Ropeburns on belayers hands

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Studly

Trad climber

Topic Author's Original Post - May 21, 2010 - 09:48am PT

If someone decks, and the belayer has ropeburns on their hands, does not that somehow indicate that something went wrong with the belay?
I've never gotten rope burns on my hands belaying with a ATC or other, rappelling yes. But if you get rope burns, its because you were not tending the rope correctly.
I got jumped on on another climbing website for saying rope burns on the belayers hands are a smoking gun. They had a couple pieces of gear pull as well, but that should make no difference to the belayer who should just lock off. Just curious if there is something I am missing.....so go ahead, rip me a new one.....

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

May 21, 2010 - 10:14am PT

I've been belaying for 45 years and have never burned my hands. I once held a 90 foot fall in Yosemite with the old rope around the waist system. Have always wondered why people use belay gloves.

JBoydston

climber

Deep South

May 21, 2010 - 10:29am PT

Biggest fall I've caught is a 40 to 50 foot factor 1 fall with an ATC... zero burns or rope slipping.

That does sound a bit suspect.

Josh Higgins

Trad climber

San Diego

May 21, 2010 - 10:37am PT

I wear belay gloves because my hands dry and crack if I don't. If I don't wear gloves I end up with bloody gaping holes in the pads of my fingers. Also, belay gloves are great at keeping my hands warm when I'm climbing somewhere cold, like J-Tree in the dead of winter. I like em.

My belayer once thought he was going to get rope burns when I did The Edge. I thought I was supposed to climb the crack, not the arete for the final pitch, and it turns out it's about 11c and I didn't have anything that fit the crack. We've never caught a pure factor 2 fall though. Maybe he would have held it with no rope slippage? I'm glad we didn't find out! :)

I'd say that ropeburn = error for the most part.

Josh

Prod

Trad climber

Dodge Sprinter Dreaming

May 21, 2010 - 10:41am PT

I'd link the guy who jumped you to this page. If I hit the deck and he had rope burns on his hands his best bet would be to get untied and down hill before I come to.

Prod.

Hard Rock

Trad climber

Montana

May 21, 2010 - 10:53am PT

No ropeburns on my hands.

Once had ropeburns on my lower back. Goldline rope. Hip belay. I was on top. Sitting down legs over the edge. Big guys - 6 feet 4 inches tall.
Painful but I held the fall.

Jaybro

Social climber

Wolf City, Wyoming

May 21, 2010 - 10:56am PT

yes. Burnt hands = f*#kedup®

johnboy

Trad climber

Can't get here from there

May 21, 2010 - 10:58am PT

I've never had rope burns either.

With the newer skinnier ropes that climbers are using nowadays, you might wish you had gloves if you ever have to catch a high FF fall.

rlf

Trad climber

Josh, CA

May 21, 2010 - 11:18am PT

"If someone decks, and the belayer has ropeburns on their hands, does not that somehow indicate that something went wrong with the belay?
I've never gotten rope burns on my hands belaying with a ATC or other, rappelling yes. But if you get rope burns, its because you were not tending the rope correctly.
I got jumped on on another climbing website for saying rope burns on the belayers hands are a smoking gun. They had a couple pieces of gear pull as well, but that should make no difference to the belayer who should just lock off. Just curious if there is something I am missing.....so go ahead, rip me a new one....."

Uhhh... errr.... uhhhh...

maldaly

Trad climber

Boulder, CO

May 21, 2010 - 11:27am PT

39 years of belaying and I haven't had the pleasure of rope burns.

- HOWEVER -

If you place any of the crop of manual belay devices in the UIAA/CE rope test system used to generate and evaluate factor 2 falls, it is virtually impossible to stop the fall, or even slow it down. Read the report on the UIAA website:http://www.theuiaa.org/advice_techniques_equipment.html The report is titled "Analysis of Belaying Techniques". Gloves won't help you stop the fall but may help prevent burns. Lesson? Don't ever put yourself in a position to catch a factor 2 fall.

- AND -

Whenever I hear about a locking assist belay device "failing" the belayer's guide hand, not her brake hand, is what got burned. If you squeeze the rope between the climber and the locking-assist device hard enough, you'll take so much energy out of the system that the device won't activate. Good video here: http://splitterclimbinggear.com/Locking_Assist_function.html Lesson? When catching a fall with a locking assist device, ignore all your instincts and let go with everything but your brake hand. Let it do it's thing.

Climb safe,
Mal

mooser

Trad climber

seattle

May 21, 2010 - 11:30am PT

I've only had rope burns once, and they were pretty nasty. My partner was leading the face to the right of Double Cross (now called a TR), and his #1 (?) Chouinard stopper got pulled out by rope drag--leaving him up about 40 or 45 feet, or so, unprotected. Seeing no other alternative, I flew up Double Cross till I was even with him, threw in a hex, ran the rope through the 'biner, and had him jump toward me while I reeled in as much slack as possible (no belay device--hip belay days). Kept him from decking, but DANG were my hands melty looking!

Otherwise, I've held lots of long falls, and never been burned once. Smoking hands = smoking gun.

Edit: interesting post, Maldaly. Thanks.

jfs

Trad climber

Upper Leftish

May 21, 2010 - 11:37am PT

eh? can't catch a factor 2 maldaly?

Caught my partner on a 2nd pitch fall onto the anchor (factor 1.9ish I guess - I had a directional a foot above the ATC) after his first piece pulled 15 feet out. Fall was 40ish feet. No rope burn except on the back of my hand where I got pulled into the lead line.

Significant differences in the force dynamics between a redirected belay and a true factor 2 I suppose. Maybe that's your point.

But to the OP...I'd say you're on target.

Mark Hudon

Trad climber

Hood River, OR

May 21, 2010 - 11:51am PT

I'd say SOMETHING went wrong. My guess would be the belayer was not paying attention when the leader fell. The rope started to slip through the system before the the belayer could grab it and got burned before he could lock it off.

You know, like if the belayer was also filming the climb. ;-)

RSpence

Trad climber

Tacoma, WA

May 21, 2010 - 12:03pm PT

No one is going to argue that rope burns shouldn't happen. The objection to your earlier post is the implication that a small rope burn on the belayer's hand was the "smoking gun"in an accident that occurred because an inexperienced leader fell high, on easily protected terrain, pulling two pieces of gear. The climber was finally caught by a cam only 10' off the belay which put the climber well below the anchor on a two pitch climb after bouncing off a ledge and hitting a slab below. Even a perfect belay couldn't have prevented hitting the ledge or the slab given the amount of rope out. The belayer caught the fall and the climber suffered broken bones in one arm. Do we really need to pollute a second forum with endless speculation because someone disagreed with your armchair assessment. It's the internet people will disagree with you and often times it's for sport.

Reilly

Mountain climber

The Other Monrovia- CA

May 21, 2010 - 12:14pm PT

Only thing smokin' 'round here ...

tom woods

Gym climber

Bishop, CA

May 21, 2010 - 12:36pm PT

Never been burned in 20 years, but I can't say that someone screwed up in the accident you are talking about cuz I don't know all the details.

As for belay gloves, while I don't own any, they do have a purpose. The Owens Gorge is all mussy hooks these days, which means black ropes covered in metallic grime.

Gloves help keep your hands from turning black. This seems reasonable. That grime is tough to clean off.

couchmaster

climber

pdx

May 21, 2010 - 12:41pm PT

38 years of climbing and no rope burns yet. Caught plenty of falls, not many with a hip belay fortunately but enough to know I can stop you with one.

Last lead fall was Ivan at 250 lbs or so just last month 3 or 4 pitches up on Beacon, he's friggan 6'6" or 6'7" tall. He was aiding, had stepped up and was fully relaxed and standing on a pin for a few min. which suddenly pulled @ 20 feet above me. Shocked the hell out of us both as he'd tested it first by heavily weighting it (the rock broke and flew). I got yoinked up from a hanging belay 2 feet or so. Despite being fat, and old, I still weight under 170# - no burns. ATC -thank the lord that wasn't a hip belay, but I would have caught him with one anyway.

I think Malcom nailed it above.

The last burn story I was involved in goes like this. My buddy showed up with his new girlfriend, a gym climber of several months, to a local practice area for some TR laps. She seemed insecure setting up the belay, so I wandered over and offered to do a backup belay (loosely holding the brake rope so as to not interfere, but in a position to yank it if needed). When she lowered him, she had a hard time doing it, but used her hands properly the whole time. So I showed them how to do 2 carabiners for more friction, and how to hold onto the rope with both hands when lowering, suggested she use his gloves, etc etc. The doubled/matched biners worked great the next time, and the back up belay wasn't even close to needed - but then I had to leave and missed the show that was about to happen. Buddy wanted one more lap, and the story is that they both forgot the 2 biner suggestion, and she forgot the 2 hands on the brake rope and the gloves thing. As she lowered him, when the rope started running faster and faster and burning her brake hand, she yelled Owwww - then totally let go of the rope and dropped him over 10 feet. Lucky for him he was almost down, that could have gone real real bad. According to him, she didn't seemed too bothered by it, but his mindset and trust was gone at that point.

I've told him my position of not climbing with folks who haven't been climbing for at least 2 seasons, and I think he might have adopted it. I was out just last Sat with him, and at one point was going to lower him a full pitch down, not to the ground as we were too high up off the deck, just to belay him back up so he could scope out a possible route. Despite having jugs to climb back up the rope if it was too hard, and me with a gri gri and redirect bolt above (and a jug to lock off the rope if needed), he had trouble trusting me and brought up this incident.

That's how broken ankle Chris got his nickname too. Trying to teach his girlfriend how to belay in the gym. Wham. (gri gri drop)

Wheatus

Trad climber

May 21, 2010 - 02:36pm PT

A friend of mine was climbing El Matador on Devil's Tower many years ago. His gear selection was rather meager and inappropriate for the climb. He was about 100 feet above his belay when he pitched off the wild stemming section of the climb. His belay partner watched in horror as numerous cams popped out as he fell. She quickly realized he would hit the ledge she was sitting on and frantically started reeling in rope. When the leader hit the end of the rope, held by a wired stopper, she locked off but she was facing into the wall on her right side. Her position against the wall made it impossible to fully lock off with her right hand and arm. She stopped the leader in an upside down fall one foot from the ledge. This resulted in second and third degree burns on her hands. The leader had a minor scalp laceration.

Analysis:

1) She saved his life because she reeled in rope during his fall.

2) Watch your belay position to make sure you have room to fully lock off the rope.

nutjob

Trad climber

Berkeley, CA

May 21, 2010 - 02:52pm PT

If folks don't pay attention to where the ropes are running on trad anchors, various rope-cluster issues can make it hard to fully lock off. I catch myself in this from time to time (e.g. the rope tied in at waist going taut to an anchor off right, and using my right hand to break; if it's a cramped hanging alcove belay, maybe not enough room to drop the arm and lock the ATC if the other rope is in the path of the drop motion. It's always manageable as long as the belayer pays attention, but I expect it would be the source of a fair number of accidents or longer belay falls than necessary.

p.s. I've never burned my hands and I think it would only happen while trying to recover from a screw-up.