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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 11, 2009 - 09:39am PT
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GO climb-
In regard to your last set of questions:
I went back and watched the video on the big bang of the mind again and reread some fossil data to be sure I had my dates right. Consequently, I think your questions are based on a misunderstanding of some of the dates (in fact I had to back up the video track several times to make sure I understood them correctly).
Homo erectus was extinct by 400,000 years ago not 70,000
Homo heidelbergensis was 500,00 - 200,000
Homo habilis, H. ergaster, and H. rhodensiensis are are all specimens whose place is not entirely understood and are controversial.
Homo sapiens is dated 195,000 from Africa first
Homo sapiens did not leave Africa until 50,000 (the most agreed upon date) and not earlier than 60,0000 (you had 100,000).
The narrator of the video states "60,000 years ago our species began leaving Africa....they had begun a revolutionary way of life". Later Prof. Klein from Stanford stated, "50,000 years ago a neurological change took place, perhaps the result of a mutation".
Whether the neurological change took place at 50,000 or 60,000, the assumption by everyone on the video and everything I have read, is that the change took place in Africa before H. sapiens left. The video states the oldest beads are found in the Middle East, but subsequently beads dated at 70,000 were found in Africa.
The video claims the oldest rock art known is 34,000 from the caves in France and that this art represented a breakthrough (in art) not in the brain.
A really wonderful video about the journey out of Africa that I would highly recommend is produced by PBS and is called The Human Journey. It features Spencer Wells who is now working for National Geographic on the Genographic DNA project and follows him as he first visits the Bushmen of the Kalahari desert in Africa who are the oldest surviving human group on the planet at this point in time, through the Middle East to Eurasia, Europe, Siberia, and the Americas. It's my all time favorite anthro video and you'll come away from it in total awe of our ancestors and proud to be a human.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Oct 11, 2009 - 10:09am PT
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HowweirdDean, bull sh#t. my reading comprehension is fine. Atheism = mass murder, is that not what she wrote after the 'diatribe' she posted? I read her post just fine and I am familiar with her other posts in the past.
I was born and baptized a Catholic, grew up and became an agnostic and I am now an atheist, and some person says that my belief equals mass murder? Perhaps it is your comprehension that should come into question.
If I recall correctly, freedom of expression and religion (or not) was one of the Founding Fathers' guiding principles.
And if calling her weird is name calling, so be it. Nah nah nah nah nah. :-)
EDIT
How much has religion played a part in all the wars that human kind have gone through? And how many deaths? And Atheism = mass murder???????
Go figure. And go bow before the likes of Robertson and Falwell. Unless I am mistaken (totally possible but unlikely) Jennie worships these people. Heh heh heh. Go to bed HowweirdDean.
It is actually sunny here today, sort of, so I am going climbing. Now you brush your teeth, say your prayers and go to bed. Or tele-transport yourself to Dalkey and we'll go climbing together. Cheers.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Oct 11, 2009 - 10:23am PT
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That does is Howweird, I am going on a mass killing spree. Every bloody slug and snail in my yard has had it.
Lighten up, I'm having fun, how about you?
Now I am off to the rocks (just a couple of minutes away), having just put a leg of lamb in the oven (horrors). I know the quarry will be packed today, as it is more or less sunny (okay, there are some clouds, actually a lot of clouds) but it is dry, a weekend and the crags get packed under these conditions. So I will just boulder, and know that I am fortunate to live within walking distance to a good climbing area.
Now you can comprehend that, can't you? See you on the stone someday mate (if I can call you 'mate').
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wack-N-dangle
Gym climber
the ground up
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Oct 11, 2009 - 10:28am PT
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I am God. I created everything. Debate over, now please carry on.
But seriously, people create and destroy god all the time. How can that not exist?
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Oct 11, 2009 - 10:34am PT
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hey wack n dangle, are you sure it isn't dangle and wack?
I do miss California but Ireland isn't that bad. But Yosemite is the Chosen Place. Sort of.
EDIT
Anyway, even though I do not know her, except through her posts, I like Jennie, if for no other reason but she spells her name that same as 'my' Jennie. I believe in people, not religions, and there are a whole lot of good people on the Taco Stand.
It is sort of funny though that when I was nine I wanted to be the first American Pope. Guess that's not going to happen (I was an altar boy at the time, and no, the priests did not molest me).
When I was ten I wanted to be an astronaut. That doesn't look promising either.
I guess I am always looking to the heavens for one reason or another.
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wack-N-dangle
Gym climber
the ground up
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Oct 11, 2009 - 10:40am PT
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Pat
Played my hand aid climbing. Now I just throw for holds, slap them if lucky, and rest on the rope.
Cheers!
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jstan
climber
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Oct 11, 2009 - 11:56am PT
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"Religion attracts desperate individuals in a society because it offers them comfort. And desperate people are much more likely to commit crimes than those who are not desperate. But desperate people tend to ignore the ethics and "do unto others" part of religion, thus aren't truly converted or commited to a religious faith."
It seems to me Jennie is saying here desperate people are more likely to commit crimes
but (she thinks) they don't follow the golden rule and so are not really religious.
Through this evaluation of her's you can logically prove the conclusion that any "religious" person who commits a crime is not really religious.
What am I missing?
An even larger number of people, all non-criminals in both categories, probably fall into the category of those not following the golden rule, assuming one could come up with a method of determining the fact.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 11, 2009 - 12:42pm PT
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I don't quite know how to respond, John, except to say that not only did I fail your elementary course, but I wasn't very attentive in my physics classes, either...
thanks for you patience over the years. My conclusion is that I do not and cannot understand any of it.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 11, 2009 - 01:47pm PT
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What holds true today will be false tomorrow.
What holds false tomorrow will again hold true in the future.
Absolute truth holds true eternally even after the annihilation of the entire material cosmic manifestation.
After the restart of the entire material cosmic manifestation the Absolute truth still holds true and never changes.
The Absolute truth, Summon Bonum, in it's absolute topmost position is a person.
The human body is composed of many material elements, still it's a person.
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 11, 2009 - 02:00pm PT
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It's fun believing in the Easter bunny and the tooth fairy too. Gives one a certain peace of mind.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 11, 2009 - 02:15pm PT
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The absolute truth never changes. I agree. It's a thought of not only comfort but great peace and joy when grasped by the heart or as eastern thought calls it the chee.
It's a thought that brings sanity out of the chaos of this planet. Chaos that can begin as simply as a harsh word between brothers which ignited turns into an inferno because it is not smothered with forgiveness. It has the potential to thus end in holocausts, body bombs, wars and nuclear attacks.
I'd venture to say that the concept of forgiveness is an absolute truth.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 11, 2009 - 02:47pm PT
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Jim, I respectfully disagree. I don't think forgiveness comes soley from a learned creed. I have read a few books on primitive cultures. Depicted were the differences between tribes that held grudges and handed them down for generations vs. those that chose to "forgive", get past the hurt, problem or not bear a grudge or retaliate.
One is never obliged to forgive. It must come from the chee or heart.
It is something each individual must work out in their own situation, in their own life unfolding story, imho.
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Oct 11, 2009 - 03:35pm PT
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Patrick Sawyer, you really did either misread, or worse - purposefully misrepresent - what Jennie stated.
GO
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Oct 11, 2009 - 04:12pm PT
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Jan - thanks so much, again, for your response! Seems like there's a lot of disagreement, yet, on a few of the details. Especially regarding H. Erectus. Some sources stated that the species died out 70,000 years ago, some say 200,000 years ago, and you're stating 400,000 years ago. That's a big discrepancy!
Anyway, yeah, so I just re-watched parts of the video, and I agree that they're pretty clear about the first waves of H. Sapiens leaving Africa around 60,000 years ago, and the best evidence for the "great leap forward" starting around 50,000 years ago. That's much closer than I was stating, and certainly close enough to leave wiggle room for the idea that the humans leaving Africa were already "great leaping", we just haven't happened to have found early evidence for it yet.
GO
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 11, 2009 - 04:36pm PT
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On Discovery TV tonight @ 9:00 pm Discovering Ardi will be on.
Werner is right, we know in part so what we think is right can change with new info and back again with more. But absolute truth never changes and that is God. When we come to be with Him are hope, we will be changed to be like Him.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 11, 2009 - 05:07pm PT
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The Ascension
So when they had come together, they asked him, “Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.” And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”
The Resurrection of Christ
Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me. For I am the least of the apostles, unworthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me. Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.
The Resurrection of the Dead
Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied.
But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.
Otherwise, what do people mean by being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf? Why are we in danger every hour? I protest, brothers, by my pride in you, which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die every day! What do I gain if, humanly speaking, I fought with beasts at Ephesus? If the dead are not raised, “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.” Do not be deceived: "Bad company ruins good morals.” Wake up from your drunken stupor, as is right, and do not go on sinning. For some have no knowledge of God. I say this to your shame.
The Resurrection Body
But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?” You foolish person! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain. But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body. For not all flesh is the same, but there is one kind for humans, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish. There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is of one kind, and the glory of the earthly is of another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.
So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.
Mystery and Victory
I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:
“Death is swallowed up in victory.”
“O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?”
The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Therefore, my beloved brothers, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Oct 11, 2009 - 05:25pm PT
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Now may be the appropriate time to repost something that shows up here in religious discussions from time to time. Its origin is attributed to various sources, but doesn't really matter. The heart of it is that while Christians (and Jews, and Muslims, and others) often quote their holy book as final authority in whatever subject is being debated, they ignore the fact that much of what is in these books is, well, questionable to say the least.
The generally accepted story is that it first showed up as a letter to the well-known talk-show host Dr. Laura in response to her quoting the bible as proof that homosexuality was an abomination.
If, after reading this, one of you religious folks could explain to me why I should take the bible (or any of the holy books) seriously, I'd sure appreciate it.
Anyway, here goes...
"Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other specific laws and how to follow them:
When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15:19- 24. The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?
I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?
A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?
Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?
Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?
I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? - Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.
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Okay, the letter is kind of humorous, but I would appreciate a serious response.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 11, 2009 - 05:34pm PT
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Well, as a serious response....my friend jesus came to this planet and made it clear with his arrival the old things were finished, the law that you quoted from the old testament was replaced by two things.....to love God and to love your neighbor.....who is your neighbor....everyone.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Oct 11, 2009 - 05:41pm PT
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So does that mean (in your opinion) that the old testament part of the bible is no longer authoritative, while the new testament part is still to be accepted without question?
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 11, 2009 - 06:11pm PT
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Ghost,
Jesus is God's Son in the flesh, who came to take away the sins of the world and give us life. We all need His forgiveness, for example, all sins of the flesh separates us from His Spirit. The body is the temple of the Holy Spirit. So adultery, fornication, and homosexuality, are equally grieving God's Spirit. We can't continue in these life styles and stay in His will. But He is faithful and forgives us all when we ask Him to in Jesus name. You can live for the flesh, or you can live for God, but we need to do it in His power not are own.
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