Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
| Messages 1 - 60 of total 60 in this topic |
Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
|
|
|
Topic Author's Original Post - Sep 26, 2009 - 03:35pm PT
|
I apologize for the OT topic, but I know a lot of the climbers on this site are also responsible shooters, so here it is…
The California legislature has passed AB962. It is now up to the Governor to veto this bill or let it pass.
This bill mandates the following changes in the way you buy ammunition:
1) It will prohibit the sale of ammo in a manner that allows the ammunition to be accessible without the help of an employee. In other words, you’ll have to stand in line and have to wait to be shown the ammunition you may want to purchase.
2) It will require the dealer to ask for you ID each time you buy handgun ammunition and the dealer will record the following personal information:
a. A thumbprint
b. Your CDL #
c. Your home address and telephone number
d. The brand and type of ammunition that you purchased
e. Your date of birth
3) Additionally, it would be illegal to buy ammo via online or mail order methods, so if a local store can’t find you older, hard-to-get or obsolete ammunition, you won’t be able to get it via the internet.
Also the bill makes it a crime for anyone who is not a registered ammunition seller to transfer (give) or sell more than 50 rounds total per month, so if I want to take a few friends to the range and give them each a box of rounds I’m now a criminal.
This bill will drive up prices, make criminal the regular activities of law abiding citizens, and further stimulate the black market in ammunition which is the source for gang bangers and criminals.
Californians - please contact the Governor today and let him know your position on AB962.
You can contact him at 916-445-2841 and do an auto-vote as follows:
Listen to the recorded message and press in the following order:
1 (English)
2 (legislation)
2 (AB962)
2 (against) or 1 (support)
If it is busy – keep trying, and it is easier to get through after hours. It is all automated.
I was in Utah a few weeks ago and stopped in a local sporting goods store. I was able to grab some boxes of .357 off the shelf, take my basket to the friendly cashier, pay and leave.
This is America folks, not 1933 Germany. Wake up.
BTW, this law will effectively shut down the federally mandated Civilian Marksmanship Program too as they frequently transfer quantities of ammo without face to face contact.
http://www.gunnewsdaily.com/index.php/article-archives/117-californias-ammo-bill-ab962-end-federal-cmp-program
http://leftcoastconservative.blogspot.com/2009/03/ab-962-internet-ammunition-sales-to-be.html
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Sep 26, 2009 - 04:05pm PT
|
Where'd you go in Utah?
50 rounds a month???
Ha ha, what a bad joke.
It'd take me a year just to save rds for ONE trip to the range.
Kalifornia!!!
Love it or leave it, its too late to change.
|
|
Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 26, 2009 - 04:43pm PT
|
My wife, the infamous UberBabs, went to Gym Jones in Salt Lake for a few days, worked with Maximus and Twight. Then we hit up the City of Rocks in Idaho for a week.
Twas nice.
To be clear, you can buy more than 50 rnds at a time from a registered ammo retailer (all their employees will have to pass bg tests etc.,) but you as an individual you cannot transfer more tha 50/month even among your friends.
|
|
Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
|
|
|
Sep 26, 2009 - 04:47pm PT
|
Wow, thanks for the head's up! I was not even aware of this bill.
I'll do my best to make sure the Governor knows I support the bill and law changes contained within.
Interesting reasoning, to try to NOT support your local ammo dealer, who does everything to support shooters, and would be happy to find any obscure ammo that you'd want.
Thanks, again!
|
|
Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 26, 2009 - 04:54pm PT
|
I figured we'd see a variety of opinions, and Ken M that is an interesting take on it.
My experience is that I can go to my local dealer and pay over $1/round for 8mm Mauser, or I can order military surplus online from Czeck Republic in 1200 rnd "sardine cans" for .30/round.
I'm all about supporting the local retailer, but in my area they have been crushed.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Sep 26, 2009 - 05:58pm PT
|
I suppose that if I absolutely HAD to that I could live with limiting my ammo distribution to friends at 50/per friend per month.
(They shoot up too much of my ammo as is.)
But in no way could I live with a limit of "distributing" 50 rounds per month at my enemies!
|
|
Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 26, 2009 - 06:27pm PT
|
I agree with your comments except of course for the "brain ratio" thing.
The problem here, to a great extent, is that we have a legislature which does not represent the people due to artful gerrymandering of districts. Arnold tried to undo that, to put districting into the courts, and got shut down hard by guess who? The friggin' legislature.
The whole bunch of them need to go. Hey! There's an election coming up.
|
|
Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 26, 2009 - 06:37pm PT
|
" ...The bigger the state, the harder for a candidate to rise up who is NOT in the pocket of big money... "
yep.
Meg Whitman is running for governor now. She's a tough cookie. We'll see.
|
|
Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 26, 2009 - 07:26pm PT
|
I read your link. Pretty biased and no proof of claims, but whatever.
I'm not endorsing Meg Whitman - just saying it's going to be interesting. If I could pick our next Governor, it would be Tom McClintock. Oh well...
|
|
Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 26, 2009 - 07:29pm PT
|
Radish, While I agree that the crimes listed in your link are horrible, would you please explain how this bill would have any effect to reduce such crimes?
|
|
Radish
Trad climber
Seki, California
|
|
|
Sep 26, 2009 - 07:41pm PT
|
I really can't explain and I don't know if I support the bill. I just thought I"d post this info about the almost 600 killings this year. Where do they get all the ammo?? I know its them killing them but I'm still in a mystery where the ammo comes from....Big 5, Walmart??
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Sep 26, 2009 - 07:43pm PT
|
Forget it Jake. Its Chinatown.
(people like radish start with a conclusion and then go seeking "evidence" to support it)
|
|
Radish
Trad climber
Seki, California
|
|
|
Sep 26, 2009 - 07:52pm PT
|
Hey Now.......I'm just asking questions. I don't have a gun but that don't mean I wouldn't get one for christmas. I agree with making the bill for bigger cities that have bigger crime. I work in areas where everyone has a gun but me........
|
|
Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 26, 2009 - 07:53pm PT
|
Actually I think Radish poses a valid question.
And yes, ammo does come from retail stores like walmart.
Will restricting those over the counter sales reduce gang/gun crime?
Not by one round.
|
|
Nor Cal
Trad climber
San Mateo
|
|
|
Sep 26, 2009 - 08:18pm PT
|
I've called the Govonators office twice from two different phones and I've sent an email to him urging him to veto this bill.
This will only affect law abiding citizens. I mean come on- how many crooks mail order ammo?
I go into walmart to buy ammo (I was lucky to get 6 boxes last week) and I only see people who appear to be law abiding citizens purchasing ammo at the stores I go to.
I am happy to show my ID to purchase, but I don't want my purchasing limited to 50 rnds a month. I can shoot 50 rnds in a few minutes.
This law is the first step to taking away our second ammendment rights? What is next? Can't buy pepper spray? No pocket knives? Cops raiding my home for my legally owned guns and taking time to play my wii?
I went climbing last week. While I was gone my wife got a strange phone call late in the night. She called the cops (the caller tried to identify himself as a cop) and they said it was a telemarketer. She got off of the phone and went to make sure she could still open my California approved gun safe. Inside is a 9mm with a tactical light and laser- she won't miss her target. We pratice atleast twice a year and I make sure that she knows what she is doing. So when I am gone climbing I know that my wife is able to defend herself if she needs to. And I know that she appreciates that she has access to the gun.
Please, do your part and tell Arnold to veto this bill!
BTW if Arnold does nothing the bill will pass...
|
|
adam d
climber
closer to waves than rock
|
|
|
Sep 26, 2009 - 08:39pm PT
|
Got my call and email in.
This bill is absurd. Is it a misguided attempt to solve the problem of gun violence, just a symptom of an irrational fear of guns, or an outright way to F with law abiding citizens? Whatever, it needs to be vetoed.
|
|
adam d
climber
closer to waves than rock
|
|
|
Sep 26, 2009 - 08:45pm PT
|
Arnold did veto a different ammo regulation bill in the past (2005) which could bode well.
http://www.gov.ca.gov/pdf/press/vetoes_2005/AB_996_veto.pdf
To the Members of the California State Assembly:
I am returning Assembly Bill 996 without my signature.
This bill is unnecessary because there has been no documentation of a problem with the theft of ammunition from retail establishments. In addition, I have just signed SB 48 by Senator Scott into law which will ensure those underage will no longer be purchasing ammunition.
Requiring retail ammunition sellers to store any handgun ammunition offered for sale in a manner inaccessible to the purchaser would impose more regulation in California without a corresponding benefit to public safety. It is not clear how requiring store employees to obtain and hand customers ammunition instead of letting customers choose their own ammunition will curb crimes committed with firearms. For these reasons I am unable to sign this bill.
Sincerely,
Arnold Schwarzenegger
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Sep 26, 2009 - 08:56pm PT
|
BITD when Pro-Arms was still open I'd see off duty cops cruising the ammo aisles walking right past the homeboys who were buying "bullets fer crimz" casting nervous glances at each other.
The homeboys tended not to use the range there for practice though.
Nowadays criminals have to steal their ammo because of scarcity/cost.
|
|
pyrrhonota
Trad climber
Davis, CA
|
|
|
Sep 26, 2009 - 11:39pm PT
|
Thanks for posting, at one point I liked Arnold, but he is really making a lot of bad moves.
Don't just email. Send a PAPER LETTER. They listen to the good ole fashion snail mail a lot more than the emails!
If your wrote an email already print it out and send to:
Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger
State Capitol Building
Sacramento, CA 95814
Seems like an overly short address but it came from: http://gov.ca.gov/interact#contact
|
|
Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
|
|
|
Sep 26, 2009 - 11:53pm PT
|
Seems to me this is a 2nd admendment issue. I don't own a gun but we have the right to bear them. And I will fight for that right for those who do own them. Maybe one day I'll own one; I did qualify as expert in the US Army with the M14 and the Colt 45. But doesn't the 2nd admendment imply that your right to bear arms includes the ammo to go with it?
This indeed sounds like a bad law.
The peoples' right to bear arms is the only thing that can possibly help keep our US government from being completely facsist and turning into a police state. And then perhaps that won't even stop it.
Sounds like everyone needs to learn to load your own bullets and rounds. Time to set-up shop.
|
|
mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
|
|
|
Sep 27, 2009 - 03:34am PT
|
HK USP Compact- check
Beretta 96 INOX - check
Taurus 444 ultralight .44 Mag - check
500 rounds for each.
Making the call on monday.
I came from a conceal carry state.
Absurd to think they can limit my constitutional right to ammunition.
Start relocating some of your weapons, the hammer is coming.......
|
|
mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
|
|
|
Sep 27, 2009 - 04:23am PT
|
Ruger Rocks!
I got a 7mm mag that loves to hit it's mark
Ditto on the ammo Roc, not much problem in the heartland!
|
|
couchmaster
climber
pdx
|
|
|
Sep 27, 2009 - 07:11am PT
|
Wishing you Californians well...all the damn crazy sh#t seems to start there.
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Sep 27, 2009 - 07:18am PT
|
Civilian Marksmanship Program
And this is something we should be spending federal tax money on? Sounds more like a states militia deal. Low on the priority list of circa 1903 programs that could and should be defunded, but still...
|
|
Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 27, 2009 - 11:18am PT
|
Healyje,
CMP=In 1996 a federal law created the Civilian Marksmanship Program (CMP) with the specific mission to promote firearms and marksmanship training for U.S. citizens with an emphasis on youth programs. This program provides firearms, most notably M1 Garands to affiliated CMP organizations. Additionally, it provides 22-caliber ammunition, air rifle pellets and BBs, which are suitable for youth firearms training and rifle marksmanship programs. AB962 would effectively end the transfer of ammuntion from CMP to various organizations that either take advantage or are eligible, such as Boy Scouts of America, Junior ROTC units, 4-H shooting sports clubs and many other California organizations.
Also they sell M1s and .22 trainers to shooters who qualify through their program, for pretty much top dollar prices. I haven't seen their books, but I'll try to find out if they cost us anything or not.
|
|
dirtbag
climber
|
|
|
Sep 27, 2009 - 11:33am PT
|
Whitman already lookslike an idiot. Another rich person who thinks having no experience in government is an asset (or bothering to vote). Yeah, the big bad CEO is going to come into town, slash regulation, and straighten things up. Worked for Arnie, huh?
The Legislature would eat her up in 20 seconds.
|
|
TGT
Social climber
So Cal
|
|
|
Sep 27, 2009 - 11:40am PT
|
Does it outlaw lead shot too? I sure as f*#k hope so.
DMT
Lead shot for waterfowl hunting has been outlawed for years.
Lead bullets it the Condor sanctuary areas, likewise.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Sep 27, 2009 - 11:50am PT
|
I wonder if Weakwrist is good at making that "time out" hand signal,..LOL
Lets see, if we need to lock away anything that could kill somebody then what would we have left in the aisles,....uh,....
I've got it.
The aisles would have the bags of marshmallows.
|
|
pyrrhonota
Trad climber
Davis, CA
|
|
|
Sep 27, 2009 - 11:56am PT
|
No, you can choke on those
|
|
dirtbag
climber
|
|
|
Sep 27, 2009 - 12:21pm PT
|
It scares me when you agree with me Rokjox.
I might have to rethink this.
;-)
|
|
Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 27, 2009 - 12:30pm PT
|
yeah it's amazing how fast a candidate can dive. Whitman's hit the dirt in like three days...
Wes - the only people this law will affect are responsible type folks who shoot for sport. Now maybe you don't like sport shooting. That's fine. But laws like this do no one any good.
The guy that's gonna shoot someone during the commission of a crime has all the ammo he needs. And I suggest the unintended consequence of this law will be to stimulate a black market in ammunition whereby criminals will both profit and be well supplied.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Sep 27, 2009 - 01:15pm PT
|
Turns out I've been committing suicide for a good many decades.
Thank goodness Weakwrist is there to save the day.
(if I show my ID can I die now?)
|
|
Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 27, 2009 - 01:30pm PT
|
Wes,
One, guns are highly regulated. So is ammo. Many types of guns and ammo are entirely illegal to own or use.
Two, The black market will not be in ammo manufacturing. It will be in distribution.
Three, Where did the criminal get his ammo? Most likely from the same illegal source where he got his gun. Duh.
Gotta run. Off to The Needles for a week. Vote your convictions. I can respect that.
|
|
TGT
Social climber
So Cal
|
|
|
Sep 27, 2009 - 01:34pm PT
|
Five gallon buckets kill about as many small children as firearm accidents.
Lighters and matches kill ten times as many.
Let's ban'em all!
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Sep 27, 2009 - 01:40pm PT
|
Easily solved.
We mandate that all buckets to be equipped with airbags, and all lighters have an activation pedal on a four foot extension arm.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Sep 27, 2009 - 02:33pm PT
|
Remember Arnold's little trip to the gun store 25 years ago?
"Phased plasma rifle int der vorty vatt range."
"Just what ya see, pal."
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Sep 27, 2009 - 07:16pm PT
|
Bump for Roman Polanski getting arrested after 32 years right while I was quoting his film on this thread!
|
|
Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
|
|
|
Sep 28, 2009 - 12:29pm PT
|
Ammunition is already highly regulated.
If you don't think so, just have a chat with the guy who runs your Local Gun Shop.
|
|
mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
|
|
|
Sep 28, 2009 - 12:39pm PT
|
"Absurd to think they can limit my constitutional right to ammunition."--mucci
"But doesn't the 2nd amendment imply that your right to bear arms includes the ammo to go with it?"--klimmer
Please point to the phrasing or wording anywhere in the Constitution that mentions ammo ANYWHERE.
The founding fathers clearly understood that an armed nation was a READY one, but that ammunition was the key to controlling the masses "armed" for a revolution.
The intelligent gun owners saw this and have been stocking up since they got their first gun--the rest of the masses are just left in confusion, as indicated by the quotes from the above 'Topians.
|
|
Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
|
|
|
Sep 28, 2009 - 01:00pm PT
|
I walked into a bar Friday night and bought a glass of scotch, no ID required.
You can't say alcohol isn't highly regulated.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Sep 28, 2009 - 01:33pm PT
|
Wes,
you ever been a victim of a violent crime?
|
|
Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
|
|
|
Sep 28, 2009 - 03:44pm PT
|
What do you replace lead with?
|
|
Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
|
|
|
Sep 28, 2009 - 03:59pm PT
|
What's the melting point of Bismuth?
Low melting point is what makes lead easy to work with.
|
|
dirtbag
climber
|
|
|
Sep 28, 2009 - 04:01pm PT
|
Isn't it in North Dakota?
|
|
Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
|
|
|
Sep 28, 2009 - 04:03pm PT
|
Some years it never melts up there.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Sep 28, 2009 - 04:15pm PT
|
I have to agree with DMT on wanting to ban lead shot in condor areas, but thats not a good reason to hold a lifetime grudge.
Nor do I feel it should be banned outright.
One of the reasons they are called clay pigeons, Dingus, is because they are not real birds and don't go into the food chain!!
|
|
Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
|
|
|
Sep 28, 2009 - 04:18pm PT
|
Don't feed clay pigeons to hogs.
|
|
mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
|
|
|
Sep 28, 2009 - 04:19pm PT
|
"Ammunition is protected by extension of the second amendment."--rokjox
Not that I don't believe you, as it's prolly true--BUT, I'd like to see the Court Opinion on that one (or something documented) regarding the Constitutional rights of people and ammunition.
|
|
donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
|
|
|
Sep 28, 2009 - 05:34pm PT
|
I used to be for some form of gun control, but recent threads have convinced me that the herd needs to be culled.
|
|
adam d
climber
closer to waves than rock
|
|
|
Sep 28, 2009 - 06:03pm PT
|
I'm all for promoting non-lead ammo, not totally certain a blanket ban is good though. I certainly feel a need to take precautions to limit my exposure to lead a the range. Despite the tin foil gun nuts hating Condors, the industry must take some of the blame for not producing cost effective lead-free alternatives. If the cost was less of an issue, consumers wouldn't mind. And is there yet ANY .22lr out there that's lead free? That would be a better ammo solution than a thumbprint at the register.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Sep 28, 2009 - 06:15pm PT
|
Sounds like you're one mugging away from becoming a republican.
|
|
rick d
climber
tucson, az
|
|
|
Sep 28, 2009 - 06:23pm PT
|
weschrist
you're a tool.
I'm glad I'll never climb with you.
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Sep 29, 2009 - 02:49am PT
|
CMP History (apparently not federally funded other than by the guns...)
The Office of the Director of Civilian Marksmanship (DCM) was created by the U.S. Congress as part of the 1903 War Department Appropriations Act. The original purpose was to provide civilians an opportunity to learn and practice marksmanship skills so they would be skilled marksmen if later called on to serve in the U.S. military. Over the years the emphasis of the program shifted to focus on youth development through marksmanship. From 1916 until 1996 the CMP was administered by the U.S. Army. Title XVI of the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 1996 (Public Law 104-106, 10 February 1996) created the Corporation for the Promotion of Rifle Practice & Firearms Safety (CPRPFS) to take over administration and promotion of the CMP. The CPRPFS is a tax-exempt non-profit 501(c)(3) corporation chartered by the U.S. Congress, but is not an agency of the U.S. Government (Title 36, United States Code, Section 40701 et seq). Apart from a donation of surplus .22 and .30 caliber rifles in the Army's inventory to the CMP, the CMP receives no Federal funding.
The National Board for the Promotion of Rifle Practice (NBPRP), an advisory board to the Secretary of the Army (SA), which was created in 1903, was disestablished by this law and replaced by the CPRPFS. The initial board was appointed by the SA and is responsible to develop all policies and procedures for the implementation of all aspects of the CMP.
|
|
Rocktrol
Trad climber
Reno , NV
|
|
|
Sep 29, 2009 - 07:42am PT
|
California law makers suck . Always f'en it up .
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
|
|
|
Sep 29, 2009 - 08:09am PT
|
Interesting take on this. when I was a kid you had to buy your ammo in a store and you had to show your drivers license and sign in a ledger for the ammo. You also couldn't buy your ammo on the internet... Not saying that the kalifornicator law dose not go too far which i feel it does but am pointing out that it is essentially nothing new.........
|
|
Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
|
|
|
Sep 29, 2009 - 12:54pm PT
|
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Declaration_of_Independence
Wikipedia:
The next section, the famous preamble, includes the ideas and ideals that were principles of the Declaration. It is also an assertion of what is known as the "right of revolution": that is, people have certain rights, and when a government violates these rights, the people have the right to "alter or abolish" that government.[71]
The Declaration of Independance:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."
|
|
phylp
Trad climber
Millbrae, CA
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2009 - 09:21pm PT
|
This organization is like the California shooter's version of The Access Fund:
http://www.crpa.org/
I don't shoot but my husband is on one of their Boards...
so I know that they employ a full time person who keeps tabs and lobbies on any emerging or pending legislation regarding gun rights.
|
|
| Messages 1 - 60 of total 60 in this topic |
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!