:38pm PT
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Well hello, BwanaDick. Somehow I knew you'd come calling. And to send a student to bump the wrong thread at that. So please explain in your own words how your whole enterprise changed in 10 feet of climbing as you stated in your own remarkably clear words?
You refuse to come clean on the drilling other than your hilarious 12-point font, 8-10 hook hole BwanaDimple description when pressed. Just for the sake of clarity, out of the 151 hooks, all but 5 of which were Leeper narrows, how many did not involve enhancement or drilling in any way with hammer, pick, chisel, or drill?
Bwana Edit: So, does that mean that the whole rest of the book is similarly dismissed by you? Pretty pathetic to write a book and not have the power to control what's in it. We know, it's not even you on the front cover either. Please answer the question on the extent of the enhancements. Still 8-10 for the entire variation?
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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Dec 28, 2007 - 11:47pm PT
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I'm beginning to sense Mimi wants some dick, but is conflicted.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Dec 28, 2007 - 11:48pm PT
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Steve, you have GOT to fix this program! It's hilariously bad. Honestly, I can barely type for the laughter. ROFL!!!
"In my own words???" I thought I just explained that. FIX it, Steve. Please, FIX it. I simply can't waste any more time with it until you give it the ability to integrate already supplied information into its algorithms. THAT'S what AI is supposed to do. This isn't even "I" much less "AI!"
I guess for now all I can do is laugh and wait.
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Mimi
climber
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Dec 28, 2007 - 11:52pm PT
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Ah, so the editor(s) realized your incompetence on their own. I find it hard to believe that you didn't supply your emperial approval for the text being a philosopher king and all.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Dec 28, 2007 - 11:54pm PT
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Keep it coming. Each post is funnier than the previous one.
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Mimi
climber
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Dec 28, 2007 - 11:59pm PT
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You can count on it. I've always had a problem with revisionists. And the fools that believe them.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Dec 29, 2007 - 12:06am PT
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er, not to interrupt this love fest, but the vitriol thread is a couple pages back and needs a bump. can we stick to ethical dicussions of practice and precedent on the WOS threads?
gracias amigos,
M
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Mimi
climber
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Dec 29, 2007 - 12:10am PT
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That discussion begins with how many times did you whack, chisel, or drill in the midst of your carefully and lovingly tabulated 151 hook placements.
This would be an excellent place to begin. Thanks Munge for the prompting.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Dec 29, 2007 - 12:26am PT
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I'm puzzled. "Revisionists?" I don't get it. Who has done the revising over time?
First the route was a "bolt ladder," and the claim was "a thousand bolts to Horse Chute." However, from the ground it quickly became apparent that the route could not be called a "bolt ladder," since there were obviously more rivets than bolts.
Then it was a "rivet ladder," and that was the charge that stuck for decades despite our constant denials and despite the fact that from the ground the route is obviously not a rivet ladder.
Yet, that flagrantly ridiculous charge stuck throughout most of the WoS threads, as anybody can verify. Only when that claim proved unsustainable in the face of too many first-hand accounts to the contrary did the real revisionists try to make it appear that they had actually been opposed to "enhancements" all along, despite the fact that we denied doing that as well.
Let's be clear on the sequence here. The "damage" even our critics attempt to hold us accountable for keeps getting reduced and reduced, until now all they can dicker about is the exact number of supposed "enhancements" we actually created.
We have forthrightly admitted to knocking a crystal of rock off of an otherwise horizontal micro-flake on a few occasions, with the number being unclear after 25 years, although not more than about 15 times on the entire route. And, we have stated that we do not consider these occasions to be "enhancements" in the sense that the term is always used, because EVERY time we drilled straight into the rock to create a hole we counted that as a hole rather than an "enhancement."
We have consistently stated that the few crystals we knocked off of otherwise horizontal micro-flakes resulted in hook placements that could not be distinguished from natural flakes because (and I repeat) we did no straight-in drilling that would result in a pit or "dimple" of any kind, as one sees in traditional "enhanced" hooking. Our statements to this effect have been repeatedly verified by both PTPP and Ammon (and Rob Slater, btw). So I continue to say the same thing we have always said: there are no "enhancements" in the traditional sense of that word, and the very few times we chipped a protruding crystal from a micro-flake, the result was a hookable EDGE (not pit or dimple) that cannot be distinguished from a natural edge.
If mimisoft insists on an exact number of times that the drill touched a hooking edge, as we have repeatedly and consistently stated, after all these years that is impossible to produce. But, as we have also constantly said, that number is a small number, like less than 10% of the total hook placements.
Despite the consistent clarity that my many posts, including this one, have shed on the subject, only mimisoft persists in its own "revisionist" slanders that simply repetitively deny (in the face of ALL the evidence) that we are telling the truth.
I think it's time for the few remaining rabid critics to see for themselves what is really there. It's cheap and easy to criticize and pontificate from the comfort of one's chair (or security of one's microchips, as is the case with mimisoft). Far better to bring a camera along and climb the "pile." Bill Russell famously asserted, "My grandma could do that POS in an afternoon." So, I continue to challenge: "Then you should have no trouble romping up the POS even faster." Take pictures as you do, and have a few unbiased people along to verify your "work" so that no further "revising" continues.
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Mimi
climber
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Dec 29, 2007 - 12:34am PT
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Mark Smith states above, "I have to confess that for all the brew-ha-ha that's come of our modifications I wish we could have found a way to be forthright and at the same time let people assume that there were no modifications since there are none to be found at this point in time. I will say that having to do over I wonder if we could have accomplished the same end by grinding the tip our hook back and forth and/or banging the top of the hook with a biner. I think that would have been better accepted."
Bwana, do you have any regrets about how you did the route? And after all that's been written and said, do you really expect many of us to believe you?
How about WOC and ROF? People heard lots of tapping there too. 10-15% enhancement on those routes?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Dec 29, 2007 - 12:57am PT
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mimisoft, I wonder what it will take for the data to get into your algorithms. The tide has turned, and now most people DO believe us. They believe us not only because we have been so obviously forthright and honest in our discussions, but also because other first-hand accounts have verified what we have said all along. There are very few "thinkers" left as dense as you and as unable to grasp the simple and obvious facts.
Regarding regrets, I would say that "regret" is too strong a word. To do over again, like Mark says, I would simply have come up with some other way besides hammer and drill tip to accomplish the few crystal-removals we did, and then I would have said nothing about it, since these would not count as "enhancements" by any estimation. A few have effectively turned this issue into a red herring and created a tempest in a teapot about an aspect of the ascent that is truly insignificant.
However, one good aspect of this red herring is that the very fact that the few have fixated on this point is itself overwhelming evidence in favor of how little they have left to cling to in their insane efforts to vindicate their decades of slander in the face of the truth. The route is, very simply, NOTHING like what our critics have endlessly asserted and written over the decades, and that fact is now undeniable. So, "regret" is too strong a word, because the contrast between the facts and the slanders stands in sharper relief due to the "enhancements" debate.
Regarding WoC and RoF, mimisoft makes it sound like there's some dark secret there to be revealed. But the dark mysteries are only in mimisoft's convoluted algorithms. We have repeatedly stated that our style on those routes was consistent with the style on many other El Cap routes, including highly respected ones: namely, we DID drill straight-in holes and dimples to enhance hook placements. We have never shied away from "admitting" that fact, and I don't regret a single one of those enhancements. That was the style we intentionally employed on those routes, and, as we have said, there is no comparison between the style of those routes and that of WoS.
Mimisoft continues to try to obscure that which is clear. Not only DO I expect REASONABLE people to believe us in what we say, the beauty of the situation as it now stands is that people don't have to believe only US; they can also believe PTPP (who was a former critic, remember?) and Ammon.
Steve, again, please figure out a way to get some of the actual data into mimisoft's algorithms. I won't respond any more to the same old questions and slanders. The last few posts have clearly summarized the many hundreds of posts of discussions over the years, and I leave it now for reasonable people to see the clear truth.
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Mimi
climber
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Dec 29, 2007 - 01:06am PT
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Out of curiosity, why did you enhance so freely on the latter two routes and not on WOS?
By the time you left the ground on WOS, how much hooking on lead had either of you done before establishing the hardest aid pitch in the world 'conservatively rated A5' when A5+ did not yet exist? You've avoided a similar question in the past.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Dec 29, 2007 - 01:21am PT
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Deleted cruel picture of Mimi.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Dec 29, 2007 - 01:59am PT
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Wow, Mimi - you truly are a remarkably bitter woman. I am so sorry for you, you must have really been hurt in the past. Your posts drip with venom so much of the time - do you have any kindness in your heart? Do you even have a heart? I think you do, I just wish you would show it more.
Why do you persecute Mark and Richard so? What have they ever done to hurt you? I don't get it.
Mimi, how can you say that Mark and Richard have been imprecise in describing their "enhancements" to the route? They have described in excruciatingly precise detail what they did and how often. To say that they didn't is ludicrous - can you knott read?
At first, I thought Mark and Richard were a couple of wankers who liked to rant. But their posts were consistent, and had the ring of truth. To me, they seemed credible enough I was willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. So I went to have a look myself. I've had a good look at the first two [crux] pitches - I say "look" because they were too hard for me to climb - and they are hard, way hard. I was specifically looking for enhancements,and could find none. What I found was a really hard couple of pitches where you were certain to take long lobs, skidding down the slab and hitting ledges and wrecking your ankles and everything else, way way way too sick for me.
Most significantly, everything I found was consistent with what Mark and Richard had written, and their credibility was more or less intact. I agree with you, however, that their later enhancements of other routes reflects badly on them, but they have admitted this is so, too.
I heard Bill tried and failed on the first pitch, too, and he's a damn good climber.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Dec 29, 2007 - 04:57am PT
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re:
"We have consistently stated that the few crystals we knocked off of otherwise horizontal micro-flakes resulted in hook placements that could not be distinguished from natural flakes because (and I repeat) we did no straight-in drilling that would result in a pit or "dimple" of any kind, as one sees in traditional "enhanced" hooking. Our statements to this effect have been repeatedly verified by both PTPP and Ammon (and Rob Slater, btw). So I continue to say the same thing we have always said: there are no "enhancements" in the traditional sense of that word, and the very few times we chipped a protruding crystal from a micro-flake, the result was a hookable EDGE (not pit or dimple) that cannot be distinguished from a natural edge."
i don't have a dog in this figet (i.e. i could give a rats ass when it's all said and done), but to be clear, the argument you make above is one that basically condones ANY enhancement, if don in such a fashion that a later cimber cannot identify it as such.
simply put, i do not think we ought to accept that principle.
i really don't see why this debate needs to continue.
some can say that the fact the route has not been repeated validates it as a futuristic visionary masterpiece, while others can say that it indicates that the route is uninspiring/ contrived/ forced, or whatever else.
like it or not, the one lesson that cannot be ignored is that when you ignore the apparent concencus, beware, it may haunt you for the next 20+ years...
(now back to your regularly scheduled mudslinging, already in progress)
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 29, 2007 - 09:14am PT
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Mimi, so exactly how many times do these guys have to repeat themselves verbatim in describing their 'enhancements' or their statements re-quoted and re-linked? Look, you can call them liars or you can disagree with what they did, but it's getting way past the point of simply asking the same droning question of what they did again and again when they have answered it as clearly and succinctly as even the most erudite Valley regular. And just how much clearer does an evaluation of the line get than this:
Ammon: "From what I have seen, the climbing is very challenging, BUT, it is very boring as well (to me). It took me a couple of hours to figure out where to go on the second pitch. I was standing in my aiders for twenty-five minutes trying to figure out what to do. To me, that is boring. From what I did see on the first two pitches was: It is NOT a bolt ladder like I previously thought. They used every possible features to climb the slab. No lack of balls, either. I took some pretty good rides and was impressed with how far they made their run-outs."
Yours was the first post after this one of Ammon's and all you did was slam PTPP with regard to Ammon questioning his TR'ing on the line - all without a shred of acknowledgement of what Ammon actually said about the line itself. Can you not accept Ammon's words on the matter? And if not, why not?
And as stated by others above - with the exception of Ammon's comments, it's all talk until someone completes a second go of the line. And while you can certainly claim no one should climb the slab, or you can claim like Werner that it's uninspiring as an aid line, or like Ammon that it's not your 'thing' - but none of those positions in any way negate the reality of it being a hard aid line that's never seen a second ascent. And in that regard I believe there's still a trove of alcholic treasure up for grabs to anyone who conjures the interest and manages to do it - at the very least a case of Oregon microbrew and another of Pinot Noir is still on the table.
But, then maybe that will be you're biggest contribution - endless bitching that eventually gets someone serious enough about the route to do a second of it.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Dec 29, 2007 - 10:48am PT
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"i really don't see why this debate needs to continue."
Concur. What do you say we "agree to disagree" and leave it at that?
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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Dec 29, 2007 - 11:03am PT
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Second on Pete's concur.
"Dwell not on the past. Use it to illustrate a point, then leave it behind."--Eileen Caddy
The points have all been illustrated.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Dec 29, 2007 - 11:21am PT
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Correct, Deuce. Doesn't the definition of "aid" climbing ALWAYS include: ascending a rock by ARTIFICIAL means ?
Maybe the definitions need to change to fit each aid climber's own PERSONAL views--yeah, a subjective definition, that's what we need. Give me a break.
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Mimi
climber
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Dec 29, 2007 - 12:41pm PT
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Matt pretty much summed it up with regard to the 'anything goes mentality.' As long as these guys and their submen continue to get on here spraying, I will post up and remind people that these guys really stunk up the place. These guys were identified as unskilled boobs when they made themselves known in Camp 4 that spring.
Joe, with your appreciation of old-school ethics and style, it's dissappointing that you'd defend these guys and what they did. You can refer to it as droning on and on but as I recall the few answers they've provided over the last couple years have changed. They're very adept at blathering their way around any question that actually makes them look bad.
I guess no one wants to acknowledge that the information taken directly from their book exposes how utterly incompetent they were when they began the route. Reading their posts of spun blather 20+ years later is a joke. And once again, technical difficulty doesn't necessarily eclipse other consideratons when establishing the worth of a route and the quality of effort put in by the FA party. These guys have been willing to judge other climbers in comparison to themselves but sure don't like it when they're called out.
Of course we can agree to disagree, but don't expect everyone to roll over and let these guys whitewash the truth.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Dec 29, 2007 - 12:45pm PT
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"These guys were identified as unskilled boobs"
But since then they have been identified as skilled aid climbers, more skilled then you. You are the boob here.
Deleted cruel picture.
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Lost Arrow
Trad climber
The North Ridge of the San Fernando
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Dec 29, 2007 - 12:56pm PT
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Is it not possible after the drill and chip fest they went back and fixed the rock to make it appear harder?
Did the NPS save the ropes that had sh#t on them possibly enabling DNA testing that did not exist in 1975?
Lost
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Dec 29, 2007 - 04:05pm PT
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Welcome back, Crowley!
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Dec 29, 2007 - 04:21pm PT
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I don't know Lois.
Imelda probably had more shoes total, but I'm pretty sure Mimi has more CLIMBING shoes than Imelda.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Dec 29, 2007 - 05:33pm PT
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"These guys were identified as unskilled boobs..."
For unskilled boobs, they sure as heck put up a damn hard route, that nobody has yet been able to repeat!
I think it was very sporting of them to do it in a ground-up push without fixing ropes. They might be unskilled boobs, but they sure have my respect and admiration. I am proud to be one of their Submen. [Do they have any others??]
Mimi - can you please explain to me how Mark and Richard have [allegedly] whitewashed the truth? I would appreciate it, thanks. To my observation, when it comes to honesty, Mark and Richard have possibly even been "too honest"! How many climbers would 'fess up in such precise detail the exact way they modified the rock, when such modifications are not in any way visible on the first two pitches? If they were trying to whitewash the truth, would they not simply remain silent about this, since nobody can see the enhancements anyway?
Incidentally, I apologize for my unkind personal remarks above, they were unnecessary.
Oh frig, I just reread the quote. They were identified as unskilled boobs... Hey Hoser, put me down for the five bucks, eh?
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Dec 29, 2007 - 05:57pm PT
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Holy hijack, Batman! Didn't H. Knott mean that Lost Arrow = Crowley? That's what I assumed he meant.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 29, 2007 - 06:30pm PT
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Mimi: "Of course we can agree to disagree, but don't expect everyone to roll over and let these guys whitewash the truth."
More of the same, Mimi. The "truth", at least the only truth that matters, is still there written in the stone waiting for anyone who cares enough to go read it firsthand. Everything else is about other delicate cultural sensibilities which have little or nothing to do with climbers and steel on stone.
Part of my "appreciation for old school ethics and style" was an attempt to put up a new route whenever we hit a new area. We didn't check in with the locals, ask for beta, consult guide books - we just showed up, eyeballed stone and went for whatever caught our eye as best we could. I consider such behaviour, regardless of the epics that can ensue, to be the very essence of old school style.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Dec 29, 2007 - 07:40pm PT
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You boys (rcmp & HK) get a room and leave us out of it.
I am not sure what Mimi's argument against these guys is, beyond not liking them; maybe she will fill us in?
Mimi and I, and a host of others here, were there, during the WOS operation. It Did look truly weird then, I'm glad for all this discourse; even though it does get recursive, stuff comes out. It will be interesting to hear what the SA party says, as it has been fascinating to hear from those that attempted it.
In the semi long term, it doesn't look like this led to large scale slab/grid-bolting by n00bs, or other catastrophies once feared.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Dec 29, 2007 - 08:09pm PT
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LEB, the logical conclusion is not as you say. You can't get the analogy you need between (let's call it) "backpacking" and big wall climbing.
There is nothing about the activity of backpacking that demands by its very nature that one destroy trees and litter. However, big wall climbing, by its very nature, demands some measure of "rock destruction." The inherently necessary nature of the "destruction" in the two activities is what the needed analogy hinges on. Even placing a cam and wiggling it back and forth to "seat" it among some crumbly crystals is "rock destruction," which is to say that "rock destruction" happens at at least a microscopic level due to the very nature of climbing. Rock climbing demands by its very nature SOME amount of rock destruction, while by its very nature backpacking does NOT demand woodcutting and littering.
To sharpen the point, your analogy breaks down at the very level you most need it to hold up: the only way you can keep the analogy to hold up is for you to admit that the "destruction" involved in backpacking is also a matter of scale that is inherent in the very act of backpacking: walking itself causes damage, etc. But to get the analogy to hold up in this way eliminates its value to your argument.
If the SCALE of destruction is the issue in both activities, then it certainly does NOT follow that because people backpack in the most environmentally-friendly way possible, that just puts them on the slippery slope toward the woodcutters of yore! By the same token, the microscopic amounts of rock that Mark and I "destroyed" on WoS does NOT put one on the slippery slope toward wild hammer-flailing at every bit of rock within reach!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Dec 29, 2007 - 08:42pm PT
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LEB, I agree with you that conservation really matters, and it is only a long history of climbing in Yosemite that has worked in our favor as climbers.
I don't think I missed the point of your analogy. I just don't agree that your analogy MAKES the point of conservation that you say. My response is that "conservation" in the sense your analogy needs is inherently impossible in climbing. Thus, "being concerned about conservation" at the level that mimisoft appears to be is not sustained by your analogy.
Because rock "destruction" is unavoidable in the process of climbing, the entire issue here IS a matter of scale. On the following thread, this issue is taken up, and we await mimisoft's response:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=236000&tn=60#msg508043
I find the discussion of scale worthwhile in its own right, and it is refreshing to at least be talking about facts rather than slanders and speculations. My only point regarding WoS in this context is that the total amount of rock "destruction" we engaged in pales by comparison to the amount of rock "destruction" caused by merely "seating" a single cam or placing and removing a single piton.
Here I merely remind mimisoft of the history: first the route was a bolt ladder, then the route was a rivet ladder, then the route was "heavily drilled," then the route was "enhanced," then the route was (and this is the actual fact of the matter) unnoticeably "enhanced" on a few flakes (that have probably long since dropped off due to natural erosion), and finally the "debate" comes down to whether or not you happen to find it appealing/enjoyable/interesting to climb a route that requires you to scrutinize the rock at an almost microscopic level to make upward progress. I realize that such scrutiny is not everybody's cup of tea, but that matter of preference is nothing worth debating about.
The only remaining debate should be carried forward on the previously mentioned thread, since until mimisoft rises to that challenge, there is really nothing else to talk about.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 29, 2007 - 08:46pm PT
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LEB, take my word for it - in this discussion you're completely out of your element and league relative to the requisite domain expertise necessary to comment meaningfully on the technical aspects of the discussion. You should either sit this one out or consider restricting your comments to the personality conflicts as your attempts to comment on the technical merits are basically no where in the vacinity of a target despite your good intentions. In short, if you were placed on the route with your face three feet from the rock in front of one of the 'enhancements' in question you likely wouldn't be able to discern any of them.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Dec 29, 2007 - 08:59pm PT
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HJE wrote
"Part of my "appreciation for old school ethics and style" was an attempt to put up a new route whenever we hit a new area. We didn't check in with the locals, ask for beta, consult guide books - we just showed up, eyeballed stone and went for whatever caught our eye as best we could. I consider such behaviour, regardless of the epics that can ensue, to be the very essence of old school style."
This is hard to argue with, but a similar argument is going on over Laurel Knob in NC these days, with equal vigor and venom.
Lois, you have stepped into one of the steaming cowpies of climbing here. Back up, scrape off you shoe, hold your nose, and go another way, haha!
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Dec 29, 2007 - 09:33pm PT
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"Steaming" is right. I don't think there is a way to really describe this event and it's nuances to a non-climber in post-space.
I don't think it really affected non climbers, except for providing a new place to point binoculars for six weeks, 25 yrs ago.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Dec 29, 2007 - 09:41pm PT
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loisification of a WoS thread?
jesus chingando christo!
now i really have seen it all....
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yo
climber
The Eye of the Snail
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Dec 29, 2007 - 09:45pm PT
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hahaha yeah
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cintune
climber
Penn's Woods
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Dec 29, 2007 - 10:12pm PT
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Lost Arrow
Trad climber
The North Ridge of the San Fernando
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Dec 29, 2007 - 10:16pm PT
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If anyone can make sense out of the nightmare and travesty that was Wings of Steel it is Lois. She is in the perfect position to determine who the boobs are.
Juan
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 29, 2007 - 10:27pm PT
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Rules on aid climbing? LOL
They make em up as they go. Remember the the copperhead Bridwell placed on Half Dome on a blank wall, hahaha.
Blew Klaus's mind while he watched from below ......
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 29, 2007 - 11:26pm PT
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From Living in Yosemite almost 30 years, it's my experience that insider's get treated differently than outsiders. There may actually be some merit in that, but it's true that it's possible to get a raw deal as an outsider.
Seems crazy to me that folks who don't raise an eyebrow about cleaning out a head placement or garden a crack for nailing, or even a bathook or trenched head, would get uptight about minor improvement to a hook placement.
If any route gets many ascents, it seems like a matter of time before hook placements get enhanced.
What's the real beef? Ain't none. Valley elitists made a mistake using double standards. Human Nature at work.
Peace
Karl
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Dec 29, 2007 - 11:37pm PT
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Loisification of Wings of Steel! Oh the ignominy!
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Dec 29, 2007 - 11:44pm PT
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Pissing and pooping as a means of settling disputes is phylogenically inappropriate in the context of human conflict. It IS the method of choice for my cats when settling disputes in the laundry room BUT there is/was probably more effective ways working through issues involved in this particular controversy
Given that the "phylogenically appropriate" way of settling human conflict is mass murder (whether by stone club or AK-47 or Atomic Bomb), you're probably right that pissing and pooping is inappropriate.
D
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 30, 2007 - 12:19am PT
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Lois, you keep driving further from the target and the topic's relavancy with each succeeding post. Again, I know you have good intentions, but really, you should real desist at this point. Again, the 'chipping' in question you likely wouldn't be able to discern right in front of your face - even with a magnifying glass. For this [climbing] outsider, once the facts were verified by experienced climbers of good standing in the community, my view is the dispute is far more a conflict of culture and style than ethics and any inordinate physical damage of any kind.
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Lost Arrow
Trad climber
The North Ridge of the San Fernando
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Dec 30, 2007 - 12:28am PT
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Yosemite - Valley of the Cats!
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Dec 30, 2007 - 01:38am PT
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I want that T-shirt in cintune's post.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Dec 30, 2007 - 08:22am PT
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I was there. The hooking was desperate, the climbing bold and runout. Fifty-foot falls are a certainty, many of them. I saw no chipping or enhancements with my naked eye, even though I was looking for them. I did not use a magnifying glass. My vision is not as good as it used to be, and I am almost at the point where I'm thinking I might need reading glasses.
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Lost Arrow
Trad climber
The North Ridge of the San Fernando
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Dec 30, 2007 - 12:33pm PT
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Why are u folks listening to a Pete, that cat lives in Canada.
Why are we letting him rewrite Yosemite History!
Juan
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Dec 30, 2007 - 12:42pm PT
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Like meeow, eh?
Imagine exposing a "truth" that has existed in the minds of Yosemite climbers for a quarter-century, only to now realize it is not what everyone thought.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Dec 30, 2007 - 01:03pm PT
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dood-
someone up thread stole your log-in and said they were through w/ th debate, kinda makes yo look a we bit silly to then keep debating, IMHO
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MSmith
Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 30, 2007 - 01:22pm PT
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When someone refers to you directly, responding is expected regardless of whether you're just reading rather than advancing the debate.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Dec 30, 2007 - 01:24pm PT
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-or one can simply ignore obvious trolling...
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MSmith
Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 30, 2007 - 01:27pm PT
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True
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MSmith
Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 30, 2007 - 02:16pm PT
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"These ... jackasses have, for the past 25 years included me in their slander about shitting on their ropes"
Meaty, if you are referring to me, that assertion isn't true. I think that I speak for Richard also.
Cheers,
Mark
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Mimi
climber
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Dec 30, 2007 - 02:29pm PT
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I know it's a drag to be falsely accused about most things, Meaty, but you should be honored to be included in that elite group.
MSmith, since you feel an obligation to respond to questions, how about these unrequieted gems:
1. How many hook placements had you ever stood on while on lead before leaving the ground on WOS?
2. Had you ever led a consensus-rated pitch harder than A2 and longer than a 100 feet prior to WOS?
3. Why do you guys consider the lefthand (Yaniro) variation leading up to belay 2 to be 'bogus'?
4. When you guys replaced the chopped anchors on the bottom of WOS after the poohfest, did either of you damage placements or choose to leave out any of the metalic anchors that were pulled?
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MSmith
Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 30, 2007 - 03:25pm PT
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Mimi,
I got an email recently from a non-climbing friend who came across SuperTopo expecting to find a close-knit community. No shock that that’s not what he found. His email comment to me was, “It is good to see that across the internet asininity pervades each community, [that] there are constants in the universe.”
The last time I addressed you, as I recall, I told you that I don’t dialog with people who insist to call my friend(s) by slang terms for genitalia. That still stands. Should you decide to communicate as a decent human with Richard and I, then I’ll be happy to talk, assuming that you are willing and able to meaningfully answer our questions which have been outstanding for more than a year now on More “peace and love” from Mimi:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=236000
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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Dec 30, 2007 - 03:26pm PT
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It is so obvious bogus judgements were made when WoS went up. Based on them being outsiders, applying double standards, mob menality, jealousy, a new type of line (that granted is not for everyone) etc.
Now some are so deeply invested in maintaining their anger and derision against the WoS guys, they keep grasping at straws to come up with stuff to hold against them. The supposed transgressions get less and less important, as the earlier ones are proved false.
The WoS guys were given a bum rap. No one inspected the climbing prior to condeming it, that's pretty much all you need to know to realize all the negativity is based on BS.
They got tons of crap from almost all corners and didn't give up. That's ballsy. They dug in their heels and repsonded to the cristisism as best they could, and are still doing it.
Now instead of recognizing that, certain folks are now looking at their motivations, experience, etc. to get anything that will help them maintain their belief that they were right and the Wos guys were wrong, very sad really.
They need to get some guts and some pride and looks at things objectively. Maybe they don't like the style of the climb, that's perfectly acceptable, but to disparage them with lies and think that you have ANY more right to climb in the Valley because you were a "local" (in a public park) is so very weak.
I, like many others, user to think the route was poor, since I had been told all the lies and BS, these threads helped me see the truth, and gain a lot of respect for Richard and Mark.
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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Dec 30, 2007 - 03:29pm PT
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That being said, there are some people that no matter how much evidence is presented to them will continue to hold onto their false beliefs. You have to cut your losses at some point.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Dec 30, 2007 - 03:41pm PT
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That being said, there are some people that no matter how much evidence is presented to them will continue to hold onto their false beliefs. You have to cut your losses at some point.
Hmmm - this sounds distinctly familiar, does it knott?
(thank God I never "cut my losses")
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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Dec 30, 2007 - 03:42pm PT
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One more point, Richard and Mark could have made things much easier on themselves and the community by repeating some more hard routes and establishing a reputation before doing an FA. Personally I don't think they were 'required' to, but in hindsight it would have been a much better way approach a spirited and highly defensive community.
If the community wasn't so protective climbing would not be what it is today as the traditional ethic needs constant defense. The line between protecting the resource and going overboard is inherently fuzzy.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 30, 2007 - 03:42pm PT
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Mark- just answer the simple questions that you two have so studiously avoided. I have read all of you respective posts going all the way back.
Leaning on civility here is just another avoidance device. But you gents are slipperier than a couple of eels in 30 weight oil with regard to your skill and competence before undertaking WOS.
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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Dec 30, 2007 - 03:45pm PT
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HK, Yeah I guess 10,000 posts later we should all realize things aren't moving much at this point.
Or are you referring to something else?
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Dec 30, 2007 - 03:46pm PT
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I just edited (added to) my one-line post above...
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Dec 30, 2007 - 04:12pm PT
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The Fet,
That was the best summation of the whole thing I have ever read. Well done.
Steve,
Why does it matter what they climbed beforehand? I can tell you that from what I have observed, it's damn hard, well done, scary, dangerous, and sick. Somehow Mark and Richard used the negative energy of the locals, and channelled it into some sort of synergy they might otherwise not been able to achieve, cuz their route is unbelievable [to me]. I've climbed 33 routes on El Cap, including at least one of yours, and nothing I've seen comes close to the severity of WoS.
Incidentally, there are surely some of yours I wouldn't dare try, either!
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 30, 2007 - 04:25pm PT
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Pete- did you actually do all the moves while on top-rope or were you unable to figure it out?
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Dec 30, 2007 - 04:53pm PT
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Gee, I guess I really should publish my mini-trip report, shouldn't I. I wrote a few emails and I'll copy and paste 'em in here.
I was able to do almost all of the hook moves on toprope - it took me five hours! - but as I recall, there were two or three I simply couldn't figure out, or get to work for me. I felt scared and insecure, most of my fear coming from the fact that I simply couldn't imagine actually leading the bloody thing. Steve, the moves are INSANE. Walk along the base of the slab with some little Leeper hooks and your aiders, and try traversing the base of the wall. You'll see the kind of sick stuff they used!
So you know how a lot of the time, even pitches that are A4 or harder can sometimes, if not often, be reasonable exercises? You figure if you take your time, and really get your pro good and do lots of bounce tests and use lots of screamers, if you blow it and fall you probably really won't go that far, or get hurt? Well, that just ain't so on WoS. You're going to fall for sure, and on the first pitch there are definitely plenty of ankle-breaker ledges to hit. That is a concern with me, having busted my ankle on the Ranch a few years ago.
I went back to the Ranch with Kate, figured out what I did wrong, and climbed the pitch - it seemed reasonable. I did, however, take the precaution of padding the ledge I hit the time before with sleeping pads and clothes and ledge flies and soft stuff! I have some funny pictures.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Dec 30, 2007 - 05:07pm PT
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re: "Why does it matter what they climbed beforehand?"
why do they need defending?
in particular, right after a climber w/ a certain amount of clout talks about avoidance of his unanswered questions and compares them to slippery eels, why would you come back and ask why HIS questions matter? they obviously matter to him, and there he is posting w/ his real name, so let him ask.
the question he asked was simple enough, was it not?
seriously pedro, your arguments FOR this route are equally valuable to those who argue AGAINST the route, i.e. if the only way through certain sick hooking sections is to occasionally chip on some level that can be rationalized or accepted by some people, than the only climber who will ever repeat it will be one who is willing to repaeat that behavior.
further, you miss the point IMO when you argue that mixing lots of sick hooking into the periodic (albeit spread out) drilled rivets and bolts and enhanced hook placements validates the line as being worthwhile or whatever. as i understand it, all of those holes, along with the total absence of natural protection, are in fact the complaint!
what if it were 5.6 free climbing (w/ no natural protection available) between the rivets and bolts and modified placements? would the climbing community at the time have ben more or less inclined to accept the line in that case?
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Dec 30, 2007 - 05:17pm PT
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Why arent the first ascentionists of the Shield catching all kinds of crap for bringing the headwall into submission? Far more damage done to the headwall on the Shield than any that was done or ever will be on WoS.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 30, 2007 - 05:24pm PT
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Matt- I salute your clarity here.
Pete- how often do you bounce test narrow Logan hooks? Very little uncertainty about which hook to use on this route. Who were you climbing with that day on WOS?
How many hook placements between drilled rivets or bolts at the maximum? I just talked with one of the Poo Crew and he remembers little more than a body length spacing anywhere. Were any of your midpitch hook placements into actual drilled holes that might have held a rivet?
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Dec 30, 2007 - 05:56pm PT
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Poo Crew™...
LOL!!
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Dec 30, 2007 - 06:13pm PT
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"Pete- how often do you bounce test narrow Logan hooks? Very little uncertainty about which hook to use on this route. Who were you climbing with that day on WOS?
How many hook placements between drilled rivets or bolts at the maximum? I just talked with one of the Poo Crew and he remembers little more than a body length spacing anywhere. Were any of your midpitch hook placements into actual drilled holes that might have held a rivet?"
Steve, I really have to repeat, I saw NO ENCHANCEMENTS. Nothing. Certainly no drilled holes, for crying out loud! It's impossible to see any enhancements on the first two pitches. Mark and Richard should have denied chipping micro-crystals, because you can't SEE anything. But these guys are not liars, and they told us all precisely what they did, and everything I observed confirms this. I was climbing with Randy and Tom, and later Richard and Mark came by [see below].
Your mate from the Poo Crew is full of it! Or more precisely, his memory has failed him in his old age. The runouts are LONG, Steve! Forty- and fifty-foot fall potential all over the place. My cheat stick [see below] wasn't long enough to make the final moves between bolts near the top, and it's damn near twenty feet long. So, I dunno - twenty feet of hooking with placements averaging three feet apart? Seven moves or so? Probably more hook moves, because you can't find an edge where you want it usually. You might make a short one- or two-foot hook move, then a desperate top-step.
PETE'S WINGS OF STEEL MINI-TRIP REPORT
[or do I mean, "bollocks of mush?"]
Here are few snippets from emails I've sent. Sorry I never got round to writing something sooner here on McTopo. Randy and Tom can probably tell you lots more, too. Stuff in italics is other people talking.
Hey guys, here's about everything I've ever written. I never really wrote much on McTopo - too embarrassing to be spanked so hard!
"BTW - How hard was WOS, really? I believe its not over-bolted/rivited, I know the hooking is thin...so whats the dealio, if you could share?"
'Thin' doesn't begin to describe the hooking on WOS! Imagine the worst possible edge that you could barely get the smallest hook to sit on. I'm not talking about a talon, because that is too good of an edge. I am talking about a micro-ripple on an 85-degree wall - just laid back enough to make this insanity barely doable - and do it again and again and again. Hook placements so scary you don't even want to get on them on toprope!
So what you need to do is walk along the base of the slab there with your aiders and a couple of those little Leeper hooks, the tiniest ones, and just try hooking. You will quickly see what you are up against. Don't think that it gets any better up higher on the pitch, because it doesn't.
It was impossible for me to commit to these hooks, because I was certain that they would blow off at any minute. I basically cheat-sticked my way up the first pitch with a big long tent pole, because the hook moves were impossible for me to do on lead. There were a few reasonable moves, but most of the hooks were totally unreasonable.
It was too terrifying for me to be leading over these 25-year-old rivets, that are just those concrete things where you have a hollow shaft, and you put a little nail through the middle. I believe the box said they were rated to 485 pounds or something insane? Tom could tell us more. He replaced these old "rivets" with new ones of the same kind, which is what Mark and Richard preferred when we asked them. Greg Barnes will tell you we mostly use 1/4" Rawl buttonheads, which are perhaps four times stronger. Mark and Richard said their rivets were never intended to hold falls - sheesh. How sick is that?
So you have to imagine me there on the first pitch, and you will be laughing your ass off at how lame I was! Remember that this whole fiasco of my failed attempt was prefaced with hundreds of WoS threads on McTopo, me getting tempted by offers of beer, but mostly just my curiosity to see WTF was up, eh?
I should have bloody known better, if Werner was up there offering a 2-4 for the second ascent. He's seen so many people fail over the years, he knew it was a safe offer never to pay!
"What's a 2-4?"
Oh, for .... bloody Merrican. Ask a Hoser, eh?
So here I am standing at the bottom of the first pitch, kinda flexing my muscles and pulling Dr. Piton Superhero Poses, meanwhile my bollocks are shrivelled in terror as I realize I have to freaking go up there and climb it!
So I climb up and right along this ledge, I think I had to replace an old head, and there were a couple ok hook moves and I'm clipped to the first bolt. Then what? Frig, there's nothing here to hook. Tom's belaying. I'm trying this, trying that, nothing will stick. "Bloody 'ell, those wankers Mark and Richard were manic! I can't bloody do this, Tom."
And Tom's like, "we've invested way too much in this. Why don't you grab the Lovetron?"
Now the Lovetron is a legit piece of gear on one route he and I had climbed [sort of], this being Scorched Earth. I had taken the tent pole and got a long hunk of tat, and taped it to the pole, putting clip-in loops every two-three feet up the thing. On Scorched Earth, you hook this edge fifteen feet up, and climb up the tent pole. [Incidentally, I hooked the wrong spot on the edge, and after climbing all the way up the tent pole, when I saw the spot it was on, I nearly puked I was so scared. I whipped another hook on the right spot pretty darn fast.]
So I never took the webbing off the Lovetron.
[Dec. 07: the sling is still on the tent pole, but I have only used it the two times, once on Scorched Earth, and on WoS. I have always found a way to climb routes without cheating, however a few times I have extended my reach using my hammer. So I guess that's cheating. Oh well.]
So after basically cheat-sticking myself to the top of the first pitch, it seemed so stupid to me. I'm like, 'what am I doing up here? I can't do these moves AT ALL. I'm just cheat-sticking my way up the wall! This isn't fun, I'm scared shitless anyway. It's like me trying to lead a 5.13 sport climb, and cheat sticking from bolt to bolt since I was incapable of doing the free moves. Let's get the fvck off this thing, I'm in over my head.'
So I bailed. I didn't have it in me - way way WAAAAAY too sick and scary for me, mate. And it's not like I haven't done any hooking, either! I've soloed eight hard-ish routes over on the right side like IH and NS and ZM and SS and stuff, done the Sea and Jolly Roger and other routes requiring lots of hooks, but with the exception of JR, the WoS hook moves are hugely harder, and consistently so. I remember one truly sick move on JR plus lots of hard ones, but nothing like WoS. Wings is a whole different ballgame, dude.
So Tom replaces the bolts, and also replaces the old rivets with new rivets of the same kind. NOT Rawl 1/4" buttonheads, that Greg Barnes writes on the other posts are good for 2000 lb. I didn't know that, incidentally. Maybe on Welcome to Wyoming I should have put in 5/16" x 3/4" machine bolts instead? Is the pitch now "easier" because of the buttonheads? It's probably safer, isn't it? Still, you could most assuredly die with that scary rope-cutting edge.
Anyway, so now Tom has replaced the rivets and bolts on the first pitch. He also did the second pitch because Ammon's ropes were up, and Gabe told Tom we could use 'em. Ammon climbed the easier start, incidentally, but don't think for a moment it's easy. He also skipped the crux of the route according to Mark and Richard, which is the start of the legit second pitch - before it is joined by the easier start - where Mark I think took about a 40' factor 2 fall and completely trashed a rope. He described to me in great detail how the rope got all stiff and curly as a result of the fall! Yikes!!! It's protected with those shitty rivets, too, not bolts!
Well Mark and Richard are pretty saddened that I've wimped out. And other people are like, C'mon Pete, we're counting on you! The bolts are replaced - give it a go! And I'm like, no way, I'm gonna fall, I'll probably get hurt, and it just ain't no fun. I don't LIKE falling, I like climbing. And I'll be doing more falling than climbing. Forget it.
But Mark and Richard are really encouraging. "C'mon Pete, it's not that hard. C'mon over to the base of the slab, and we'll give you a few hooking tips that we remember."
Now this bit is really funny - I have this distinct picture in my mind of Richard I think it was walking along the base of the slab with his aiders and a couple Leeper hooks, trying to find something to hook on. And I see him go like a hundred yards, and maybe actually stand on a hook like two times! There he is, way the hell down there, trying to find something to hook on! Too funny!
But Mark and Richard are SO encouraging, they made a special trip to Yos, I'm their Great White Hope, or maybe just some dumbass life insurance agent part-time wanker who thinks he can climb their route.
And I'm like, "OK, guys. I'll give it a try. I will try to climb the first pitch on toprope, learn the skill of this insane hooking, put the moves together under toprope, and then after I have cheated by toproping it a bunch of times, I'll pull the toprope, and make the "headpoint" ascent, meaning to lead the route after practising it on toprope. This is what they have sometimes done on the gritstone E9's and E10's in Britain, incidentally. The 'headpoint' ascent!"
One wonders if this was the First Aid Headpoint Ascent Attempt on El Cap? Has anyone else done this? Ammon laughed his ass off at me when I told him my plan!
Now, here's the thing. I have not been to a climbing gym in 5+ years. I never EVER toprope climbs on the rock. My ONLY experience climbing over the last five years has been leading aid pitches on the wall. I don't climb at home in Ontario - all my climbing gear is in Yosemite. I leave Yosemite in the fall, go home, and the next time I touch rock [or even plastic] is back at the base of El Cap the next spring. I am 100% an off-the-couch climber, for to train is to cheat.
Consequently, the toprope doesn't do me any good, at least from a confidence standpoint. So I was toprope soloing with a Grigri. And man was it slow. People got bored watching me, and had disappeared. Christian's right - ivy climbs faster than me. Maybe Tom was up on the second pitch rebolting, Randy wandered off cuz he was bored, and I was alone most of the time.
Now here is the really embarrassing part - I was terrified! I just couldn't "get" the toprope, man. It just didn't seem to help me. I can't do toprope!!! I know this is fvcked up, maybe you get it. I told Ammon later and he sure didn't get it. He thought it was absolutely absurd that I would practise an AID climb on toprope as explained above, and especially tobe scared! He didn't get it, and I can see his point. I'm such a pvssy.
Dude! It took me FIVE FRICKIN' HOURS to aid-hook this thing on toprope. I fell off more than a few times. I was terrified. My body was killing me trying to stay in balance. Mark and Richard described the pain of how their feet went to sleep while drilling bolts and rivets on lead, and that would have been ten times worse than what I was doing! The fear they had to face down is beyond belief. I honestly don't know how the hell they did it, it's just way too sick for me.
There are definitely places on the first pitch where if you fall, you could well break an ankle. I believe either Mark or Richard dislocated their ankle in a fall on the first pitch, but they pressed on. These guys were motivated by their detractors, and to me I think they raised far above themselves to a level never before seen. They were bitchin' beyond belief, I think. Somehow they channeled the negative energy into positive energy.
The locals who shat on their ropes probably achieved precisely what they wanted [K]NOT[T] to achieve - they pissed off Mark and Richard to the point that they became very very determined. And I think that might be what allowed Mark and Richard to pull this off - they were mad as hell, and they were gonna show those wankers, dammit.
On my toprope headpoint attempt, I could do most of the moves, but there were still a few moves where I just couldn't figure out how to do it. Ammon said the hook moves were also very difficult on the second pitch, except he was leading! Ammon told me he took at least three fifty-foot falls on the second pitch, until he worked out the hooking sequence. Falling fifty feet on these pitches isn't a possibility, it's a CERTAINTY. You WILL fall 50' until you figure it out. You will take many long whippers.
Or at least, would-be ascensionists will. That ain't me. I don't like falling. Mark and Richard don't have Wings of Steel, Mark and Richard have Balls of Steel!
I don't want to take whippers, mate. I have probably never fallen more than 35' in my life, believe it or not.
I had no desire whatsoever to continue working the first pitch on toprope until I could lead it. NONE. It would have been cheating to me. Even if I had stuck it out [how many tries - ten tries?] until I could lead it, so fvckin' what? I wasn't prepared to make the investment in time and fear, and I sure as hell wasn't prepared to go up and take 50' falls all the way up the slab, just to bag the second ascent. There is a REASON it took those guys so fvckin' long to climb the thing, and that is because it is fvckin' HARD HARD HARD. They were falling all over the bloody place all the time!
NO THANKS.
I came down, and me and Tom had an awful lot more fun on Cosmos. Man, did we trundle a huge feature... We replaced a few anchor bolts.
Anyway, what I learned from all of this mucking about on Wings of Steel is that everything I observed was 100% consistent with what Mark and Richard had told me, and with what they had written about the route on McTopo.
Part of my reason for trying WoS - besides my curiosity about the difficulty of the climbing - was to see if Mark and Richard were really the villains they were painted to be. I knew from their writing they are truly Men of Passion - and although prone to ranting too much, and often appearing very defensive - a result of being unjustly persecuted for 25 years! - their writing was consistent, both with previous things they had posted, and with each other's writing. So what I mean is that their words had the ring of truth. I look hard for inconsistencies. It's like when you meet a girl off the internet, the first thing you check is to see that she is the same person in the flesh she made herself out to be on line. Girls lie about their age and their weight, and guys lie to say they really want a relationship when all they want is sex. So I wanted to see if Mark and Richard in person were consistent with the persona they presented on line.
In fact, the more they were attacked and libelled here on McTopo, the harder they dug their heels in and stuck to their guns. They had no internet savvy - they didn't know when the hell to shut up. They shot themselves in the foot so many times on McTopo - just when it seemed they were winning the war of words, they just couldn't resist chiming in again.
It's like in sales, when you ask your client to buy, you STFU. Because "he who speaks first, loses." If you make your point and shut up, people will buy. You have to resist the temptation to keep on selling your idea, when the person is ready to buy it. In salesman's parlance, this is called, "talking yourself out of the sale." Mark and Richard are masters at this. But they are both teachers, so they don't know anything about selling or the Real World, they just stand at the front of their class and lecture, and the kids better pay attention and recite back exactly what the prof wants to hear in order to get an A. Bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha!!!
Actually, Mark and Richard must be fabulous profs and very well-loved by their students, because some of their students have come to their defense here in McTopo. I can't think of a single prof in university I would have done that for, and that alone speaks volumes for their character.
OK, so let's go back and examine the question of their credibility. Are they pathetic wankers who bolted their way up the slab, murdering the thing with "a thousand bolts to Horse Chute"? Well, I saw on the wall that this was emphatically not the case.
Or are they lying bastards who try to "whitewash" the truth, as purported by Valley legend [and Legends]? Honestly, it was this second bit that intrigued me the most, because I have a vested interest in this sort of thing.
On the internet, for better or for worse, I have always been me. I have never hidden behind a fake identity - such nameless, faceless and dickless detractors are the epitome of cowardice. I have suffered more than my share of attack, and although some of it was warranted [I have a big mouth sometimes] lots of it wasn't.
Mark and Richard seemed to be taking a huge amount of unjust criticism, from what I could see. So I decided to check them out, not just as climbers, but as men.
So we met, spent several days together talking and trying to climb and stuff. Indeed, Mark Smith and Richard Jensen are Men of Character. You could never find anyone more "solid" in my books. They not only talk the talk, but they walk the walk, too. They are truthful, forthright, honest, devoted, and man, are they passionate! I love a good rant. Fortunately, they are not prone to ranting in person. They are actually pretty ordinary-looking guys, who rose to and achieved an extraordinary feat. I think their detractors are confused by hearsay and lies, and motivated by jealousy, because Richard Jensen and Mark Smith are ETS - Emphatically The Sh|t!
I really like them a lot, and feel priveleged to call them my friends.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Dec 30, 2007 - 06:39pm PT
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Mimi: " MSmith, since you feel an obligation to respond to questions, how about these unrequieted gems:
Mimi, we're waiting for you to answer a few questions yourself over in this thread: http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=236000&tn=0&mr=0
See the fifth post down.
Mark and Richard have been more then reasonable in responding to your many questions and rantings. It is only fair that you answer a few of their questions. Until you answer those questions, Mark and Richard should not respond to any questions from you.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Dec 30, 2007 - 06:45pm PT
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Fet:" It is so obvious bogus judgements were made when WoS went up. Based on them being outsiders, applying double standards, mob menality, jealousy, a new type of line (that granted is not for everyone) etc.
Now some are so deeply invested in maintaining their anger and derision against the WoS guys, they keep grasping at straws to come up with stuff to hold against them. The supposed transgressions get less and less important, as the earlier ones are proved false.
The WoS guys were given a bum rap. No one inspected the climbing prior to condeming it, that's pretty much all you need to know to realize all the negativity is based on BS.
They got tons of crap from almost all corners and didn't give up. That's ballsy. They dug in their heels and repsonded to the cristisism as best they could, and are still doing it.
Now instead of recognizing that, certain folks are now looking at their motivations, experience, etc. to get anything that will help them maintain their belief that they were right and the Wos guys were wrong, very sad really.
They need to get some guts and some pride and looks at things objectively. Maybe they don't like the style of the climb, that's perfectly acceptable, but to disparage them with lies and think that you have ANY more right to climb in the Valley because you were a "local" (in a public park) is so very weak.
I, like many others, user to think the route was poor, since I had been told all the lies and BS, these threads helped me see the truth, and gain a lot of respect for Richard and Mark.
Word! Especially the paragraph in bold.
I can understand why Mark and Richard still have strong feelings over what happened. They were wronged against for 25 years. However, Mimi and a few others are even more hung up over it then others. I wouldn't be surprised if Mimi was one of the shitters. Mimi's posts stink to the high heavens.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 30, 2007 - 06:59pm PT
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So, were Ammon's big peels on the actual WOS route or on the "bogus start?" You also say that he didn't lead the crux section right below the point of connection. Is that accurate and did those guys climb through that area in any way while they were poking around?
I have little doubt that the climbing those guys left behind is spooky, especially equipped with those crappy rivets.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 30, 2007 - 07:07pm PT
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What does Mescadawn have to do with this discussion Graniteclimber?
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Dec 30, 2007 - 07:21pm PT
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Steve,
So far as I am aware [Ammon can tell you better] the bogus start begins to the left, and intersects the second pitch about two rivets and 40' above the first belay. I believe it was put up by Mark and Richard in order to get back up after the chopping/sh|tting episode.
They told me the hardest hooking on the route was the first two rivets of the second pitch, about 40' or so. Those rivets are no closer than 20' apart. They are the same crap rivets. Mark [I think] described his 40' near-factor-2 fall onto the first belay, totally trashing his rope from the impact, leaving the rope in "curls". How sick is that?
I should have mentioned in the trip report that the only "safe" way to lead the beginning of the second legit pitch, which nobody has done, would be to dangle the belayer from the first belay on a long-ass rope of 30' or more, so he could clip the bolt on the belay with a screamer. That way if he whips from close to the second rivet - naturally ripping the first - the fall factor is reduced to a "mere" 1.0 or so. Sheesh - my fingers are getting sweaty just typing it.
Ammon took his whippers higher up on the second pitch, after the point where the bogus start joins the route. You will have to ask him why he chose to climb the bogus start rather than the original. He beat me to it when me and Cybie were up on Dihedral. I could not have got up the thing I don't think without the assistance of his fixed ropes, which dangled from the first belay to the ground. While I was able to cheat stick my way up most of the first pitch, the last few bolts/rivets were so far apart, I couldn't reach 'em. I just grabbed Ammon's rope and jugged. I'm such a pVssy!
I disagree that the crap rivets should have been replaced with new crap, but we respected their wishes.
Steve, if you define "spooky" as "YOUR WORST M*THERF*CKIN' CLIMBING NIGHTMARE", then um, sure - it's spooky.
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Lost Arrow
Trad climber
The North Ridge of the San Fernando
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Dec 30, 2007 - 07:39pm PT
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If Harding had done wings of steel and used dowels the whole way would we be having this discussion?
The people that sh#t on the ropes seem to have some need to justify their actions all these years later.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Dec 30, 2007 - 07:43pm PT
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Steve, since you deign to use Mark's real name, I'll jump at the chance to have as civil of a dialog as might be possible with you.
I find your question about our previous experience to be a complete red herring. I will answer it, but your charge of us being "slippery" is utterly ridiculous. NOBODY in the entire history of climbing has EVER provided the minute detail (ALL of which that can be verified HAS been verified as true) about a climb! For you to call us "slippery" at this point reveals something akin to intentional insanity on your part. However, a few more reasonable people also seem to want to know that answer, so I will answer THEM without giving ANY credence to your charge.
BTW, if anybody is being slippery, it is mimisoft that has for years refused to answer the simple challenge arising from ITS own line of questioning. Seems that when things turn back around, mimisoft is strangely silent, despite years of prodding on the subject.
Now, before I answer the experience question, let me preface it by saying that if your best response is to start calling me a liar, then I guarantee you will hear no more of my responses to your questions, and that will not be a function of "slipperiness;" it will be a function of finally despairing of ever finding a speck of common ground between us. I'm almost there already, but I'll give this one more shot.
I had been an avid climber for 12 years prior to WoS. During those years I climbed primarily in Southern California. I got to be a fairly respectable free climber, given the era of EBs. I won't tout my skills beyond to say that I was free-soloing 5.10c slabs in EBs and could redpoint pretty much any 5.11 in SoCal. As better shoes came along I could bag some 5.12s.
However, I found aid climbing much more interesting. You won't recognize any of the SoCal aid climbs, and none of them will impress you (which is beside the point). But I spent many years developing my abilities. The Riverside Quarry is a 200-foot high band of overhanging, blasted granite, and there I learned to feel comfortable on loose rock the likes of which most people will never see in their lives. Almost entire ROUTES we climbed there have since fallen off. Mark and I also did climbs there that were far, far harder and more dangerous than anything we found on fifth ascent of the Sea of Dreams.
I met Mark just as the Quarry was starting to get attention from a handful of climbers that realized its aid potential. Mark can provide any details he cares to, but I can say that Mark was the best and most experienced climber I had climbed with at the Quarry. He had also been aid climbing for years before he met me, and we quickly formed a close bond based upon our love of aid climbing.
We were naturally competitive in a good way, constantly goading each other into nailing a looser block on some more ridiculous pitch on some more dangerous Quarry climb. At the Quarry we really honed our abilities utilizing all sorts of placements, including many, many hooks. The question was asked about how many hooks we had stood on on lead, and I can say that the number was countless. And, these hooks were generally used facing far worse falls on far more dangerous climbs than any pitch of the Sea. Just because you might disdain the Quarry does not mean that it does not have some of the hardest aid climbing anywhere. In short, both Mark and I learned during our Quarry years to face the worst and keep pushing.
I should mention that during the years prior to meeting Mark I did manage to get to Yosemite now and then (I was very, very poor), and I did solo the South Face route of WC in a couple of days.
Another thing we used to do while training for WoS was to find steep slab routes and try to lead them using hooks instead of free climbing. That was how we learned how to top-loop micro-flake hooks without causing the hook to rotate and skit sideways.
I will say, however, that the hooking on WoS was a new order of hooking compared to anything we (or it turns out, anybody) had encountered before. The El Cap rock is so much better than we were used to that it enabled much smaller flakes to be hooked than we initially imagined. To get comfortable with what could be hooked on the slab, we spent a couple of days hook bouldering along the base of the slab.
I should point out that people underestimate the value of aid bouldering. In a couple of days one can very quickly get up to speed on the nature of a particular sort of climbing by just aid bouldering it. Witness our ability to go from basically no sandstone experience to doing "possibly the hardest rock climb in the world" (from Climbing magazine's hype of Intifada). Aid bouldering is all one needs to learn how to do a particular sort of aid climbing, that is if one has some intelligence and already has the "head" for hard aid climbing.
So, at this point I'm not sure what you hope to gain from this line of questioning, Steve. Let's consider your options:
1) You can harp on the fact that we WERE "inexperienced kids," and that THIS justifies the treatment we received. Sorry. This isn't going to fly for several reasons. First, we WERE doing good quality climbing on that slab, as has since been verified. This could have been verified by the chopping party or by anybody that cared to hike up to the base. There was and is no direct correlation between our prior experience and the quality of climbing on WoS. So our prior experience appears to be moot. Second, it is obvious from the GROUND that the route is nothing like the lies told about it and about us. In fact, the LIES are what justified and motivated the mob mentality. Finally, and most damning, not ONCE did anybody hassle us about our "inexperience" as we were putting up the climb. During the month after the route was chopped, while we were forced to ascend the ranger hierarchy and spend hours and hours talking with groups of SAR boys and impromptu "meetings" with groups of hostile locals, not ONCE did anybody raise that issue. ALL the discussion centered around the "bolt ladder" we were blasting up El Cap. No matter how many times we offered to bring people up to the base with us, no matter how often we offered to bring people up to our anchors so they could see first-hand what was happening, people preferred to believe lies told by "credible" people who had not seen the route for themselves. Even the chopping was done at night.
2) You might say that we were inexperienced and use that to say that we could have put up a much better route had we had more experience. Maybe so, maybe no. Prior to us, nobody on Earth had experience with the sort of hooking that WoS has. We learned all we needed to know about it in a couple of days bouldering around the base of the slab. We were willing to take our falls, and we did. We were willing to risk our flesh and our joints, and we lost some of those too. Also, had we done other routes, like let's say the Sea first, we would have learned that significant levels of "enhancement" were employed, along with trenched heads and so forth. We didn't use those tactics on WoS largely because we didn't know about them. And it turns out that our drilling ratio is better than the Sea's anyway. It's pure speculation at this point how the route would have been different. I for one doubt it would have been better.
3) You might say that our lack of YOSEMITE experience justified the mob mentality. Several people have alluded to this idea: that we could have made things much easier on ourselves by integrating ourselves into the local climbing community first. I certainly understand the motivation behind this line of thought, but it was actually untenable for a number of reasons, and, finally, it is itself no justification. It was untenable because we were so poor that we simply could not afford to make the number of Yosemite trips that would have been necessary to "join the club," so to speak. But, let's say that we HAD been able to afford to make many Yosemite trips. Ok, picture this: Mark and I don't drink, don't smoke, don't do drugs, don't find most of the typical "humor" funny, and we kept the Sabbath. I actually laugh when I think of us "integrating" into the "local scene" of that era. People, that wasn't going to happen, and it is nutty to think that we were going to find anything but incredulous stares. No, instead, as the trouble began, we honestly and idealistically believed that we would be able to dialog reasonably with anybody that had a problem with the route.
This is a PUBLIC park, remember. NOBODY has "rights" to the resources there. We were honestly surprised to find the "dogs pissing on trees" mentality (Harding's summation of it). We didn't have it or see it in SoCal. And we honestly believed that "people are people" everywhere and could be reasoned with.
No, none of these approaches to our "inexperience" are going to act as an explanation or justification because of two simple facts. First, we were NOT inexperienced. The fact that we didn't have tons of YOSEMITE experience is meaningless, and THIS is something that people would do well to understand once and for all! It is simply ridiculous and outrageous to cut any slack toward individuals that still believe it is proper or appropriate to act the way people acted back then (and few even since then). The fact that we weren't known in YOSEMITE circles is NO excuse for people to have given up HUMAN values and ethics and thereby REFUSE to discourse like reasonable human beings.
Second, the fact remains (and becomes clearer with time) that it was the stupidity, arrogance, and unreasonable "dogs pissing on trees" mentality that HAD to be sustained, and it is THAT mentality that still seeks for a justification today. THAT mentality causes herds, mobs, gangs, and finally nations to rise up against each other. I read on other threads how people decry the US military spending and the wars of aggression in which we are engaged. But you will find the same lust for power, elitism, arrogance, and determination to avoid accountability behind ALL of it.
Our experience or lack thereof is a red herring BECAUSE is has no relevance to how we were treated, and there IS no justification for the decades of lies that started from the beginning of the route and that a few people continue to try to sustain to this day. Ignorance is no crime. Intentional ignorance is negligent. Stupidity and determination to believe a lie in the face of the evidence is reprehensible. But violating PEOPLE on the basis of intentional lies is absolutely wrong, and there is no possible justification for it.
I know you're looking for some wiggle-room here, Steve. But, at this point, a reasonable man says, "It would have been easier for us if you had been 'in' our circle, but people still acted wrongly toward you, and we found excuses to avoid the clear truth and to stoop to the lowest forms of mob mentality and actions. Big mistake. Let's put it behind us." And we will be happy to do so. There have already been many reasonable people on this forum. Will you be among them, or will you "stand proud" with mimisoft and claim that it was the "elite" that believed and perpetrated lies and used them to justify unjustifiable behavior?
So, my real question for you is this: since you continue to employ hearsay about the route (body-length distance between drilling, and so forth), I have to conclude that you have never SEEN the route for yourself first-hand. After all, why would you ask questions that would be stupid if you had actually been to the base of the route and LOOKED at what is there? Why do you continue to ask such questions in the face of what Pete and Ammon have reported? WHAT would it take to convince you that there are run-outs of hooking like you have never experienced? Are you utterly beyond the reach of evidence?
Answer me: HAVE you been to the base of the route to actually SEE what is there? If "no," then what makes you think that you have ANYTHING to say about the route? If "yes," then why do you keep asking ridiculous questions the answers to which are in front of your face?
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Wrathchild
Big Wall climber
Satan's testicles
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Dec 30, 2007 - 07:55pm PT
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Richard,
nobody but you cares enough to read that much of a post about this.
Use Mark's real name? Are you serious? You guys WROTE A BOOK! We all know who you are. Even my mother knows who you are.
If you crave the attention so much as to dredge this festival of idiocy back up, I suggest, you go prove how badass you really are, and go do the SA. That will shut EVERYONE up for good, but you will be videotaped with a huge zoom lens, count on it.
So I throw down the gauntlet:
Put up
Shut up
Or get over it
This has been tiresome in the extreme.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Dec 30, 2007 - 08:07pm PT
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Steve Grossman: " What does Mescadawn have to do with this discussion Graniteclimber?"
Steve, do I really need to spell it out to you, or are you being purposely obtuse? If WOS is "bad" (in the eyes of Mark and Richard's critics) because of its drillings and modifications and there are other climbs in the the area with more drillings and modifications then WOS, then those climbs are "worse." If there are worse climbs then WOS, then Mark and Richard's critics should direct their fire against the more egregious climbs. If they are taking a rational, principled stand.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Dec 30, 2007 - 08:18pm PT
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Wrathchild, WE did not dredge anything back up. We are simply responding to what others have dredged up. If you can't be bothered to engage with the topic enough to read what everybody takes the time to post, then you should just butt out of it. Grossman asked a question, and I answered it. If you don't want to read it, no problem, but if after reading ALL I have written over the years you think that I'm going to back down from a posting like your's, you are... well... come to think about it, CLEARLY you don't take the time to read, so you are ignorant on the subject.
Your idea of us doing the SA is laughable on countless levels, and you obviously don't know anything about this topic if you think that "attention" is what's motivating my end of this discussion. Quit projecting.
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Dec 30, 2007 - 08:21pm PT
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Gospodi!
Mimi’s post says more about the mentality of the rock climbing “community” in that time and place than anything else.
Looks like in order to be able to climb in a national, public park without your personal rights being violated you have to submit a comprehensive resume to the approval of the valley hierarchy. Don’t get all high and mighty about maintaining the ethics or the essence of the spiritual journey or any of that, you’re trying to give yourselves ground to stand on - when frankly you have none - while ignoring the fact that the damage done to the rock, if any, is so miniscule that multiple independent observers have stated that they would never have noticed it if the two FA climbers hadn’t had the sack enough to be upfront about the less than little that did occur.
You can talk about the slippery slope of rock climbing ethics and all that but again, taff, no one’s been up that route a second time. There’s no one to see the route and say “See, it was okay for the WoS boys.” And it sure as hell doesn’t give you justification for what you did.
And what does it say about your “spiritual journey” that the way you deal with people you don’t agree with or feel aren’t experienced enough to do the run they claim is to refuse dialogue, refuse to investigate their routes as freely offered, violate their civil rights repeatedly and in heinous fashion and then brag about it, then spend the next 25 years engaging in a campaign of slander, lies, and suppression of the truth through the utilization of others in your inner clique?
And now, Mimi, when it’s becoming clear to most everyone who’s who and what’s what, you try to turn it around and say, “Here, see? They never gave us their comprehensive resume.” Wow. Great. Well now, that totally justifies everything you folks did. In the words of Judge Judy, “Don’t pee on my leg and tell me it’s raining.”
And the other quote was mine. “It is good to see that across the internet asininity pervades each community with the same certainty as algae staining the inside of a toilet flush tank. It's comforting that there are constants in the universe.” While I admit that Matt was pretty well right on the money with one of his responses to me that what did I honestly expect on the internet, I don’t know. I guess I expected more of what I would have thought to be a supportive, spiritually sound community built around a damn ballsy sport. For cry yi, I’ve seen Warcraft communities that are more mature.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Dec 30, 2007 - 08:25pm PT
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Wrathchild: "If you crave the attention so much as to dredge this festival of idiocy back up."
If you had taken the trouble to read the thread first, you would see that it was Mimi who resurrected this thread, not Richard. But it is typical of the critics in this thread to make false accusations without any factual basis, so don't let that stop you.
Wrathchild: "Richard, nobody but you cares enough to read that much of a post about this....I suggest, you go prove how badass you really are, and go do the SA."
So you can't even be bothered to read his post, but you want him to go back and do another ascent?
Why don't you go back and do a second ascent?
So I throw down the gauntlet:
Put up
Shut up
Or get over it
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Dec 30, 2007 - 08:30pm PT
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Oh boy! A FULL ON RICHARD RANT appears above! Time to grab my beer and sit down for a read!
Da Dweeb - Bravo! {applause}
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Dec 30, 2007 - 08:31pm PT
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graniteclimber:
[topo for Mescadawn]
> Does this route have more or fewer drillings and modifications then WOS?
More. If it matters, I have climbed Mescadawn, and looked at the topo for Wings of Steel. I have also done the routes on either side of Wings of Steel (Aquarian/Never Never Land and Horse Chute).
Way more if you compare the original Dawn Wall / Wall of Early Morning Light with Wings of Steel. The original Dawn Wall had 330 drilled holes, and it was climbed over a period of 27 days - see the Robbins interview in The Vertical World of Yosemite, p. 200.
Although this question suggests you don't know the history (you can read the above book). The original Dawn Wall had the bolts removed (aka "chopped") from the first few pitches, because some/many of the resident climbers at that time felt that too many bolts were used. Later the people removing the bolts changed their minds and climbed the rest of the route without removing bolts. A few years later, Mescalito was done, which crosses the original Dawn Wall and uses a much smaller number of bolts, although it still has a fairly long rivet/bolt ladder across much of 2 pitches.
When Wings of Steel was done, some/many of the resident climbers were concerned that it was going to use "too many" bolts, like the original Dawn Wall. The FA team's fixed ropes and some bolts were removed and vandalized by a few people, apparently after some incorrect judgement was made about the number of bolts/drilled holes on the first pitch or two. Steve is trying to understand if that judgement was made correctly or not.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Dec 30, 2007 - 08:38pm PT
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Oh! Oh! I'm halfway through Richard's RANT! He's about to shoot himself in the foot! I can see it coming!
Wow, I finished. That was pretty darn good, Richard. Your foot appears intact.
Please don't despair about not being in "the club" - I've been climbing walls in Yosemite every spring and fall since 1995, and I'm still not one of the Cool Kids. Bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!!!!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Dec 30, 2007 - 08:42pm PT
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Nope, not this time, Pete. lol
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Dec 30, 2007 - 08:47pm PT
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Thanks, Pete. I'm relieved that it passed inspection. You had me worried there for a minute.
Sheesh, even geeks are cool now.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 30, 2007 - 11:10pm PT
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Is that a "yes, I had climbed an established pitch A3 or harder which was longer than 100'" or a "no, I had not climbed an established pitch A3 or harder which was longer than 100'?"
How many hook moves in total on your surviving Riverside Quarry routes and what were they rated by consensus?
Once the hammer pick and drill come into play, the sustainability of your work becomes an issue of interest. The basic problem for any prospective repeat ascent is that you guys didn't craft your route with anything but your own passage in mind. The original hook placements dimpled or not have likely deteriorated or failed due to the intense tip pressure inherent in the narrow Logan hook design.
The initial state and difficulty of this particular route is important because subsequent ascents will constantly deal with the drill-to-suit quandry. The first ascent party reached for the drill when modification seemed necessary for security sake, why shouldn't I, but how much is OK? By being vague about the number and extent of your hooking modifications you don't really provide that next party with much of a basis upon which to make their decisions.
First, the extent of modifications was deemed unimportant by you gents. Then you claimed that you couldn't remember exactly, which seemed rather implausible given your meticulous records. Then it was 8-10 total and now it sits at 15% of 151 or roughly 22? Right?
When I swung over to pith 9 of WOS from the Horse Chute, it was easy to spot your hook placements because many featured a tiny drilled dimple. Nobody else had been there and I don't have trouble recognizing a drill mark.
The funny thing is, over on pitch 6 of the Jolly Roger I went 6 hooks in row from top steps or above without any modification and we felt that the pitch only warranted A4+. Narrow Logan hook placements are very rare in my natural hooking only approach because they tend to shear off most microflakes with a rear fracture.
By the time that I did the Jolly Roger, I had done lots of hooking and the limitations of the narrow Logan hook had prompted me to fill in three sizes by tip grinding the wide Logan hook down. Charles also had an arsenal of custom hooks based on his experiences. Without the experience and the proper hardware we could not have an outstanding and well appreciated result.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 31, 2007 - 12:00am PT
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To all of you.
I'm gonna say this to you in a very calm and sincere voice just so you know.
Let it go. Just let it go.
This is the stuff mortals fight over. Don't carry it to your graves or you'll have to relive it again in the future.
It's for all of you and your own benefit to let this go and go beyond.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Dec 31, 2007 - 12:05am PT
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Steve Grossman: "When I swung over to pith 9 of WOS from the Horse Chute, it was easy to spot your hook placements because many featured a tiny drilled dimple. Nobody else had been there and I don't have trouble recognizing a drill mark.
Steve, your assumption is incorrect. Another party not only has climbed to the top of pitch 9 of WOS, but they report modifications that appear to have been added subsequent to the first ascent. "The Chief" reports "there were quite a few new shiney rivets here and there. And some of the hangers/bolts looked fresh."
http://www.summitpost.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=18794&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=240&sid=b788d7c03bd7a71bf935f2ea850c2443
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 31, 2007 - 12:15am PT
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I was up there in 1984 en route to doing Horseplay? Where were you?
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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Dec 31, 2007 - 12:31am PT
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necessitas probandi incumbit ei qui agit
"the necessity of proof lies with he who complains"
And with statements like this:
"I just talked with one of the Poo Crew and he remembers little more than a body length spacing anywhere."
Which is completely at odds with a first hand report of someone who has actually tried to climb the route.
Forgive me if I don't put any more trust in the lynch mob and the pooh crew.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Dec 31, 2007 - 12:44am PT
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Steve, is that a "No, I have never been to the base of the route?" I'll take your unwillingness to admit the fact as a "no," since you only mention swinging over onto the ninth pitch.
Ahhh, your observations of the ninth pitch. Old news, Steve, old news. We've already covered that before. Now you try to float the claim that "Nobody else had been there." HOW in the world can you assert that with any confidence, much less claim to know it? Ridiculous. That ninth pitch is the easiest pitch of the whole route to get onto, and if you think that you are the only person that has ever swung over onto that pitch, you are hilariously deluded. Let's ask one question: if we were drilling our hooks on the ninth pitch (one of the easier pitches on the route), WHY were we not drilling our hooks on the hard pitches? Makes no sense, Steve.
But, of course, sense is the farthest thing from your side of this topic, especially since you have never bothered to actually SEE the route about which you have viciously libeled and slandered for decades.
Regarding our modification tally, why would we have kept a tally of things that we considered insignificant then and now? Again, you try to make a deep, dark mystery out of that which is clear.
You keep asking for more and more irrelevant information. Here's the problem, Steve. You have made it clear on many posts that you simply don't believe what we say. Furthermore, you take everything we say and do your best to twist and manipulate it to suit your purposes, and then we spend inordinate time trying to respond to your new waves of BS. The most recent example? "First, the extent of modifications was deemed unimportant by you gents. Then you claimed that you couldn't remember exactly, which seemed rather implausible given your meticulous records. Then it was 8-10 total and now it sits at 15% of 151 or roughly 22? Right?" No, wrong! Show me where I have ever said 15%. Most recently, on this very thread, I said that the number was no more than 10%. So, on THIS very thread you have twisted my words to make it appear that the number keeps escalating, when the escalation is ONLY in your own mind.
You are determined to justify your groundless campaign of lies, and you ask me for more detailed information than I have already provided? Why should I give you one more iota of information, when you clearly have no other use for it than to twist it or ignore it as best suits you?
You make MUCH over this enhancement issue. You say the route is not repeatable/sustainable, etc. "Drill to suit?" Bah. If people have the same ethic we had on the route, where any modifications are not even visible, then that will be just fine. SHOW me the El Cap route that hasn't sprouted fresh modifications from the SA on! By your logic NO El Cap route is "repeatable/sustainable." On EVERY route necessary features deteriorate, fall off, etc. EVERY subsequent team, especially on early repeats, ends up adding their own touch to a route. And the smaller the features are, the MORE this fact holds true. Don't single WoS out for special condemnation on this point. I will NOT respond to this ridiculous double-standard regarding "enhancement" until you/mimisoft respond to our legitimate question on the "Peace and Love" thread.
Worse, your own post contains a pathetic inconsistency. You claim that our approach to the route is unsustainable because we were using such tiny features that we had to "modify" some of them, but these modifications MUST be pretty tiny because you admit that much of what we hooked/modified has surely fallen off since the FA. Yet, you also state that our "modifications" are clearly visible on the ninth pitch. You can't have it both ways. Either we drilled straight-in pits (which we have always denied), and so like other routes of this type the route is repeatable; or, as we have claimed, our FEW "enhancements" were so minor that they are invisible, in which case you are creating a tempest in a teapot.
I remind you of the history of slander/libel, a history, by the way, of which you have been a KEYNOTE speaker: the route is a bolt ladder, the route is a rivet ladder, the route is heavily drilled, the route is very enhanced, the route is trivially "enhanced," and finally all we can debate about is whether or not the route is repeatable/appealing. YOU have spread what are now known to be LIES for decades. YOU have done this without even bothering to hike to the base and scope the route out. YOU have posted as many lies about the route as these forums could sustain. And finally YOU are backed down to the point where all you can try to hassle us about is whether or not people can repeat the route in good style.
ALL I hear you saying now is that you have ZERO experience with WoS style hooking, so you literally don't know what is possible. YOU have always thought of yourself as the ultimate "bad ass" aid climber/hooker, but here is something you don't know anything about. So, instead of finding out, you simply spread lies.
***
Let's get down to it, Steve. You're Mr. Bad Ass aid climber, while I'm just an "inexperienced kid" (although I'm almost 50 now, hehe). So, let's get the rubber on the road, shall we? Here's my proposal:
You pick the bad ass, death route of your choice on El Cap. The only constraint I require is this: it must be an AID route. (I'm an old fart now, and can no longer climb 5.10x.) I'll do up to 5.9 comfortably, so keep it mostly aid. I'll SOLO this route. Pick your poison, Steve. This is your big chance to sic me on a death route.
In exchange, you SOLO the SA of Wings of Steel. You likely won't die on that one!
We will have, I'm sure, plenty of people happy to rap/jug to document the ascents. And don't worry about "enhancing" the hooks. I'll give you YOUR (and only your) estimate of 15%. In fact, let's go nuts. Go ahead and "enhance" 25 of your hook placements. The only rule is that each "enhancement" must be invisible when you are finished creating it.
This is MORE than fair, Steve, so don't wuss out on me. I'll do the route of your choice! I have no idea what route you would choose, and it might even be TWICE as long as WoS. Make it a loose one; I'm not afraid of loose. Make it a hooking route, Steve. There's no hooking you have ever done that is going to blow my shorts off. Really, I don't care. Pick the route, as long as it's an AID route on El Cap, and I'll SOLO it. At the SAME time, you SOLO Wings of Steel. By the real, initial start.
Cool, huh? How can you pass this up? YOU get your big chance to possibly, literally KILL two birds with one stone. Who knows what will happen to me on the route? And you will get to prove your points on WoS! Of course, the points will HAVE to be carefully documented. I want unbiased third parties watching everything up close and personal. But, let's settle it once and for all. It's soooo fair. I know nothing about the route you would choose for me, and clearly you know nothing about WoS! The beauty of this proposal for me is that whatever route you choose for me, I probably won't take a fall on it; but I guarantee you are gonna take falls on WoS. Maybe it will even cost you an ankle like the route cost me... maybe more. Cool, huh? Ante up. Put your flesh and joints where your mouth is. It's cheap and easy to bash on a route you haven't even seen.
I don't want to hear excuses, and I still await your/mimisoft's answer about the ridiculous double-standard regarding "enhancements" from the "Peace and Love" thread. So, don't keep asking me for more and more details about my life. As Joe wisely noted above, the only thing that matters is what's written in the stone. So, go up and see if you can follow my (and Mark's) handwriting, Steve. It's only "body length between drilling," right? Otherwise, can you for once in literally decades, simply shut up and stop lying? If you won't take up this obviously more than fair challenge, then you have nothing more to say or ask.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Dec 31, 2007 - 12:53am PT
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Well, a lot happened while I was writing my last post, including Werner's post. It's simple and has some wisdom. However, I am concerned that whenever we fail to respond, we are later accused of dodging. It's been very hard to know how best to respond over the decades. Trying to let the lies roll off of our backs proved ineffectual. Responding has seemed to some as defensiveness and raving. Please do cut me a bit of slack after decades of lies. At this point, my MO is to respond when slandered/libeled.
If quitting the discussion is best at this point, then it's simple to stop the discussion: just quit slandering/libeling us. The route awaits for anybody that cares. Let it speak.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Dec 31, 2007 - 01:20am PT
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Actually, it just occurs to me that I have not left you any graceful, save-face alternative here. And that is wrong. I'm being serious. So, let me put it like this, Steve. If you want to say, "Well, this has escalated pretty far, and I'm ready to let it go," then I'm ready to let it go too. Your call.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 31, 2007 - 01:36am PT
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I have spent lots of time along the base of El Cap, fool. Even though you write that the other little boys were coveting your prized Slab, I was probably the only one around that seriously considered heading up into that blankness.
First you threaten me with legal action and now a soloing duel to the Death!! The only problem is that anything goes with you with respect to hacking, chipping and chiseling while I just say no, so it's hardly a fair duel. LOL! As the Unstoppable Philosopher King armed with such tactics, you can, and have, travelled over the stone at will.
If you were half a man at the time of your little fecal persecution, you would certainly have been able to find out who the perpetrators were and come to some understanding. Not quite so big and tough back in those days. Trying to get the job done with a ranger sticking out of your ass was safe enough but fruitless.
Yes or no? The 100' A3, that is. Your turn.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Dec 31, 2007 - 01:46am PT
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So it goes. You punt. And you continue to lie. We did the fifth ascent of the Sea in perfect style, adding no modifications, etc. to the route. That fact is beyond dispute at this point. And we took zero falls on the route. I know how to do a route without adding anything to it.
As I said, BOTH of our ascents will be carefully documented. People can be present to verify the style of both of our ascents. ALL I'm asking is that you actually get ON the route you are bashing. Of course I know I'll have to make that worth your while. Hence my proposal.
You continue to blow smoke and call names, but I'm serious. I'll respond no more to you outside of the context of you rising to my challenge. Oh, and btw, your ascent of WoS shouldn't be "to the death," unless you are totally incompetent.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Dec 31, 2007 - 01:51am PT
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It won't help, Jody. Steve doesn't listen to the evidence already before him from other credible people. I want him to see for himself, and see if he's still got more to say after that. Let him put his flesh and joints where his mouth is. Talk is cheap and easy. Let's see if he can get up it (without a cheat stick, of course).
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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Dec 31, 2007 - 01:52am PT
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At least Jodi's got the smoke blowing phase of the mission down pat.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Dec 31, 2007 - 01:54am PT
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Steve Grossman: "If you were half a man at the time of your little fecal persecution, you would certainly have been able to find out who the perpetrators were and come to some understanding. Not quite so big and tough back in those days"
And earlier this month: "Poor confused poseurs, left with no credibility again."
Steve, this sounds like stuff a third grader would say. Werner is right. Mark and Richard should just let it go and not waste time responding to this crap.
You made false statements in print that you cannot escape from. No wonder you are so desperate. It is now you that lacks credibility.
Why should anyone believe anything you say? Can you prove you didn't enhance your hook placements on Jolly Roger? You claim you did not, but your word is no longer reliable. So how about it, can you prove it?
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Dec 31, 2007 - 01:56am PT
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Richard,
Your post of 9:44pm does not advance the discussion (as you seem aware of as well). The speculation about Steve's motives and complaining about past posts is not helpful. You can do better than this by simply answering the questions, even if it seems like they are repeats.
[Edit: the question about %modified hooks was answered - < 10% ; I missed that.]
possible p9 chronology:
1981 FA - Mark Smith, Richard Jensen
1984 Steve Grossman swings over to p9 from Horse Chute, and notices drilled dimples on some of the hook placements
1996 "The Chief", Thor Pelot climb to top of p9, and report some new/fresh appearing bolts (which they did not place).
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Dec 31, 2007 - 02:05am PT
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Clint, if you reread Steve Grossman's post, you'll see that there aren't any serious questions to be answered on WOS other then his request for confirmation that 15% were enhanced. Richard did answer this by calling bullshit on Steve.
Steve's questions about the Riverside Quarry are simply not relevant and answering them would not advance the discussion at all. However, the "speculation about Steve's motives" goes to the heart of this discussion.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Dec 31, 2007 - 02:11am PT
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graniteclimber,
Steve's post of 8:10pm contains several questions that are answerable, and at least relevant to Steve's understanding of the situation. I think they are worthy as well.
Even if the questions seem irrelevant or repeats, I believe answering them would advance the discussion.
Speculating about motives usually does not advance things.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Dec 31, 2007 - 02:13am PT
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Jody,
You need one of these:
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Dec 31, 2007 - 02:18am PT
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"I was probably the only one around that seriously considered heading up into that blankness."
Wow, impressive. [even for a third grader]
"I just talked with one of the Poo Crew and he remembers little more than a body length spacing anywhere."
Oh for frig's sake, you pathetic wankers! Walk your lazy ass up to the base of El Cap with a pair of binoculars, and LOOK! You can bloody see everything clearly because there's nothing in the way of your view, it's a flat slab! You can see how bloody far apart the bolts are!
Sheesh.
Richard, shut up already. Geeeeez.....
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Dec 31, 2007 - 02:21am PT
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I've stated, and I intend to stand by it now: Steve/mimisoft have failed to answer the most pressing question, and the one that would MOST advance the discussion about the major issue still remaining. Until that question is answered, they will get nothing more from me.
But now, as I've stated, I've upped the ante. Steve/mimisoft will get nothing more from me until we have an arrangement to swap solos.
I was prepared to back off after reading Werner's post, but Steve isn't having that. So, the chronology stands now as:
I call Steve out in a civilized, reasonable, and wholly appropriate way... a way that will actually advance everybody's knowledge.
Steve punts, makes excuses, blows smoke, and acts like a child.
I reiterate that I've got nothing more to say until one question is answered and we swap solos.
Steve blows more smoke... fails to rise to the challenge.
I'm done for the night. Gotta go to bed. I'll see in the morning if Steve is ready to sack up on two fronts. If not, I've got nothing more to say.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Dec 31, 2007 - 02:25am PT
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Clint Cummins: "Steve's post of 8:10pm contains several questions that are answerable, and at least relevant to Steve's understanding of the situation. I think they are worthy as well."
I am including a full copy of Steve's 8:10 pm post. Maybe you can go through it and identify those questions which you believe are answerable and relevant to the situation?
As you can see Steve asks about the Riverside climbs (not relevant). The only other answerable question is his request for confirmation that 15% of the placements was modified. As I mentioned, Richard responded to that.
The only other one is Steve's rhetorical "how much is OK? question regarding what he identifies as the "drill-to-suit" quandary. This is a rhetorical question, not an answerable question, and Richard addressed this issue.
There are not any other questions. So what are you requesting Richard to respond to? If you have questions you think should be answered, let's hear them.
Steve Grossman's 8:10 pm post:
Is that a "yes, I had climbed an established pitch A3 or harder which was longer than 100'" or a "no, I had not climbed an established pitch A3 or harder which was longer than 100'?"
How many hook moves in total on your surviving Riverside Quarry routes and what were they rated by consensus?
Once the hammer pick and drill come into play, the sustainability of your work becomes an issue of interest. The basic problem for any prospective repeat ascent is that you guys didn't craft your route with anything but your own passage in mind. The original hook placements dimpled or not have likely deteriorated or failed due to the intense tip pressure inherent in the narrow Logan hook design.
The initial state and difficulty of this particular route is important because subsequent ascents will constantly deal with the drill-to-suit quandry. The first ascent party reached for the drill when modification seemed necessary for security sake, why shouldn't I, but how much is OK? By being vague about the number and extent of your hooking modifications you don't really provide that next party with much of a basis upon which to make their decisions.
First, the extent of modifications was deemed unimportant by you gents. Then you claimed that you couldn't remember exactly, which seemed rather implausible given your meticulous records. Then it was 8-10 total and now it sits at 15% of 151 or roughly 22? Right?
When I swung over to pith 9 of WOS from the Horse Chute, it was easy to spot your hook placements because many featured a tiny drilled dimple. Nobody else had been there and I don't have trouble recognizing a drill mark.
The funny thing is, over on pitch 6 of the Jolly Roger I went 6 hooks in row from top steps or above without any modification and we felt that the pitch only warranted A4+. Narrow Logan hook placements are very rare in my natural hooking only approach because they tend to shear off most microflakes with a rear fracture.
By the time that I did the Jolly Roger, I had done lots of hooking and the limitations of the narrow Logan hook had prompted me to fill in three sizes by tip grinding the wide Logan hook down. Charles also had an arsenal of custom hooks based on his experiences. Without the experience and the proper hardware we could not have an outstanding and well appreciated result.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Dec 31, 2007 - 02:43am PT
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graniteclimber,
>I am including a full copy of Steve's 8:10 pm post. Maybe you can go through it and identify those questions which you believe are answerable and relevant to the situation?
OK.
> As you can see Steve asks about the Riverside climbs (not relevant).
I don't agree. Easy to answer, and relevant, in my view. Even if they seem trivial, that's really Steve's problem to deal with.
> The only other answerable question is his request for confirmation that 15% of the placements was modified. As I mentioned, Richard responded to that.
I'll reread that. I didn't think he actually answered it, but I could be wrong.
> The only other one is Steve's rhetorical "how much is OK? question regarding what he identifies as the "drill-to-suit" quandary. This is a rhetorical question, not an answerable question, and Richard addressed this issue.
I agree, rhetorical.
> There are not any other questions. So what are you requesting Richard to respond to? If you have questions you think should be answered, let's hear them.
The Riverside Quarry ones, at least.
> Steve Grossman's 8:10 pm post:
I'll add numbers for the questions.
(1) Is that a "yes, I had climbed an established pitch A3 or harder which was longer than 100'" or a "no, I had not climbed an established pitch A3 or harder which was longer than 100'?"
(2) How many hook moves in total on your surviving Riverside Quarry routes and what were they rated by consensus?
[statement about sustainability deleted]
> The initial state and difficulty of this particular route is important because subsequent ascents will constantly deal with the drill-to-suit quandry. The first ascent party reached for the drill when modification seemed necessary for security sake, why shouldn't I, but how much is OK? By being vague about the number and extent of your hooking modifications you don't really provide that next party with much of a basis upon which to make their decisions.
(rhetorical)
(3) First, the extent of modifications was deemed unimportant by you gents. Then you claimed that you couldn't remember exactly, which seemed rather implausible given your meticulous records. Then it was 8-10 total and now it sits at 15% of 151 or roughly 22? Right?
(maybe already answered today; I'll check)
[Edit: answered - no more than 10% - thanks, graniteclimber.
Also, thanks for the link to summitpost on the 1996 partial repeat by "The Chief" and Thor Pelot]
[statements about p9 and hooking on Jolly Roger deleted]
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Dec 31, 2007 - 02:50am PT
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"(3) First, the extent of modifications was deemed unimportant by you gents. Then you claimed that you couldn't remember exactly, which seemed rather implausible given your meticulous records. Then it was 8-10 total and now it sits at 15% of 151 or roughly 22? Right?"
Richard's answer: "No, wrong! Show me where I have ever said 15%. Most recently, on this very thread, I said that the number was no more than 10%.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Dec 31, 2007 - 02:54am PT
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And on the other side, here's Richard's question for Steve, from his 4:43pm post (and referenced by his later post):
> Answer me: HAVE you been to the base of the route to actually SEE what is there?
Easy enough to answer.
But the implication, also as suggested in Pete's most recent post, is that everything relevant on p1 is visible from the base. Steve seems to be implying that there might be drilled batholes that would not be visible from the base. Richard and Mark have insisted all along that there were no batholes until the p13 traverse when they ran short on rivets/bolts. Steve saw drilled "dimples" on p9 in 1984 and believes they were from the FA, so he does not trust Richard/Mark ? But it seems like he should trust Pete / Tom / Randy on the lack of batholes on p1 and Ammon / Tom / Randy on the lack on p2. Unless Steve thinks they were filled in later or something?
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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Dec 31, 2007 - 03:10am PT
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If you were half a man at the time of your little fecal persecution, you would certainly have been able to find out who the perpetrators were and come to some understanding.
The perpetrators are STILL cowards who won't fess up to their actions, and are still not being identified (protected) by those who know them. Come to an understanding with people who defecated on their property and those who defend them? Are you kidding?
Seriously outnumbered, threatened, property destroyed under the cover of night, and still they pursued their project. Richard and Mark acted with courage.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Dec 31, 2007 - 03:44am PT
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"> As you can see Steve asks about the Riverside climbs (not relevant).
I don't agree. Easy to answer, and relevant, in my view. "
Can you please explain why, in your view, those questions are relevant? What would the answers prove or disprove?
"But the implication, also as suggested in Pete's most recent post, is that everything relevant on p1 is visible from the base. Steve seems to be implying that there might be drilled batholes that would not be visible from the base."
Steve has stated that the route was "overbolted" and implied (citing one of the shitters, who is apparently an associate of his) that the bolt and rivets (not batholes) were at body length.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Dec 31, 2007 - 03:56am PT
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all that i have ever learned in any of these arguments is that shitting on ropes makes for shitty treads
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Dec 31, 2007 - 03:57am PT
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edit: post removed... Just not worth it. Better things to waste time on.
Happy New Year, mates!
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Dec 31, 2007 - 06:01am PT
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>>"> As you can see Steve asks about the Riverside climbs (not relevant).
>>I don't agree. Easy to answer, and relevant, in my view. "
>Can you please explain why, in your view, those questions are relevant? What would the answers prove or disprove?
I liked the first half of Richard's 4:43pm post where he explained about his aid climbing experiences from the Riverside Quarry with Mark. It gave some good perspective on why they had the skills, to the surprise of the Valley guys who thought that stuff could only be learned in the Valley or something (well actually they also learned by aid bouldering on the base slab). It would seem to me that answering the (rather arbitrary) questions about the 100' pitch and "consensus" rating gives a little more background on the Riverside Quarry to people who are not familiar with it. Maybe it would even close out these questions on prior experience from Steve. I agree with Richard that it is slab micro hooking experience which is relevant; few people have those skills although Steve is one of the people who does. (I am not saying that the difficulty of slab hooking was the same on Jolly Roger and Wings of Steel).
How about an equivalent question for Steve - where did you learn slab hooking before doing Jolly Roger?
>>"But the implication, also as suggested in Pete's most recent post, is that everything relevant on p1 is visible from the base. Steve seems to be implying that there might be drilled batholes that would not be visible from the base."
>Steve has stated that the route was "overbolted" and implied (citing one of the shitters, who is apparently an associate of his) that the bolt and rivets (not batholes) were at body length.
Yes. Although in that recent post Steve didn't specify exactly what was at body length (bolts, rivets or holes). Obviously there is a conflict between the report of the chopper/defecator and the current observed state of p1-p2. One possible explanation could be the holes were expertly patched, but that seems unlikely, since Pete was able to do most of the moves on toprope and Rob Slater led them (I believe the original versions of p1-p2, but maybe I'm wrong). Since others have done the original p1-p2 in their current state, in my view clearly Mark and Richard probably did them in that state as well. Perhaps Steve can clarify what his point is on the state of the original p1-p2 then and now?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 31, 2007 - 06:21am PT
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Having only been there once for four days I find it a wonder that a place as big as the Valley could collapse so small, though I suppose there is no reason why the Vatican of climbing, or its high priests, should be immune to petty bullsh#t. But the continuing verbal histrionics around the whole affair are ridiculous when the entire reality of any and all aspects of the controversy with any merit are 'etched' in stone to be had by all.
How many holes? How many rivets or bolts? Of what type and size? How far apart? How many visible enchancements? To what degree were they drilled or enhanced? How hard? Those answers are all still there to be had by anyone man or woman enough to go get them. The 'legitimacy' of the route would seem to be established fairly by the fact it attracted the "Chief" and his partner ([url="http://www.summitpost.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=18794&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=225&sid=3adb50e0783f50a4c401e067395f9bf9" target="new"]over on SummitPost[/url]) who hailed from hard aid on Looking Glass in NC and had no knowledge of the associated 'affair' at the time they got on it. They were simply attracted to the line while on the Dihedral Wall.
Why do I give a f*#k? Because it could just as easily have been me and my partner back then had we not been so oriented around free climbing and sandstone. And though I've been thwarted in each of the last five years in any attempt to get down there again (to get on the left half of the Sentinel), if I ever do manage to get things lined up, WoS is going to be my first stop. I'm more than willing to take Ammon's word in the matter, but this I'm going to have to eyeball firsthand if I'm down that way.
I'm clearly no one and have about as deep a connection with the Valley as LEB, but twenty five years later the most embarassing aspect of the whole affair appears to be the fact the hard men who did the shitting and chopping still don't have the balls to simply stand up and own it even if under a righteous banner of guarding Eden from the barbarians. If there's still a stain involved, it would seem to be one of indignation.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 31, 2007 - 06:58am PT
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I'm in a societally disassociated code mode that has sh#t-shifted my normal insominia clockwise. Thanks for reminding me to get back to work. Would love to run into you again in 2008 as well.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Dec 31, 2007 - 12:01pm PT
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Radical,
What ER do you work? Just curious. I was a fireman/paramedic for LA City Fire for 15 years and feel your pain. Just a fireman now, much less stress. Some of tose ER docs looked rode hard. Especialy the docs at County USC.
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Lost Arrow
Trad climber
The North Ridge of the San Fernando
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Dec 31, 2007 - 01:31pm PT
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Has anyone come forth as a Shitter?
I know some got kicked of YOSAR?
Pete did you use Duct Tape to bond your hooks as the FA team did? All those years ago I seeem to remember streams of duct tape streaming dowb the wall.
Juan
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MSmith
Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 31, 2007 - 01:36pm PT
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Juan,
We didn't tape any hooks on WoS since our hooks wouldn't support a fall and we didn't want to stip off the flakes.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Dec 31, 2007 - 03:49pm PT
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I'm still waiting... waiting for a shred of honor here.
Let me make this even easier for you, Steve. I'll do the route you select FIRST, and that way you can be right there as I do it. You can watch, and you can heckle all you want. You can personally ensure that I don't drill the route down to my level.
THEN, we'll turn our attention to Wings of Steel.
I'm deadly serious here. This is not a gimmick. I want to see if you have a shred of honor. When in the whole history of climbing has there been somebody like you that has had SO much to say about a route he has never even SEEN much less been on? And BTW, when I asked you if you had been to the base of the ROUTE, you did not effectively answer by claiming to have walked around the base of the slab PRIOR to WoS. I asked if you had been to the base of Wings of Steel and looked at IT, and you effectively admitted that you have NOT. How can you have so much to say about a route you have never SEEN or been ON?
Robbins had the honor to CLIMB WEML, and he had the honor to admit that he had misjudged the climb and the man.
I'm just trying to come up with SOME way to get our most vociferous critic to exhibit a shred of honor after all these decades.
So, I'll go first, and then you can finally get ON the route about which you have had so many lies to tell over the decades.
How can I make this more fair? What concessions do you want? What will it take to get you ON the route before you continue with your cowardly lies and red-herring questions?
Show some honor, Steve.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Dec 31, 2007 - 03:52pm PT
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If i'm not mistaken, someone here did, proudly, confess to being a shitter.
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TwistedCrank
climber
Ideeho
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Dec 31, 2007 - 03:55pm PT
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He's comparing himself to Batso?
That's the funniest thing I've ever heard. Funny in a scary clown kind of way.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Dec 31, 2007 - 04:31pm PT
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Twisted Crank: "He's comparing himself to Batso?"
No, he's not comparing himself to Batso. Others have compared WOS to the Dawn Wall and he is saying that Steve Grossman is no Royal Robbins.
Ironically enough, I was reading Royal Robbins' review of Harding's Downward Bound in The Games Climbers Play. This line. on the Dawn Wall, struck a chord. Royal Robbins made the second ascent with intent of chopping the route.
"Harding and Caldwell showed remarkable tenacity and toughness, more then has been shown by most climbers and by probably all of their detractors and critics. It was in fact a formidable effort."
The same could be said of Richard and Mark. There! Now the comparison has been made, but by me, not Richard.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Dec 31, 2007 - 04:35pm PT
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"It would seem to me that answering the (rather arbitrary) questions about the 100' pitch and "consensus" rating gives a little more background on the Riverside Quarry to people who are not familiar with it."
Again, what would answering these questions prove or disprove about WOS? The Riverside Quarry is an interesting topic but would not advance the discussion of WOS.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Dec 31, 2007 - 05:02pm PT
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Cool, there we have it. I'll do the Jolly Roger, and Steve can do WoS. Deal?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Dec 31, 2007 - 05:12pm PT
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Doode, you need to reevaluate your motivations for posting.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Dec 31, 2007 - 05:21pm PT
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Pathetic. There is no honor here. I'm done. Reasonable people have learned the truth. The rest are unreachable.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Dec 31, 2007 - 05:30pm PT
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Twisted Crank's deleted posts:
Re: WoS / PTPP, part XXVI (continued from XXV ) Dec 31, 2007, 01:43pm PST
Author:
TwistedCrank
climber
From: Ideeho
Your interpretive skills are lacking Crinklecut.
Comparing WoS to the Jolly Roger is like comparing a velvet Elvis to a van Gogh.
Or not.
Re: WoS / PTPP, part XXVI (continued from XXV ) Dec 31, 2007, 02:07pm PST
Author:
TwistedCrank
climber
From: Ideeho
Doode. You need to reevaluate your motivations for climbing at all.
Re: WoS / PTPP, part XXVI (continued from XXV ) Dec 31, 2007, 02:17pm PST
Author:
TwistedCrank
climber
From: Ideeho
To mess with chumps and connect with friends. Reevaluation complete.
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coward
Trad climber
Boulder, Wyoming
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Dec 31, 2007 - 05:53pm PT
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I honestly think that this thread is the most amazing thread in the history of this great site. Reading most of the posts has consumed a lot of my time (which in my case isn't too valuable anyway) but I find the whole thing fascinating. I have nothing to do with the whole affair, but I love any spirited discussion of climbing ethics. A few things I have to say:
1. From what I've read, I respect Richard and Mark tremendously - they're humble, articulate, and have left no shred of doubt in my mind as to the integrity and truth of their story. The posts they've left are thoughtful, intelligent always, and passionate.
2. Their detractors seem clumsy, illogical, spiteful and mean. Steve, sack up buddy or sit down, old fart. I don't care how hard you've climbed, you get no respect from me. You sound like a weasel on this forum. As have Mimi, Deuce4, and others at various times. You all sound like a bunch of jackasses - jealous, grudging, petty little people. Act your age and show some humility and compassion - admit you're wrong. How hard is that? Or if you can't do that, then give the route a whirl and honor your words. And don't say that the route is somehow "beneath" you by not satisfying your aesthetic standards. What bullsh#t.
3. Those who sh#t on the ropes are, in no uncertain terms, cowards. Your shame is your burden to bear. I can understand being young and subject to the mob mentality. So you made a mistake. How hard is it to apologize and cut your losses? Come clean and 'fess up. We all want to know who you are, cowards.
4. Many people have posted things like, "can we stop beating this dead horse yet?"
If you don't like the discourse, then simply don't keep coming back to the thread that annoyes you so much. All who have posted as such exhibit...idiot hypocracy.
5. Wings of Steel is a real intrigue. No one has ever said that it's the best route on the Captain. But no one can deny its historical significance now...What a story! Mark and Richard...39 days on the wall = AWESOME!! What a trip.
6. The idea that you need pay your dues in small increments is lame. Well, it is good AND bad but need not be an absolute. The Appalachian Mountain Club used to make Gunks climbers show certifiable credentials to lead, say, a climb of 5.7 rating. Then the Vulgarians shattered the caste system by thumbing their noses at the establishment. Yosemite climbers have done the same, generation after generation. This doesn't mean that respect for elders has gone out the window, but rather, in climbing there are few rules that are well-defined. Of course, "leave the rock as you left it," but that applies only to a certain degree on high-calibre aid climbs. If Mark and Richard climbed WoS before the Valley hierarchy accepted it, I say...that's brave and BRAVO! You guys didn't have to answer to anyone (and you know it, of course). I respect boldness...but more than that, I respect openness, honesty and good will. Mark and Richard have all of the above in spades.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Dec 31, 2007 - 06:40pm PT
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"Coward" (the one with the assigned supertaco poster name, not any generic usage implied),
Please note that I think there has been a meeting of the minds between Deuce4 and madbolter1 and msmith, and at this point probably doesn't deserve any additional condemnation from your last post.
But it's a long thread, understandable if you missed a post or two. I know I'm trying skip certain posts. :)
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Mimi
climber
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Dec 31, 2007 - 06:41pm PT
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Lois, it's been said very well before, "They climbed it to the best of their ability." That's the meat of the matter, their ability level at the time and the unfortunate results.
You submen are really something. You need to check out the snake oil they're selling too. And read their stupid book for crying out loud!! Their religious pilgrimage was like 40 days in the desert for them, not the climbing, or how well it was done. Sheer manifest destiny, everything goes. If you're good with that kind of weak sauce, see ya later.
As several qualified climbers have already stated, the WOS is a POS because of how it was done and where it is. Why would anyone want to get on that pile other than perhaps mere curiosity at best or to prove it's manufactured and then erase it for good? What a laugher comparing it to JR. And comparing anything these guys did to anything Harding did is preposterous.
Plus, from what's been reported, the route has for all practical purposes seen a subsequent ascent albeit not in one push. With visible bashed placements, water erosion, and time, not seeing drilled holes on the first two pitches is inconclusive combined with the fact that holes exist above. Would it help if I scanned pages from their book when Richard discusses the drilling activity?
Once again, because of what is provided in their little book, the RQ is very important with regard to their overall competence and preparation for a new wall route. The only aid route of length that one of them did prior to WOS was the Column. Even with Richard's painful essay above, their prior aid climbing experience is suspect and further exacerbated by the incredible amount and types of gear they brought up. Taking 39 days to do a 13-pitch route that then bailed onto an established line with 8 pitches to Thanksgiving is just crazy. Any of you praising this ridiculous amount of time as some awesome feat is missing a few.
For such master aidmen, they took 21 days on the Sea after WOS! That's about one pitch per day! They claim they didn't drill on the Sea (despite all of the drill marks they claim they saw) due to being watched so closely from the ground. I guess that's why it took them so long. It's obvious that anyone with wall climbing experience and who's read their book and jibberish on here and their site, and who was there or talked to any witnesses who were there at the time and watched them in action, heard the tapping, and have seen the drill marks and bashed placements, smells a rat. Let's not discount that they drilled all over their other two POS routes. That's how they climb. They don't give a crap about how they get to the top. But obviously, that's okay to many of you. What heroes!
graniteclimber, what is your name?
Oh, and by the way. Dick is a common nickname for Richard. Sorry you have such a one-track mind to assume it was a male body part reference. Sheesh!
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coward
Trad climber
Boulder, Wyoming
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Dec 31, 2007 - 06:58pm PT
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Mimi - you're an expert aid climber, aren't ya? Why don't you get on up there and try the route? Instead of running your mouth off. I'm no one's subman (I don't know what the term refers to) but I choose to make a call as I see it. You sound like someone who knows their way around the valley - I would think you would make more of an effort to learn about the route (say, first hand!) before condemning it.
And your blip about taking "too long" on a route...what does that prove? That they didn't have their Yosemite speed systems perfected before heading up the Big Stone? Maybe they should have waited until the late '90s to try it so they could take advice from Dean Potter first!
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MSmith
Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 31, 2007 - 07:08pm PT
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I can’t help being humored by Steve’s, “First you threaten me with legal action and now a soloing duel to the Death!!” Classic.
“And read their stupid book for crying out loud!! Their religious pilgrimage was like 40 days in the desert for them, not the climbing, or how well it was done.”
Wings of Steel, the book, is indeed an inspiring read for those who have a Judeo-Christian view of spirituality. I wholeheartedly concur with Mimi’s “read” recommendation, along with the caveat that it’s not a book about climbing. Richard, is the book long enough out of print that is it possible to post the entire book with art work on-line?
Hey, I’m getting ready to head off to a new year’s party. I think A 1000 Posts To Horse Chute has summited both figuratively and literally, and I’m ready to leave WoS debate to 2007. My appreciation to all who posted in good faith. When does Beacon open? Safe climbing in 2008.
--Mark
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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Dec 31, 2007 - 07:22pm PT
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As I said before I think the proof of the "unfortunate results" lies with the accusers. The accusers have been proved wrong time and again. If you want anybody to take you seriously it's time to offer some proof. The burden of proof is on you.
I guess I've become a submen because of all the credible evidence I've heard support Richard and Mark's account. Not the mob that attacked them.
Harding would be the first guy to say "Richard and Mark did a badass route, it's beyond anything I've ever done." But then again Batso didn't have the fragile ego others are displaying, and was a supportive, caring guy.
Please scan the pages about drilling.
Or how about this quote from the book:
"You don't like to drill the rock, because the whole idea in climbing is to accept the situation that the rock presents naturally and to adapt to it.
This ethic to use only natural features, is embraced by the climbing community and serves to slow the progress of rock destruction. Becuase the rock is a limited resource, climbers strive to preserve the climbs in as pristine a state as possible. Anybody can grab a drill and plant bolts and rivets all the way up a wall, ignoring the natural features that take skill and risk to use." -Richard Jensen
I've read time and time again how it is badass to come to the Valley and jump on a tough El Cap route as your first big wall route. For a couple guys to come and put up an FA, that sure sounds badass, with little experience is more significant than if they had a bunch of experience.
Climbing faster is better than climbing slower, but so what. On an FA it's the quality of the climbing that's important.
"They don't give a crap about how they get to the top." Complete bullsh#t. Prove it. I could make up all kinds of lies about you and your motivation, but that's quite weak.
So Mimi please scan the pages from the book where he discusses their drilling activity. Back up your claims with something, anything.
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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Dec 31, 2007 - 07:27pm PT
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The book was a great read, and possibly the best explanation I've ever read of climbing for the layman.
I appreciate, but don't subscribe to, the Judeo-Christian view of spirituality and still found the book an inspiring read.
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Jesus!
Trad climber
Tulsa
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Dec 31, 2007 - 07:29pm PT
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Mimi is hopeless. Thinking of her conjures images of clowns in horror films.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 31, 2007 - 07:57pm PT
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Mark, Beacon is open until Feb 1st - heading out tomorrow to do a run up the corner. It will reopen as soon as the Peregrines fledge - typically in the second half of June or early July; July 15th at the latest. Come on out sometime...
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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Dec 31, 2007 - 08:08pm PT
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Munge-
I wouldn't say there was necessarily a "meeting of the minds", yet I don't think there is anything to gain by further debating the past. 1982 was "before my time" as a valley local, but I showed up a few years later, and the point I was trying to make in these discussions was more about trying to create a picture of the prevailing attitude and ethic of the day(and no, the Wall of the Early Morning Light was not considered the standard). It was a time where drilling an additional bolt on an established route, for example, would have resulted in alienation from the climbing community, and you'd have a hard time ever finding another climbing partner in the valley.
That said, I wish the WOS team no harm and certainly don't see anything positive in continuing to debate them. I'm sure it's a hard route, but not something that personally appeals to me, neither the line nor the style. Basically, in my opinion, the route required a lot more drilled placements than what was generally going up at the time, and the technique of creating "humanly indiscernable enhancements" as an acceptable ethic irked many. But perhaps the technique of creating enhancements as long as another human can't discern them will become acceptable in the future, and the slab could be the future for a slew of new routes in similar style. To me, it seems like cheating both the stone and Mother Nature (but so did top-down route establishment), and a pain-in-the-arse for subsequent ascents, but Time Will Tell.
The facts are this: Mark and Richard did their best, and got their ropes shat on. A sad state of affairs for all involved. But if you're not having fun no matter what people "think", then what's the point? Then again, perhaps all this reflects the merits (or lack thereof) of peer pressure in the climbing community.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 31, 2007 - 08:20pm PT
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Just food for thought ......
Well you know that everything has an opposite? No?
What we might be forgetting here or missing in our understanding of our mundane world is:
1) We will always have a detractor. There must be one! That is the law of the Universe.
2) All of us have every right to do wrong along with doing right. This is our independent free will.
Jensen quote: "I'm still waiting... waiting for a shred of honor here." unquote.
Steve has no obligation to honor. He can remain a detractor as long as he wants to. This is his free will, no matter what anyone thinks. Just as it was your freedom to go do what you wanted to do on El Cap, regardless of your detractors wishes at that time. "Free will again"
Where's his honor? For his independent free will to express his passion?
You're not going to squeeze anything out of some people no matter what, even with your challenge to both of you do a route each, Steve WOS, you Jolly Roger?
It's just the way it is in life.
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Jesus!
Trad climber
Tulsa
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Dec 31, 2007 - 08:38pm PT
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Valley Christians are immortal. The rest of you must go to hell.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Dec 31, 2007 - 08:41pm PT
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Whether or not Steve G chooses to pick up the glove, I think it would be a cool thing if you soloed Jolly Roger, MB-1. Mind you, you'll still have the same antagonists, and won't switch that many minds, but it is a worthy, symmetrical, climbing goal! All things (esp, family, etc) allowing.
Good luck!
Happy new year to all!
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Lost Arrow
Trad climber
The North Ridge of the San Fernando
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Dec 31, 2007 - 09:46pm PT
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The type of rock and angle determines how the hooking will go.
With such difficult hooking is it not expected the climbers will take Sunday off to pray.
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Dec 31, 2007 - 10:19pm PT
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Radical -
Hilarious. Just... Hilarious.
But you forgot to mention the Benny Hill soundtrack...
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Dec 31, 2007 - 10:47pm PT
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Excuse me, let me adjust the large capital L on my forehead, as I have no date on New Year's Eve.
I'm sorry I wasn't clear in my trip report - I saw no bathook holes anywhere on the first pitch. Tom told me he saw none on the second. I doubt you could see a bathook hole from the ground. You can see the rivets and bolts, though, quite easily.
An interesting question has been raised someplace above - I remember Richard and Mark saying that they thought maybe 8-10 total "enhancements", those enhancements defined as something on the near-microscopic scale. It's been 25 years, and water runs down the slab in rain. Is it not possible that the micro-enhancements they made have weathered, and you might have to re-do some of them? Or is it possible that other edges they used have weathered so as not to be useable? This may sound preposterous, but so small are these damn "edges" I hooked on, that what I describe above is conceivably possible!
Another possibility is that as I was stumped for a couple hook moves, maybe the edges those guys used have weathered to become unuseable, and might need re-enhancement?
Some other things I am just remembering:
The two or three hook moves I just couldn't suss were near the top of the first pitch. I'd been standing in my aiders for five damn hours hooking, and my off-the-couch body was twisted in agony. You have to do some pretty crazy twists and turns to stay in balance on the bloody things. I was having no fun, and I had already decided by that point that I was in over my head, and the "headpoint" ascent was not going to happen. I was not prepared to run five-hour laps to learn how to hook these things. Obviously Mark and Richard were quicker studies than me. So I possibly just didn't look hard enough for the placements - by then I was in the "fvck this!" mentality.
I'm pretty good at hooking, but I'm not that good. You've gotta be a Grossman or Jensen or Smith or McNeely to pull this one off - Zabrok ain't quite up to snuff.
I also just remembered what really wigged me out up there! Right near the top of the first pitch only one or two moves from the anchor bolts, you get to some decent-looking edges, and I thought, "yay, finally." There was a pretty good edge that I got on, and had been standing on for some time, maybe a minute, when the damn thing blew! I'm tellin' yous guys, if I had been on lead when that hook blew, I was a good 25' above the last bolt, and for me it would have been the Fall Of A Lifetime, because the slab here is low-angle, and there are several small ledges maybe 6" to 12" wide [there is one big enough to stand on for a no-hands rest]. So a minimum 55-foot fall, bouncing off ledges. That sorta thing can kill you, man.
Riley - You forgot this on the marquis: "Steve Buscemi as 'Pass the Pitons' Pete"
Richard - are you frickin' NUTS?? GEEEEEEEZ. Laughing my ass off at your ranting challenges. Can you get up out of your wheelchair without tripping over your long grey beard?
Coward - fabulous! Who are you, by the way? We honour identity here. Do you still have to climb the Durrance Route on Devil's Tower first before they "let" you climb elsewhere?
Mark and Richard - you took 21 days on the Sea???? Holy frig, YOU GUYS SUCK! Even *I* am faster than you guys - you pathetic wankers! Bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!
Mimi, oh Mimi. Me oh my. Why does he call you mimisoft? You sure as hell have a lot to say for someone who hasn't done any big walls.
I am Dr. Piton,
and I am PROUD to be a SUBMAN to Mark Smith and Richard Jensen.
Those guys are bad to the bone, and their route KICKED MY ASS!
Bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Dec 31, 2007 - 11:08pm PT
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Funny post, Pete. Yeah, we're slower than a glacier. Of course, in typical fashion, there is a real story behind the distortions. We only fixed one pitch, instead of the typical five. We spent three Sabbaths and lost two days to rain. Also we thrutched around for many hours one day trying to get some of our water down and across to the Heartland team (which Barbella and Brand will verify). All told, that's about 15 actual climbing days. So, how does that compare to you, Dr. Speed Demon? Harharhar
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Lost Arrow
Trad climber
The North Ridge of the San Fernando
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Dec 31, 2007 - 11:22pm PT
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Anyone ever invent a device that could load hooks before you trust them. Some type of ratchet device with a load cell.
Did you guys bring a bible on the route?
Juan
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Dec 31, 2007 - 11:29pm PT
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I can't believe that Arnold won't be in the movie. No Terminator? I mean, how else is this all ever going to end?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Dec 31, 2007 - 11:30pm PT
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Yeah, a Bible and some other books. We actually like to live up there. We're pretty relaxed about "making tracks."
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coward
Trad climber
Boulder, Wyoming
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Dec 31, 2007 - 11:31pm PT
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Pete - my name is Tristan Perry. All I've done in Yosemite is gawk. I do climb wherever/whenever I can. And I haven't even done the Durrance Route...how pathetic is that? In time...in time. Just need to get back there is all.
Happy New Year!
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Lost Arrow
Trad climber
The North Ridge of the San Fernando
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Dec 31, 2007 - 11:44pm PT
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I once was at the belay on the Nose at the top of pitch three when I heard this terrible noise and yelling. As rocks slammed into the apron a few feet from me I smelt burning granite. I remember praying to Jesus
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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So, Riley, busy night at the ER? I'm home sick, sorting and scanning old family photos for entertainment.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Well, let's hope it continues to be reasonably quiet for you...
Because I'm not sure I could stomach any more of those gory photos you posted the other day. :-)
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EP
Social climber
Way Out There
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Well, Mimi reminds me of a person I work with:
She complained about anonymous harassing letters put in her work mailbox. As shop steward, I took her letters to management and the harassing letters to our counsel. Close examination revealed that she had written the letters to herself. The same misspellings, unusual punctuation and fractured grammar were evident in all the letters.
I suspect that Mimi may be a WOS insider.
Elgin Phelps.
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Lost Arrow
Trad climber
The North Ridge of the San Fernando
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Sh#t I have a bad hangover.
Juan
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Yes, the various 'caring' professions - police, fire, nurses, doctors, EMTs, S&R people, military - do tend to have somewhat dark senses of humour. A necessary coping mechanism, shared by many climbers.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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"I suspect that Mimi may be a WOS insider."
interesting notion.
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was proving he didn't exist.
not sure why that just came to me now. I think it's a twilight zone episode.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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munge-
that's from "the usual suspects"
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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oh yeah, thx! Totally forgot.
That's such a good movie too. How could I ferget?
no sleep this weekend really. my posts tend to suffer for it.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Be very careful what you say, Mimi is Kaiser Sose
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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A violent movie, too, that would have given Riley lots of gory pictures to post. But a well done movie at that, with lots of black humour.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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That movie would have been a lot better if Angelina Jolie had been in it, totally naked, for about 5 minutes.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Angelina Jolie {sigh}
Talk about smooch-O-licious lips!
When I was in high school, my friend's sister used to make fun of my [full sensuous] lips, because they are not thin like her [razor] lips. I am glad to discover that some thirty years later, my type of lips have finally come into style - done without collagen, all natural.
And in case you're wondering, I do knott have pectoral implants, either.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Unfortunately I have all too few degrees of separation from gill man.
And all too many from Angelina Joli!
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Oooh la la!
Men with thin lips should be prohibited from even thinking about kissing her, let alone actually doing it, for that would be to squander the resource that she is.
[A smooch-o-licious-lipped lady once taught me that truism in a real life application]
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Why in the 7 hells would Angelina get tattoos?
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Tattoos are HOT! In fact, I even have a theory about girls with tattoos....
Voice of John Cleese as Anne Elk: "Ahem, my theory...."
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Yeah but you are an AIDS climber, and so by definition have no taste or discretion.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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I have pretty good taste, actually. I can tell you lots about how to choose a good California Big Wall Cab for under six bucks, and show you how to open it properly on your portaledge with all correct wine snobbery.
It's the discretion part I sometimes have problems with....
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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OK... I'll add my 2 cents here, not that it matters, as I agree, completely with the gist of Werner's last post - nothing will change for some, no matter what.
There are NO bathook holes on the first pitch. There are NONE on the 2nd pitch. Not looking up from the ground, and not looking from 1 foot away, while on the slab itself. There also were no bathook holes I could see while at the top of pitch two, looking up at the route with a 100-400 Canon L lens. This, on a 1.6 crop is effectively a 640mm lens. And, now that I think of it, I was also using a 2x teleconvertor, which would bring us to 1280mm. Pretty much a low-powered telescope, at that point.
This whole "Thousand Bolts to Horse Chutes" stuff is just crap. The bolts/rivets on the route are spaced 25-35' apart. I don't see this route as over-bolted by either today's standards or by yesterday's. Seriously, you can figure this all out from the base. You can see the bolt/rivet placement. If you have poor eyesight or feel you need to see higher, then bring some binocs. Surely, the folks thrashing Richard and Mark must have had these, as I'm pretty sure most FAist or potential FAists had them to search out possible lines.
But then, we all know that the bolt/rivet count isn't what any of this was about, to begin with.
I could really care less about the "challenge", itself. I've talked to Mark and Richard, at length about this whole thing and have expressed, long ago, that I feel there are some people who's opinions will never be changed, no matter what. I've expressed that I feel they have the bulk of what they seek, in that the community, as a whole, feels they were slighted in a major way. Quite a number of people took Ammon's and Pete's experiences up there to be a pretty good show of what the route was made of. Most people took their word as good, that the route is not over-bolted, nor that there were any bathook holes on either of the crux pitches (1&2).
Others chose to ignore Pete, and rehash a bunch of old, not-related to climbing crap to discount his word. They THEN tried to paint Ammon in a bad/incompetent light to reinforce their opinions (of themselves, more than anything). Going so far as to tell Ammon to "Sack up". Really laughable, if you ask me.
I'm not sure what the so-called challenge would accomplish. I'm really not sure what Mark or Richard would have to prove to anyone at this point. They're both pretty proud of their accomplishments, to date. They are both pretty satisfied in their ability to climb hard aid. I think most people agree that they've been really forthright in their endeavors to explain to people *exactly* what they did on this route. More than anything, I'm certain they both see themselves as good men who both have accomplishments far superior to any stupid route on some silly rock in Yosemite. Certainly, far superior to anything that a group of guys in their 20's thought was important at the time.
Regardless, it's simply a matter of time before the route sees a repeat. It won't matter, however. It won't change anything. No matter who it is that repeats the route. No matter how fast/slow they do it, no matter if there is a news crew in-tow with professional cameras recording every inch of the way. The same players will remain entrenched on both sides of the front, refusing to budge. Only when people move past this whole affair, personally & internally, will this whole thing fade to where it belongs.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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I've already dealt with you, your name calling and baseless threats in the other thread, tough guy. Laid it out really simple for you, as I could see your problems with comprehension. Try hooked on phonics if it was too fast/confusing for you. Since you couldn't sack up and answer to it there, maybe it's you who should piss off. Just a bag of hot air.
Whatever though, new year and all. I'm not going to waste my time with you or this thread anymore, Dimitri. As far as I'm concerned, you can rot in your own personal hell. Have fun.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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The tag line for the movie could be "Big Walls. Bigger Egos!" Not that there is anything wrong with having a big ego.
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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You just gotta love the whole concept of the shootout at the El Cap Corral. Isn't Jolly Roger sort of a hardman trade route these days? Wouldn't it be more appropriate to have Mark solo Turning Point (FA Grossman solo) and Steve could have a partner on WoS since it was put up that way? Not that it serves any point aside from some made-for-tv drama, though come to think of it there could be some profit for those willing to wager on the outcome. Werner could hold the bets, isn't he the most unimpeachable and tight lipped of this whole motley crew? Mimi and Graniteclimber could both lob water balloons at their respective enemies for a little American Gladiator stylee.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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DIE THREAD DIE!!!
ok, well maybe it won't ever go away-
so lemme get caught up w/ everything-
help me get all this straight:
meaty is a rope crapper
randy is a liar
grossman is a chickensh#t
duece has had it w/ all of this
werner thinks we are all foolish
pedro wants all the men on this site to know that he too has luscious DSL, and also that his fellow christian climbers are righteous (or aat least as much so as he is...?)
radical wants a 3rd hand piece of ass twice removed
lois of course, has another long winded opinion (w/ no foundation whatsoever)
judy is quitting the CHP to get the SA (if only someone will lend him a chisel and some hooks)
mimi was in on it from the start, is somehow to blame for everything, and may in fact be a man, except that werner dated her in high school
none of these people that you never heard of before was in any way encouraged by the principals to bump this thread or argue any particular point there in
oh yeah, and btw, richard and mark have now been publicly declared to have been exonerated, except for the fact that-
1) despite being willing to stand there for hours, high-up in their aiders, on sketchy hooks, and frequently taking huge slabby whippers, still they couldn't hook through certain sections and had to chisel, but rather than drill a hole that another climber could find and use (but would further inflate the 'hole count'), they only just chiseled a little ("so you really can't tell even if you look"), and so it stands to reason that nobody can or will follow WoS unless they too are willing to regularly reach for some sort of chisel, which may be just as much of a disincentive as any other single factor to all the world's other aid climbers (who have, IMO, collectively passed judgement upon WoS by not repeating it in all these years). whether that is because of the need to enhance hook placements, the choice of a featureless and slabby line void of all natural protection, the difficulty of the climbing itself, the likelyhood of long falls that are generally not "safe" (like falls on overhanging routes often are), the time (apparently) required for an ascent, or the history associated w/ the route, it doesn't really matter. the route speaks for itself, and it does not get climbed; we can banter forever, but that is the truth, that is what remains.
[ seriously- there are plenty of climbers out there who are into scary runout climbing, and most of them do not participate on this forum or any other. this route obviously does not appeal to them. period. ]
2) for all the glory that these guys give to GOD, they are full of PRIDE. just as they were when the rolled into YV back in the day and decided they would go do the hardest route on the planet before getting to know anyone, or before getting a taste of the routes already there and learning what makes a good big wall route a good big wall route. (what if every big wall route that went up was put up by 1st time big wall climbers? sheesh, and seriously, WHO WOULD DO THAT, then or now, and why? i'll tell you who, climbers w/ PRIDE, or who have a need to prove something.) and, as nice as they often are, as competent as they may have been, as unfortunate as it was that they were treated poo(r)-ly, most of their posts here are also full of PRIDE.
where is the introspection?
what has all this taught them, other than what it feels like to be persecuted?
(kinda like, eh-hem? hmmm...)
perhaps i missed it in all of the billions of posts across ump-teen PoS WoS threads, but where was the post where they talked about what they could have done differently? or about how they could have made a greater effort to embrace the community? if they could learn how to micro-hook unchiseled el cap granite by aid-bouldering, why couldn't they have gone aid bouldering w/ the "locals"? maybe they are understandably bitter from being "victimized" and whatnot, but i don't see (again, maybe i missed it?) where they ever have looked back and publicly asked themselves if they could have possibly done anything differently and ended up w/ a different result, different memories, and a different legacy. i think if i had seen that, i would end up feeling fifferently about all of this, but i have not seen anything like that, just finger-pointing and "woe is me" or "you can't even do my route" rants, seperated by some warm comraderie w/ those who agree w/ them or support them.
sorry if that sounds mean, i even kinda feel mean writing it, but i am just being honest about what i think of all of this.
i'll accept that ya'll are/were fine climbers w/ huge balls. so what? i have met plenty of those, and there are far more that i have never met. you put up a line right by the road, right there on el cap, that nobody has ever actually gone back and repeated, and in your minds (or at least in your posts on ST that i recall), you are in no way responsible for that legacy. if people have bailed, they just were not your equal, simple as that. if people have looked at your route but climbed elsewhere, they were clearly too afraid of your bold climb. if steeper climbs on el cap that employ similar hole counts to connect features see regular traffic, that does not not reflect upon what you left behind for others to follow, it simply means that others have tainted your legacy and that of WoS by smearing you unfairly.
in your narrative, on your 1st attempt ever (and after climbing in a quarry and doing some aid-bouldering for practice), you were the best, the baddest, and the boldest of all time. well i'd sure like to buy a bottle of that, if you ever decide to sell it.
i don't know what more there is to say, as everyone (including YOU) is pretty well dug in.
so from a post above:
"i really don't see why this debate needs to continue."
Concur. What do you say we "agree to disagree" and leave it at that?
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Brokeback Captain - Two Boys turn into Men as they nail and drill virgin rock.
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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i am just being honest about what i think of all of this.
Well, well. I guess it's true what they say about opinions being like as#@&%es, Matt. Everybody has one, and they all stink. Are you done waving yours around, now?
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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Is Winds of Change the same thing as Wings of Steel?
If I rap the lower pitches of WOS, can I comment about how badass the route is?
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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dweeb- if these threads are not about people's opinions, what are they about?
SINCE EVERY POST YOU HAVE EVER MADE has been in 2 WoS threads, i guess we can assume you'd like it if they were just about YOUR opinion? thanks, but no thanks.
meat- you're a crapper, but randy is a liar (lying about you crapping), so you see how there is balance? chill the f*#k out man. at least you didn't get called a chickenshit! let's hope grossman appreciates sarcasm more than you do...
EDIT
(between this post and the next, there lies a significant sarchasm)
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Well, Matt, that's quite a steaming pile you've laid on the thread. Sort of a virtual recreation of an earlier miscreation. What does sashaying with the locals or doing previous routes have to do with putting up FA's? Nothing whatsoever in my book. What big walls did the first big wall climbers climb before they did their first big wall? And who did they sashay with prior to doing it?
At least when you crap or post it isn't ballslessly anonymous like the rope deed or "meaty's" pithy posts.
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Oh, I don't disagree with you for a moment, Matt. Every post I've made here is based on my own opinion. Unlike you though, I don't dress up my spout as some kind of plead for restraint and closure on the part of everybody else. You of all people want to talk about hypocrisy?! This thread WAS dying until you bumped it with your supposed plead that we drop the issue. On your part this was nothing more than a sorry attempt to give us your final spew dressed up as a request for us to let it go. Don't for a damn moment pretend it's anything otherwise. You DON'T know Mark. You DON'T know Richard. You DON'T know what the hell you're talking about. You of all people should be shutting up and letting go right now. It's surprising that you can't, given that you of all people involved have no vested interest in this entire matter. Except... perhaps... pride?
Hm.
Meaty - Don't hold back, tell us what you REALLY think.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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And who you really are...
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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What is the story of the woman getting sucker punched?
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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Seemed to me that Matt just provided a condensed version of the slanderous conclusions to be found in this (and other) threads, not that it was necessarily his opinion.
The bit about the WoS lads and Pride seemed like his opinion though, and a reasonable assertion to boot.
I didn't think Meaty was particularly anonymous, didn't it get posted that he was Dimitri Barton? (apologies if I've got that wrong) Seems like a lot of the principals in this dustup are pretty known characters, though it's entirely possible there are some Battenesque puppets in play as well.
Me, I'm strictly peanut gallery, and yes, people do indeed call me Off out in the flesh and blood universe too.
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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"Well, Matt, that's quite a steaming pile you've laid on the thread."
Don't cut yourself short Healy. Havent you dominated quite a few steamers in here as well?
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Dude, that's fuçked up...
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Damm I wish this thread would die!!!!!!
Please no more Wings of Steel!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
http://www.britneyspears.com/
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Definitely in the nose of the beholder atchafalaya - feel free to point out any you found malodorous or otherwise laying on a rank foundation of ranting.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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healyje- i laid it on purpose
dweebie-
re: "This thread WAS dying until you bumped it with your supposed plead that we drop the issue"
bull, it was dying 100 posts ago too, it will go on forever, only to be reborn later. the only solution is to make it suck, and make it suck for everyone, so nobody will revive it anymore!
judy- ain't pride one of those 7 deadly sins? that's the relevance, in this case, just as it's been relevant in the past when you've advocated for the slaughter of millions...
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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re:What does sashaying with the locals or doing previous routes have to do with putting up FA's? Nothing whatsoever in my book. What big walls did the first big wall climbers climb before they did their first big wall? And who did they sashay with prior to doing it? "
well let's see, who did the 1st big wall and how did he do it?
should everyone be up on el cap and every other cliff w/ dolt carts?
or should practices evolve and improve?
are all ethics individual, and are all individuals responsibe to no other, in every case?
or do some reach concencus, and then somehow encourage, instruct, or even lean on others to conform?
if you ever go off and discover some undiscovered cragg, well good for you and have at it, i guess you can then develop it however you like, but you'd better believe that if you are putting up new routes in ANY area with any sort of established traditional ethic (let alone the grandfather of traditional ethics), you'd better be paying some attention to what the locals there find acceptable. i don't care if you sashay or not, but your above post is RIDICULOUS. robbins may have changed his mind on his way up WEML, but he went up there to erase the route, which was but an extreme example of a common and well established practice. there is a reason that we se sport areas and trad areas, and that reason isn't because nobody cares what the locals think...
(what a dumb f*#king post, and while calling MY post a pile? at least i was 1/2-way trolling as many as i could in one shot! maybe i should pass you something to wipe with?)
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Watusi
Social climber
Newport, OR
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Yeah, Yeah, Yeah!! COOL!
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Behold meaty, poster child for all that is right about an ignore button.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Meaty, I had vowed to not respond to any more CLIMBING talk on this thread, but I do think I can make a positive contribution to this thread having nothing to do with the climbing discussion.
You wrote: "Get a clue you f*#ktards, your full of sh#t." Actually, I think you meant to say, "... you're full of sh#t."
It's a common mistake. Your welcome in advance.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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It sounds like a Freudian Slip, not a mistake. When one can't deny anymore, they chastise unrespectfully to sound convincing. True colors are shining through on this saga.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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"...but you'd better believe that if you are putting up new routes in ANY area with any sort of established traditional ethic (let alone the grandfather of traditional ethics), you'd better be paying some attention to what the locals there find acceptable."
I get out to climb rocks, not socialize or check-in, and couldn't give a rats ass about what people think when I put up a route. I don't do it for them and don't give a f*#k where it's at - I really failed Hero Worship 101 in that respect. And my ethics? I'll them stack against anyone's here and from what I heard in Ammon's report the only problems with WoS were strictly cultural. And it's still all there in the rock unless, god forbid, the rain has washed the evidence of their atrocities away - and if that's the case, all the routes you folks have put up there over the years should be so blessed with such a convenient rinse.
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Magnum
Boulder climber
fresno, ca
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"MEATY" is a little bitch for deleting his previous posts.
nuff said.
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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C'mon Joseph, you may give a rats ass what people say about how you put up a route, but you've got plenty to say about how others put up their routes.
Whoa, Meaty did delete his posts, that's kind of weird.
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Meaty
climber
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dude if you want to f*#k my ass just say so faggot. Magnum
Oh, so your ass is bleeding, eh tough guy? Piss off Magnum and go back to your circle jerk with Randy and PTPP and the rest of you assf*#ks.
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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This thread is "older" than everyone involved combined!!!
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Magnum
Boulder climber
fresno, ca
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Dude, dont be a puto man.
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Meaty
climber
|
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Meaty- everybody who matters to you knows the route is blemished. Let it go and find stuff to smile about. it ain't here....
Yeah, I know that, I am being accused of shitting on the ropes of these two chumps and have tried to defend myself. Who the f*#k cares about this climb? Just a group of ignorant fools. But their pals haven't heard the end of this.
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WBraun
climber
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Meaty ain't the one so back off.
None of you know who the real shitter is anyways. I met the real shitter again many years later and I can attest that he was a changed person.
He developed some physical disabilities to his body.
There's a lot more, but this isn't the time and place.
You all need to go home and heal, let life go on ........
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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One of Meaty's deleted posts:
WoS / PTPP, part XXVI (continued from XXV ) Jan 2, 2008, 08:49pm PST
Author:
Meaty
climber
From:
"I think we're done now." from August 10 2006, posted by that moron Randy Wenzel
How many times have you been "done" you f*#king moron? Well over a year ago you made that post, you're a complete jackass and you have only begun to hear the slander you fool. Again, you have absolutely no clue who sh#t on those ropes but you spew lies and innuendo.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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"C'mon Joseph, you may give a rats ass what people say about how you put up a route, but you've got plenty to say about how others put up their routes."
Yeah, Off, no doubt about it - I have an o/c thing about folks damaging rock willy-nilly, and for what? And given I am out at the far end of that bell curve, so far I haven't heard a shred of evidence, from the folks who've bothered to look, that these guys chiseled, drilled, or bolted the line in any way beyond the standards of the day. Quite the contrary, sounds like they 'enhanced' it less than most of you guys would have on the same line of travel.
The only argument I've heard with a remote claim to merit is whether such lines should be climbed at all and I'd say a couple of guys from Looking Glass pretty much baked that one - unless of course you think they're light in NC.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Maybe only one person defecated directly onto their gear while it was at the base of the route, but according to Madbolter1's web site, "Once we finally got on the route again, teams of climbers ascended the nearby Aquarian Wall route so that they could get above us to "bomb" us with trash and bags filled with human defecation."
If this is correct, there is more then on shitter.
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Mimi
climber
|
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And flying monkeys blacked out the sun.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
|
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There is always a "class clown" doing stupid stuff, and every time it happens, the "class comedian(s)" is/are there laughing and giving kudos, knowing it was their idea.
From an outsider's view, it seems that their is more than 1 "shiter"
The defacator is not the only guilty party. The word is abettor, and I would imagine that there are more of these than has been revealed/ presented.
Cards on the table, boys?
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WBraun
climber
|
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graniteclimber
Give it a rest dude. Back in those days it was common practice for just about everyone to throw their sh'it bags off the wall and their trash to be picked up and cleaned at the base after their ascent.
You're now the shitter, stiring up more sh'it.
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Da_Dweeb
climber
|
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And flying monkeys blacked out the sun.
Then we will climb in the shade.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
|
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re:"And given I am out at the far end of that bell curve, so far I haven't heard a shred of evidence from the folks who've bothered to look that these guys chiseled, drilled, or bolted the line in any way beyond the standards of the day. Quite the contrary, sounds like they 'enhanced' it less than most of you guys would have on the same line of travel."
so then, just cause i am still trying to keep all of this straight, in your humble opinion, your point of view in 2008 is somehow more important or more enlightened than that of the people who actually were there at the time?
sorry pal, i am calling bullsh#t.
right or wrong, you cannot rewrite history 20+ years later.
resource protection is a passionate business, not a logical one, and by all acounts that was all the more so back in the era in question.
were you there?
are you just basing all of what you say on how you now feel about such things?
i am simply saying that doing so is invalid.
if you don't see that, well...
maybe as was suggested 200 posts ago, we can just agree to disagree.
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Mimi
climber
|
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Give them a light and they'll follow it anywhere...
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
|
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Deleting his posts was nothing new. I mean, he deleted the post wherein he said who he was. Typical. It's old, it's tired. Meaty's old, I'm tired. I'm not Mark or Richard... Not nearly as level-headed when it comes to punks, nor as kind and forgiving.
Regardless of whether or not he was really there, Dimitri has shown that he's a shitter, regardless of when and where it happened. Spewing Internet tough guy syndrome, over and over... Veiled threats, etc. All talk, all hot air. Time to put up or shut up and quit trying to hide, you little bitch. Eventually, someone is gonna call his bluff and go shove their foot in his geriatric ass and push his teeth through the back of his head. That's the way it works with guys who don't know how to shut up when they're ahead.
`Nuff said there. Back to drinking some wine and having a good time.
And, Matt, you forgot about Dimitri's very first posts on ST, wherein he also called Bachar a liar and pathetic. Interesting.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
|
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so randy, you now are in the company of one mr. johnny bachar, you could do worse!
i am actually laughing out loud at meaty's posts as i read this, seems so out of left field. i especially like where he was getting mad at me for including him in a satirical summary.
(does prozac have a website where you can get a free sample for a guy like that? just a thought:)
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
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"so then, just cause i am still trying to keep all of this straight, in your humble opinion, your point of view in 2008 is somehow more important or more enlightened than that of the people who actually were there at the time?"
Normally I'd wait for 300, but what the hell...
I'm going strictly by what people who have [recently] been on the route have said about it, versus the tired ocean of bullshit by folks who - then or now - have never been on it. If I ever do manage to make it down I'll be counting myself in that group regardless of how far I make it up the damn thing. It doesn't matter who you are, if you haven't actually been on the line, it's all [dubious] hearsay.
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Da_Dweeb
climber
|
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Isn't it funny, too, that for someone who talks about everyone's need to let go and give it a rest, Wbraun just can't seem to help himself from sounding off? As memory serves, each time this topic comes back up he's posting about it all before anyone involved with WoS even has the chance. Doot dee doot dee doo, WoS? Oh boy! Let’s spew inane drivel like “All this WOS steel over hyped bullshit will remain for people with no real clue about what climbing is about. They want to remain in their private little world of controversy and self bias.” Now you want to come back and blather on about “healing” and letting go? Maybe you need to practice some detachment yourself.
To embrace a cause, to grow fond or spiteful is to lose one’s balance, after which no action can be trusted.
Also, STFU Matt. Nobody cares what you have to say.
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Da_Dweeb
climber
|
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Give them a light and they'll follow it anywhere...
Set them alight, and they’ll be warm for the rest of their life.
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Da_Dweeb
climber
|
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300 posts?
This is blasphemy. This is madness!
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
|
|
"Isn't it funny, too, that for someone who talks about everyone's need to let go and give it a rest, Wbraun just can't seem to help himself from sounding off? As memory serves, each time this topic comes back up he's posting about it all before anyone involved with WoS even has the chance. Doot dee doot dee doo, WoS? Oh boy! Let’s spew inane drivel like “All this WOS steel over hyped bullshit will remain for people with no real clue about what climbing is about. They want to remain in their private little world of controversy and self bias.” Now you want to come back and blather on about “healing” and letting go? Maybe you need to practice some detachment yourself."
I've wondered about that myself.
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WBraun
climber
|
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There's 2 topics here dweeb WOS and slander.
Be my guest if you want to keep the slander going.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
|
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Werner: "Back in those days it was common practice for just about everyone to throw their sh'it bags off the wall and their trash to be picked up and cleaned at the base after their ascent."
Was it also common practice to climb up over another team just to throw their sh'it bags down on top of them?
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WBraun
climber
|
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You are speculating ....
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Da_Dweeb
climber
|
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Be my guest if you want to keep the slander going.
If slander is the status quo, why go up against it, eh Braun? Now there's something you'd know about.
Sings we a song of wolves, who smell fear and slay the coward.
Sings we a song of men, who smell gold and slay their brother.
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Da_Dweeb
climber
|
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sounds like voodoo
Who doo? You doo?
Edit: This post was based on Kofi's original unedited post which read the above. Now that said post has been edited to read "Mythology" instead of voodoo, this reply is going to be significantly less fun, on account of there are no words that rhyme with "mythology". We now return you to your regularly scheduled soup and salad.
Edit to Edit: We apologize most sincerely to any persons who were in any way offended by the above edit. This was owing to an administrative error and will not be repeated.
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WBraun
climber
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Dweeb
If you are questioning that means you don't know.
Therefore, you are just another mental speculator who hasn't a clue.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
|
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"You are speculating ...."
So you are saying that nobody bombed them with sh#t bags and then bragged about it? You think they either made this up or were mistaken?
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Da_Dweeb
climber
|
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Only those who acknowledge they don't know are truly wise.
Are you truly wise, Braun?
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Magnum
Boulder climber
fresno, ca
|
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So, guys, I'm having a bit of an internal debate with myself going on right now...I'm hungry...and am torn...
shall i have soup? or salad?
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Soup. Salad is a route that will deface your dinner table with its vegetable matter and at the same time ruin your healthy lifestyle, especially with its propensity to use oil and dressings to mask its lack of style and bland taste. 1000 Calories to Flavor we used to call it, back in the day.
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Magnum
Boulder climber
fresno, ca
|
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soup it is then! :)
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
|
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Speaking of salad..... I think people who have a fascination with fecal matter are probably emotionally related to those who enjoy tossing salad. Just an observation. I mean there are people here who I'm *convinced* want to eat some ass! Hopefully they're not into tossing soup though! Yikes! hahahaha
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Magnum
Boulder climber
fresno, ca
|
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*chuckles*
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Lost Arrow
Trad climber
The North Ridge of the San Fernando
|
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On Sea of Dreams Bridwell enhanced some hook placements.
What a lightweight.
Lost
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cintune
climber
Penn's Woods
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WoS/PTSD, more like.
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
|
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Oh, now you guys are going too far! I've met Salad, went to a Woodson Shindig party at his house, and I'm telling you he's a righteous dude. C'mon, can't we at least agree to no more sh#t talking about Salad?
Uhm, Joseph, can I quote you the next time Infinite Bliss comes up at that other place?
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Meanwhile, forgoten, 'Team wings' has slipped away to do something productive, as the whining and bickering continues without them.
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Wrathchild
Big Wall climber
Satan's testicles
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|
Hmm, posts deleted...
Other people reposting what was deleted, in defiance or revisionism...
How friggin' apropos to the topic at hand.
The camps are divided. There will never be any reconcilliation.
The irony for me is that all the people I respect are on one side, and all the people I don't are on the other.
And Healyje, I predict you won't get past the third move.
It is pretty obvious who some of these "new" posters are.
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TwistedCrank
climber
Ideeho
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salad
climber
San Diego
|
|
off, thanks for looking out for me. i was just about to create my 'farewell supertopo' post. guess ill stick around fer a while.
speaking of fecal... i had hot pot for new years eve dinner. boiled lamb, cabbage, tofu, lots of different mushrooms, fish balls, garlic...a dozen pale ales.
my new years day creation would have made any shitbag tosser proud and would have motivated anyone of any religon to get movin and top out..even on Sabbath.
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
|
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That's a gorgeous shot Jody.
No problems Salad, and no need to say goodbye, see ya later is usually more accurate anyway.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
|
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It looks like they had to Kill a wonderful tiger because it ate some idiot kids. Looks like the tiger had the last laugh, until the coward cops had to shoot the animal.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
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Off, absolutely - the difference, and the reason I make such a statement in the first place - is you won't find me leaving a 20 pitch bolt ladder anywhere. That is the whole LNT ideal when one strives in that direction or with that predilection. It's the basis of not caring what folks think of my routes. Some were uprated, bolted and claimed as FA's ten years after the fact exactly because of it - which was all totally cool minus the bolting part. Again, I guessing from Ammon's comments the WoS team treaded lighter on that line of travel than most of the Valley regulars of the day would have and that really only leaves the "you shouldn't climb there" argument with any air at all.
Wrathchild: "And Healyje, I predict you won't get past the third move."
Aid and hooking maestro that I am, I'd be fine with that as I'll literally be taking them one at a time. And, given I'll be swapping my glasses, reading glasses, and magnifying visor to search for traces of their enhanced atrocities, the third move is sounding pretty damn ambitious. But then, that will still be three more moves than everyone who "was there" and still spewing has done.
Wait, what am I saying? No, damn it - I'll be a tiger and tear it up until I'm shot off the route by the zookeepers and route police...
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
|
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The bolt police, they live inside of camp 4.
The bolt police, they say they climb so hard core.
The bolt police, theyre coming to bounce test me, oh no.
You know that talk is cheap, and those rumors aint nice.
And when I fall asleep our route won't survive the night, the spite.
cause theyre waiting for me.
Theyre looking for me.
Every single night they're dashing all my hopes.
And shitting on my ropes
The bolt police, they live inside of camp 4.
(live inside of camp 4.)
The bolt police, they come to me at El Cap.
(come to me at El Cap.)
The bolt police, theyre coming to bounce test me, oh no.
I try to sleep, theyre wide awake, they wont leave me alone.
They dont get paid to climb aquarian wall, or let me alone.
They drop sh#t on me, I try to hide, they wont let me alone.
They persecute me, theyre the judge and jury all in one.
cause theyre waiting for me.
Theyre looking for me.
Every single night they're dashing all my hopes.
And shitting on my ropes
The bolt police, they live inside of camp 4.
The bolt police, they say they climb so hard core.
The bolt police, theyre coming to bounce test me, oh no.
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Meaty
climber
|
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Deleting his posts was nothing new. I mean, he deleted the post wherein he said who he was. Typical. It's old, it's tired. Meaty's old, I'm tired. I'm not Mark or Richard... Not nearly as level-headed when it comes to punks, nor as kind and forgiving.
Regardless of whether or not he was really there, Dimitri has shown that he's a shitter, regardless of when and where it happened. Spewing Internet tough guy syndrome, over and over... Veiled threats, etc. All talk, all hot air. Time to put up or shut up and quit trying to hide, you little bitch. Eventually, someone is gonna call his bluff and go shove their foot in his geriatric ass and push his teeth through the back of his head. That's the way it works with guys who don't know how to shut up when they're ahead.
`Nuff said there. Back to drinking some wine and having a good time.
And, Matt, you forgot about Dimitri's very first posts on ST, wherein he also called Bachar a liar and pathetic. Interesting. Randy "putz" Wenzel
__
Talk about veiled threats! Advocating violence is something I also didn't do you jackass. Again, what part of me not having anything to do with this event does your feeble little brain NOT understand, did you read the post from Werner you c*#ks@cker?? And yeah I am proud to come to the defense of Wolfy after Bacher stomped on his grave with lies and innuendo. Piss off Randy Wenzel.
One more time, you posted slander and stated without a doubt I shat on those ropes. It should be clear for anyone with a brain that I did not do so. When I defended myself you just continued to spew blather about a subject you know nothing about and now you're calling for violence against me, you're a pathetic bastard Randy.
Is that the way it works Randy, advocating violence is way over the edge and you should be more careful what you post you ignorant jackass.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
|
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Let's set the record straight again, Dimitri (No reason for folks to have to cross reference threads). And, as amusing as it has become for several people in these threads to be able to push your buttons so easily, it's probably the last time for me. Seriously, what a f*#king waste of time.
As I stated prior, I simply posted what others said to me, intending to be done with the whole mess and let those still interested sort it out. If the info was wrong, so be it. At this point, I honestly don't care if the information given to me was incorrect or not. Had you not been a prick of the first order in your response, maybe you'd have gotten a different sort of reply. Maybe you *so* affected some other folks in the past, with your irresistible charm, that they took an opportunity to cause you some discomfort/misfortune. Kinda like what you've run into in this particular thread.
Funny thing is, it's not even like anyone made a point of saying that you were the shitter. One case, in particular, it was mentioned in passing, in a rather matter of fact way. "Yeah, I was there, on SAR, when that went down and Dimitri sh#t on the ropes...." I didn't even ask this person who it was that sh#t on the ropes. I simply asked if they knew anything about it. I DO find it interesting just HOW upset you got when you jumped to the conclusion it was you; sending me your pathetic, incredibly sophisticated (not) email and then starting in here. I'm sure there are more "dimitri's" in the world. You took it upon yourself to assume it was you.
However, your incredibly childish responses, the name calling, seething anger, etc. are really going to get you nowhere, but where it's gotten you now; no one really gives a sh#t what you have to say. Least of all me, who may or may not have gotten wrong info. Sad and unfortunate. You pretty much come off with all of the intelligence and class of a skinhead at a racial rally trying to "prove" your "points". Simply low class and about as dumb as a box full of hair. For convincing everyone that you're a first class jackass, congrats. Job well done.
In all of this, I simply don't understand your attempt to try to hide your identity by erasing your post wherein you reveal your name. Suddenly you don't want to be Dimitri Barton, or what?
And not really so much a veiled threat, on my part (not the time nor the inclination to be bothered), so much as me looking forward to when you finally piss someone off in person with the behavior you've displayed here. But then you probably don't act this way in person, do you. Your type never does.
Adios
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Meaty
climber
|
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Suddenly you don't want to be Dimitri Barton, or what? Randy Putz Wenzel
Huh?? Dream on sacklicker. My name is all over the thread!!LOL LOL!!
Funny thing is, it's not even like anyone made a point of saying that you were the shitter. One case, in particular, it was mentioned in passing, in a rather matter of fact way. "Yeah, I was there, on SAR, when that went down and Dimitri sh#t on the ropes...." I didn't even ask this person who it was that sh#t on the ropes. I simply asked if they knew anything about it. Randy putz Wenzel
See, there you go again, who said that? You're such a coward I already know you will never say because you're lying. Piss off and to advocate violence towards me is beyond pathetic and you know it, you should be banned from posting here!
Post lies and innuendo and it shouldn't be any wonder why you get some vitriol back from me, get a clue you fool!
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
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I am rather enjoying the lovely photos Jody has been posting. Tranquil, soothing, scenic, a reminder of why most of us climb rocks and mountains.
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Fluoride
Trad climber
Hollywood, CA
|
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Gorgeous pic jody, where is that (the 8:58p pic above)?
But why does the guy have his fishing line pointed to the shore, in about 4 inches of water. Is he fishing for minnows? :)
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Meaty
climber
|
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I am rather enjoying the lovely photos Jody has been posting. Tranquil, soothing, scenic, a reminder of why most of us climb rocks and mountains.
Yes, and I will try to let this thread die but that putz Wenzel just keeps on drooling lies and innuendo. Yes, very nice photography!
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Meaty
climber
|
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I wish that putz Wetzel would post his images...they beat mine to a pulp. Jody
Yeah, his great photography must make him a fine human being. He said he was done here, but he's been saying that for well over a year and he still drools his ignorance.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
|
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Anyone here ever climb Squaretop? I always kinda wanted to, never got there yet...
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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"See, there you go again, who said that? You're such a coward I already know you will never say because you're lying. "
Is that seriously the best you can do at this point, Dimitri? Seriously ironic, given the topic. You DO understand that word, don't you? I know it's larger/tougher than "putz" "jackass" and "sacklicking cunt"... You know the same things you keep repeating whenever someone says something you don't like. The things you email to me. Maybe the phrase "pot calling the kettle black" would make more sense to you.
But, since you're so smart, why don't you tell all of us why someone who doesn't know you (you're what 15-20 years older than me?), has never heard of you prior (not like you're ever mentioned here or anything, prior to your spew in this thread) would go out of their way to pick some unknown and fabricate something about them? Makes TONS of sense. I'm sure what you say will make as much sense as the rest of what you've said. So, please, by all means....
Honestly, it seems this is the most attention you've ever received. You should be thankful. If nothing else, you're incredibly predictable and I could keep getting you riled into a tantrum for quite a while. Quite amusing, really. No worries though, I'm sure it will wear off eventually.
Maybe I should go delete all of my posts too so that there *is* no "lie", huh? lol!
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
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Apparently one of the side effects of dirt's medication is that it causes stuttuttering.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
|
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~5 (?) miles to the hogsback (haystack?)? I did it with my brother as a trail run about 20 yrs ago. Details are fuzzy.
I guessed, now I'll go look it up, or wait for the answer...
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Meaty
climber
|
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"See, there you go again, who said that? You're such a coward I already know you will never say because you're lying. "
Is that seriously the best you can do at this point, Dimitri? Seriously ironic, given the topic. You DO understand that word, don't you? I know it's larger/tougher than "putz" "jackass" and "sacklicking cunt"... You know the same things you keep repeating whenever someone says something you don't like. The things you email to me. Maybe the phrase "pot calling the kettle black" would make more sense to you.
But, since you're so smart, why don't you tell all of us why someone who doesn't know you (you're what 15-20 years older than me?), has never heard of you prior (not like you're ever mentioned here or anything, prior to your spew in this thread) would go out of their way to pick some unknown and fabricate something about them? Makes TONS of sense. I'm sure what you say will make as much sense as the rest of what you've said. So, please, by all means....
Honestly, it seems this is the most attention you've ever received. You should be thankful. If nothing else, you're incredibly predictable and I could keep getting you riled into a tantrum for quite a while. Quite amusing, really. No worries though, I'm sure it will wear off eventually.
Maybe I should go delete all of my posts too so that there *is* no "lie", huh? lol!
Randy Putz Wenzel
I am not looking for attention, you're why I am posting here. I can't stand this forum because of chumps like you. I sent you one e-mail and you should read it over and over, go crawl back up the as#@&%e you were born out of...................
Once again, you wrote a post that accused me of shitting on those ropes and you just can't seem to understand why I may be upset. You're a great example of why this forum shouldn't exist. You're 15 -20 years younger than me and you've decided to tell me my history by making completely false accusations, it is called slander. You're one ignorant jackass for not being able to grasp that point, I am not thankful one iota for your baseless accusations.
" But, since you're so smart, why don't you tell all of us why someone who doesn't know you (you're what 15-20 years older than me?), has never heard of you prior (not like you're ever mentioned here or anything, prior to your spew in this thread) would go out of their way to pick some unknown and fabricate something about them?" RANDY PUTZ WENZEL
That is a question for you to ask yourself. Why are you still accusing me of something more than a few people here have told you I have nothing to do with.
This forum is so full of revisionist history it should be shut down, you're the prime example you sacklicking, ignorant, c*#ks@cking c#&%. Oh yeah, I forgot putz, sorry.
To be accused by a jerk like you of something that happened 25 years ago that a multitude of people know is just pure lies will not wear off anytime soon. For you to advocate violence towards me and still be able to post here just shows how pathetic this forum is.
You do not have the balls to explain exactly who told you I shat on those rope, instead you just drool away with the same old blather, you're a coward. So once again, who told you I was the one to sh#t on those ropes? You're one sackless putz because I already know you will not answer that simple question.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
|
|
HEY dipsh!t, AKA Meaty, why don't you take a subtle hint and go Fvck yourself?
For someone who can't stand this forum you post an awful lot, and by the way I'm sure the forum can't stand you either.
As for people hinting at violence coming your way, you've made a prodigious effort to encourage those feelings.
You are a nuisance and a pest, plain and simple.
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Meaty
climber
|
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"As for people hinting at violence coming your way, you've made a prodigious effort to encourage those feelings." dirtineye
So you're also advocating violence towards me, PISS OFF! You want this thread to die and you post that garbage! Yeah, this forum sucks and the lies and innuendo are beyond pathetic. Post a lot, no dumbass. Pretty obvious that is not so. Just making an effort to hound that putz Wenzel that has accused me of something I have nothing to do with and refuses to admit he is wrong, maybe if you were to pay attention you might understand! Again, piss off.
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Meaty
climber
|
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Bump for dirtineye! Are you annoyed? I really hope so!
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Meaty
climber
|
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HEY dipsh!t, AKA Meaty, why don't you take a subtle hint and go Fvck yourself?
For someone who can't stand this forum you post an awful lot, and by the way I'm sure the forum can't stand you either.
As for people hinting at violence coming your way, you've made a prodigious effort to encourage those feelings.
You are a nuisance and a pest, plain and simple.
YAWN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Are you annoyed dirtineye?
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Lost Arrow
Trad climber
The North Ridge of the San Fernando
|
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I remember getting to sunnyside when I was about 18 years old. For about a week I bouldered around talking sh#t with locals. Saying things like "I will soon be mayor of Camp 4" and "Bridwell is a pussy with a hook chisel.
A few nights later about 2 am YOSAR pulled me out of my bag naked and spent a few hours bounce testing me.
Lost
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TwistedCrank
climber
Ideeho
|
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Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 01:29:16 +0100 (CET)
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X-PHP-Mail: Fri Jan 4 01:29:16 CET 2008 - /home/www/web26/html/henrik/neo/intern
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Meaty
climber
|
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Bump for dirtineye! Are you annoyed!! lol lol
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
|
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Tick, tick, BOOM! Just like clockwork. lol
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Meaty
climber
|
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Bump for dirtineye!
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Meaty
climber
|
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Meaty, Randy would kick your arse all over the Valley. Jody
And?? f*#k off Jody, for a LE guy your a pathetic bastard as well to advocate violence.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
|
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Funny how Crowley got the boot for being such a 'pest', but other annoying antics are allowed to remain.
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Meaty
climber
|
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Funny how Crowley got the boot for being such a 'pest', but other annoying antics are allowed to remain.
Yeah bluering, but advocating violence is OK? Yeah!
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
|
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Bluering - are you referring to anyone in particular?
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
|
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What a pathetic moron you are meathead.
I didn't advocate violence against you, I said you had done a good job of provoking it. Since I don't delete over half of what I write, like you do, you can go back and check to make sure, dumbass.
Of course, if you had half a brain you'd have seen that, but since you only read want you want to see instead of what's there, I'm not surprised that you get a lot of things wrong.
Yes, you are clearly annoying. It's good you finally realize that. This is the first step towards you going away possibly. the second would be that basically, nobody wants you around. You have exhausted your entertainment value, you ramble, you're foul, and you are repetitive-- like a cuck-coo clock.
On the other hand, major fvckups like you make a great case for an ignore button. SO maybe you should keep on being your disgusting self until we either get an ignore feature, or you get whack-a-moled.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Hardman, isn't it obvious?
Meaty, yes, sometimes violence is completely warranted.
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Meaty
climber
|
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Meaty, yes, sometimes violence is completely warranted. bluering
You're a moron and a complete fool.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
|
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this meaty fella sure is making a stink over next to nothing, maybe he was a rope crapper after all?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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"You're a moron and a complete fool."
That really hurts, Meaty, I'm gonna start crying. Boo-hoo.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Two men enter one man leaves.
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Two men enter one man leaves.
Two men enter one man leaves.
Two men enter one man leaves.
Two men enter one man leaves.
Two men enter one man leaves.
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Two men enter one man leaves.
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Meaty
climber
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Bump for dirtineye! Are you annoyed?
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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paging dimitri-
it seems britany spears has stolen your log-in information for ST
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Meaty
climber
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LOL! Great humor Matt! You've got a career in comedy in your future!! LOL
Do you want to hear who did crap on those ropes? I wouldn't tell your sorry ass and you obviously don't care. I really hope I am annoying you and dirtineye and bluering. Trolling this stupid forum has been fun.
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Meaty
climber
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Bump for dirtineye! I really hope you're annoyed.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Idaho Falls
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Climbing is the greatest of fraternities. If not for the courage, vigor and character of its member beings, then surely for the brotherhood that permeates its transcendant soul.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Meaty = best argument for ignore button ever.
And I'm glad you're having fun meathead, cause it's obvious you don't have many ways to enjoy life or other people. Sad for you that your idea of fun is pissing off everyone under the sun though.
Jody, could you encourage your pal a little more? For the good of humanity.
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screelover
Mountain climber
Canuckistan
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Could we get a couple of community-minded volunteers to take credit for the turds, just to be done with it?
You'd be doing us all a big favour.
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TwistedCrank
climber
Ideeho
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How do you know it was turds? Huh? How do you know it wasn't spackle? Huh? Inquiring minds want to know.
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UncleDoug
Social climber
N. lake Tahoe
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I'd love to see Jody get into it.
And then get fired from the CHP.
We don't need his punk like mentality on the force.
Just here on ST.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Anyone who messes with Jody has to deal with me first, and I'm KNOTT joking!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dimitri, personally, I'm more than willing to take Werner's word you didn't do it. But this:
"To be accused by a jerk like you of something that happened 25 years ago that a multitude of people know is just pure lies will not wear off anytime soon. For you to advocate violence towards me and still be able to post here just shows how pathetic this forum is."
sounds exactly like the WoS Team's plaintive - except for the 'multitude of people' who, in hindsight with inspection, clearly didn't know what they were talking about. In fact, it sounds like you're in a perfect position to empathize with Mark and Richard in the "just pure lies will not wear off anytime soon" department.
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Badwaters
Big Wall climber
Alaska
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Meaty is the shitter
Meaty is the shitter
Meaty is the shitter
Meaty is the shiiter
Meaty is the shitter
Meaty is the shitter
Meaty is the shitter
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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I'd say the one spending their life trying to annoy people is the fvcking putz here.
I have a feeling that sentiment is widespread.
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TwistedCrank
climber
Ideeho
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Hey Dameathead. Is "putz" your favorite word or what?
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Meaty may not be the sh!tter, (like I give a crap about this) but he is definitely a turd in the punchbowl of life.
By choice!
Yeah healyje, a better comparison would be meaty and big pile of buffalo dung. A much better fit, don't you think?
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WBraun
climber
|
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I'm laughing my ass off.
This thread sure got funny fast.
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WBraun
climber
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It's dumping rain on the Valley floor and snowing at the rim.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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I don't know, his [indignant] complaint appears to be identical to Mark and Richards - slanderous lies by folks who didn't bother to inform themselves of the truth casting an enduring, but erronous stain on his reputation. I'd say this falls under the heading of 'can dish it out, but can't really take it' - irony works in strange and mysterious ways...
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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So far, Sacramento Airport is closed, an 18 wheeler was blown on it's side on the San Rafael bridge, so the bridge is closed right now, Guerneville has gotten 5" of rain. The Russian River is at 16', normally at 5'. Huge sections of 101 are closed. Winds are gusting at 78mph on the Golden Gate...
Gonna get crazy out there. Everyone be safe!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sacramentonians - mount your dikes!
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scuffy b
climber
Stump with a backrest
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Well done, Meaty. I eagerly await Part II.
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Badwaters
Big Wall climber
Alaska
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Meaty is the shitter
Meaty is the shitter
Meaty is the shitter
Meaty is the shiiter
Meaty is the shitter
Meaty is the shitter
Meaty is the shitter
Meaty is the shitter
Meaty is the shitter
Meaty is the shitter
Meaty is the shitter
Meaty is the shitter
Meaty is the shitter
Meaty is the shitter
Meaty is the shitter
Meaty is the shitter
Meaty is the shitter
Edit: Bump for all that hate Meaty
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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420!!
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Badwaters
Big Wall climber
Alaska
|
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Meaty is the shitter
Meaty is the shitter
Meaty is the shitter
Meaty is the shiiter
Meaty is the shitter
Meaty is the shitter
Meaty is the shitter
Meaty is the shitter
Meaty is the shitter
Meaty is the shitter
Meaty is the shitter
Meaty is the shitter
Bump for all that hate Meaty
dirtineye is a crybaby
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Did the asylum get internet for christmas or something?
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Badwaters
Big Wall climber
Alaska
|
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Meaty is the shitter
Meaty is the shitter
Meaty is the shitter
Meaty is the shiiter
Meaty is the shitter
Meaty is the shitter
Meaty is the shitter
Meaty is the shitter
Meaty is the shitter
Meaty is the shitter
Meaty is the shitter
Meaty is the shitter
Meaty is the shitter
Meaty is the shitter
Meaty is the shitter
Meaty is the shitter
Meaty is the shitter
dirtineye is a crybaby
Bump for all that hate dirtineye and Meaty
Meaty is the shitter
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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I for one was not surprised the cowards that are YOSAR pulled such a stunt.
Juan
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Badwaters hates me, now I'm really gonna cry.
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Badwaters
Big Wall climber
Alaska
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I for one was not surprised the cowards that are YOSAR pulled such a stunt.
Correct Jaun, cowards
Meaty is the shitter
Meaty is the shitter
Meaty is the shiiter
Meaty is the shitter
Meaty is the shitter
Meaty is the shitter
Meaty is the shitter
Meaty is the shitter
Meaty is the shitter
Meaty is the shitter
Meaty is the shitter
Meaty is the shitter
Meaty is the shitter
Meaty is the shitter
Meaty is the shitter
Meaty is the shitter
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Badwaters
Big Wall climber
Alaska
|
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Juan, get your meds. To call everyone involved in HA SAR a coward is just plain stupid. If you want to call out an individual, be my guest. You are a coward if you call someone who risks their life to save your arse a coward.
HA SAR people have brass stones.
Meaty was on SAR, he is gay and a coward.
Meaty is the shitter
Jody is the gay CHP, I like gay police men. Do you pitch or catch?
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Will someone please call the men in little white coats to come and take badwaters and meaty away?
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Badwaters
Big Wall climber
Alaska
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I like men in white coats. Maybe you could put on a white coat dirtineye and we can go to brokeback bathroom for some meat-me action.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Sorry, I think you've made a mistake.
I'm not a republican.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
|
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Damn, ANOTHER gay republican!
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Badwaters
Big Wall climber
Alaska
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Technically speaking, Meaty has challenged a peace officer to a fight which is a misdemeanor. Think I'll get sworn in today and tool Meaty.
Meaty is the shitter
Meaty wants to screw Jody, he likes gay cops.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Wow! This got crazy, but fast! Yikes! Kinda silly too!
Jody, not sure about barometric readings, but the skies just opened up here. It's currently pouring!
edit: and SAR guys are most definitely NOT cowards! Those guys put their lives on the line each time they go out. It's a rather selfless and thankless job. I, for one am appreciative of the job that Werner and any other SAR personnel (including meaty) does and has done. BadAss!
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
|
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Yeah, I had some association with Badwaters and Bachar Bashing, but tracked it down to a Mission Gorge Bolt Bashing thread that also featured Snooky. Actually, it featured many of the same characters from this thread, and covered much of the same ground in only 145 posts (including massive thread drift) but I resisted the urge to bump it as a partner to this trainwreck.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Not really a train wreck unfortunately. A train wreck has an ending
This is more like a criminal running from the police in a vehicle with the tires shot out. Slow, painful to the ears, but keeps on going.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
|
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Dirt wrote:
This is more like a criminal running from the police in a vehicle with the tires shot out. Slow, painful to the ears, but keeps on going.
Knott for long - and they always get caught in the end (heh heh).
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
|
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Britney Get some f*#king help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
God Bless THE REPUBLICANS - GOD'S SPEED 2008!!!!!!!!!!!!
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cintune
climber
Penn's Woods
|
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"In a conference call, Pentagon spokesman Jerry Lopez admitted that these weren't isolated incidents.
'We think this may be related to the secret alien invasion currently underway across the planet,' Lopez declared.
'On the other hand, it may just be a bunch of idiots,' he added, after a brief pause."
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KP Ariza
climber
SCC
|
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HK=Buchanan=Internet Five 0 (a.k.a. ST forum patrol, ST security guard, ST wannabe cop). Get a "tech" job bro or join the force, patrolling the internet highways has gotta get old eh?
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Chewbongka
climber
|
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Can we get more ass in this thread???
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
|
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Only 448 posts to finally get a good one.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
|
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DK=Ariza=someone who could have simply left us lowly Internet Losers in peace,
yet inexplicably took the time (ie wasted the time) to knott-so graciously remind us...
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
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I think this thread will end up paralleling W's final year in office - another train wreck that's going to go on for years after...
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
|
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"...but seriously, who would believe a 5' 3" tall DV?!?!"
Ha! Can anyone say, "Napoleonic Complex"?
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
|
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ahhh.... fuggetaboutit
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
|
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Alas poor meaty, we hardly knew him.
Did you HAVE To bump this back to the top?
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| Messages 1 - 378 of total 378 in this topic |
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