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Chris2
Trad climber
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May 21, 2009 - 01:34pm PT
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I read a book by President Carter where he wrote of his frustrations with what he “wanted” to do and what he “could do.” He always had to make concessions in one area, in order to accomplish anything in other areas.
Seems most politicians lose site of this while campaigning.
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dirtbag
climber
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May 21, 2009 - 01:36pm PT
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I'm not sure they lose sight of it. It's just that explaining trade-offs is an uninspiring PITA. You make more friends/votes by promising everything.
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Chaz
Trad climber
Boss Angeles
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May 21, 2009 - 01:51pm PT
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How many people were tortured?
Was this like standard procedure for all *detainees*?
Or was it reserved for wise guys who may have known something?
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dirtbag
climber
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May 21, 2009 - 01:54pm PT
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Or guys who the Bush Admin believed might (erroneously, as it turned out) provide AQ-Saddam links that would justify their bogus war ?
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Chris2
Trad climber
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May 21, 2009 - 01:55pm PT
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I agree. Also there are "flaws" in a democracy.
"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."
Winston Churchill
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Reply - May 21, 2009 - 02:53pm PT
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Radical said . . .
"You are wrong, he no more would follow the ideas of drugged out hippies on the left than he would follow the ideas of ignorant neocons on the right."
You have to be kidding right???
These are not "drugged out hippies" as you suppose (you probably didn't read the article). Those meeting with him are the ACLU, the Constitutional Rights Center, and other prominent Civil Rights groups. They are the reason you and I have any rights left to speak of.
While I'm thiking about it, it is a good time to send a donation to the ACLU . . . I will again. Hopefully you will too.
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Chris2
Trad climber
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May 21, 2009 - 03:05pm PT
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Did Shawn Hannity ever get water boarded? Would love to see that!
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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May 21, 2009 - 03:10pm PT
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Obamma is exactly what how he presented himself in the election, you just chose not to really see who and what he was. He's a politician, he'll do and say what it takes to get votes, and then when he's in office, he'll do and say what he thinks will help his image. He is not, nor never has been a leader. We haven't had a leader in the Whitehouse since Ronald Reagan.
I'm not saying McCain was a good choice either, we only had 2 choices, none of them any good.
The reason world opinion, and especially in the ME is poor on the US isn't about the torture issue. The problem is we haven't taken a kick azz don't F with us stance. We can't and won't be loved by the folks in the ME, that is impossible because our cultures are not combatible. If one ignores this fact, as our leaders have, then we can't be successful.
The only way to have stable relations in that region is to be feared and respected. Our currrent CIC is about the polar aspect of presenting that image of the US.
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Ed Bannister
Mountain climber
Riverside, CA
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May 21, 2009 - 03:10pm PT
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hoped wrong
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Riotch
Trad climber
Kayenta, Arizona
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May 21, 2009 - 03:18pm PT
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You were hoping . . .
He is a member of the Democratic party, which is scarcely any different, in substance, than the Republican party. Hell, they are both funded by the same interests (read corporations).
Why would anyone expect anything different from a mainstream democrat.
The sooner people wake up to the fact that we really have a one party system, that doesn't function democratically, by the way, the better off we'll be.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Reply - May 21, 2009 - 03:18pm PT
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TP,
Couldn't dissagree with you more.
Klimmer
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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May 21, 2009 - 03:27pm PT
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This country was built on hard work, blood sweat and tears. Not hope.
You can ignore facts and truths, but you do so to your own detriment.
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Chris2
Trad climber
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May 21, 2009 - 03:34pm PT
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"Hope is a good thing."
Shawshank Redemption
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Reply - May 22, 2009 - 12:12pm PT
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Well here we go! Obama is loosing his base. It doesn't have to be like this if as a Constitutional Lawyer and Professor he abidded by the Rule of Law. You would think he knows and it would be a no brainer.
Who in the background is forcing his hand? I think we all know. Does Cheney still have his secret assassination squad that only answers to the VP? Me thinks so.
Rachel Maddow: Obama Clashes w/ Activists at WH Meeting - 'No Prosecutions of Anyone in Bush Admin'
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x314893
Rachel Maddow calls out Obama's flowery 'values' bullshit - brilliantly invokes 'Minority Report'
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x315600
I'm very happy with the truth to power that Keith Olberman and Rachel do and say day after day. They are the only true MSM voice out there. We are sooo fortunate to have them.
God protect them.
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noshoesnoshirt
climber
dangling off a wind turbine in a town near you
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May 22, 2009 - 12:19pm PT
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Obama is in fact a politician end ergo a lying shitweasel.
I can't really say I'm surprised at his blatant disregard of the Constitution, only very disturbed and more than a little pissed off.
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John Vawter
Social climber
San Diego
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May 22, 2009 - 01:41pm PT
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I think he's doing a helluva job with the mess he inherited. And he has done nothing that surprised me, so I am a little confused about your disillusionment. He won because Americans wanted someone who would listen to both sides and compromise. They didn’t want a lefty Bush clone. Well, maybe you and Olberman did.
No different than Bush? Nonsense.
He'll definitely get my vote for a second term.
P.S. You wouldn't listen to Limbaugh and Hannity. Why listen to Olberman and Maddow? Do you enjoy righteous indignation?
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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May 22, 2009 - 02:03pm PT
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i walked a mile barefoot in the california desert.
i hoped that my toes wouldn't get dusty.
at the end of my hike i forgot to look at my toes to see if my hope flourished.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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May 22, 2009 - 02:22pm PT
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"How many people were tortured? Was this like standard procedure for all *detainees*?
Or was it reserved for wise guys who may have known something?"---Chaz
If you are only talking about waterboarding, then you are insulting your own intelligence.
DID YOU NOT SEE THE MULTITUDES OF PHOTOGRAPHS DEPICTING THE TREATMENT OF CAPTUREES?
For chrissakes, I would take the water-boarding ANY DAY over every other inhumane acts displayed in the photos.
And bet your @ss that you would too.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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May 22, 2009 - 02:44pm PT
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Thank you John Vawter. You've been among the very few voices of reason in this thread.
I can understand Klimmer's disappointment, but I believe you set yourself up for disappointment if you believed that Obama campaigned on a platform of adopting the "liberal" stance on every issue. That's certainly how the right portrayed him, but he consistently presented himself as someone who would deeply consider the issues and make an appropriate choice given his judgment and the needs of the country. I believe he's doing that now. I may be disappointed in his current position on detainment, not releasing photos, etc., but given his MASSIVE reversals on other Bush era policies I'm inclined to believe he has to have good reasons for doing so.
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