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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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Aug 27, 2013 - 12:31am PT
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I would certainly do that.
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Aug 27, 2013 - 12:34am PT
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That's how I free gym routes. A few moves a day and then claim it!
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Aug 27, 2013 - 12:44am PT
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Joe, yeah. The lines are getting more and more blurred, just as we all feared.
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Aug 27, 2013 - 12:49am PT
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Are you saying, for example, that a team free climbs to the Roof on the Salathe and then fixes ropes down to Block to spend the night, jugs back up to their high point the next day and carries on free climbing, that there is something wrong with that?
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Aug 27, 2013 - 01:07am PT
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Joe,
If you're serious, using Mark's example, if they haul portaledges to the Roof and bivvy there, you would consider that free, but if they rap down and sleep on the Block, then jumar back up to the Roof the next day, that is not free. I agree with Mark - I don't think the hanging/bivy location and jugging makes any difference - they are still freeing the same blocks of pitches each day.
If they went down from the wall, came back the next year, and started at their old highpoint, maybe that is what you are thinking of - they would get a big rest in between.
Or maybe you are thinking that any use of ascenders invalidates a free ascent. That's simple enough, but then it would require portaledges or very careful planning.
There are alternative criticisms - where hanging belays are not allowed for a free ascent.
See Matt Wilder's 2002 attempt to free the West Buttress without hanging belays:
http://www.stanford.edu/%7Eclint/yos/longhf.htm#westb
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Aug 27, 2013 - 01:52am PT
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I like the idea of having el cap as a giant top rope.
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jfailing
Trad climber
PDX, North Slope, The Open Road
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Aug 27, 2013 - 01:59am PT
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I think about it this way - if I successfully freed (without falling) several 5.12-5.13 pitches on El Cap, and there was a plush bivy ledge several pitches below me, I would much rather rest/sleep there than have to haul kit and sleep in a cramped portaledge (after having sent El Cap 5.13 for that matter).
If it's a question of actually leaving the wall, back to the valley, then I agree with you. But rapping to a previous (or higher maybe) point on the wall? S'cool.
Why couldn't you just climb back up to your highpoint, instead of jumaring?
So you're suggesting that to make it a valid free attempt, you'd have to reclimb those exact same pitches of low-probability 5.13 all over again just to get back up to your high-point? To be able to claim a valid ascent?
The accomplishment of freeing any route on El Cap warrants sleeping/resting at the most optimum bivy (in my opinion)...
There are certainly some parties that do agree with you though - Leo Houlding, although rehearsing to a degree, eventually freed The Prophet ground up (correct me if I'm wrong). Although there may have been some pre-stashed gear?
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Nohea
Trad climber
Living Outside the Statist Quo
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Aug 27, 2013 - 02:02am PT
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Who cares? Let each choose their path. If their spray is more than you can take, check out a different thread.
But seriously...who cares?
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giegs
climber
Tardistan
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Aug 27, 2013 - 02:08am PT
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Didn't Houlding preview the route on rappel after tons of failed attempts only to find he was going the wrong direction?
Ya'll are older than me and fly the curmudgeon flag a bit higher than I'm willing, but aren't you willing to see how completely badass it is to push a free route up el cap? It's not like we're talking about yo-yoing pitches here. Sure, you could free solo that sh#t from the ground up if you're not a pussy, but let's be honest, we're all bitchmade.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
extraordinaire
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Aug 27, 2013 - 02:31am PT
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I'd like to see some of the obscure, and off-route traverses etc that go nowhere, FAed. The idea of "freeing" old famous aid routes bottom to top is already corrupted with doubts. I'd rather they rap in, chill on portaledges, jug or whatever, but actually project some new and creative lines - not following anything fom the past.
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Ryan Tetz
Trad climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Aug 27, 2013 - 04:20am PT
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"Why couldn't you just climb back up to your highpoint, instead of jumaring?"
If you are specifically referring to Mark's example, that is ridiculous to assume they have to free climb pitches multiple times during the same ascent after each ledge bivy. No one does it that way. Climbing is better without so many rules.
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BlackSpider
Ice climber
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Aug 27, 2013 - 09:10am PT
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You are making far too big a deal out of this.
-Yes, free-climbing a route in a single push, is more physically impressive than bivying on-route. Of course, no one has ever claimed such an ascent unless that's actually what they did (or they were lying). In the example you are so hung up about, the reporting is clear that they redpointed every pitch. There is no claim of a continuous redpoint of the route.
-There is no substantive difference (in terms of the climbing) between freeing a final pitch for the day, hauling a portaledge, and bivying there, versus fixing and rapping to a bivy ledge further down, then jumaring back up to the climbing high point the next morning.
-If your standard for free-climbing a big wall is a continuous ground-to-summit redpoint (i.e. every pitch is climbed free, in a push, with no falls), then there have been very few free ascents of El Cap, or any other big wall for that matter.
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Aug 27, 2013 - 09:44am PT
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Hmmm.... Seems like splitting very fine hairs at this point.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Aug 27, 2013 - 10:15am PT
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People should climb in any style they want to climb. Conquistadors of the useless we are.
Hangin out on El cap, zippin up and down some fixed lines.. working some pitches in such a ridiculously amazing spot seems like fun to me.
One trip I've been daydreaming about doing for while now is to spend a few days maybe a week on top just top roping along the rim and taking pictures. Mebbe rap down at the end.
I'll guarantee I'd have a blast.
Would I then think I was as badass as Honnold or Lynn Hill? Lol of course not.
I can't see why any of this matters. A climb is what it is... Most people are only trying to impress themselves.. if that.
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Aug 27, 2013 - 10:21am PT
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^ +1
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JakeW
Big Wall climber
CA
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Aug 27, 2013 - 10:26am PT
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I've freed a few large walls in a day because I'm too weak and lazy to haul all the camping equipment, steaks, booze, books, stereos etc. that I like to enjoy in my non-climbing time. Plus I had to go back to work, sigh.
And I'm too weak to free climb after jumaring. It destroys my elbows and totally throws off my free climbing mojo. I'm really impressed by folks that are tough enough to jumar 1000 feet then put on their shoes and chalk bag and send hard. I've actually mini-traxioned following on aid ascents(of easy routes with lots of free)...allows me to be more rested for the next leads and live a tendonitis free life.
Unless you grow an organic time machine, go back to before gear, beta, and pin scars, erase your belief in rock climbing built by generations of gear assisted ascent, and free solo naked...it's all just contriving the BEST WAY TO HAVE THE MOST FUN.
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Snowmassguy
Trad climber
Calirado
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Aug 27, 2013 - 10:39am PT
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The great State of California needs to regulate this behavior. First, we need the state to form a committee to define the acceptable regulations/ethics for freeing a wall. All members of this committee will be tenured and will receive a pension from the state. We will then hire full time employees to sit in the meadow or bridge to make sure the govt defined ethic is upheld.
Any violators will be fined and may face possible jail time when their climb has been completed. In addition to purifying the wall ethics in Yosemite, this plan will bring economic prosperity to the Valley through new job creation well as revenue from the punitive fines that will be levied.
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jonnyrig
Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
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Aug 27, 2013 - 10:51am PT
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what about the rope solo guys? do you dock them points for jugging after cleaning the lower anchor, or award them brownie points for climbing twice?
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Aug 27, 2013 - 10:52am PT
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At this point in the evolution of climbing, there is a public style and a private style.
The public style is to not screw up the experience of anyone else. I.e. Don't littler the sh#t out of the route (gear, tat, human waste, fixed gear left for YOUR ascent), allowing faster climbers to pass, being polite, understanding that you are not the only person up there and everyone up there wants to have fun, basically respecting everyone else's experience.
Your private style is any freaking thing you want! Grab gear, climb the Nose in 2 hours, or two days, all aid, all free, party of three or a party of one, go old school, with the bare minimum or go big wall camping with it all and the kitchen sink.
As long as your public style is good, I can't imagine why your private style matters to anyone.
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The Wolf
Trad climber
Martinez, CA
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Aug 27, 2013 - 11:00am PT
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Isn't there a film coming out about some style/ethic controversy that happened on El Cap a few years back?
Peter you may know.....
LOL
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