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Sport climber
Sacramento, Ca
Topic Author's Original Post - Mar 15, 2013 - 10:20am PT
I recently suggested some changes to one of the area descriptions in that would have brought the information regarding that area into the 21st century. (this was information that only an administrator could change) I got no response so sent in two more requests but heard nothing. I sent the same information to and, after a couple sends, finally got a reply and was able to update the area. Do others have the same problem? I have previously posted a bunch of updates on but I think in the future I will only post this info on

Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
Mar 15, 2013 - 10:49am PT
I'm with Jebus....The main reason I come to this site is because of the wealth of info on routes, but especially new routes not in the guides. I wouldn't have gone to the Cookie Sheet recently if it weren't for folks posting up and it's one of the ways I feel I can contribute. I wouldn't be too interested in this site otherwise.
Edit: Bob Jensen's new route post is the best of the year so far in my mind and one of the best posts ever. Every moderate climber and there brother's gonna be on that this summer......

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Mar 15, 2013 - 10:56am PT
Fair question Dingus. I have on a few occasions added info or pictures to climbing websites. I wouldn't do it if I ever had any expectation to make money off those donations. In the particular cases of the sites i did this with I felt I had gained much more from them than over time than I had given. I certainly feel that way with ST. I will never write a guidebook, I long ago stopped sending photo's to climbing mags. I don't need proprietary info for guiding or some-such.

I'm not so much focused on the for profit owners who actually I do appreciate for providing the venue but the users from whom I have gained information and enjoyment over the years.

Sport climber
Sacramento, Ca
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 15, 2013 - 11:12am PT
A few years back I noticed that a fellow was posting routes in and the only information was stuff that came directly from published guide books. He had probably never been to the areas much less climbed the routes. I had a problem accepting this as appropriate so posted this on the forum. The responses were that this guy was their biggest poster and that I shouldn't bad mouth him. I had been adding information on a number of routes in various areas that was information not included in the guide books and I figured this was the appropriate information to post not just repeat guide book info. I would hope that and etc posters would follow this example if they would I think the online guides would be a valuable resource. I do not like to see information available online that competes with guide book information. I buy all the guide books to the areas I am interested in. I usually pay much more than the author is asking (if I can buy directly from the author) as I realize that writing a guide book is really a labor of love and not usually profitable. I have talked to a number of guide book authors, they, like the rebolters, the trail builders and the new routers in the world that for, whatever the reason, get a kick out of doing these pursuits but not in it for the money. (not sure I used comma's correctly in this last sentence. Someone correct me and I'll edit it) One guide book author I know said he figured he made 19 cents an hour for his guide book efforts.

Social climber
Mar 15, 2013 - 11:24am PT
That much?

Sport climber
Sacramento, Ca
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 15, 2013 - 11:40am PT
Dingus: Seems to me that is the way it should be. Something like climbers helping other climbers. Probably, in a lot of cases, that is not how it turns out. I have mixed feelings about any profit motive related to climbing. I guess in this world of capitalism that is pretty naive.

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Mar 15, 2013 - 11:48am PT
$.19.... an hour! Sign me up...

I always take any online info with a chunk o salt....

Go and compair some of the conflicting driving directions on MP...

none of that info is checked. SummitPost was the best regarding info because one had to have actually climbed the climb if you were going to post info.... but that place is pretty much dead also, like rockclimbing.

ST is for the stories and the BS, oh yeah, CMAC's topos are pretty accurate if one is in need of such things.

I like Guide Books and don't mind paying for them - as long as the info is accurate.
the Fet

Mar 15, 2013 - 01:01pm PT
I pretty much stopped going to years ago. Later I heard it had been sold to folks who owned a sky diving website I knew not only had it jumped the shark, but the shark had died of old age.

There's talk above about contributing for a love of the sport and fellow participants. When a website is owned by people whose main interest isn't climbing you know it's all about money.

I'll go where I can to find route info and it seems MP is the best place online now (except for the limited areas covered here).
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Mar 15, 2013 - 01:04pm PT
I agree with DMT. It is anarchy, and it sucks.

Said it for years, but we need a paradigm shift. A good description from a first ascensionist should be regarded as intellectual property.

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Mar 15, 2013 - 01:13pm PT
I will use any and all information I can get my hands on. I rarely could give 2 fuks about who did what when, unless of course I did the FA, then it is paramount to preserve the information for historical purposes.

If an FAist gives a shitty description and some yahoo comes along who can describe the route better, I go with the yahoo's description... especially if it is free.

philadelphia, pa
Mar 15, 2013 - 01:38pm PT makes a lot more sense when you realize it's owned/run by a couple skydiving IT geeks who bought the site to increase their userbase and thereby increase negotiated page view ad revenue. They really don't care about the site past that, and most don't even climb.

Oh, and Dingus is right... Forget about copyright over there. Doesn't mean a thing. And the monkeys get all bent out of shape if you try and enforce your copyright by simply removing your work....

The Desert Oven
Mar 15, 2013 - 01:57pm PT was a cool site... in 2004. Since then it has been on the decline, with a few highlights when Jung ran the place and Aric was doing the lab. +100 to all that Aric and Dingus said. That place is the definition of a poorly run site and a shining example of the what you get with incompetent and absentee managers.

Sport climber
Sacramento, Ca
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 15, 2013 - 01:58pm PT
Dingus: I understand what you are saying. Maybe I am to stupid or naive to see the control you refer to. Even if this "Control" problem is prevalent I hate to dismiss the entire site. I have posted to the site in the past and consider my posts to be informative and find some of the other people's posts also informative. I guess what I (and a lot of other responders to this post) see is, be aware that you get what you pay for. I was just appointed temporary administrator of an area on Mountain Project. The area hasn't been published in 20 years so I wanted to add information that would really help people and spent a lot time getting the information also I had develeped new sections in that area and a bunch of new climbs that I think are worthy so I wanted others to be able to enjoy them. I suspect there are other administrators that have the same focus but also suspect that the majority of the administrators and posters are armchair climbers as I referred to in my previous post. I think if more real climbers posted as I suggest and had a positive attitude toward sites like the site could be a good resource. Bottom line: the world is made up of a lot of stupid people and you can see the results on Supertopo and other online climbing sites. But that isn't going to change because the stupid people don't think they are stupid. A great quote from Glen Rosanders mother: You wouldn't be as concerned about what people think of you if you knew how little they did. (Not sure how relevant that quote to this subject except that many people think seeing their names in the lights elevates their status).

Trad climber
the middle of CA
Mar 15, 2013 - 02:00pm PT
I love the books, but I bet within 10 years you won't be able to find them on any shelves. All info sharing is headed to the worldweirdweb!

If anyone takes and copies or sells or shares anything I put online that's cool with me, that's why it's there! What do you expect when you post?

Easy for me to say cause I'm not trying to make a living off any of it. Just feel like I should contribute if I'm gonna use the sites. And ya, MP wins

philadelphia, pa
Mar 15, 2013 - 02:03pm PT
Yeah, was pretty sweet when J_ung was running the show. Makes quite a difference when Management is actively involved on a social level, which is something that DDT has never done. Hell, back when NameMedia handed control back to DDT it was hard to get him to even respond to questions/guidance from us mods!

Anyway, ancient history....

Trad climber
Mar 15, 2013 - 02:05pm PT WAS once good pre2004, now it is a terribly uninteresting sight with many links that are messed up: say rockies pics in Thailand, vague useless info. I stopped going there long ago too.

Trad climber
the middle of CA
Mar 15, 2013 - 02:14pm PT
Dingus: oh that's what that quote meant! I didn't catch it at first, but its a good point.

I guess we'll have to see how info gets archived in the future, and books are a good way for now. I still think everything will be digital before too long. Easier to search, edit, and reproduce.

Maybe I'll start saving everything from my favorite areas of MP just incase! Don't sue me when you see your route description in a book after the grid fails

philadelphia, pa
Mar 15, 2013 - 02:49pm PT
I didn't mean it that way either, Dingus; just trying to explain the lack of response. Even I've been back recently, although only to PM someone I lent a long-out of print guidebook to years ago to (once again) try and get it back.

And yup, nothing beats a proper guide_book_. Websites don't get dirty and dog-eared from use, and nothing's better than flipping through a well-used guidebook reading notes scribbled in the margins.

Trad climber
Mar 15, 2013 - 07:14pm PT is pretty much dead in the water except for a very few threads and regular posters who still use it to socialize. As a meaningful place for climbing information, it's almost completely stagnant.

A few months ago, when the owners bought the place back, I sent a professional query to them asking if they might have interest in my consulting services(my niche is social marketing) as they began rebuilding an audience.

I waited for a replay. And waited.

And finally got a polite reply that amounted to a "we know what we're doing"(Really...have you LOOKED at your Facebook page or Twitter page recently? Do you even HAVE a You Tube channel, and why aren't you on Pinterest, posting every worthwhile user-submitted image with a link back to the photo section of the site?)

He also said budget was tight, a social media consultant wasn't within means, but bearing that in mind, did I have any suggestions as to ways we might work together anyway...

I sighed. and then dug deep and politely offered some limited pro bono work.

Never even got a response. Not a single word.


Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
Mar 15, 2013 - 10:13pm PT
I don't think that sites like who have figured out a useful way of compiling massive amounts of route data run too much of a risk of folding overnight and all the information disappearing into oblivion.

The routes database MP has been building holds tremendous value to any site with a climbing oriented user base. It's what fuels the majority of their traffic. If they were to fold overnight that database would be liquidated as an asset and sold to the highest bidder. Yes, that holds a series of it's own risks but the info surely wouldn't just "be lost to oblivion". It would just be relocated.

I used to hold exactly the same opinion as Dingus and certainly still see where he's coming from. But I find myself referencing online media rather than seeking out seriously outdated guidebooks for route info more and more. Since I pull alot of info from, I changed my mind and started updating alot of the stuff I know for others to use. However, I do have to agree that posting strait from a guidebook is bogus. Never would I consider copy and pasting strait from a guide. All the info I submit is from personal experience having climbed the route and I try to be as accurate as possible from route description and gear all the way to F.A. info and history. The only things I've ever copied from a guide were the names of the routes and who's credited with it's F.A. and that info is public knowledge and no longer owned by anyone. Hence you do not need permission to transcribe that particular info. When it comes to obscure, sensitive or totally pristine hordless areas which makes up the majority of my whereabouts, ya'll can go suck it! That info is in my head and that's the only way it should be. I do have a little "Beckey book", but if I showed you... well, you know.

Guidebooks are taking a trend toward more route information with less content (like the Supertopo) instead of building on what already exists and producing more comprehensive guides, even if they have less specific route info. Guidebooks are only going to get so big and complicated before they are too big to economically put into print. Online media can expand into infinity. It is the future of guides while the "book" unfortunately is more likely to shrink into more of a "select" format for the traveling hit and run climber.

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