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bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - May 30, 2006 - 11:59am PT
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I heard about this on the radio several weeks ago so I decided to try it out after a little research. Some Eastern European woman broke the 10,000 meter world record by 30 seconds and was accused of being on steroids. She tested negative and told them she took Cordyceps to help her recovery time after workouts. Sounded interesting. I've been taking it for a couple weeks and I definitely notice some kind of energy boost. It also seems to give me some pretty vivid dreams at night.
Anybody out there tried this stuff? What's the real deal? cheers, jb
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G_Gnome
Social climber
Tendonitis City
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May 30, 2006 - 12:09pm PT
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I heard that it leads you to believe you can solo any 5.12 you want to, but you will die of brain cancer sometime in the next 50 years. I would be really worried John.
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bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - May 30, 2006 - 12:15pm PT
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Ain't gonna' happen... the solo part that is!
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matisse
Trad climber
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May 30, 2006 - 12:23pm PT
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Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2004 Mar;36(3):504-9.
Effects of a commercial herbal-based formula on exercise performance in cyclists.
Earnest CP, Morss GM, Wyatt F, Jordan AN, Colson S, Church TS, Fitzgerald Y, Autrey L, Jurca R, Lucia A.
Center for Human Performance and Nutrition Research, The Cooper Institute Center for Human Performance and Nutrition Research, Dallas, TX 75230, USA. cearnest@cooperinst.org
INTRODUCTION/PURPOSE: We examined the effects of a commercially marketed herbal-based formula purported to increase endurance on oxygen consumption (VO2) in 17 competitive category III/IV amateur cyclists [mean (SEM) age: 31.1 (1.8) yr; height: 178.5 (1.8) cm; weight: 77.1 (1.6) kg]. METHODS: Each cyclist participated in two (pre/post) cycling tests progressing 25 W.4 min(-1) starting at 100 W administered in a randomized, placebo-controlled, double-blind fashion. The second trial was performed 14 d after the ingestion of a manufacturer recommended loading phase (4 d x 6 caps.d(-1)) and a maintenance phase (11 d x 3 caps.d(-1)). Three treatment capsules contained 1000 mg of Cordyceps sinensis (CS-4) and 300 mg Rhodiola rosea root extract as the primary ingredients; 800 mg of other ingredients included calcium pyruvate, sodium phosphate, potassium phosphate, ribose, and adenosine and 200 mcg of chromium. RESULTS: Using a 2 x 2 ANOVA, we observed no significant treatment effect for any between or within group variables including peak VO2 [treatment 4.14 (0.2) L.min(-1); placebo 4.10 (0.2) L.min(-1)], time to exhaustion [treatment 38.47 (1.7) min; placebo 36.95 (1.8) min], peak power output (PO) [treatment 300.00 (12.1) W; placebo 290.63 (12.9) W], or peak heart rate. We also observed no differences for any subpeak exercise variable including the PO eliciting 2 mmol.L(-1) blood lactate (BLa) [treatment 201.00 (18.1) W; placebo 167.50 (19.2) W] and 4 mmol.L(-1) BLa [treatment 235.88 (15.8) W; placebo 244.78 (14.9) W], ventilatory threshold, respiratory compensation point, or Vo2 L.min(-1) gross efficiency at each stage. CONCLUSION: A 2-wk ingestion schema of a commercial herbal-based formula is insufficient to elicit positive changes in cycling performance.
3 others with the same findings on pubmed. I didn't see anything for sprint or anaerobic type performance.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 30, 2006 - 01:23pm PT
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Interesting stuff. Here's a story off the CDC website
"In the jungles of South America, there is another dance between ants and parasites. The parasite is a mushroom. Beneath tropical canopies, spores of Cordyceps, a mushroom, are whipped about on warm equatorial breezes and spun between tree trunks and twisting vines until they land in the spiracles of black ants. Spiracles (holes in the tough exoskeleton of ants) allow ants to breathe. Cordyceps uses the spiracles to get beneath ants’ skin.
Once inside the ants, the fungus attaches to the soft tissues and begins to raise a family. For a few days, everything is fine, but the fungus knows that it will need more than the ants can provide. Soon, deep within the ants, the fungus will achieve sexual maturity, and it will be time to sporulate. Once again the infected ants, driven by the new-found energy of sudden acrophilia, leave the relative safety of the earth, climb atop the grass, clamp their mandibles onto the tips of the green shoots, and hang there.
The fungus then consumes the ants' brains and sprouts through the emptied skulls. Bathed in sunlight, once again, the fungus sporulates. At the grass tops, where the wind blows freely, the spores are quickly spread, sometimes for miles and always to other ants. The fungus has lifted itself from the primordial slime, gathered itself upon the wind, and set off, once more, for a new life. Other varieties of Cordyceps mushrooms parasitize and alter the behavior of caterpillars, mealybugs, and beetles. Fungal madness. Infectious insanity."
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 30, 2006 - 01:46pm PT
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Dang you Bachar for distracting me when I'm supposed to be doing my spring gear marking.
Lots of interesting info in this article
http://alohamedicinals.com/Cordy_Article.pdf
But the kinda sick bit is this:
One of the simplest and most reliable tests used to determine whether a compound can increase energy
output or decrease fatigue is the mouse swim test. In this test, two groups of mice (or rats, or dogs, or
other animals) are used. One group gets the normal diet and the other group a normal diet with the
addition of the test substance, Cordyceps in this case. After a period of time on the test substance, the two
groups of animals are put into a steep-sided container full of water from which they cannot escape, a five-
gallon bucket for example. That way they are forced to swim. The time-to-exhaustion is measured for the
two groups and compared. If the group receiving the test compound swims longer than the group on the
normal diet, then it has been determined that they had increased energy output and/or decreased fatigue
than the other group. Many trials of this nature
have been conducted using Cordyceps and
invariably they show that the use of Cordyceps
significantly increases the time to exhaustion in
the test animals.
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G_Gnome
Social climber
Tendonitis City
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May 30, 2006 - 01:57pm PT
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Why would you believe anything these marketers publish? Seems the diet supplement suppliers are as morally bankrupt as our politicians. In fact, if they didn't own those politicians you would probably not be able to purchase 99% of what they market.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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May 30, 2006 - 02:25pm PT
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matisse and baba:
great stuff!
thanks.
shorty T:
no doubt bro, my wife is a performance athlete and given to all manner of suplementation and i'm right in there with her.
i am circumspect for sure.
those marketers will claim all kinds of unverified woo-woo.
the whole supplementation industry had a chance to be regulated and as a group consumers put it down, perhaps for good reasons, but the outcome is we can get all kinds of stuff at a lower price, but it's presented with all sorts of un-verified purported benefits.
*might be less expensive than otherwise if it had been regulated, but this comes with the risk of injesting substances which potentially deliver zero beneficial outcome*
'nice thread JB.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 30, 2006 - 02:27pm PT
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Personally, I don't take anything these days although I'd be open to trying something that could contribute something healthy and positive.
Who is advocating blind faith? Are you saying all non-prescription substances are bunk? Or just herbs and vitamins? or all drugs? What's the rational criteria to use?
Peace
Karl
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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May 30, 2006 - 02:44pm PT
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i'm not advocating blind faith karl.
(assuming you were replying to my post).
i'm saying i use all kinds of vitamins and herbs and it's not so easy to verify claims.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 30, 2006 - 03:30pm PT
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Naw Buster
I was replying to what I felt was Shortimers blanket statement.
Lots of bunk stuff in the Pharma and Herb fields.
Sometimes in the supplement field it seems they sell a snake oil for a few years that's supposed to cure anything, then it's gone.
On the other hand, I've also heard that even among prescription drugs are have value, they often only work on 40% of the folks they are prescribed for. Naturally, this varies by the drug.
In between, it's pretty darn obvious that certain substances can enhance performance in different ways. The question is: Which ones have healthy side effects rather pesky ones like impotence.
So I'm open minded to this Cordyceps stuff cause the Sherpas eat it and they are bad ass, and a cursory search doesn't indicate danger.
Plus Bachar is pretty damn old and still cranks OK so he might be on to something.
Peace
Karl
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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May 30, 2006 - 03:38pm PT
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Chew coca leaves and lime, like the indians in South America do.
I've heard that works.
Sort of.
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hardman
Trad climber
love the eastern sierras
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May 30, 2006 - 03:52pm PT
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bacher
word has it Cordyceps work better if adminstered in the rectum.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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May 30, 2006 - 04:01pm PT
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So the Bachar brain is going to dissolve like ants?
Dirt, are you stalking me?
Tang Off Man!
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matisse
Trad climber
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May 30, 2006 - 04:19pm PT
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On a related note...
you gotta like the placebo effect. We all too often view it with disgust instead of recognizing that it really exploits aspects of the brain body connection that we don't at all understand.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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May 30, 2006 - 04:51pm PT
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placebo?
no doubt matisse.
oops, in my case maybe too much doubt.
almost none of these vitamins and herbs work for me.
negative placebo effect?
the stand out exception is niacin: i definitely get a capillary flush.
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the Fet
Trad climber
: morF
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May 30, 2006 - 05:24pm PT
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If anyone's going to sell it, it needs a better name.
Cordyceps is also known as Chinese caterpillar fungus.
Who's gonna take Chinese caterpillar fungus? Eww.
Consider Epimedium's other name, Horny Goat Weed. Everyone with a limpy wants that.
So Cordyceps needs a cool name too, like; super lung serum, or pump you upitude.
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matisse
Trad climber
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May 30, 2006 - 05:29pm PT
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Tar,
Although I wasn't commenting on your experience, I didn't articulate my point too well. Let me try again:
Many interventions/drugs/etc that are tested against placebo show an effect on the condition that they are used for, but the problem is that placebo also has a beneficial effect that is of the same magnitude as the thing being tested. Most of us interpret that as the interventions/drugs/etc is not effective, without really considering the placebo side of the equation.
Think about it. You give some one a pill with some type of inactive ingredient like sugar in it, something they ingest every day, and then tell them that this substance is designed to fix your xyz problem or enhance your performance in ABC and it does. I think the placebo effect is fascinating.
But I think it is supposed to work even in skeptics too.
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