Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Original Post - Sep 28, 2015 - 09:14am PT
|
The recent tragedy of two climbers falling to their deaths in the middle of bailing off the NE face route on Pingora has made me think much more about rapping off routes. It seems likely that the cause of their deaths is related to getting the rope stuck after pulling it and having to climb back up to retreive it. A portion of what Rgold copied and pasted from MP;
As far as anyone has been able to tell (NOLS/Search and Rescue/Coroner, the men were not feeling confident enough to finish the climb. It was about 1-2pm, and they decided they needed to go back down. When they were rappelling the rope seemed to have gotten stuck and Jon went up to get it unstuck. Sometime while either going up to get the rope or right after he got the rope unstuck he fell. The amount of slack in the rope made his fall greater than normal, causing that much more weight on the rope and anchors. All of the ropes and webbing were intact. The cause has been put to safety anchor failure. The rock came away from the face and then men both fell.
Now, my personal experience dealing with this stuff is extremely limited, but I also realize this is something I need to think about and so I'm reaching out to the Supertopo community for commentary on two basic topics;
First, the best option is to avoid getting the rope stuck in the first place. This is not always possible especially on new terrain. Shoot, even in areas that you may know well, some spots are just difficult to deal with. So basically, How do you mimize the potential for getting your rope stuck when conducting a successive series of raps.
Second, if your rope does get stuck, what are good strategies for for getting the thing unstuck while minimizing risk to yourself and your partner.
It seems like this topic only shows up when people ask about epics. And I have not seen this discussed in a preventative sense, so if there is a preexisting thread about this topic let me know.
Thanks in advance,
Chris
|
|
Roots
Mountain climber
Tustin, CA
|
|
|
Sep 28, 2015 - 09:56am PT
|
Chris -
There has actually been plenty written about this topic in how to climb books.
But you'll get better than text books answers in (count down) 3-2-1....
|
|
skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 28, 2015 - 10:07am PT
|
Shoot Roots, you are exactly right. There is a great discussion in my climbing self-rescue book ... the book I haven't opened up much except for on how to excape the belay. Looks like this is the time to 100% dive into it.
|
|
NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
|
|
|
Sep 28, 2015 - 11:06am PT
|
I have gotten the rope stuck many many times on raps. If you are at all adventurous on wandering chossy routes, it is hard to avoid. Even if you bag the ropes and carry with you to avoid tossing, you still have to pull it after a rap. That's where the real problems are.
Strategies:
1. Carry a knife in your chalk bag to cut and salvage what rope you can if the need arises. I (or my partner with me) have had to do this on 4 occasions (2 on the same climb).
2. I like to climb with double ropes to have more raw material to work with for rescue/bail scenarios. But this also increases the chances of ropes getting tangled and stuck.
3. If you have to ascend an unanchored but stuck rope, use a prussick or some other locking mechanism to connect you to the rope and ensure the bottom end is anchored or belayed so you don't slide off the end of the rope if it suddenly comes loose at the top. You may not have enough spare rope to stay connected to a separate strand that is anchored or belayed. If you can, climb the path rather than straight jugging up the rope.
4. Stay alert for delayed rockfall when you pull the rap ropes. Can be many seconds later when you let down your guard.
5. Be careful and methodical and patient. Even if you're tired or dehydrated, don't rush it.
6. Pray!
|
|
donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
|
|
|
Sep 28, 2015 - 11:23am PT
|
Always use an overhand knot even with different diameter ropes, make sure knot is dressed and tails are long enough.
Pull the smaller diameter rope....harder to pull but fatter rope less likely to get hung up.
Don't pray....double blind studies have shown that prayer is not efficacious.
|
|
survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
|
|
|
Sep 28, 2015 - 11:28am PT
|
The best strategy is don't f*#k up.
|
|
crøtch
climber
|
|
|
Sep 28, 2015 - 01:33pm PT
|
Good anchors!
When you rig your rap, consider whether you want to pull right or pull left to avoid obvious rope-sucks below.
First person down tests the pull while the 2nd is still at top anchor.
First person down evaluates for objects that can catch rope and advises 2nd on where to run rope to best avoid them.
2nd person down can re-position the knot below obstacles while on rappel by letting rope slide through only one side of ATC (assumes rope on metal, and enough rope to have uneven ends.)
Sometimes you want to pull smoothly, others you want to give a big yank left, right or out, just before the end goes through the rap ring.
If you have to reascend to free a stuck rope, get a belay with as much rope as you have. Self-belay with prussics or a clove when you can't get a real belay. Climb and french free rather than jug if it makes sense. Place intermediate pro.
Sometimes it's better to do 2 short and clean raps than one long rap.
Ideally, rap stations are protected (roofs, horizontal offset) from rockfall from previous rap.
Good anchors! Worth saying twice.
edit to add:
My partner and I always recite out loud which rope we are pulling ("pull blue") before each person raps, and before pulling.
|
|
HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
|
|
|
Sep 28, 2015 - 01:48pm PT
|
Look back to Accidents in North American Mountaineering. I think three years ago. You can easily search it on the AAC website.
ANAM is doing an article each year on common accident causes. It's no coincidence they started with rappelling.
Just about everything that can go wrong is analyzed in that article and how to avoid it. Anchor failure is one of the leading causes.......
and to what crotch said I'll add:
Take your time! Remember that when the proverbial feces strikes the air propulsion device you really need to slow down and think it out. All of it. Agree on a plan. When in doubt or the unexpected happens, STOP and work the problem again. Do Not Rush It. If you're alone up there, like this poor fellow, be doubly cautious.
|
|
crøtch
climber
|
|
|
Sep 28, 2015 - 02:05pm PT
|
That's death, Burchey. Sit it out If you've got cell reception and bivvy gear. Largo will keep your lady warm back home while Werner mobilizes SAR.
|
|
moacman
Trad climber
Montuckyian Via Canada Eh!
|
|
|
Sep 28, 2015 - 02:41pm PT
|
Listen to what CROTCH says....I will add that when retrieving the cord pull until the weight of the rope starts to pull on its own then give it a little flip outward to clear the rock..,.,.Do not do this in high winds.....
Stevo
|
|
phylp
Trad climber
Upland, CA
|
|
|
Sep 28, 2015 - 04:19pm PT
|
Pull the smaller diameter rope....harder to pull but fatter rope less likely to get hung up.
Interesting perspective, Jim. I always do the opposite. My usual setup for two rope rappelling is my 9.8 lead rope and an 8.2 1/2 rope. It's sooo much easier to pull big (especially on lower angle stuff), and small seems easier to flip out as it starts to slide free.
But once or twice I did have to actually lead back up to get a stuck knot above, and it's much more reassuring to do that on a lead rope than a 1/2 rope. If you're pulling small, that's what you are going to have to go back up on.
Phyl
|
|
Juan Maderita
Trad climber
"OBcean" San Diego, CA
|
|
|
Sep 28, 2015 - 06:24pm PT
|
Set up the rope you plan to pull on the windward side. That way the flapping loose end is blowing away from the "pull rope", thus avoiding tangling.
I'm curious if that tip is written in a book somewhere? I've posted it a couple times.
|
|
Juan Maderita
Trad climber
"OBcean" San Diego, CA
|
|
|
Sep 28, 2015 - 07:55pm PT
|
Of course, the last person to rap should be very careful to keep the ropes separated. I find the easiest/best way is to clip a quickdraw to the pull rope, above the rappel device. Attach the other carabiner of the quickdraw to the harness. After completing the rappel, be sure to pay attention BEFORE disconnecting the rappel device, keeping the ropes well apart from each other. Whatever method you choose, repeat the same procedure and it will become automatic action.
|
|
NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
|
|
|
Sep 28, 2015 - 07:59pm PT
|
Juan, that is a great tip. One of my stuck/cut rope incidents wind was a factor. Rapped, wind threw rope straight sideways during the pull, and it got stuck right before end went through anchors. 3:1 pulley failed to release it. I prussicked/palm smeared up a steep slab, and saw a few feet at end of rope twisted around the other strand several times, effectively forming a friction knot. Untangled it, reset rap anchor and verified rope moved, rapped, started pulling, same thing happened. All this over the course of 1-2 hours with 50-60 mile an hour winds when it was getting dark with no bivy gear and a few hours walk back to a campground.
I didn't explicitly think about which side to thread to make the end fly free of the side I was pulling. So I can't say whether or not I biffed it. But I sure did cut it because we were just a pitch or two off the deck at that point. Would have been screwed if it happened a few pitches higher.
|
|
phylp
Trad climber
Upland, CA
|
|
|
Sep 28, 2015 - 10:21pm PT
|
Juan, a friend taught me that trick ages ago, and It's one of the best practices ever!
|
|
COT
climber
Door Number 3
|
|
|
Sep 29, 2015 - 07:22am PT
|
What donini said + leave a biner(s), much less friction than trying to pull ropes through webbing. When in doubt do shorter single rope rappels.
4 days ago I rapped 2500 ft down this peak in China. We had 9.1mm and 7mm. We pulled the 7mm. Mostly rapped off a single piece of gear which was backed up for the first person down, then removed by the second. Took us 4.5 hours to descend (in the dark), no ropes got stuck. Being aware of potential rappelling hazards in areas that don't have standard raps (like the NE of Pingora) takes practice and probably getting ropes stuck in the process.
|
|
Roots
Mountain climber
Tustin, CA
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2015 - 10:34am PT
|
^That looks like a fun peak!! Yay!
|
|
skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2015 - 12:45pm PT
|
Thanks everyone who responded. I thought I posted a response before, but pulled a Diercks by hitting another button other than post somehow....
I am putting together a summary takaway that I will throw up tonight.
|
|
PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2015 - 01:26pm PT
|
Do people really think it is acceptable practice to prusik up a stuck rope. I am assuming you are prusiking because you don't have any rope to re-lead up to the stuck spot. If the rope unsticks while prusiking you are probably dead; what am i missing here?
|
|
PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2015 - 04:21pm PT
|
So the rope is either tied in at the bottom or in your partners belay device and start prusicking up and periodically place pro so if the rope comes loose you get caught by the pro you placed but you are only connected to the rope with your prusiks. I have never taken a dynamic fall on prusiks; do they work well? I imagine they would . I better start carrying my prusiks again.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!