WoS "confessions"--The whole truth about the "enhancements"

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deuce4

climber

Hobart, Australia

Sep 21, 2009 - 09:26pm PT

Madbolter

This isn't about the Sea of Dreams. Different route, different climber. Birdwell's long established career and originality has gained him a place of respect. Frankly, and I don't mean this unkindly, that is not the same as you.

Regarding the wafer-thin flake that someone on Bridwell's team apparently chipped to make hook holds. I've seen that a lot too, and might have even done it myself in a pinch on a FA. But again, this is not a question of total number of grams of rock affected.

Imagine if there were a pristine 3000 foot wafer thin flake running up the side of El Cap. Even Bridwell would have gotten tons of grief if he had just bashed a hook placement every 3 feet. It would be a desecration of something beautiful and potentially climbable by someone else in better style. That's why it is pointless to compare what Bridwell did on the Sea, which has a huge variety of different types of climbing features, with what you did on the slab-- they are different beasts.

I think the reason why WOS hasn't been repeated is because in the end, it's not really that interesting to search around for tiny hook placements, not knowing if the one you are looking for is in fact one of the 20 (or whatever the count may be) that you enhanced, all the while knowing that all that's going to happen once you get to the next rivet is that you will have to do the same thing again, and again, and again. If it were pure and in its original pristine state, this kind of climbing might be more compelling, but it will never be that way again.

Course, it's a big wide slab....

ps. this is all not to say that what you did back in 1982 is bad or good, it's more to say that there might be some validity in the criticisms directed toward the route, just as there might be some validity in your claim that it is a reasonable line. In either case, it's part of El Cap history at this point.

Cracko

Trad climber

Quartz Hill, California

Sep 21, 2009 - 10:59pm PT

Madbolter & Mr. Smith,

I have read this whole thread, and all past threads on the topic. I must say that I have gained total respect for both of you in the manner in which you have taken up your defense. I think Mr. Smith put it best with his..."I wonder, if Bridwell had done WoS in the style in which it was done, would it have been deemed as the great undoing of an otherwise proud climber, or would it have been hailed as the ultimate accomplishment of a visionary. Likewise, if the Mad Bolters had done the FA of the Sea, with the tactics employed, would it have been hailed as the greatest climb of its day, or would have it been slandered as an outrageously modified botch job." I think that is the jist of this whole played out discussion. I am but a "punter" in the great society of "real" climbers, but I think that if Bridwell would have put up WOS we would not be having this discussion. Duece, you are a man I have always respected, and your "Birdwell's long established career and originality has gained him a place of respect. Frankly, and I don't mean this unkindly, that is not the same as you." simply confirms Mr. Smith's premise that it is not about the climb but the climber. I look forward to the day when someone among the Valley "entitled", yes you Mr. Braun, will get off their high horse and get real !!

Cracko

Maysho

climber

Truckee, CA

Sep 21, 2009 - 11:22pm PT

Just to clarify my statement about one pitch on ZM and the quote about "hammering hard" I was referring to an act of trundling, there were loose chunks of rock stuck in the Lightning Bolt corner, my first effort was to place nuts, pins and heads in the outer layer of loose and rotten rock, then I fell, and Jim encouraged me to be more heavy handed beating out the loose stuff and getting to the more solid corner underneath. Most FA's on the SE side involved trundling a fair bit of loose rock. Chipping the edge of a short loose flakes to accept hooks or slings has also been done a few other places in the diorite, including by Robbins on the NA.

I think your line was unique in going up a big "blank" slab and so is not comparable to the antics played out on the loose highly featured black stuff on the right side. I am curious about your comments on the Hook or Book, which I still hope to do, I have talked with a lot of people who have done it, (including our own Double D, first ascentionist) and have never heard reference to Bat Hook holes, which usually mean hook holes straight in, I thought the holes were angled down behind slopers.

Agree with Duecey (howdy John!) on the craft of first ascent aid climbing being ART, and like any art subjected to critique.

Carry on,

Peter

Jaybro

Social climber

Wolf City, Wyoming

Sep 21, 2009 - 11:26pm PT

Not even close. (I'm dissing my buddy cracko, not peter)

Still waiting for something that hasn't been said a thousand posts ago.

madbolter1

Big Wall climber

Walla Walla, WA

Topic Author's Reply - Sep 21, 2009 - 11:35pm PT

Thanks, Cracko! I couldn't have said it better myself, with all my words! This has ALWAYS been about the Valley elite thinking that it's THEIR valley, as Harding said: "Dogs pissing on trees." They can try to spin this any way they want, but it all washes out the same way. Finally, even Deuce comes clean with the real story, a real story that probably Grossman and a few others never will. I expect negative spin or even a full retraction any minute, 'cause Deuce just gave away the farm.

mojede

Trad climber

Butte, America

Sep 21, 2009 - 11:40pm PT

That exchange was better presented than any in the politicrap thread with 10,000+ posts.

I still can't believe that stone monkeys quibble over the amount of metal/hammer combinations taken upon the rock during ARTIFICIAL climbing--seems like 1 (one) is enough to upset the psyche of the route's root, past that it it simply ego.

edit: JM and MB, that is.

WBraun

climber

Sep 21, 2009 - 11:42pm PT

"This has ALWAYS been about the Valley elite thinking that it's THEIR valley."

Clueless as ever.

There is no Valley elite .....

Bubba Ho-Tep

climber

Evergreen, CO

Sep 21, 2009 - 11:49pm PT

Duece said: If it were pure and in its original pristine state, this kind of climbing might be more compelling, but it will never be that way again.

Hey! It's been 25+ years since it was done - It is now probably in the exact same shape it would have been had it never been climbed. I doubt that any of the edges the FA team hooked still exist whether "dimpled" or not. (discounting the drilled bolts and rivits of course)

madbolter1

Big Wall climber

Walla Walla, WA

Topic Author's Reply - Sep 21, 2009 - 11:50pm PT

Peter, we are largely in agreement, given what you've just posted. The "game" gets played all sorts of ways, always taking the circumstances into account. You trundled "tonnage," while we "trundled" a micro-gram. Different games for different situations. And, as we've said, "art" is a nebulous thing and hard to interpret.

Regarding what we saw all over the Sea, I count as a "bat hook" any hole INTO the rock face to make a hook placement go that otherwise could not go at all. You seem to suggest that sort of thing with your reference to "angled down behind slopers," and we saw lots of those; these were "hook" placements that could never have stuck on the high-angled slopes without a full-on hole. However, there were also quite a few full-on bat hooks on the route that are just in blank rock... maybe the slightest perceptible ripple.

Again, let me by crystal clear: I'M not "dissing" on the FA team or on such tactics! The Sea is the most awesome route I can imagine, and I feel honored to have gotten on it before the MANY other blatant atrocities occurred that we saw on it during our ascent of Ring of Fire. The poor thing got beat to death, in people's quest for hollow glory. Yet even now it's a proud route! And I was mighty scared on Hook or Book when I led it! Good, good stuff!!!

Tactics produce art, or they fail, and who is to say which is which? Each will decide that for themselves. But to diss a painting you haven't even seen, to diss a song you haven't even heard, especially just because somebody you know who also hasn't seen it or heard it doesn't like it, is beyond arrogance. It's the lowest form of the mooing herd mentality.

Captain...or Skully

Social climber

Idaho, also. Sorta, kinda mostly, Yeah.

Sep 21, 2009 - 11:54pm PT

I, for one, would NEVER dis a song I have not heard.
My .02.
Metaphor? Maybe....Groove on.

madbolter1

Big Wall climber

Walla Walla, WA

Topic Author's Reply - Sep 21, 2009 - 11:55pm PT

Sorry, Jaybro. Just sayin' the same things over and over again, 'cause they seem to need repeating.

Even three posts before this one, I appear to need to say again, "no dimples on the FA." See? It's amazing how once a term gets misapplied, it quickly becomes part of the common currency, and then it's a struggle to get things straight again.

It's like the "pro life" crowd co-opting that term, as if a person believing that a woman's rights trump a fetus' rights make such a person somehow "anti life" or "pro death." Ridiculous!

The terminology matters.

deuce4

climber

Hobart, Australia

Sep 22, 2009 - 12:00am PT

No Valley elite, only Valley Christians...

Just to clarify, I'm with Peter, in that the impact like breaking a flake with the pick of the hammer would have been done in times of direness. Just as sometimes I'm sure I might have occasionally placed a pin where I could have tweaked in a A3 nut, not ideal behavior (but I'm sure I said my ten "Hail Royals" as penance).

The point is, such behavior wasn't the style we aspired to, or would defend as appropriate. The hammer and chisel used together on the rock, on the other hand, is intentional sculpting--which is more what we are talking about here (and which, by the way, was considered a forbidden tactic in the 80's by my peers).

deuce4

climber

Hobart, Australia

Sep 22, 2009 - 12:19am PT

oops, got sidetracked again!

I thought we had moved on from the chiselled aspect of the route, by establishing that some, but apparently not many, of the hook holds on WOS were enhanced with hammer and chisel, but none by removing a crystal any bigger than 1mm in size.

Your Honor and esteemed members of the jury, if we could have MSmith to the Bench to verify that he, also, could testify that he did not remove any rock larger than 1mm, I think we can lay that one rest, as there will never be more we could squeeze (like water from a rock) out of that one.

But going back, I'm still curious about the ratio of the drilled placements to natural placements. We've been on the verge of hearing it from the FA folks here on this thread.

madbolter1

Big Wall climber

Walla Walla, WA

Topic Author's Reply - Sep 22, 2009 - 12:21am PT

I understand what you're saying, Chief. I really do, and I'm not opposed to it in principle.

But, I think you sell Mark and I a bit short to think that this is nothing but personal redemption for us. I think we both live quite "redeemed" lives. We're happy, gainfully employed, have a successful business, great wives, in Mark's case two great kids, and genuine purpose to our lives. This whole debacle is almost entirely behind us, and we're not in "bondage" to it.

However, that said, despite what Warner claims, we are not "clueless," and anybody following these threads can clearly see what Yosemite history has been rife with. There has always been an "elite" there, always the "locals" of the best climbing area in the world. They have been tightly connected with guidebook writers, the publishers of magazines and books, gear manufacturers and sellers, etc. I'm not talking "conspiracy," just clique.

Bottom line is that they attempt to quash the spirit of independence that makes climbing so great! That would be bad enough, but they do not even hold THEMSELVES to the standards they set for others. (STEVE, where's your count???) It is this mindless, inconsistent, asinine elitism that I care to resist.

Your response to such elitism is a quick fuk you. I understand the sentiment. But it's worth it for me to fight the issues I see that really go way beyond WoS. If you don't want to follow along with the back-and-forth, I completely understand. But I'm a victim of my own personality, I guess. I just have a very low BS tolerance, particularly when that BS makes people feel that they are entitled to treat others with less ethical consideration than they have for a micro-gram of rock!

rwedgee

Ice climber

canyon country,CA

Sep 22, 2009 - 12:29am PT

Having a conversation with some guys who were there at the time(the very long time) the Nose FA took place, they referred to it as a "fiasco" and "travesty". That was the opinion of some at the time it was taking place, not 50 years later. Honestly, a bolt ladder pitch? That was an "At All Costs" route. What "style" was that again?
These guys did WOS groung up. It hasn't had a second ascent. You think Ammom, Pete, & The Chief don't know how to climb or are in on the conspiracy?? All 3 are WAY more current than any of you. "New Wave" A3 mean anything to you or are you still back in the day calling it A5??
Let's have an actual trial, with a jury of peers. Peers meaning you've had to do an El Cap route with hooking. One or 2 moves doesn't count, I mean hooking. If you haven't customized or modified your hooks you probably don't belong on the jury. What's a good pub, I mean courtroom for this??

madbolter1

Big Wall climber

Walla Walla, WA

Topic Author's Reply - Sep 22, 2009 - 12:31am PT

Wait, wait, WAIT, Deucy! What WE did was "intentional sculpting," while everything from trundling to chipping ledges up an entire 20-foot flake, to sooooo many holes in slopers is all just to be "washed away" by "dire circumstances???"

I cry BS!!!

We did not "sculpt." We tapped a single crystal out of the back of a flake a few times in 1200 feet to avoid a bolt or rivet! We didn't "create a placement" out of whole cloth, like somebody well-respected did on the Sea with that 20-foot flake!!! That was not "dire." That was simply somebody saying, "Well, it's this or a line of holes. At least this approach USES an existing feature!"

SAME mentality as we had, just on a MUCH, MUCH...

MUCH smaller scale.

And, the "standard you aspired to" in the 80's is the same one Mark and I aspired to. If you got on WoS, you might detect that we strove for that standard and by known ratios didn't do too badly at coming pretty durn close.

I'm waiting on Mark for the stats on the other placements. He thinks we might well have such a list in a file somewhere. I honestly, genuinely hope he can produce it. It will only help make that case.

madbolter1

Big Wall climber

Walla Walla, WA

Topic Author's Reply - Sep 22, 2009 - 12:34am PT

Yeah, you're right, Chief. But I was taken by such arguments at a young age. Now I'm compelled to contribute to them. But, you're right, the "truth" will be told by people long after we're all dead. Heh.