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Hoots
climber
Tacoma, Toyota
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Topic Author's Original Post - Oct 8, 2009 - 11:37pm PT
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What hangers are people using for 1/4" or 5/16" buttonheads? Do standard hangers (petzl, metolius, etc) work, or is it a pretty sloppy fit?
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Greg Barnes
climber
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If you have the original 5/16" buttonheads, you'll need any modern hanger with a 3/8"/10mm hole.
For 1/4", I use old stainless SMCs with 5/16" holes that I pulled while replacing the 1/4" bolts. Since I do a ton of bolt replacement, I have a "free" source (free is a relative concept...). But a lot of those stretch and bend and smash before (or during) replacement, and loads have 1/4" holes (easy to rattail file out a bit to get the buttonheads through) or 3/8" holes (which are "undersized" 3/8" holes that don't quite fit the sleeve of a 5-piece bolt but do fit a 3/8" stud bolt).
Theron Moses makes a new little stainless hanger that works great, but they are pricey since he does such low volume. A minor downside for racking 1/4" bolts on lead - the hole is a tad large, so some 1/4" buttonheads will hold in them, and others will fall back out instead of staying put (although you can always use a little bit of duct tape to hold the bolt in).
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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the handful of Moses gear quarter hangers, pinch the split shaft really well. mine are all old skool tho, not new powers style.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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I found that 1.5" 1/4" buttonheads didn't stick in the moses hangers.
But luckily the 1.25" ones worked fine.
Mine are from some batches of 1/4" buttonheads from maybe 8-10 years ago or so.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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the old ones are the ones that stick?
yeah, mine are about that old too. left overs from working at Western retail shop.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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No, the short ones work, the long don't. Same general era.
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Jerry Dodrill
climber
Sebastopol, CA
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Yo Hoots,
Nice meeting you last weekend. Be in touch.
Cheers,
Jerry
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mikeyschaefer
climber
Yosemite
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I tried using the 1/4" Moses hangers recently but quickly realized normal 3/8" petzl, metolius or Fixe hangers worked better for my application.
I was placing 1/4" on lead and then pulling them with a tuning fork and replacing with 3/8". The Moses hangers are so soft and small they get totally mangled after one use. I started using a 3/8" hanger with a washer and could re-use them a few times and they were still fine.
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Mad Rock... with 5/16" washer...
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T Moses
Big Wall climber
Paso Robles
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I originally designed these as a lightweight hanger designed for backcountry stuff where 1/4 inchers would be placed. I thought they would work well for "lead and replace". Bryan said they were a little delicate (or something like that). Seems to me that these hangers don't fit the bill for "lead and replace" tactics. I will change my webpage later tonight to reflect this. They are still plenty strong for the applictaion I originally intended for them.
http://mosesclimbing.com/lightweight-14-bolt-hanger/
If there is enough demand I might make a burly hanger for "lead and replace". 5/16" bolt hole, room for one full size biner, minimal extra over all size. Maybe out of 4130 steel and then powder coated. Hmmm...whatdaya think?
Mikey: I am sorry that you aren't happy with the hangers. Contact me so I can make it right with you. If you still have the hangers I would like to see them.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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I haven't put up anything that hard that I couldn't hook and place a 3/8ths.
But if you are stance only, then the harder steel might make sense.
what would be the difference in weight?
right now I have on BC project in mind that I'm only going to place quarters on to save weight.
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T Moses
Big Wall climber
Paso Robles
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It's when you remove them that they get distorted. Placing shouldn't be an issue. The lightweight hanger is currently half the weight of the Petzl Couer. 23 grams. I am considering beefing it up slightly.
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Salamanizer
Trad climber
Vacaville Ca,
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How about an oldschool style metal strip type hanger for the (removable) 1/4in bolts? Y'all know what I'm talking about, the kind of hangers you find on old obscure routes throughout the country fastened with the old star drive bolts. They're easy to make, lightweight, easy to get a bar or tuning fork under and best of all, cheap to make.
Moses, I'm sure you could produce something like that which could retail in the sub $2.00 range, but what do I know about that. I know I can make em for about a buck a pop, but I wouldn't mind paying a little for some refinement, quality (control) steel and the fact that "I didn't have to make it".
Anyone ever pull test the old 3/16 in aluminum ones? Seem pretty bomber and lightweight to boot. Just a thought.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Oct 10, 2009 - 03:25am PT
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^^^ Yeah and they double as Bottle openers.
Lightweight aluminum ones are pretty strong, and easy to pull.
T what about busting something out this winter eh?
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Hoots
climber
Tacoma, Toyota
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 10, 2009 - 11:58am PT
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Sal, originally thats what I was trying to find. I've seen some Pika hanger that fit the bill but haven't been able to locate any. I'll just go with the washer trick to make some hangers work. Thanks guys.
That would be sweet Theron, make a "safe" version of the Tooey beer top hangers that Darryl Hatten was prototyping! I smell a niche market!
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mikeyschaefer
climber
Yosemite
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Oct 11, 2009 - 05:34pm PT
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T Moses, no worries on the hangers. Can't actually say I am unhappy with them. I think I was just using them a little outside of their design scope.
They would work great for permanent placement just not for repetitive pulling and placing.
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Slabby D
Trad climber
B'ham WA
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Hey Theron why did you use stainless steel for the 1/4" hanger when buttonheads are all carbon steel. Won't this lead to accelerated corrosion?
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T Moses
Big Wall climber
Paso Robles
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Slabby,
I have given this some thought but haven't come to a conclusion yet. The stainless is strong in the as worked condition and doesn't corrode. The drawback is the galvanic corrosion you mentioned. The drawback of a "regular" steel is that most of the time it needs to be heat treated to be strong enough to be a viable option for a hanger. Leeper had problems with his 4130 steel hangers that I would like to avoid. Certain plating procedures (for corosion resistance) have bad side effects on heat treated parts. I have thought of using 4130 in the "normalized" state (harder than the "annealed" state but not heat treated). I need to test it. I'm thinking of building my own testing rig (a la Aric Datesman's from RC.com). I am also considering revamping the design. Slightly thicker material (0.125) and 1/16" larger outside dimensions are options I'm weighing.
I have a bunch of stuff "in the works". Big hooks, Tomahawk #2, and stuff I'd have to kill you if I told you about (SLURP's & friction hooks). Shhh...it's a secret.
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Slabby D
Trad climber
B'ham WA
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...big hooks?....you're going to work everyone into a frenzy talking like that.
Thanks for the reply. Knowing nothing about metallurgy it'd interesting to see how many constraints you're working with. I guess you could always powdercoat the stainless?
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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If you are talking mild steel, split shaft and bent shaft buttonhead bolts are inherently unfit for climbing use. Period....Why doesn't everybody just stop pretending otherwise. Even though I dislike the design, dinky stainless wedge anchors would be better and in the same price range by the box if you are drilling lots of small holes.
If you are using a stainless buttonhead design, are you using Powers or some other brand?
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Steve, aside from the obvious problem of 1/4" wedge bolts being non-removable (they will break off in the hole) - which by itself means that anyone hand drilling on lead and going back to replace wouldn't ever use them - why do you assert that they would be better?
Powers data for 1/4" Drives (split-shaft buttonheads) - ultimate load:
shear - 2090
tension - 1760
And for 1/4" Power-studs - same for carbon steel or stainless:
shear - 1620
tension - 1740
Especially considering that shear is what matters for climbing use when hand drilling on slab...
If it's because that type of steel (heat treated AISI 1018 steel) is likely to fracture, then I can believe you considering that one of Mineral's bolts just fell out due to a fracture, but on the other hand how many were placed over how many years with few cases of that?
Regardless, no one wants to be leaving 1/4" stud bolts broken off in the hole...much better to consider something else entirely like the Hilti Coil bolts (say...Norman or Brian B....did you ever funk test those suckers up in Tuolumne this year?). 1/4" Hilti Coil bolts are rated (assuming 1" embedment):
shear - 2625
tension - 2460
although 3/4" embedment:
shear - 1610
tension - 1595
Hilti coils: http://www.us.hilti.com/holus/modules/prcat/prca_navigation.jsp?OID=-12371
I'm interested in your take on all this - especially since I use 1/4" buttonheads a lot, and I have a growing list of ones that I haven't gotten back to replace (naughty me...kind of hard to find the time right now though...).
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Forgot to mention - the Drives are only made in carbon steel, stainless would be too soft. The bent-shaft 1/4" Spike bolts are available in stainless, but are SUPER weak - Minerals funk tested them and they pulled like butter.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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I have written extensively on this forum about my concern with split shafts. The problem is stress fracturing due to hydrogen embrittlement and other factors where the metal is tortured (stressed) twice at the split. The test data for nice new bolts is not the issue.
I have been drilling 3/8" X 2 1/2" or deeper holes for decades. It just takes committment and practice to do it properly the first time. If the issue is really finding some way to drill small on the FA and then come back and pluck and redrill to finish the route then here are some thoughts.
The only parts of the tiny collar that actually contacts stone are the two bumps. If you alternate applying outward pressure short of breaking the shaft with the occasional inward blow to wear those two bumps down the bolt will come out intact. If you have ever had to remove blue Powers 5 piece bolts when grit has caused the cone to lock up then you have to do the same thing if you want to get the entire bolt out in one piece. Overdrill the hole a bit so that the broken fragment can be pushed past the collar and retrieved with a magnet (if mild steel) or drilled out. Very worst case, a second hole would be needed.
The inability of that collar to bite under tension especially in soft rock, a sloppy hole or under constant cycles of loading in an overhanging installation concerns me deeply. Equally, the cross sectional twist shearing that acts on the body of the bolt during the threading process stresses the metal exactly where the load is applied by the bolt hanger and where the cross sectional area is reduced especially in a bolt 3/8" diameter or smaller. A 3/8" shaft is actuall 5/16" in the threaded area.
Most of the bolts that we are using are not designed for climbing. The manufacturers don't want anything to do with us as a group. Unfortunately, bolts that are designed for the kinds of service loads that we are imposing on them are necessarily big ones.
I used to be the board chair of the Climbing Wall Industry Group while that organization existed and a 3/8" grade 5 bolt barely pencils out as adequate for stopping repeated hard falls on artificial climbing walls!
For a temporary bolt, a 5/16" Taperbolt ala JB would be better.
The word needs to get out to stop using split shaft bolts if they are going to be left behind. That is my main point. If you don't believe me then perhaps Ed Leeper's opinion will sway you. He wrote an article way back against their use. Unfortunately, I never saw that article until recently and have placed lots of the little timebombs. The light came on for me while I was rappeling down the Nose and came across a lone split shaft stud. It served no purpose that I could determine so I decided to chop it so that it wouldn't rip open somebody's haulbag. One blow up and one blow down and it sailed off into the air. I looked at the remaining portion of the bolt in the hole and almost all of it was covered in rust right at the split point where the bolt had sheared. My heart sank because I had totally wasted my time and energy believing that I was placing big bomber bolts when they are crap.
Ask yourself honestly, if you are really going to pluck and redrill properly with all fat stainless bolts immediately.....or not?
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Hey Steve,
I'm talking bomber granite only, typically low angle to vertical. And yes, I replace 90% of mine with stainless 5-piece, often the same day the 1/4" went in. And I lead with a 3/8" drill and a 1/4" drill, so from good stances (or hooks) I drill 3/8".
But I do have to admit that I sometimes take a bit to get back to some that are a pain. Actually I just checked and my list has 63 quarter-inchers that I haven't replaced, but the majority are on extremely obscure (no info anywhere) stuff, and most of the ones left on routes that people do are very low fall factor locations (I try to replace higher fall factor locations first).
I checked the Hilti info and the 1/4" coils are case hardened AISI 1018.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Nov 13, 2009 - 04:55am PT
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Just an idea about using 304 stainless hangers on plain steel rivets:
If you heat 304 with a torch, the chromium combines with carbon as carbides, reducing the oxidation resistance. What's left at the heat-affected zone is a metal more like a 4130. It will get surface rust, but won't go cancerous like a plain steel.
If just the holes in stainless hangers were heated with a torch to create a heat-affected zone, the carbides would precipitate there, at the point of contact with the rivet. The galvanic reaction there would be reduced, but the rest of the hanger would be the original, cold-worked 304 stainless.
On the other hand, who leaves their hangers on the rivets long enough for galvanic corrosion to take place? Chongo, on his legendary Sea of Dreams ascent?
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