Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
|
|
|
Oct 18, 2009 - 04:00am PT
|
It would be colossal hubris to claim a universal consciousness upon such meager knowledge of what the universe actually is… ..
If one accepts that mystery is at the heart of spiritual experience, then why is it hubris to say that one believes in a Consciousness beyond our comprehension precisely because of the size and beauty of the universe and the fact that science is silent on the subject of causation? Is it not also faith to believe that someday scientists will be able to explain it all and that it will have a purely physical explanation?
My favorite example along these lines is Francis Crick, the Nobel laureate for codiscovering DNA and vehement atheist, who in 1981, wrote a book called, Life Itself: Its Origin and Nature, in which he pointed out the very interesting fact that we find the amino acid building blocks of DNA on meteors floating through the universe. He then extrapolates that their source is an advanced civilization that we know nothing about which has seeded the universe with amino acid covered meteors as part of a giant experiment to see if they could start life on other planets. He even gave this imagined experiment the name of panspermia. So meteor flinging spacemen or God, which is more irrational?
Now it seems to me (and I say this in general, certainly not about you personally, and definitely tongue in cheek), that if they aren't careful, scientists could be setting themselves up to be the new high priests of the age with the same predictable results as the last set.
|
|
Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
|
|
|
Oct 18, 2009 - 05:12am PT
|
I can live with that, better than having those pesky Ferengi in charge of everything....
Jan, Back to Basque-ics. I've read mention of that language thing a few times, and I assume that the geographical ur-home of the Basques coinciding with a rich center of Neanderthal culture has to do with it. It would be fascinating to know more about those other linguistic isolates, you mention....
Language reflects so much about a culture, and if we could quiz neanderthals it would perhaps tell us much about our relatives, whether or not they are exactly, 'people'.
In Russian there is no verb 'to be' in the present tense. You don't say "I am a doctor", in that tongue, you say "I Doctor". But the 'am' is implied by the context. It is at once more direct without being uncouth the way it sounds in English. I tend to think of it as a closer association with the person and the condition, or state of being. Perhaps a reflection or expression of the universal conscienseness you mention. [not sure where chronic inability to spell, comes in]
In Russian, the first line of Notes from the Underground, (Dostoyevsky) sounds like "Ya Bolyen";two words, a personal pronoun and a conditional, that together, suggest, "i am sick." To my ear this puts the person and the condition much closer together than when you say it in English, or the way it is said in romance languages, to my understanding, anyway.
just a couple examples.
|
|
Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
|
|
|
Oct 18, 2009 - 10:52am PT
|
Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand; do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God. And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. What you have learned and received and heard and seen in me—practice these things, and the God of peace will be with you.
It is a gift of God!
|
|
Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 18, 2009 - 11:16am PT
|
Gobee, what is your point in posting these constant biblical passages?
Are you evangelical, trying to "convert" people here to your belief system?
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Oct 18, 2009 - 11:45am PT
|
to be a scientists, to learn science, to add to the scientific "cannon," all of these things can be done as a matter of choice by the individual wishing to do them...
there are no vows, no received wisdom, no divine edict of a chosen
anyone can become a scientist, anyone can do science
science is not silent on "causation" which I interpret is how this all came to be, this bit of universe that we are aware off, nor of the origins of life, nor of consciousness. All these things fall in the domain of science too, as scientists will ask their questions and pursue the answer. The answers are incomplete and provisional, and do not satisfy most people's needs for an answer. In some cases the answers are unwelcome and dismissed as counter to human experience and intuition.
many times science is seen as the destroyer of the spiritual, of cold mathematical logic which drains the mystery or the mysticism out of our experience, drains the meaning out of that experience.
science should not become a religion, I believe that it cannot become a religion and remain science. On the other hand, science is done by people, and that brings in the full range of personalities and human foibles. That cannot be avoided, but it need not deter the activity of science.
|
|
Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
|
|
|
Oct 18, 2009 - 12:04pm PT
|
"no received wisdom, "
Doesn't one recieve (?) wisdom through research?
|
|
Flanders!
Trad climber
June Lake, CA
|
|
|
Oct 18, 2009 - 12:11pm PT
|
Definition of an atheist: one who rebels against the truth and knowingly deceives himself. Doesn't seem like a good position to be in.
"For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities - his eternal power and divine nature - have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."
flanders
|
|
Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
|
Oct 18, 2009 - 12:36pm PT
|
I believe that "Ferenghi" was mainly used in its original sense by the mainly Muslim peoples and countries from north India across to Anatolia and then south the east coast of Africa. Particularly in southwest Asia in the Middle East, it was a term of approbation. The farther one went from the area of the Crusades, the more it became simply a term meaning "European" or even "foreigner", and the less it carried the military and religious connotations. Its widespread use is fascinating. I wonder if there is a definitive essay on its etymology somewhere?
|
|
Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 18, 2009 - 01:37pm PT
|
Definition of an god believer: one who rebels against the truth and knowingly deceives himself. Doesn't seem like a good position to be in.
|
|
Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
|
|
|
Oct 18, 2009 - 01:38pm PT
|
Amen! Kinda
|
|
apogee
climber
|
|
|
Oct 18, 2009 - 01:43pm PT
|
This thread has as much potential to change the world view of others as does the 'Repubs are Wrong' thread- 12,000 posts later, everyone is still sprayin' the same sh#t.
Carry on.
|
|
Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
|
|
|
Oct 18, 2009 - 03:38pm PT
|
It is impossible for man to come up to the level of God consciousness,( the water from the cup and the ocean being the same) just because you are here. The Jews, even though they were the people God chose to reveal Himself to, are not saved just because they are Jews! You are not saved because you have more checks in the good column. You can't blame God, circumstances, other people, or Satin, for your deeds, but you have to admit your own guilt, it's in are fallen corrupt nature to fall short of the glory of God.
Nothing in are flesh is good. God looks at your heart, He wants pure desires, character, not just good deeds.
Jesus offers us a fresh start, a new birth, we can't do it on are own!
Psalm 51
Create in Me a Clean Heart, O God
To the choirmaster. A Psalm of David, when vNathan the prophet went to him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba.
Have mercy on me, O God,
according to your steadfast love;
according to your abundant mercy
blot out my transgressions.
Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity,
and cleanse me from my sin!
For I know my transgressions,
and my sin is ever before me.
Against you, you only, have I sinned
and done what is evil in your sight,
so that you may be justified in your words
and blameless in your judgment.
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Behold, you delight in truth in the inward being,
and you teach me wisdom in the secret heart.
Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean;
wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
Let me hear joy and gladness;
let the bones that you have broken rejoice.
Hide your face from my sins,
and blot out all my iniquities.
Create in me a clean heart, O God,
and renew a right spirit within me.
Cast me not away from your presence,
and take not your Holy Spirit from me.
Restore to me the joy of your salvation,
and uphold me with a willing spirit.
Then I will teach transgressors your ways,
and sinners will return to you.
Deliver me from blood guiltiness, O God,
O God of my salvation,
and my tongue will sing aloud of your righteousness.
O Lord, open my lips,
and my mouth will declare your praise.
For you will not delight in sacrifice, or I would give it;
you will not be pleased with a burnt offering.
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise.
Do good to Zion in your good pleasure;
build up the walls of Jerusalem;
then will you delight in right sacrifices,
in burnt offerings and whole burnt offerings;
then bulls will be offered on your altar.
Jesus is the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world!
|
|
Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
|
|
|
Oct 18, 2009 - 04:09pm PT
|
Back from my own personal "Bermuda Triangle" of Orange County, The Desert and San Diego and able to access the ethernet again. Difficult to keep up with you all when I'm gone for hours, days at a time.
Thank you John Long for answering my question. JL wrote 10-17 at 7:42 p.m., "this is the great misconception about spirituality, that the meat of it is purely subjective, man made brain generated and that if you "know" otherwise that knowing is either based on a belief or a subjective state."
So if I "get" what you are saying.......Song of Songs, Beatitudes and Sermon on the Mount are beyond "a subjective amalgam, a feeling or a mood."
JL also indicates that many conclude that objective provides the foundation for higher subjective functions.
So this is my take living life on this planet observing, living and learning. To me The Sermon on the Mount is objective in nature and if objective is "lower" or "foundational" yes then the Sermon on the Mount is that.
I say this because if each human used TSOTM as foundation for living out a life in practicality on a day by day basis the world as we experience it would be absolutely, totally different than how it has evolved up to today.
For instance, "the meek will inherit the earth." See also Ps. 37 and Genesis 1:28.....God's intent was that the human race take responsibility for the environment and the other creatures that inhabit our planet. God was careful how he made all, we need to be equally careful how we take care of it. Destroying the earth and it's resources was not what God had in mind.
There are many foundational truths in TSOTM. I like Matthew 5:23,24. It talks about bringing a gift to God. When you do that and remember that your brother has something against you.....you are to leave the gift and go and reconcile with your brother and then come back and offer your gift.
What wisdom. It struck me one day that leaving your gift there pretty much forced you to deal with the issue at once and come back...leaving the gift commits you to finish the act of reconciliation. As much as you can on your part of course.
My life has been incredibly blessed because of (as really difficult as it was !!!!) forgiving and reconciling.....even when I was sometimes the wronged one. This is why I think these are foundational truths......
Anyway, I'm kinda simple. I could have Totally and Completely misinterpreted JL's statement...... oh well, :D lynne
|
|
Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
|
|
|
Oct 18, 2009 - 04:19pm PT
|
"It is impossible for man to come up to the level of God consciousness,"
now you hold yourself in such high esteem that you presume to know the mind of god?
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
|
|
|
Oct 18, 2009 - 04:20pm PT
|
Craig wrote: "So suppose you get quiet, you go into a cave, lock yourself in, and for 30 years you nothing except meditate on God, and the unknowing
1000s of people have done that, and still can not say anything more about God than we can now. They still don't know if there is a God or not.
So if you do everything possible to experinece God, and you end up the same, only knowing that he may or may not exist
and in addition, God is not needed for anything, since he is NO thing, he may have or have not created the universe, he may have or have not created man in his image
Why do we have to say there is God at all, and why must we strive to Know him.
Wouldn't it be better to just say there is NO God, and focus on things that are real, like knowing your mind
And if there is a God, I, like Ed, want to find out all about him, how he created the earth, life,
You can not say there is something, GOD, that does this and that, then say I can not know about that."
The problem with all of this is that yo are not really involved in any kind of inquiry here at all. You already have a rigid answer in your head per all of your "questions," and all you're doing is arguing on their behalf and looking for cohorts or confederates to vouchsafe what you think you already "know."
Fact is, you're mainly arguing against a material representation of God, or against old Biblical metaphors that were never meant to be viewed as historical facts, or ranting about vicious and ignorant folk attached to organized religion. So what. Where does that leave you? Did it ever occur to you that your entire approach is off base? The 1,000s of people who went to caves (who does that nowdays???) and got quite - you're simply not impressed because they did not return with a "God" that fit your description, one you can "know" by your evaluating mind.
In dismissing all things spiritual, you're actually betting against yourself, which is a shame. You're arguing about not "needing" God (a very slippery term) but in my experience, it is all hooked up with being, which is not something that is going to replace your evaluation of how matter behaves in the universe.
Again, there IS an objective aspect to the unseen - it's worth persuing.
JL
|
|
Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
|
|
|
Oct 18, 2009 - 04:34pm PT
|
I just read Dr. F's comments also. Craig says," so if you do everything possible to experience God, and you end up the same ...only knowing that he may or may not exist....."
Craig, if indeed you DO everything possible to know God.....you will !
God is written in our hearts. Why do you think you even care ? Or anyone cares or posts on this thread. If it didn't mean something inside our core being these threads would go nowhere. :D
Favorite simple sentence of mine, I consider it a bonafide promise, "Draw near to God and he will draw near to you." James 4:8
And
"The Lord is near to All who call on him, to all who call on him in truth."
Psalm 145:18
Peace always and Joy, Lynne
Edit: one does not need to be quiet in a cave. It can happen anywhere. Of course alone in the middle of the Eastern Sierra's near a body of H20 is certainly my choice. Cheers !
Edit II: Ed H. says anyone can be a scientist. Ed this is lynne here, did you Really mean anyone ? :D
|
|
Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 18, 2009 - 04:41pm PT
|
Quote some more bible stuff, Gobee - how many have you converted so far?
|
|
Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
|
|
|
Oct 18, 2009 - 04:46pm PT
|
What is a scientist?
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Oct 18, 2009 - 05:24pm PT
|
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suazwrc2RPU
Jaybro - a practitioner of the scientific method (?)
Lynne - yep, anyone, the collected body of knowledge is available to all, to access it you've got to learn the language, which is also available. Nothing prevents you from getting at any of this stuff.
|
|
Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
|
|
|
Oct 18, 2009 - 05:25pm PT
|
"A person learned in science; a scientific investigator."
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!