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mrtropy
Trad climber
Nor Cal
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Topic Author's Original Post - Sep 30, 2009 - 11:00pm PT
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After thread drift
This time much quieter than the first protest. Very few of the right wing nuts I talked to the cameramen and there was disappointment, They wanted some action. There were at least six news vans there. It is a very important issue. The separation of church and state. If you live in the central valley it was the lead story on many stations. A buddy of mine was on station 10, my daughter and I were interviewed or photographed by The Record, the Lodi News Sentinel , The LA Times, The Sacramento Bee, a local JC paper and the New York Times. (very cute reporter)Had to miss the meeting to get the kid home to dinner. More tomorrow.
Give the kid a break he made the sign that spelled separate wrong- They both go to Spanish Immersion school they both speak fluent Spanish. Its the thought that counts.
MY daughter and best friend
Kids and the news vans
DMT I figured that you had a "kid" in Lodi after one of her posts.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Sep 30, 2009 - 11:07pm PT
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I'm a bit troubled at the politicization of you kids, dude.
Lodi is not a Christian community? Says who? You?
Have you declared it a non-religious zone?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Sep 30, 2009 - 11:10pm PT
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Are they really preachers of hate?
What hateful things did the preachers preach?
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Sep 30, 2009 - 11:13pm PT
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Which part of "separation of church and State" confuses you Blue?
Seems the founding Fathers were clear and concise on this topic (and the 2nd amendment, etc... ). Where is the problem following the Constitution on THIS issue?
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mrtropy
Trad climber
Nor Cal
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2009 - 11:14pm PT
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"I'm a bit troubled at the politicization of you kids, dude.
Lodi is not a Christian state? "
your kids not you kids, Christian Community not Christian state, kid not kids- now that we got things straight. My 11 year made her own choice, one of her grandmothers and one of her grandfathers are Christians. We did not make her come. Her brother chose not to. She decided on her own. Forgive for giving her a choice. Put away the bottle before you comment.
Proud Father.
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mrtropy
Trad climber
Nor Cal
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2009 - 11:21pm PT
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Glad to see you caught your mistake. Now it will look like I made one. The preacher of hate did not show up from Colorado Springs, and the hate group from LA did not either. Chaplain Gordon James Klingenschmitt is one of the names, he was here last time. Goggle his name.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Sep 30, 2009 - 11:24pm PT
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Good for them! Be PROUD!!!!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Sep 30, 2009 - 11:28pm PT
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//Which part of "separation of church and State" confuses you Blue?
//
Why don't we clarify how the separation was violated first...Somebody???
Post some details. All I see is children denouncing Christianity. What happend, Mrtropy?
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GDavis
Trad climber
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Sep 30, 2009 - 11:30pm PT
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Hey at least they have thick skin.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Sep 30, 2009 - 11:32pm PT
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Hey Davis, STFU!!!
I expect to see you at Jtree this year for T-day. No excuses!!!!
I will call God on ya if you bail!
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Sep 30, 2009 - 11:33pm PT
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Okay, Blue, I'll bite.
WHICH church's prayers were they saying before the meeting?
Catholic, Protestant, Hebrew, Muslim, Shinto, etc....
Hmmm, maybe the FF's didn't want to enter the arena of deciding WHICH prayer to allow, so they "banned" (read, separated) them out. Although, as long as the word "GOD" is in there, it seemed to matter not.
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mrtropy
Trad climber
Nor Cal
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2009 - 11:39pm PT
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Not "denouncing Christianity" just keeping it out of the City Council meetings. What about the 5,000 Muslims in my town, the 1,000 Buddhists, a couple of hundred Hindus, The 1,000 Sikhs and the 30 Jewish people. Not say any thing about people who have no religion. We just asked for a moment of silence rather rather than a prayer using the name Jesus Christ. Even our local main stream churches do not have a problem, it's just a few wackos talking in tongues. Maybe you want to cram your beliefs down your kids' or kid's throat(s) but I give mine a choice and we don't always agree.
Proud Dad
and she climbs
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Sep 30, 2009 - 11:40pm PT
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Mojede, I'm asking what the uproar is about...I don't know! Can somebody tell me why this is a big deal? Did someone insist that everybody say a prayer or did someone just say one of their own fruition?
What are the f*#king facts of the matter??? That's what I'm asking?
If the city mandated a prayer, that's wrong, but if somebody chose to say one without others having to commit, is that wrong?
Much different than making secondary school children recite Koranic prayers, no?
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GDavis
Trad climber
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Sep 30, 2009 - 11:41pm PT
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:D I work weekends dude, so I'm sure I'll see ya! Got a duffle filled wiht all the fun toys right now, can't wait!!
And hey, whether you agree with Mtropy's politics or not, at least his kids are getting involved. How many kids grow up to be just like their parents? They will be big boys and girls someday.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Sep 30, 2009 - 11:42pm PT
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Sorry, sir Blue, sometimes I am an assuming A$$. Maybe mrtropy cleared it up in the above post.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Sep 30, 2009 - 11:48pm PT
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I'd still like to see a link as to what happend. Was someone forced to invoke prayer? Was someone penalized for not praying to Jesus?
What happend exactly? Sounds like someone just prayed alound at a meeting, so what?
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Jingy
Social climber
Flatland, Ca
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You can be proud of your kids Mrtropy. Let them do as they wish.
On a side note.. we should all lay off responding to the mindless comments that get sprayed from some on this forum...
It should be obvious that there is not always what might seem like a complete thought process from them certain few.
Thanks for the confidence builder.. now I know that at least a couple of the youth of America can stand up and speak out for causes they believe in and not slackin' in front of the TV all day.
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adam d
climber
closer to waves than rock
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Good for you Mrtropy, and your daughter. A girl that age that wants to think about big issues? And who sees through some of the BS? Priceless.
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up2top
Big Wall climber
Phoenix, AZ
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Mrtrophy -- perhaps you can point me to the separation of church and state clause, or law, or amendment you're referring to?
Ed
(this should be good)
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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It is NOT a christian community.
It is an AMERICAN community. Christ did not found the community. In AMERICA, we have respect for people of all faiths, including no faith.
Don't know what they do in your country.
Didn't the founding fathers have enough persecution of their religions, that they established "a more perfect Union", that would not?
God did not give you the right to bear arms, no matter if you think it is a "God-given right."
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WBraun
climber
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Mrtrophy
Your daughter holds a sign saying "Preachers of hate go home".
Who are these "Preachers of hate" ..... ?
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up2top
Big Wall climber
Phoenix, AZ
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Ken -- thanks for making irrelevant comments. Any info about the origin of this "separation of church and state" stuff MrTropy is talking about?
Ed
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tooth
Trad climber
Kelowna, BC
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The US is really weird. I come from Canada, and I was surprised to see so much religion on people's bumper stickers, US flags in church, christian fish symbols, people saying God bless you, people praying or making a deal of prayer in government, etc.
I prefer separation, I think it is right. But I pray. And I always feel that posting a sign and shouting comes across as anti-praying which I disagree with for me and my family, instead of pro-separation which I agree with for me and my country.
Think I'll move back home now...
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Like it or not, christianity and the plight of the protestants play a huge role in the history and traditions of American culture. Whether it shoudl in the future is up to everyone, but you can't dispute that the mayflower was just dropping off a bunch of bored people.
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apogee
climber
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Props for Mrtropy's kids, and for a dad who cares enough to educate his kids!
"I'm a bit troubled at the politicization of you kids, dude."
bluering, your hypocrisy is showing. Again. I'll bet a case of Heiny that you would have sung a different tune if they were walking around with 'I love Jeebus' or 'Lodi is a Christian Community' signs.
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fareastclimber
Big Wall climber
Hong Kong, but live in Wales...
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Nice one, I think that's a great thing for your child to want to be actively engaged in political issues at a young age. In contrast, I was encouraged around that age to get involved with children's rights advocacy, but ended up having no real interest... oh well!
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mrtropy
Trad climber
Nor Cal
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 1, 2009 - 08:33am PT
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We lost- for now but we tried
Wbraun-read carefully and you will find the name
My daughter and her friend from the Local paper.
Last Names removed
Holding a sign with the words "Preachers of hate: Go home" 11-year-old Joseph marched with his friend, 11-year-old Sophia .
"We want to show that things in church shouldn't be done in the government or in the public," Phillips said.
Both agreed a moment of silence would be acceptable.
"What if Muslims go, and they feel like they are betraying their God?" Sophia said.
Proud Dad
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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up2top, here you go:
Under the United States Constitution, the treatment of religion by the government is broken into two clauses: the establishment clause and the free exercise clause.
The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment refers to the first of several pronouncements in the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, stating that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion". Together with the Free Exercise Clause, ("... or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"), these two clauses make up what are commonly known as the "religion clauses" of the First Amendment.
The establishment clause has generally been interpreted to prohibit 1) the establishment of a national religion by Congress, or 2) the preference of one religion over another or the support of a religious idea with no identifiable secular purpose. The first approach is called the "separationist" or "no aid" interpretation, while the second approach is called the "non-preferentialist" or "accommodationist" interpretation. The accommodationist interpretation prohibits Congress from preferring one religion over another, but does not prohibit the government's entry into religious domain to make accommodations in order to achieve the purposes of the Free Exercise Clause.
The Free Exercise Clause is the accompanying clause with the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution. The Establishment Clause and the Free Exercise Clause together read:
“ Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof... ”
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artmusicsouth
climber
VA
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A bit off topic but related:
There is a great book out there that discusses this whole topic from a scholarly perspective. It is "In Search of Christian America." It really is a response to all the Christians who think America is a Christian nation. The book is written but folks who are Christians but have a very balanced perspective and bring interesting insights into the discussion.
http://www.amazon.com/Search-Christian-America-Mark-Noll/dp/0939443155/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1254406282&sr=8-1
Here is a review that gets at the books content:
"This very interesting book is aimed at evangelical Christians but can be read profitably by individuals of any faith, including those who lack religous faith. The 3 authors are all distinguished historians of American religion and also committed evangelical Christians. The goal of this polemic is to rebut ideas popular among evangelicals that the USA was founded as "Christian Nation," that our founding documents are extensions of biblical scripture, and that there has been a recent falling away of the USA from its Christian past. While this book was written approximately 20 years ago, these ideas continue to be popular. As conservative evangelicals have assumed a larger role in political life, there are increasing attempts to move these ideas out of the conservative evangelical Christian community. Some of the proponents of these ideas quoted in this book, like Tim LaHaye and Jerry Falwell, will be familiar from their contemporary roles in political life. Others, like James Dobson, have attained prominence more recently, but espouse doctrines essentially identical to the ones discussed in Search for Christian America.
Noll, Hatch, and Marsden base their critique on two planks. One is simply that the "Christian Nation" version of American history, particularly the early history of the republic, is wrong. Reflecting a large volume of outstanding scholarship, including some produced by the authors, Noll, Hatch, and Marsden, emphasize the relatively modest role that explicitly Christian thought had in the founding of the republic. Indeed, as they point out, some of the most explicitly Christian features of the Revolutionary period, such as Protestant anti-Catholic bigotry, are some of the least attractive features of this period of American life.
The second plank of this critique is theological in nature. The authors produce a cogent set of warnings about indiscriminate entangling of Christianity with nationalism and uncritical patriotism. They argue well that such entanglements can be detrimental to correct Christian action. As they stress, this criticism is hardly novel, indeed, some of the argument is based on the writings of notable American Protestant leaders like Roger Williams, Isaac Backus, Jonathan Edwards,and Samuel Hopkins. Noll, Hatch, and Marsden are not arguing that evangelical Christians should withdraw from public life or that religously motivated concerns are illegitimate in public life. Quite the opposite, but they stress that such action should be based on truthful understanding of American history and rigorous theological thinking.
This short book is written clearly, referenced well, and is backed by the impressive knowledge of the authors. Its a pity its not read more widely."
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Bluring - at issue is an invocation of "The Lord's Prayer" at the start of city council meetings.
Finally somebody posted what this is all about....
I'd have to say that I agree it's probably inappropriate, but unconstitutional? I doubt it. The constitution (as I understand it) refers to the Federal gov't (Congress) not establishing /promoting religion.
If a city council CHOOSES to do so, is that unconstitutional? There would have to be a State law prohibiting that, right?
If some of the council members objected, that's different.
And for the record, I'm generally opposed to people proselytizing, whether they have the right to or not. It's just inappropriate and somewhat a betrayal of the public freedom.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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DMT, the 1st Amendment is pretty clear that The Congress shall make no laws promoting or denying the free expression of religion.
Only if the city council was compelling someone to participate would it be unconstitutional.
Just because a Gov't official in a gov't building mutters something religious, doesn't violate the seperation clause. This clause has been misinterpreted to mean that anything religious cannot come into contact with anything governmental. That ain't the case.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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a RULE for the Lord's Prayer
Then it's wrong. You should have mentioned that earlier.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Yeah, you could have.
Having a rule, which implies a mandate, to say a prayer is different than just 'starting every meeting with a prayer', which implies a willful consent.
...but now we're just splitting hairs.
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mrtropy
Trad climber
Nor Cal
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 1, 2009 - 11:29pm PT
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Since the prayer has been open to all faiths a Satanist has already emailed and asked to pray before a meeting. He is a local resident and has emailed all of the council and the city attorney. Gotta Love the way things turn out sometimes.
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up2top
Big Wall climber
Phoenix, AZ
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The "separation of church and state" phrase is no where in the Constitution, nor any where else within the Bill of Rights. Feel free to look for it. You won't find it, though most of us have been taught -- incorrectly -- to believe that this wording is the basis for disallowing the slightest mention of praise toward a supreme being if it is uttered by a public official.
The first time this phrase appeared was in a letter from by Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptists on January 1, 1802. His purpose was to assuage the fears of the Danbury, Connecticut Baptists, in response to their fears that they would be discriminated against as a minority religion in Connecticut at the time. The religious liberties they enjoyed were not seen as immutable rights, but as privileges granted by the legislature — as "favors granted." The metaphor was used exclusively to keep the state out of the church's business, not to keep the church out of the state's business.
This metaphor was later used as the basis for the formulation of the "establishment clause" in the Constitution as part of the 1st amendment -- Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Those of you who insist that government officials have no right to include prayer in public ceremonies or official duties, or to use public property in the celebration of a religious ceremony conveniently disregard the true intent of the establishment clause and flagrantly IGNORE the part of the clause that states "or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...".
The establishment clause gives you the freedom OF religion. It most certainly DOES NOT give you the right to freedom FROM religion or religious expressions.
Ed
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mrtropy
Trad climber
Nor Cal
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 2, 2009 - 12:08am PT
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My mom was teaching when they played in our town at the high school and soon afterward wrote that song. They were stuck here just overnight.
Is Up2top real or someone playing a right wing nut as a joke- a thin line between reality and humor. A good character much like Borat. I love it!!!
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up2top
Big Wall climber
Phoenix, AZ
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Good that you like it. There's plenty more where that came from!
So, would you desire to prohibit the satanist from praying before these meeting? How about a Muslim? See -- that's the silly part. The ACLU fervently goes after limiting expressions of Christianity, but then file lawsuits to defend Muslim's rights to worship at similar venues under the same circumstances. So, are your opposed to all religious expression in your town council meetings? Or just the Christians?
Ed
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mrtropy
Trad climber
Nor Cal
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 2, 2009 - 12:42am PT
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If you can not figure that out from my posts the way I think, I feel sorry for you.
Wait another Joke- you are too sharp for me. You had me fooled for a minute. You are great!! LOL Watch out Sacha Baron Cohenn.
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wack-N-dangle
Gym climber
the ground up
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Dingus
I'm not necessarily lining up on your side. Still, I liked your new moniker. Want to meet for some tomato soup brew? Finally, thanks to those working to promote tolerance, peace, and to protect our liberties.
Mrtropy- my brother mentioned Lodi was written, in part, because of the way their drummer was treated. Any truth to the rumor.
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wack-N-dangle
Gym climber
the ground up
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DMT
Point taken. Tech tip: Ketchup packets for alpine ascents. If you bring the russians, you might be able to make a bloody mary too.
cheers
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mrtropy
Trad climber
Nor Cal
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 2, 2009 - 10:56am PT
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Not sure about the drummer story but John Fogerty played here last year or maybe was was CCR with a different singer I forget which but someone told the story. They were just stuck over night. I will ask around.
And the song was written about this Lodi- they were small at the time and playing out of Marin county or Santa Rosa. They were still playing high school and local dances.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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"The establishment clause gives you the freedom OF religion. It most certainly DOES NOT give you the right to freedom FROM religion or religious expressions."
"Supreme Court since 1947
The phrase "separation of church and state" became a definitive part of Establishment Clause jurisprudence in Reynolds v. U.S. (1879), where the court examined Jefferson's involvement with the amendment and concluded that his interpretation was "almost an authoritative declaration" of its meaning."
"In 1962, the Supreme Court extended this analysis to the issue of prayer and religious readings in public schools. In Engel v. Vitale 370 U.S. 421 (1962), the Court determined it unconstitutional by a vote of 6-1 for state officials to compose an official school prayer and require its recitation in public schools, even when it is non-denominational and students may excuse themselves from participation. As such, any teacher, faculty, or student can pray in school, in accordance with their own religion. However, they may not lead such prayers in class, or in other "official" school settings such as assemblies or programs, including even "non-sectarian" teacher-led prayers, e.g. "Almighty God, we acknowledge our dependence upon Thee, and we beg Thy blessings upon us, our parents, our teachers, and our country," which was part of the prayer required by the New York State Board of Regents prior to the Court's decision. As the Court stated:
The petitioners contend, among other things, that the state laws requiring or permitting use of the Regents' prayer must be struck down as a violation of the Establishment Clause because that prayer was composed by governmental officials as a part of a governmental program to further religious beliefs. For this reason, petitioners argue, the State's use of the Regents' prayer in its public school system breaches the constitutional wall of separation between Church and State. We agree with that contention, since we think that the constitutional prohibition against laws respecting an establishment of religion must at least mean that, in this country, it is no part of the business of government to compose official prayers for any group of the American people to recite as a part of a religious program carried on by government."
"The court noted that it "is a matter of history that this very practice of establishing governmentally composed prayers for religious services was one of the reasons which caused many of our early colonists to leave England and seek religious freedom in America."[37]
Currently, the Supreme Court applies a three-pronged test to determine whether legislation comports with the Establishment Clause, known as the "Lemon Test". First, the legislature must have adopted the law with a neutral or non-religious purpose. Second, the statute's principal or primary effect must be one that neither advances nor inhibits religion. Third, the statute must not result in an excessive entanglement of government with religion"
Do we have freedom from religion? We certainly have freedom from YOUR religion!
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Homer
Mountain climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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I like the message "Seperate Church and State" - it's a good honest opinion about a tough issue. But "(fill in the blank) go home" - could that be a veiled message of love/kindness/tolerance, or does it reflect the same human tendency to judge and condemn people who think differently than we do (that you may believe the christians preach)?
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mrtropy
Trad climber
Nor Cal
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 4, 2009 - 11:17am PT
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If you "truly" know what the average person in Lodi you know what will happen. If the City council followed the old law/rule in the first place none of this would have come out.
Now I am unstuck and out of this town and heading up to the hills. Going to be camping with the city attorney,should be interesting to see what he has to say.
Cheers
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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I can't believe that's the biggest problem in your town, a prayer at the city council meeting.
Must be nice to be all squared-away except for one thing.
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mrtropy
Trad climber
Nor Cal
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 8, 2009 - 04:09pm PT
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Hey Chaz, My daughter and I and her friend made the L A Times on line, not sure about the hard copy but on line. We are on the second Photo.
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JoeSimo
Trad climber
New York
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Free thinking, intelligent children that also rock climb... and here I thought the future was lost. You have restored my hope in the next generation...
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