'Trad' climbing. Or is it?

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Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Topic Author's Original Post - Oct 22, 2012 - 11:11am PT
I know a few long time climbers who ONLY lead pitches that they top roped, ‘mock led,’ or followed, unless it is at least a few grades bellow their limit. Do you guys think it is still ‘trad’ climbing if you ALWAYS know you can do it? Not sure how to call it, since by definition you are placing clean pro and are going up, but something is missing here…to me ‘trad’ involves some unknown, some risk, some challenge. Any thoughts?
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Oct 22, 2012 - 11:12am PT
If it works for them, who really cares? Do you need to feel better than them on some subtle level so as to necessitate exact labeling?

Snobbery sure feels good sometimes but it ultimately makes you a dickhead only other dickheads tolerate.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Oct 22, 2012 - 11:13am PT
are THOSE the guys decking all over when their shyt pulls??
Jeremy

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Oct 22, 2012 - 11:15am PT
I don't care nor do I give a flying f*#k...they should think the same way.

J
cultureshock

Trad climber
Mountain View
Oct 22, 2012 - 11:16am PT
I say more trip reports less trolling!

Trad seems to refer to one or two things.

Protection ie some type of removable gear thus placing nuts and cams makes it a traditional ascent.

Style ie ground up style is often referred to as Traditional style.


Most people call leading routes that you have top roped headpointing.

Very often done in the UK.

 Luke
jstan

climber
Oct 22, 2012 - 11:18am PT
Very often done in the UK.

where the is often no protection at all.
ncrockclimber

climber
The Desert Oven
Oct 22, 2012 - 11:20am PT
Whatever. "Trad" means somewhat different things to different people. If they are having fun and not retrobolting established routes that take gear, I could really give a flying f*#k what they call it.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Oct 22, 2012 - 11:40am PT
Can you ever climb the same climb twice?
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Oct 22, 2012 - 11:43am PT
yes,,, right down to the crystals... ive seen it many times lol!
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Oct 22, 2012 - 11:44am PT
Trad is a type of climbing.
Trad onsight is a style.
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 22, 2012 - 11:51am PT
If it works for them, who really cares? Do you need to feel better than them on some subtle level so as to necessitate exact labeling?

Snobbery sure feels good sometimes but it ultimately makes you a dickhead only other dickheads tolerate.

It is discussion I want to encourage. See what different people think about the word ‘trad,’ seems it could have many definitions to many people? Not comparing anyone to my far ‘superior’ style (Sarcasm. I do not lead hard and have mock led before!). Personal story- one time my friend convinced me to lead a 5.9 I TRd clean. At that point I never led a 5.9 or a 5.8 OS. I wasn’t comfortable with my gear placements. Next time I went up I put in gear while on TR and had him examine it. He said it was good, cleaned it, and I led the climb clean. Was super happy after I did it. Next day decked from 12ft up trying to onsight some 5.8. So this thread was started to encourage discussion, not put people down.

PS: 'trad onsight' thread got me thinking about this.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Oct 22, 2012 - 11:56am PT
i think back to the late eighties, when terms like "PINK point" came about..??? PINK POINT!!!! BWWAHAHAhahahahahahaaaaaaa0a0000aaeeee
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 22, 2012 - 11:57am PT
what does it mean 'pink point'? There are a lot of terms I am overwhelmed by. I guess it will be more clear with time...


edit: got it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinkpoint
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Oct 22, 2012 - 12:05pm PT
well, we went a whole udder direction with "PINK POINT" ...During those days with the new terminology flooding in to the scene , there was loads of opportunistic moments in which to play with said terms..;-) I NEVER did embrace the hangdog philosophies. Sure it MAY have made me a better numbers climber, but it just bored me to DEATH. If the route wasnt in my ability to get it after one or two g/u lead attempts, it went to the future todo list, or was simply forgotten. Breashers, Wunsch and the gangs style interested me the most from bitd.
kaholatingtong

Trad climber
subjective hell
Oct 22, 2012 - 12:20pm PT
good points, all. while i dont think it really matters at all, one way or the other, my personal take is this : "traditional" climbing simply applies to the means used at the current point in time on the climb, irregardless of whether it has been seen, practiced, etc previously.

would practicing something on tr mar the experience somewhat? ofcourse. but climbing is a personal thing so i guess it depends how "traditional" one wants to be.

that being said, i can honestly agree that a purer "traditional" experience is had when it is genuinely onsight, unpracticed.

however, this does lead me to wonder, if it isnt trad climbing simply because you have climbed it on tr, practiced it, or in some way it wasnt truly "onsight" then anytime anyone uses a guidebook that gives any sort of beta whatsoever this would in this same vein not be "traditional" either because they didnt have to figure out all out on their own.

is truly "traditional" climbing only when you make your own first ascent, ground up? maybe for some, but not for me.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Oct 22, 2012 - 12:23pm PT
It is discussion I want to encourage.

It's a topic beat into the ground already, and one that quickly devolves. Luke's right, less trolling, more trip reports ;).

But have fun with it, many of us have already told us our views of this topic if you weren't listening.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Oct 22, 2012 - 12:23pm PT
style----rules---sometimes blurry .. this all means NOTHING, because your climbing lives will be like a big curved graph, starting out with dubious technique to make up for a lack of experience then upward as knowledge and skills are gained,, then,,,,,THE SLIDE back down the hump as your body no longer listens to your mind as much,, techniques and the lack there of bother you LESS, and the terms loose their meanings entirely.;-)
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Trad climber
SLO, Ca
Oct 22, 2012 - 12:28pm PT
No one has cared about any of this since about 1986.
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 22, 2012 - 12:32pm PT
that being said, i can honestly agree that a purer "traditional" experience is had when it is genuinely onsight, unpracticed.

however, this does lead me to wonder, if it isnt trad climbing simply because you have climbed it on tr, practiced it, or in some way it wasnt truly "onsight" then anytime anyone uses a guidebook that gives any sort of beta whatsoever this would in my mind not be "traditional" either because they didnt have to figure out all out on their own.

is truly "traditional" climbing only when you make your own first ascent, ground up? maybe for some, but not for me.

Exactly the kind of discussion I wanted to encourage! You pointed out the same questions I had in my mind. Personally I thought to OS is to climb something from ground up, without hangs, without ever attempting to climb the route, or working it on TR. Somewhere I read that to onsight you can't have beta and couldn't look at other people climbing it. But than what if you saw others TRing it only, which is a lot sloppier technique than when you are on lead?

Jebus, yes maybe this subject is beaten to death, but maybe better to beat it a bit more than to have 10000 political threads.
cliffhanger

Trad climber
California
Oct 22, 2012 - 12:40pm PT
Recreate the original experience of any point in climbing history by going without guide or topo and with the original equipment. Like this guy:

Inside the Tweeds of a Victorian Gentleman Climber

http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=5011
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