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nutjob
Gym climber
Berkeley, CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 21, 2012 - 07:02pm PT
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Interesting article and more interesting discussion:
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2012/08/2012820102749246453.html
I am biased toward the the "duh, why don't you get trained in something people are willing to pay for if you want to make more money?" camp. But some things "should" be governed by a more humanistic or consciously intentioned force than supply/demand. I don't know where exactly to draw that line, but I think it's an interesting discussion.
When it comes to advising my kids, I will err on the side of steering them pragmatically toward a resilient field with flexible/re-purposable skills. Anything else they study can be for a hobby or pursuing their interests. But if they choose a non-marketable field, I will make sure they have a clear idea of the implications of that choice and walk into it with open eyes. That may still not be enough, because youthful passions can give way to mid-life crises and realizations that they can't afford to create the life they now want to live.
Ok, the agenda is set, talk amongst yourselves.
edit: While I dive back into figuring out how to bolt on audit trails to my php/mysql app and whether or not I should use triggers and stored procedures, or change my queries in all of my code, or just the INSERT queries and then create a view that lets my old code remain untouched. My head is hurting, I'm not a real programmer, I think I need another supertopo break.
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nutjob
Gym climber
Berkeley, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 21, 2012 - 07:23pm PT
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How true does TGT's article ring for recent college graduates? It strikes me as true, but I'm out of touch with the generation of post-dotcom college grads.
Somewhere in this discussion should be what is a reasonable sense of entitlement. We have the right to pursue happiness, but are we entitled to actually achieving happiness through external gratifications? Perhaps we have a materialism bubble that needs to pop, and a painful contraction back to focusing on skills that facilitate physical/economic survival and reassessment of "needs" vs "wants".
What government policies would facilitate a less painful contraction? Protectionist tariffs? Government-paid vocational training with merit-based acceptance for limited spaces? Reduction of corporate rights and aggressive wealth redistribution so the efficiencies of technology and automation serve the benefit of more humans rather than the elite owners and upper management of corporations?
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spyork
Trad climber
Tunneling out of prison
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Aug 21, 2012 - 07:37pm PT
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I am busting my ass to make sure my two boys wont have student debt when they graduate. I have a senior and a sophomore in high school. Life will suck for me for a few years, but the result will be two sons with college degrees who hopefully will get jobs and then don't have a mortgage sized debt on their necks from the get-go. Then I have to worry about retirement. Sounds like I will be living in a van eating Alpo.
Steve
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nutjob
Gym climber
Berkeley, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 21, 2012 - 08:16pm PT
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Hey Steve, I hear pine-needle tea goes well with Alpo! And the view from the van down by the river is pretty sweet. Save a good spot for me, I'll be a few years behind you ;)
Wow, I just read what Dolomite posted. That's the sort of Grand Unified Theory perspective. It seems that the more information I absorb from the world the more I become entrenched in a vision of evil corporations. Star Trek the Next Generation had a prophetic metaphor with the Borg.
Independently, I was at a doctor's office this morning reading an article about 250,000 farmers in India committing suicide by drinking pesticides, as a result of a crippling economic slavery in the wake of the World Bank opening India's markets to foreign seed sources. Monsanto over-promised yields with their new seeds, and the traditional seed banks were lost in a few seasons and the farmers are currently dependent on Monsanto genetically engineered sterile seeds that require annual seed purchases, plus more water than is locally available, plus fertilizers and pesticides that cost more, all of which leads to farmers in impossibly huge debt so that they see suicide as the only viable escape. Pretty horrifying and a strong case for organic cotton from trackable sources. Anyhoo I digress. Maybe that's all just the marketing spin bs from a company that wants to make more profits on organic stuff, to be the next "eco-Monsanto." Not enough time to pay attention to everything.
In spite of all this shite, I suspect a lot if not most of the evil is an emergent property rather than a specific conspiracy of some mystery elite folks to cause harm to others. It is greed without consideration for the consequences to others rather than an intentional desire to cause harm. It's a natural dynamic of people at different levels of society doing whatever most other people inserted into that layer of society would do to maintain or improve their position.
But after the whining phase of these posts, I want to consider practical solutions that are formed from little steps taken by many people.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Aug 21, 2012 - 08:34pm PT
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As an employer, I cannot find anyone trained to do what I need out of any college or school. I have to train them myself. It takes about a year.
If they have a college degree, meh. They need to be quick to learn and adapt to new things.
If they are quick and focused, within about 5 years they can make a 6 figure income. No diploma's required.
In the future, large companies will provide their own, learning institutions.
Disney is already using Cal-Arts as a creative farm.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Aug 21, 2012 - 09:01pm PT
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If Ron (the moron) Reagan were still around, that article would put some lead in his pencil.
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Aug 21, 2012 - 09:17pm PT
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I really try and keep tabs on the cost of higher education, job prospects for those kids and the quality of education.
I have two children in College and one starting this fall. All are receiving in state tuition partly due to geography and cost per value. My youngest was a top student, in OR where he attended HS, if you take AP courses you can get a 5.0 for a A instead of a 4.0. He graduated with a 4.3 GPA and received one B grade in AP Physics, despite Ski Racing Full Time (that means he was traveling all winter long). The point is not that my kid is that gifted, but his Scholarship for his academic success was about $3500 out of what is approximately $18k/year for Tuition/fees/room and board. One B in and AP Class and Excellent SAT scores gives you about a 25% Scholarship.
If you have children start saving even 50$ per month when they are born, if you value higher education. If a kid runs up $80-$100K in loans, then either they did not look at the best education for the cost, the parents did not help, or the kid took a long time to graduate (my daughter for instance).
I too tend to push the kids into a field where there are jobs. The point of higher education is that upon completion, you have the ability to continue learning. If you choose a field that you can get a job in, you can always learn to basket weave on your own spare time while you are gainfully employed. It is a harsh reality that many College Educations are not valued in real life.
The other thing kids should do is to learn to work their ass off. My middle son is going to be a Senior in Chemical Engineering. I have a BS in that so I know how frickin hard that is (I barely made it). While lots of College kids have time to f*#k off, he is working his ass off. And, he has gotten an internship at $19$ per hour. He is finally seeing his fruits of labor pay of financially. He is not getting this by studying in a field that is pretty easy.
It is frustrating (for the kids when they enter into reality) that so many kids enter into college thinking that if they like the courses the they will like the job. That seldom works. If they do choose a field with limited job prospects, and they want a good job, then as my dad always said, there is always room at the top. He also told me to "create more options" don't study something that limits your options.
I totally agree that as a country we need to do more in all areas of education.
Sorry for the long post.
PS - The statistics in the article are scary. But with all numbers one must look at what the population was that was sampled. At most state schools one can expect to have full time prof.s. Or maybe my kids are just studying different fields.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
the crowd MUST BE MOCKED...Mocked I tell you.
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Aug 21, 2012 - 10:30pm PT
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Spider,
What type of work? Very curious that colleges can't train.
pm me if you don't want to publish the specifics online
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Aug 21, 2012 - 11:51pm PT
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The easiest way to a free college education is to join the military for four years. The U.S. government pays 100% tuition and quite a lot on the books. The safest service of course is the Air Force and they need the most educated people. Even the Marine Corps and Army grunts are encouraged to take college courses and get an A.A. if they want to get promoted. There are a lot of other good life skills people learn in the service as well. Especially with the war in Afghanistan winding down and the need to not get involved in any more wars until we pay for the last two, the military is most likely looking at a long period of peaceful service ahead.
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crasic
climber
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Aug 22, 2012 - 12:01am PT
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Science, academia, and the arts has always, since the beginning of recorded history been supported through the patronage system. Either by wealthy individuals and royalty or by the state itself.
State support for artists and academics is just a natural democratic evolution of this idea.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Aug 22, 2012 - 12:15am PT
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of course parents want their children to be "successful" so trying to steer them into "practical" careers is expected.
but really, what does "successful" mean? making a lot of money?
I went to UC Berkeley 1972-1976, had a "scholarship" that waived the $200/quarter fee, but basically had to work for everything else... which I somehow found time to do... no car, and no life other than the academic one... an intellectual dirt bag often...
now I never viewed going to the university as a way to certify me to going into industry... when did that expectation emerge? it's sort of like college being the NFL's minor league... probably a lot better if they had a minor league of their own and got out of college football... same with industry...
but certainly the product of colleges and universities, which is the graduates, have a place in the workforce. One can learn many things at college, and perhaps many more things in graduate school, but to think 4 years of doing anything actually qualifies you for a high paying job is really a failure of society to communicate that it is barely a beginning... where did this expectation come from?
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Aug 22, 2012 - 12:28am PT
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Excellent perspective Ed!
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Aug 22, 2012 - 12:32am PT
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Don't get me started. Of my five nieces and nephews recently graduated only
3.5 are using their degrees. Not surprisingly the one who majored in math
and business is doing really well. He'll be retired by the time he's 40.
The two teachers are using theirs in a good way and getting ahead. The
ones with the English and Environmental Sciences degrees, well, they're not
in a soup line, yet. The one who quit engineering to get an Art degree is,
shockingly, actually doing pretty well as a web designer.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Aug 22, 2012 - 12:37am PT
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What is it we want to build as a society? A well oiled economy that ensures economic success for all or a civilization predicated on achievements in human understanding, philosophy and the arts? When we think of the Renaissance do we immediately recall the success of the cloth trade and the real estate market or do we marvel at the achievements of its artists and architects?
A great civilization needs to strike a balance between the practical necessity of a powerful economy and the elevation of the minds of its citizens. What is the value of wealth if not the foundation for the great excess of an enlightened and enriched citizenry?
What good is a thriving economy if it isn't the predicate for the nurturing of great ideas, great art, great science? You can't tell me that a great society is simply one in which everyone has a job.
Screw practicality (though carefully) and follow your bliss.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Aug 22, 2012 - 12:41am PT
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I think the cost of college has become sad. This is human life we're exploring and knowledge shouldn't be all about money.
We are at the death knell of study of humanities, art, history, and everything else that doesn't promise a professional job to pay back school. Do we really want to turn our back on research of those things and basically eliminating a population of folks who know beyond lucrative knowledge?
It's a low road we're heading for
Peace
karl
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giegs
climber
Tardistan
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Aug 22, 2012 - 12:54am PT
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It would be interesting to hear Hanson's opinion on the utility of his own classes. Having taken several partially based on his work I would say they fall pretty hard in the "enjoyable fluff" category for most people.
Ed: I would think the expectation comes as a result of cost and the pitch that comes from the time kids are introduced to the idea of higher education and lasts up to the point they get an offer for a job they could have performed prior to spending all that money. I'm sure you appreciate how distant $200/quarter is from the current reality.
Every year I train plenty of bright, motivated kids with college degrees how to swing a hammer and dig ditches. As Ed brings up, the idea that doing well in school and getting a degree ensures any sort of future is oversold. Even the idea of "good" degrees in hard sciences or what have you being necessarily superior to more liberal degrees is oversold.
Most of the folks I hear talking so authoritatively on this haven't applied for their first real job in decades and are just out of touch. Instead they'll talk about all the hiring/interviews they do for the one or two positions they hire for a year. Compelling.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Aug 22, 2012 - 01:03am PT
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and gasoline was probably $0.50/gal too, but that's not the point, you still have to live... my expectations were not for some fabulous lifestyle while I was at school, it was really and truly a "dirt bag experience" trying to figure out how to get by...
I spent my first week in Berkeley looking for an apt. I could afford and spending nights in People's Park... my expectation? to figure out how to live and go to school... to learn physics from the greats... I had no expectation of making money afterward... perhaps I had a notion that I might be able to go to graduate school, then perhaps have a research career... never did I think of it as a "career path" but more a privilege to learn.
but that's just me.
you do what you have to do...
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R.B.
Trad climber
47N 122W
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Aug 22, 2012 - 01:06am PT
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I was faced with advising my daughter. Does she have a passion in anything? If not, then at least go and get a two year community college degree. I first pushed her into math, science and calculus, physics. It just wasn't her bag of tea.
So she went for an AA and got it with a good GPA. No, it's not going to get her rich, but this is what I tell her:
A college degree will teach you how to learn, it will help you learn how to study a problem and solve it, and it will tell an employer that you started something and you finished it. You also will meet some interesting and diverse people along the way If she wants to finish off with the final two years for a BS or BA, fine, but at least she got the AA diploma in her hand today! PS it only cost about $5000 outta pocket with the tax deductions and credits you can still take. Good way to at least give them some guidance while they are uncertain.
But if they have a passion for something ... GO FOR IT!
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