Sleepy driving: do you do the right thing?

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
This thread has been locked
Messages 1 - 115 of total 115 in this topic
nutjob

climber
Berkeley, CA
Topic Author's Original Post - Sep 17, 2009 - 07:49pm PT
It is hard.

At the end of a trip, no matter how much I looked forward to it, the allure of being in bed back home is strong. If not that, then it's the pull of family or work commitments, trying to squeeze an ambitious trip into an insufficient timeslot, trying to reach the base at the end of a crazy week of working, etc.

I can't think of how many times I have made questionable judgment calls... after the first time doing Northeast Buttress of Higher Cathedral, my buddy Ritwik and I were trading off drivers every 15 minutes so we could catch a little sleep. I knew my driving turn was over whenever the yellow double lines curled up into smoky wisps that floated off the road. How many times have I jerked my head up and inhaled sharply with a quick correction of the steering wheel? Not good.

Maybe I've turned a corner. My last trip back from Yosemite was a test. After a night of 5 hours of sleep, and 18 hours of flailing for the Harding Route of Conness, I left Sawmill Campground at 9:45pm or so. I've had far gnarlier sounding enduro-pushes, but the fact is my body was near the limit on this particular one. I was completely exhausted, but I was also motivated because Highway 120 had just opened up through the park after being closed for fires. At the start of the drive, I thought I might bivy at one of the usual spots outside the 120 entrance to the park on the west/north side. When I got there, the air was too smokey and I feared waking in the night to flames licking me. I'm sure the fears were unfounded, but the air was uncomfortable to breathe.

By that point, I was fighting for every minute of consciousness, windows down, music cranked, even singing out loud and yelling in an effort to stay conscious. Not more than a half hour later I realized I was weaving over the middle lane at least every minute. I broke down and accepted something that I had never accepted before. I just couldn't handle driving any more. I turned off on a no-name road well past the usual bivy spots, eased the driver seat back as flat as it would go, unpacked some of my sleeping bag to use as a pillow, and turned off the car. Within a few minutes I must have been sleeping, and was out for the next 3 hours. I woke up some time around 2:30am, still feeling very tired but no longer in that danger-zone of uncontrollably losing consciousness.

I made it the next 3 hours home with some trepidation, lane-swerving, and startled jerks. Hmmm.

I started writing this as a sort of self-praise for "becoming mature" to respect my limits and being more safe with driving, but it appears I should be chastising myself some more and making a public statement to "quit while I'm ahead" with those silly driving antics.

So. I hereby pledge to be reasonable with driving... most significantly: if I'm solo on a late night drive back from Yosemite after a big day, LISTEN TO MY BODY and respect it's needs. Try to arrange carpooling (which I mostly do anyways) and then you can tag-team the steering wheel if necessary. Or better yet, just enjoy one more pleasant night out under the stars if possible, and get an early start the next morning.


I know I'm not alone here folks... serious issue with serious consequences that doesn't get much group attention. It's the elephant in the room of weekend warriors, casually dismissed as "the crux of the route is the drive home."
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
Sep 17, 2009 - 07:56pm PT
here here, all in favor say aye.


I too have learned this lesson. It's not easy, but it's better than the alternative.


I've lately tried to keep a handy jetboil and coffee ready. Takes literally 3 minutes to make a cup of coffee and that keeps me going for at least an hour til I can get out of the park.

Doesn't stop the rangers from harassing you... "you know you can't camp here" ... 'well duh, I just don't want to die inside your park so I'm making coffee.'

one reason the OB camping rule is dangerous in it's implementation.



donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Sep 17, 2009 - 08:14pm PT
PULL OVER!!!! In 1962, the Summer after my freshman year in college, I fell asleep at the wheel, my best friend was killed instantly and another friend died two days later. The last thing I remember is rolling down the window to get some air- the others were asleep. PLEASE, pull over and get some rest.
Lambone

Ice climber
Ashland, Or
Sep 17, 2009 - 08:34pm PT
^^^^Donini, that really sucks man, I am sorry to hear that.




One weekend we drove 8 hrs to the Valley, did Leaning Tower in a push, slept about 2hrs in the early am, then drove 8 hrs home.

I woke up on the wrong side of main street in my home town headed for a light pole at 3am. was a close call but I made it.

Next time I bivi.
pud

climber
Sportbikeville
Sep 17, 2009 - 08:36pm PT
Sorry for your loss donini.
What a terrible burden for a young man to carry.
I fell asleep once on the I-5 North of Shasta but woke up for some reason before I wrecked. Never under 70mph the whole time.
I had two passengers asleep in the rear that never new the difference. I was 19 at the time but learned a valuable lesson. Since then, I always pull over at the slightest doubt.
nutjob

climber
Berkeley, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 17, 2009 - 08:38pm PT
Thanks Jim... I don't think any passage of time would make that experience easy to share.

Poor judgment prevails when we are in denial of our real physical limits and the consequences of failure.

I am arming myself with your story, and whatever others surface, to create a more emotional and visceral experience to inform my judgment, so that I can be stronger in the critical moments.
valygrl

climber
Boulder, CO
Sep 17, 2009 - 08:44pm PT
Donini, that is awful. I'm so sorry.

Some of you may remember the thread about Tacos, a friend in the climbing community, who wrecked her car in Wyoming this summer.

She fell asleep at the wheel.

Broke her neck. Spinal cord injury.

Last I heard, she was still in the hospital, but making some progress.

Take care, everyone.
Jingy

Social climber
Flatland, Ca
Sep 17, 2009 - 09:34pm PT
Nutjob - same sorta thing happened to me on the way back from the Fish Compound last year..

I had plenty of rest, was fed, and the our was approx 3:30 PM or so....

Got to about Barstow area and started needing more sleep. Along that highway between Barstow and Bakersfield.. had the usual symptoms, nodding, spontaneous lane changes, blurry vision, lack of concentration on the great music I had blaring in an attempt to stay alert... Got to the point that I just pulled off the side of the road (big pull outs out there) and just took a 40 minute nap. Set my alarm, and nodded off in the passenger seat of my rabbit.

I remember at some point wondering what that low hum was, and thought I had saw a police car pulling away. After the nap I got out and checked the ground (I watch way too much CSI) and found that indeed, I was not dreaming, a car had pulled up beside my car, waited, then moved on.

Made it back safe and sound. The head hit the pillow and before I knew it, it was time to get up and go to work....



Since then, any time I have a long way to go, and I start to fee the slightest bit groggy, I will just find a pull out and take a 20-40 min nap, regardless of the consequences... because the consequences for not doing so may be devastating for anyone who feels anything for me... (no consequences for me... I'd be dead, right?)
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Sep 17, 2009 - 09:44pm PT
Nutjob,
Thanks for the thread, the idea never occurred to me. Climbers are more prone to sleepy driving than most. They're passionate and sure of their abilities and most climb on weekends and live far away from the best venues.
Driving long distances to high altitude and then prolonged physical activity followed by a long drive home is an invitation to disaster.
apogee

climber
Sep 17, 2009 - 10:28pm PT
Great topic.

Jingy's advice is spot on- a 20 minute catnap (or two, or three) works wonders, and will allow you to keep moving.

You might get there a bit later than you planned, but it is far better than a permanent dirt nap.
AbeFrohman

Trad climber
new york, NY
Sep 17, 2009 - 10:37pm PT
good lord people, y'all never heard of RED BULL?
i used to nod BAD. ruuuuuuuuuuuuuuumble strips saved me MANY times.
nowadays, if its light out im fine. if its approaching dusk though, a 16oz redbull gets me where i need to go. pound 1/3 to start, and sip the rest. the shizz is VILE. YECH. but it works.
YMMV.
i once consciously closed my eyes while driving. i said to myself "this road is straight, i can close my eyes for a minute."
i popped awake a milisecond later, pulled off at the next exit and slept for an hour.
drljefe

climber
Old Pueblo, AZ
Sep 17, 2009 - 10:40pm PT
So many enduro drives over the years.
Never nodded, ever.
Just dealt with one last sunday after hours of pumping surf and sun.
Just getting out of the rig and focusing on sh#t that ain't movin 80 miles an hour helped.

I'm with Khanom- noisy and or challenging vehicles help.
Coffee cigs Dead redbull open windows doses-
I usually plan my drives into daylight instead of nightfall.
Donini- sorry man.
johntp

Trad climber
socal
Sep 17, 2009 - 10:54pm PT
When I was 23 (1983) I drove solo in January from Dallas to JT on my way to LA, non-stop other than getting gas. Whenever I got drifty I'd start sticking my head out the window and slapping my face to stay awake. Sutpid!

I will never forget the next morning coming down the 62 towards Palm Springs and staring at the north face of San Jacinto in all it's morning light. That was a high snow year and I was amazed that a face like that could exist in SoCal. It looked alpine.

Sweet! But I was lucky to have made it that far without falling asleep behind the wheel.

Edit: when I was 17 I fell asleep at the wheel outside of Amarillo on a solo x-c ski trip from Dallas to Northern NM. Rolled my Subie three times and got thrown out the windshield when I hit a divider. Fun times I do not want to repeat.
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
Sprocketville
Sep 17, 2009 - 11:07pm PT
YEAH, RED BULL.

SIMPLE.

or rockstar.

i drank 4 cans of the rockstar, i was awake, but then,


ROAD RAGE!

so keep some reefer to take the edge off.

if you are a beer drinker, you just need more beer to get you home.
Lynne Leichtfuss

Social climber
valley center, ca
Sep 17, 2009 - 11:07pm PT
donini, I hope you talked to Bachar about his accident. Dude felt too much grief, pain, guilt and loss. It never left him.

I hurt much for your experience. Dan rolled and pancaked a car in his teens. He was fortunate his brother and two best friends survived.

I think part of this question is personality and a persons physical, mental and chemical make up. I could never sleep even being a passenger. Felt very real co pilot responsibilites.

Worst trip, Driving home from Chico. So Burnt. All the windows down in the van, stereo Blasting and told my 15 year old son, may have to sleep in a ditch tonight if the noise and elements don't work.

rockermike

Mountain climber
Sep 17, 2009 - 11:16pm PT
good topic;
I think we have even had a few "sleeping at the wheel" accidents in our own taco community over the last few years. sad and dangerous

When I was 10 or so (1964?), there was a wonderful family in our neighborhood. In addition to being great people they were climbers. coming back late from a weekend climbing trip the mom fell asleep at the wheel and drove off the road. father and five year old daughter were killed. Mom mangled. Really shocking event for a child (referring to myself).

I have to admit I have a really strong tendency to fall asleep driving myself. I'm sometimes amazed I haven't had an accident yet; I guess my guardian angle has been working overtime. I drive a van with a bed in the back. As much as I can discipline myself I now pull over and climb in back to sleep; The problem is the bed is so comfy I usually don't wake up until early morning. But I'm fresh for the rest of the drive home.

I also carry a can of coke or starbucks in my glove box if I need a little hit of caffeine late at night.
Greg Barnes

climber
Sep 17, 2009 - 11:23pm PT
Pull off and sleep a bit!

That's also how eastside climbing legend Smoke Blanchard died - late at night driving home on 395, after a long flight back into the US from one of his frequent trekking trips to Japan.
adatesman

Trad climber
philadelphia, pa
Sep 17, 2009 - 11:26pm PT
Going home from a party once in high school I swear to God, there was a 15 foot tall fat woman in spandex jogging down the center of the interstate. Mind you the drugs/alcohol thing didn't occur to me until many years later; this was entirely due to having been awake 40+ hours. Ever since then I either pull over and nap or pass the driving on to someone else.

On a side note, pulling over can lead to good times... Like when I woke up to a horrible thumping sound only to find a Chinook helicopter hovering 50' above the car. Since then I make a point of not napping near military bases....
stevep

Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
Sep 17, 2009 - 11:32pm PT
In high school a friend and I both fell asleep at the same time while driving back from a late night party at Magic Mountain. Fortunately we were woken by bouncing along the shoulder before we hit the overpass abutment.
Bottom line. It's a bad idea.
Beatrix Kiddo

Mountain climber
Littleton
Sep 17, 2009 - 11:37pm PT
None of those energy drinks do anything for me. I pulled over once with the intent to sleep for 10 minutes. I woke up 45 minutes later. My partner was still waiting for me. What a good dude. I used to drive tired. I'd try all kinds of tricks to stay awake. Now I pull over and nap. If I'm late, oh well, at least I'm not dead or anyone else for that matter.
mojede

Trad climber
Butte, America
Sep 18, 2009 - 12:10am PT
In Montana, after midnight the highways are nearly empty, making single vehicle roll-overs the number one killer here (80%). I pull over quickly if I am driving in new or unfamiliar areas, but generally use eKat's (and her Father's) method of putting on the driving hat when behind the wheel and going into trucker/Nascar mode--being as professional as possible. Being a passenger however, I crash into REM shortly after conversation ends (trust in the driver) and am of no good on long hauls--it's better to let me drive if you want someone always awake behind the wheel, Mtn. Dew anyone.

I did have an incident as a newish driver coming back to the Bay Area from skiing Squaw all day, and the only thing that woke me were the Botz Dots on 280? near Sunnyvale (home). Scared the shite out of me--from then on my driving became more vigilant.

Rough ordeal to go through, Donini.




edit: (OP answer) so far...

tom woods

Gym climber
Bishop, CA
Sep 18, 2009 - 12:29am PT
Driving while fighting sleep feels terrible. It's up there with nausea.

I did it just yesterday. It had been a while. This one sucked because I had been working since 4:30 am and still had to drive to finish work. Otherwise I would have pulled over.

I've learned the close call lesson enough. I knew I should pull over under a tree, I wanted to pull over under a tree, but damn I had to get back to work.

I feel I should apologize, as I could have killed my self, and who knows who else out on 395.
Melissa

Gym climber
berkeley, ca
Sep 18, 2009 - 12:34am PT
I started this thread some years ago about a sleepy driving experience that I had. In general, I try not to set myself up for it b/c the risks of pulling over by myself can be icky too.

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=20989&msg=20989#msg20989
hoipolloi

climber
A friends backyard with the neighbors wifi
Sep 18, 2009 - 12:49am PT
Sunflower seeds.



These are key for me. Gum does not work, it gets pushed to the side of the mouth and forgotten about. But I tell you, Sunflower seeds keep the mouth and mind working and do an amazing job of keeping me awake and going.


But still, there is a point were pulling over and taking a nap is the right thing to do, for yourself and for everyone else on the road.

Don't die, don't kill others. Just take the nap.
WBraun

climber
Sep 18, 2009 - 12:59am PT
So .....

It's safe to say; "Everyone is falling asleep at the wheel"
Big Piton

Trad climber
Ventura
Sep 18, 2009 - 01:03am PT
I am falling in line with the problem of driving tired. I got to the point it didn't matter if I hit the road in the morning leaving YV. By the time I was south of Fresno I would be sleepy.

Then I heard on some show about this problem. The Doc or just someone smarter then most said that you should build up a sleeping "bank". Get as much sleep for three or four days before your trip. It works for me.

Coffee driving = I would drive to an area the night before class. Then when I got there I would be wide awake. Got little sleep then guided all day half a sleep. I couldn't wait to go to sleep after guiding all day.
zeta

Trad climber
Bezerkly
Sep 18, 2009 - 01:49am PT
i used to have a problem with this a lot--still do...a long drive solo with a big open horizon and hot beating sun just begins to make me sleepy..

But I *used to* do things like chew gum, blast the radio, drink copious amounts of coffee, blast the A/C, slap my thighs...and still it only partially worked. Had enough close calls in my 20s that now I know better.

I always pull over and sleep in a parking lot. Every time, no matter the time, no matter how close I am to home. Most of the time I only need about 20-30 minutes of sleep, then walk around the car or gas station, hydrate and then start driving again. Nothing is that important that it can't wait a bit of time.

mucci

Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
Sep 18, 2009 - 02:59am PT
good thread here Nutjob!

I would rather die on a climb.

Donini- wow, a true testament to the dangers that can await us all at the end of the day. I am sorry for your loss.

Mucci
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
Sprocketville
Sep 18, 2009 - 03:08am PT
if the camp rates drop in half for sunday night,
you just kick it and stay over the extra night,
everybody does the rat race to get home to their stinkin job to earn their pay
they leave stuff behind, which goes in your trunk
you leave early morning or whatever you have to do to beat the traffic
and start your stinkin job and get your pay.
you get an extra night in the sticks and fresh air
i;m jus sayin...\
camp lotus on the Am river is 5 bucks on sunday , so wtf, over?
Dr. Duct Tape

Trad climber
La Honda, CA
Sep 18, 2009 - 03:21am PT
If you read the studies by Drs. Dement and Powell you will find that driving while sleep-deprived is as dangerous as driving drunk. Driving faster will only work for a while and then you will be even more exhausted when the adrenalin wears off. Many drivers experience "micro-sleep" and fortunately wake up before fatal consequences. Others do not and it can happen in seconds, even if you are hauling ass with the windows down and the stereo turned up. Pull Over!

Many people have lousy sleep to begin with, even fit climbers. If you have a sleep disorder, your chances of a sleep-related accident are much greater. Take the time to do an Epworth Sleepiness Scale on yourself and see if you have a problem:

http://www.stanford.edu/~dement/epworth.html

If your score is over 10, then you may have a serious problem. Sleep disorders, especially sleep apnea can lead to unexplained weight gain, poor physical & mental performance, progressive dementia and even sudden-death arrythmia. I lost a good friend to this. He was a fit climber/kayaker one of the best disaster physicians this country has ever known.

The best treatment for sleepy driving is rest. Take an extra day off if you plan to do a weekend epic. If you are that dedicated to climbing then you should not let your work schedule increase your risk. Think of it as another important form of acclimatization or decompression.

If you have no choice in the matter, which you realy do, you can try caffiene. For many people, Red Bull works better, probably because it doesn't have high-fructose corn sweetener and is less likely to cause a "sugar crash" and because the taurine and inositol in it have a calming (but not sedating) effect. I small can has 81mg of caffiene, which is equal to 1 espresso (drip coffee is about 110mg / cup).

There are "wonder drugs" available called Provigil, and its newer sibling Nuvigil. These provide 8 to 12 hours of "normal" wakefulness without the jitters of caffiene or the paranoia / mania of amphetamines or cocaine. What's more, if you have taken Provigil/Nuvigil and find that you no longer need to stay awake and desire to sleep, you can by simply lying down in a dark and quiet place. This is very helpful to disaster / SAR workers who need to stay awake, but also need to get sleep when they can. These drugs were developed and tested on military pilots and E.R. doctors and nurses with frequent shift changes. They are currently only indicated (i.e. covered by insurance) for improving wakefulness in adult patients with excessive sleepiness associated with narcolepsy, obstructive sleep apnea/hypopnea syndrome, and shift work sleep disorder. They cost $5 to $7 a pill, cheaper than most Starbucks.

I have taken them when I had to drive somewhere with a carload of teenagers after a full work week, leaving late and driving in a blizzard that turned a 4 hour drive into a 7 hour drive. I felt completely alert and calm at the same time with no anxiety about falling asleep. When I finally arrived, I could go to sleep right away if I lay down without distraction. However, if there were interesting people / conversations about, I would just as easily continue to stay up. I found that 8-16 oz of Red Bull is fairly close, but with did not last as long and did not provide as much confidence that I would stay awake. YMMV.

Remember, Sleep is a debt that must be repaid.

Drive Safely,

Rich Lee




superbum

Trad climber
Bishop, CA
Sep 18, 2009 - 03:35am PT
Leaving Montana, bound for home in the Eastern Sierra after some very significant sends in the Tetons and Idaho's Sawtooths found us pushing the peddle to the metal in order to make it to our respective jobs...18 hours nonstop from Polebridge Monana (West Glacier Nat. Park) to 40 miles North of Bishop, Ca I fell asleep at the wheel...

Just a swerve and a jolt of adrenaline kept me from speeding into the sage.

I'd raher drink and drive then sleep and drive....
stevep

Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
Sep 18, 2009 - 09:12am PT
Again, it's a bad idea.
But if one were to want to stay up for other reasons, dark chocolate covered espresso beans have worked well for me.
seamus mcshane

climber
Sep 18, 2009 - 10:40am PT
Pull the f*#k over!!!
I was lucky to walk away...
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Sep 18, 2009 - 11:01am PT
I'm very impressed that Jim has come forward with his story. He told me about it years ago and I thought of him after John's accident. Of course he doesn't add that he went and joined the Green Berets, and it may have helped in creating a great climber.

I'm also glad somebody pointed out the rangers' dangerous policy of rousting people that have pulled over.


The dirty little secret of climbing; people say that they should be able to climb because THEY assume the risk, but sadly the general public is endangered by marathon drives.
Ray-J

Social climber
east L.A. vato...
Sep 18, 2009 - 11:04am PT
Wow donini, tough one. So sorry.

Seen some strange stuff on the interstate at night.

Whowee seen some close ones.

Cars...just stopped.

Or, hey, what's than firebird doing crossing the line up there...?

Un real.

Driving is something I throw my civillian mind out for,
And put on the para-military task related one. There
Is special music for calculating in dense traffic, traffic
Strat and a full bag of tricks to avoid idiots.

Keep your eyes on the road.

I do not care if you eat sh#t,
Just don't take me with you.

Number of years driving: age 16 to 52
Number of my fault accidents: 0
Number overall: next to none.

Just had a light rear ender stopped behind
A bus, I was cool, he was cool, scuffs, no damage.
Driver said he was dicking w/ his flip-flop, caught
Under the pedal, when he bumped my humvee.

Think about being in a major crash, trying to escape
In phuking flip flops.

Watch the road.
End of rant
Happy trails. :)
AbeFrohman

Trad climber
new york, NY
Sep 18, 2009 - 11:10am PT
I used to do a lot of field work along the Hudson River. My boss and I would drive up from Long Island at around 4 or 5AM. we'd drive home after a long day out in the sun. We would responsibly take turns driving home. But which ever of us WASN'T driving, would fall asleep riding shotgun, but FORGET they werent driving, and startle awake with a big GASP! and grab at the windshield. Funny stuff to watch from the driver's seat.
andy@climbingmoab

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Sep 18, 2009 - 11:30am PT
When i'm tired at all I shut off the cruise control. Whenever I can't maintain a consistent speed or the speed limit starts to feel too high, its nap time.

I once made an awful very little sleep and hungover solo drive from Portland, OR to Park City, UT. I had to pull over to nap a dozen times on that drive. The final one was at the Shopko parking lot in Salt Lake just before starting up the last 15 minutes of interstate to my house. I felt like a tool for having to pull over that close, but sometimes you just have to.
Josh Higgins

Trad climber
San Diego
Sep 18, 2009 - 11:42am PT
It wasn't a climbing trip, but I passed out driving home from a friend's around 2am. I was whizzing along at 75mph, and woke to my truck trashing through the dirt and instantly started battling the steering wheel for survival. I managed to not roll, and came to a stop with a retaining wall lined up to cut my truck in half about 5' off my bumper. There was construction along the freeway, and the next day when I drove the same stretch of road I realized that of about 15 miles I flew off the road in one of two quarter mile stretches that were relatively flat dirt. Scary sh#t. The truck limped home, and I had a sh#t-eating grin when I paid $1600 dollars for the repairs, because I was alive. I've never pushed my limits since. That line is a fuzzy one, and once you've crossed it and fallen asleep it's just up to dumb luck.

Josh
Swami Jr.

Trad climber
Bath, NY
Sep 18, 2009 - 11:55am PT
thanks for this thread. It makes me wonder if Supertopo would be willing to host a ride share platform for climbing trips. This could cut down on the rope solo driving late at night and also cut down on our gas consumption, which is really considerable given that many of us travel hours to get to yosemite and elsewhere.
Fletcher

Trad climber
Shivasana
Sep 18, 2009 - 11:55am PT
A lot of good suggestions and advice here. I know that heavy lidded feeling and trying to push it through. No mishaps for me, but from now on I'm pulling over.

I've found over the years that diet has an effect on my car sleepiness. If I'm eating a lot of sugary and junk carb type foods, that increases the sleepy factor a lot. Eating protein helps avoid sleepiness. Of course, if I'm dead tired, food choices aren't going to make a difference.

I scored 5 on the sleepy test scale!

Eric
Steve's sister

Social climber
Las Vegas, NV
Sep 18, 2009 - 12:00pm PT
Pull over and take a nap!!!!!!!!!!
No excuses........the one you kill may not be yourself.

Think of your families and friends, as they are the ones who will suffer. A kind of suffering that never, ever goes away!!!!!

There are no heros who can make it through sleepiness forever, it will catch you and kill you, or worse, kill someone else.

mrtropy

Trad climber
Nor Cal
Sep 18, 2009 - 03:18pm PT
One of the few right things that I do the right thing. I love to nap so it's not big deal to me. I love that feelng of sleeping rolling over me and letting go rather that fighting it. Had a great nap earlier this year on the lower parts of SPH after climbing with Miwok and a friend's kid. No use putting us both to risk, pulled over and we both dropped off and then were good to go. Amazing what a 20 minute power nap can do.
Brian in SLC

Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
Sep 18, 2009 - 03:34pm PT
Whew, tough thread.

I'm a road warrior (I suspect most climbers are). Drove from Bozeman to Mexico once, three of us, 3000 miles in 60 hours straight through.

Been in a car when the driver fell asleep. We were lucky. Coming back from Gardner to Bozeman and picked the only spot on that drive to go off the road and be able to get the car back on track.

Also, sleepy following a looong day in Great Falls, back to Missoula, middle of nowhere, 2am, falling asleep at the wheel but for my damn plymouth duster's poor steering linkage yankin' the car back and forth, and, we were first on the scene of a driver who had fallen asleep, gone off the road, and hit a concrete culvert. There were three in the car. One of the grimmest things I've ever seen.

Co-workers killed by cell phone texters...

Had friends hit a black cow on the highway on a dark night in Nevada (way home from Tuolumne).

Just saw 7 pounds (the movie)...

You get all these reminders. I've really changed my driving habits. I mostly try to commute to climbing destinations in the day light. I leave extra time following a climb to get home.

I pull over, find a gas station and punch some red bull or monster or whatever. If that doesn't work, then sleep.

Scary business...

-Brian in SLC
Homer

Mountain climber
Santa Cruz, CA
Sep 18, 2009 - 03:47pm PT
I'm really sorry donini. It's a learning trip for all of us. Hard to tell where our limits are until we reach them. Pushing them may be part of what makes us who we are.

I'm with the short nap strategy. Sometimes 10 minutes on 10 minutes off. Don't worry about getting home late - everyone's already gone to sleep without you.
rhyang

climber
SJC
Sep 18, 2009 - 04:18pm PT
I've yet to meet anyone who broke their neck climbing (I suppose it's just a matter of time).

But after my accident I've read about multiple climbers who fell asleep at the wheel and rolled their cars.
Jerry Dodrill

climber
Sebastopol, CA
Sep 18, 2009 - 05:33pm PT
I'm a habitual roadside sleeper. Hotel parking lots are the best. Just pull to the back. Orchards work too. I slept in one a mile from my house this spring. That close and I just couldn't finish the drive.

Related thoughts written last winter:
http://jerrydodrill.blogspot.com/2008/12/easy-street.html

rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Sep 18, 2009 - 06:59pm PT
"I knew my driving turn was over whenever the yellow double lines curled up into smoky wisps that floated off the road."

Holy crap. That was bad judgement. I would never ever let things get that far. Oh, except for that one time in high school driving home from Disneyland where I noticed that I was 20 minutes closer to home but didn't remember any of that 20 minutes.

Dave
noshoesnoshirt

climber
Arkansas, I suppose
Sep 18, 2009 - 07:03pm PT
I was driving back from Vegas one time. I'd just crosssed the New Mexico/Arizona line and just put a tape in the deck. I looked up and I was at mile marker thirty and the tape was playing side 2.

I don't have any memory of the missing thirty minutes. And instead of pulling over and catching a nap, my reaction was along the lines of "hell yeah, I can sleep and drive".


Bad news.
rich sims

Trad climber
co
Sep 18, 2009 - 07:20pm PT
Jerry Dodrill
I'm a habitual roadside sleeper. Hotel parking lots are the best. Just pull to the back. Orchards work too. I slept in one a mile from my house this spring. That close and I just couldn't finish the drive.
Boy I am now
I was rousted by a cop for sleeping on a side road along I70 after a long day of riding through the trees.
I said WTF you want me to drive till I crash and kill someone?


Late 70s coming back to the Valley after an all nighters at Mammoth hot springs I was driving on the wrong side of the road and my copilot asked why I was driving on the wrong side.
I casually told her I was bored but it scared me. I decided never again.

In my teens I was driving from San Diego to Florida nonstop, no drugs.
I woke up on the opposite side of a stand of trees form the highway. I drove through some trees and paralleled the road for a couple of hundred yards.
That was some where in Alabama
perswig

climber
Sep 18, 2009 - 07:45pm PT
Junior year of undergrad, after finals. I'm hammered from a week of all-nighters, Viverin, and stress. So I jump in the rig to head home at about 1600. Home is four hours. Five hours later I pull into the driveway of my girlfriend's PARENTS, a place I've been exactly once. It's in the same state, but only the first 60 miles in common with where I'm supposed to be. No idea how I got there, no idea why (still wondering that in a Freudian way). Another 2.5 hours to get home, after saying Hi and Sorry to her folks and getting the OK to sleep in their driveway.
Plenty of 17-hour trips home from vet school over the next 4 years, but learned my lesson and left the next day, after plenty of sleep and decompression.
Dale
14re3

Boulder climber
Twin Peaks ,CA
Oct 5, 2009 - 12:39am PT
Fell asleep on the way back from Brutus memorial in Marin 2 seconds: my oldest yelled truck & I said stupidly "I was asleep"
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Oct 5, 2009 - 03:21am PT
hey there donini... say, very very sorry to hear of this sadness and the harm to others, in your life... hugs and prayers to you, for such pain...

say, not sure if you know chappy, but his brother, my brother--matt... i heard tell that he drove our dad's anglia off the road once... he lived to tell about it... not sure if he was coming back from yosemite or not... '

i remember the shock of what could have happened, and how i felt when i heard that--he had fallen asleep...

dear valgrl---i have not forgotten "tacos" ... i seem to remember that you had said something about her falling asleep...
sure hope you hear from her again one day... :(

*have not read all these post yet, but---i never had such a fear or experience, UNTIL i had suddenly been giving odd working hours that my brain could not handle... i knew it, but i had to do the hours or lose my job.... i felt this awful pull and was ready to pull over, too... trouble was, by the time it hit, there was NO chance to pull over, due to traffic... i was ready to find some other kind of plan, when the job ended, due to my hip-sciatic injury... i thank god for this, now, looking back, as of recent...

not stopping, would be the same as drunk driving, and--a crime again others... we must accept this, and do the proper thing and stop... if we can't find a way to stop or a proper place--perhaps we ought NOT to take such a route ever again....

life is too precious...
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Oct 5, 2009 - 03:38am PT
hey there seamus and DMT, say, i am very glad you are still with us... and say, just as glad too, that others were not hurt in these awful episodes...

let's keep this all to heart, folks...
life is a gift to take care of honorably, as any gift should be...

oh my...

i will thank the good lord right now that my ex somehow got us safe from texas to san jose, and back, all those many years...

or---there'd not be grandkids here today...
thank you dear lord, above...
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Oct 5, 2009 - 05:13am PT
hey there say, this driving issue is a very heavy and sad thing and it trails the tired brains of many a driver...

i just had to find some more info on this--perhaps it will help someone...

folks do NOT realize that they cannot talk themselves out of falling asleep, or, they cannot do enough tricks to work... sure, some tricks yes, may stall a tired brain for a bit, and make one feel like one has successfully tackled the trip home, but sooner or later, one will press the issue to far---and, when the "real issue" is ready to kick you can't stop it, and that is due to this fact:

the brain shuts down... (which is obvious, as you don't even know what is going on then)
also, "micro sleep" hits drivers at such time (which is a fast shut-down that can occur, before the full shut-down)...

falling asleep can happen in pieces, so they say:
Your Brain Goes to Sleep (and Wakes Up) in Pieces
sciam.com — If you're too tired to think straight, it might be because parts of your brain are already asleep at the wheel. Scientists are challenging the belief that a specific region of the brain makes the call to hit the sack. Instead, our brains power down in stages, they say. If a certain group of cells in our brain gets fatigued, it imply shuts off.
from here:
http://www.scientificamerican.com/podcast/episode.cfm?id=brain-sacks-out-in-stag

es-08-11-11

here's more serious info:

Sleep debt
Carolyn Fay 2007 Oct 18 Definitions
The brain keeps track of the accumulated hours of wakefulness. One hour of sleep is needed to "pay off" every two hours of wakefulness. When the sleep debt load is high enough, the brain will essentially force one into sleep, which is what happens when drowsy drivers fall asleep at the wheel. Although sleep debt must be paid back eventually, there is unfortunately no way to "stockpile" sleep in the event of future shortages. Dement notes, too, that there have been no studies on long term sleep debt, and so it is unknown whether the brain keeps track of sleep debt past two weeks or so. And while a large sleep debt can be a very dangerous thing, a small sleep debt is good, because it allows us to fall asleep quickly and stay asleep.

Test subjects with no sleep debt often have difficulty both falling asleep quickly and staying asleep the whole night through.

i have one more bit, but will post it seperate, as this is so long already....

thanks for starting this post/thread...
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Oct 5, 2009 - 05:20am PT
hey there, say all... here is the last bit that i found.... sure hope it helps folks know when to stop

**helpful hints:
from here:
http://www.medem.com/?q=medlib/article/ZZZHD2NDIWE**

Here are some potentially life-saving tips for avoiding drowsy driving:

Be well rested before hitting the road. If you have several nights in a row of fewer than seven to eight hours of sleep, your reaction time slows. Restoring that reaction time to normal often takes more than one night of good sleep, because your sleep debt accumulates after each night you lose sleep. It may take several nights of being well rested to repay that sleep debt and ensure that you are ready for driving on a long road trip.

Avoid driving between midnight and 7 a.m. Unless you are accustomed to being awake then, this period of time is when we are naturally the most tired.

Don't drive alone. A companion who can keep you engaged in conversation might help you stay awake while driving.

Schedule frequent breaks on long road trips. If you feel sleepy while driving, pull off the road and take a nap for 15 to 20 minutes.

Don't drink alcohol. Just one beer when you are sleep deprived will affect you as much as two or three beers when you are well rested.

Don't count on caffeine. Although drinking a cola or a cup of coffee might help keep you awake for a short time, it won't overcome excessive sleepiness or relieve a sleep debt.
Opening a window or turning up the radio won't help you stay awake while driving. (micro sleep can still set in--your brain just shuts down no such stimulation registers then)

Be aware of these warning signs that you are too sleepy to drive safely: trouble keeping your eyes focused, continual yawning or being unable to recall driving the last few miles.

Remember, if you are short on sleep, stay out of the driver's seat!
The Wolf

Trad climber
Martinez, CA
Oct 5, 2009 - 10:26am PT
I had two friends killed when their car broke down on the freeway early one morning on their way to work. They were walking the side of the freeway home to get another car. They were only 1/4 mile from their house. A young guy coming off a graveyard shift fell asleep at the wheel and took them out. Lots of sadness all around.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Oct 5, 2009 - 11:13am PT
I take a nap. In fact, often have a sleeping bag in the car in case I'm tired and it's cold.

But I had to learn this as I age. Last time I had a hard solo day, last month, I pulled over and took a 2 hour nap within 10 miles of my home. But get home I did!
14re3

Boulder climber
Twin Peaks ,CA
Oct 8, 2009 - 02:30am PT
Have pulled over several times to nap when working 7p to 7a/ One tine I guess i looked dead! CHP knocking on my window & I told him I worked nights.
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Oct 8, 2009 - 03:12am PT
hey there say, .... stopping to take a nap... :)

GOOD for you both.... :)

someones' family thanks you... we will never know who...
and that is a good thing, in this case... :)

god bless you guys...
susan peplow

climber
www.joshuatreevacationhomes.com
Oct 8, 2009 - 03:56am PT
A few months back I got to the point where couldn't make a round trip from AZ to CA without having to bivy on at least one leg of the trip. How pathetic is it that I couldn't handle a 5 hour drive anymore? Sometime I would pull off at rest stops or an off-ramp within 40 miles of my house.

I can't figure out if my inability to drive distances is a byproduct of old age or just that 8+ year of commuting has caught up with me.

To be honest I push it way more than I should. I'm more likely to die driving while asleep than climbing.

Then again, Russ and Werner are likely to just say, "when your numbers up...it's up"

~Susan

neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Oct 8, 2009 - 11:35am PT
hey there say, dear susan... we DONT' want your number up too soon...

no matter when you feel tired.. just pull over...
someone, and everyone, that loves you will be glad...

so you will, too... ;)

don't push it... it is a brain thing... and the brain will "turn off" when the battery has died, even if you try to keep it buzzing...

it's not labeling us as failure, if we have to pull over, critters know when to stop, we should be like them... :)


*it's not cause of getting old, either... many reason, and the young are affected too...

god bless so much, to you... :)
franky

climber
Davis, CA
Oct 8, 2009 - 12:19pm PT
This thread is very intense. Good life lessons here.

One time I pulled over for a little nap on 395 after climbing Mount Ritter from the Rush Creek TH (a pretty long hike in). I thought I would sleep for 30 mins or so to refresh. Slept for 6 hours instead without even a twitch. woke up with a pretty serious kink in my neck.
OR

Trad climber
So.VT.
Oct 8, 2009 - 02:04pm PT
Didnt COZ have some horrendous wreck in the late 80's from sleepy driving?
Steve's sister

Social climber
Las Vegas, NV
Aug 14, 2011 - 11:38am PT
Bump as a serious reminder to pull over and take a nap!

5 years ago yesterday my brother died due to the driver falling asleep.

Since I probably don't have any "taco cred" as most of you don't know me and I rarely post, I'll quote someone most/all of you respect and admire.

John Bachar said "Man, I thought I was macho and could make it. I'm not. I'm in Ely at a hotel. I started getting tired in the exact same place on the road. Decided to just stay over."

Please, please. please decide to just stay/pull over.
jstan

climber
Aug 14, 2011 - 02:27pm PT
After having three near fatal collisions in one hour while barely staying in my lane, I gave up and stopped at an I/O burger for a nap. I have done a lot of dumb things. That one is at the top of my list.

The problem creeps up on you. Next time I will implement a test. Pull over and try to sleep. If sleep won't come, get back on the road. Just the possibility that the stop will be short should make it easier to pull off the road.

Edit:
Locker is alive only because the desert can be forgiving.

I'll tell this story, again. George, a neighbor in JT was riding along while his wife was driving. She asked, "What is that noise?"

George replied. "It's just the bushes. The road is over there."

Edit:
I might add that this story shows succinctly what is needed for a marriage to be successful.

Young persons would do well to hear this story.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Aug 14, 2011 - 08:22pm PT
Did it just today. Pulled over that is. Early afternoon on my way from Berserkely to Los Gatos, only 15 miles to home, getting snoozy on 17, pulled off at the next exit, found the first quiet street and pulled under the shade of a tree. Parked the Prius, FORGOT to put it in park until I'd put the windows down for air. I thought "d'oh....why is my foot still on the brake?" Saw the "D" light on the dashboard, put 'er in Park and next blink I was gone for about 30 minutes. So it took me 30 minutes longer to get home?

Many times I've pushed through, luckily without crashing so far. Bad Idea. As bad as DUI.
donini, so very sorry to hear about your tragedy.
wildone

climber
Troy, MT
Aug 14, 2011 - 09:33pm PT
Yeah, well, there's always Wolfgang Gullich...
He was a roadwarrior, racking up millions of miles driving all over Europe to do slideshows for various Alpine Clubs and made a good living doing it. But he drove half asleep all the time. On his last trip, his wife made him promise to pull off the road and sleep since they now had a baby, and he agreed. So on the way home, on the autobahn, he pulled WAY off the road in a big turnout, like more than 100 feet off the road, against the trees, jacked back his seat, and resigned himself to not sleeping in his bed with his family that night, just catching them in the morning. Sometime that night, a drunk driver saw the reflectors of his taillights and thought, "damn, the road is over there" and cranked the wheel over, plowed into his parked car and killed him in his sleep.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Aug 14, 2011 - 10:15pm PT
so when we're half asleep at the wheel we should keep driving because it will be harder for the drunk driver to hit us?

RIP Wolfgang.
wildone

climber
Troy, MT
Aug 14, 2011 - 10:17pm PT
You're kidding, right?

Find a side road and never underestimate drunk people.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Aug 14, 2011 - 10:20pm PT
sorry, I was just being snarky. You're absolutely right.
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
Aug 15, 2011 - 12:29am PT
hard hiking, heat, and running the A/C on the way home this afternoon. All the traffic barly doing a mellow 40-55mph. Head nod without warning. WHOA! didn't expect that! Blam another one without barely going a mile. Time to pull over. pulled in at Groveland at the market. let the engine idle with a/c. After I let myself 'fall' or 'kick' for the Inception movie fans, I was good. Stopped in at Big Oak for a soda with caffeine. Solid home.

right thing.

Captain...or Skully

climber
or some such
Aug 15, 2011 - 01:16am PT
We prefer that you live, Rob. Please.
I've been a professional on the big Road for many years, & I know that you will die if you underestimate the power of Tired. Don't be THAT guy.



YOU WILL die! Seriously.
Steve's sister

Social climber
Las Vegas, NV
Oct 19, 2012 - 02:59pm PT
Bump as it has been over a year since we have had a serious reminder.
The holiday's are coming and some of us will be travelling.
Pull Over and get there alive and don't kill someone else!
sibylle

Trad climber
On the road!
Oct 19, 2012 - 03:12pm PT
This summer, for the first time ever, I fell asleep while driving. Fortunately, the rumble strip at the side of the lane woke me in time to jerk the wheel and get back into my lane. And it woke my passenger, who was sleeping in the back of my van ... he drove the rest of the way.

Donini, sorry to hear about your experience.

As to Güllich -- Steve McKinney, world speed skiing record holder, was also killed when he pulled off the side of the road to sleep -- at least go to a rest area.
nutjob

Gym climber
Berkeley, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 19, 2012 - 04:04pm PT
Thanks for the bump, Steve's Sister.

I've done a few things that have greatly reduced the dangerous circumstances for me driving home after climbing trips:

1. I sleep more on average (6-8 hrs/night most of the time) for several reasons:
 shifted jobs, career philosophy, and reduced my personal identity dependence on my career, so I don't work as much.
 happier daily home life after navigating through the end of a challenging marriage

2. I don't have as many adventures that push me to my physical limits in a day, or if I do, it usually involves a bivy somewhere on the route or descent and a morning drive back. And if I'm planning a big adventure, I don't plan it when I have to be at work the next morning. And sometimes, if too much adventure is in the air, I've gotten over the stigma of bailing.



BUT...

This is a timely reminder for me. I've eased into another bad cycle that involves sleepy driving. I live in Berkeley, and every Wednesday night I hang out with my band an hour away in San Jose where I used to live. We used to just jam on cover songs, but this year we've been recording a lot of original songs and spend late nights doing the studio/mixing work. Lot's of times I'm tired before we meet at 7:30 or 8pm, and then I get re-energized by what we're doing. And then it's suddenly 1am, 2am, pushing 3am sometimes, and I've got a 1 hour drive back to Berkeley.

So I've had a number of really difficult drives home, and I've lapsed into making a bad habit of it.

I hereby pledge to listen to that little voice inside, and spend the night in San Jose if it tells me I'm pushing it.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Oct 19, 2012 - 04:58pm PT
I find that a quick 20-40 minute nap (20 min increments to coincide with sleep cycles) works for me enough to get in a few mores hours driving, repeat as needed.

The only way I've found to stay awake is singing. Find a good song and sing along. Even the seconds between songs I can feel myself much more susceptible to drifting away.
bvb

Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Oct 19, 2012 - 05:11pm PT
yeah. i've been in more than a few wrecks on the way home from climbing trips. coming back from ranier we blew through a t-insterection and and hit a tree at about 8' above ground level, the tree snappeded in two, absorbing the shock, and sparing our lives. me and the ex were in alan nelsons' pinto, coming home from josh, maybe 2am, when he missed a turn and ran into a vegatable field outsite of hemit. then there was the time we were passengers driving from san diego to smith in one shot and our notorious driver fell asleep at the wheel. and there was the time roxjox was giving me and watusi a ride south from yosemite and we left i-5 at 70mph. oh, right, driving back from ibex to slc i passed out with a glass of scotch in my hand. oh, and me and goon rolled his car on the way back from stonewall. and there was the time guy andrews had his vw bus explode into flames in canyon tajo, totaling it. and then "flower" wrapped his axle around a steel fence, puncturing the oilpan and stranding us 150 miles into baja. good times. i could go on and on.

i'm a big fan of hotels these days. i don't push it anymore. last spring i took three days to drive from olympia to san diego,and it was luxurious and sane.
PellucidWombat

Mountain climber
Berkeley, CA
Oct 19, 2012 - 08:05pm PT
Great thread everyone. Thanks a lot for getting it started Nutjob. And Neebee, you taught me some new things to consider when driving tired. My parents are rightfully more worried about me driving home after a long and tiring weekend in the mountains than the climbing I'm doing.

For those driving through Yosemite, my experience with the rangers along the roadside is that while they do check for illegal camping, they are very supportive of you pulling over to sleep, and to sleep sufficiently, rather than driving tired. Unless you get too comfortable sleeping roadside, you probably won't encounter anything worse than them checking up with you, and then being left alone.

2 years ago I was trying to drive from Tuolumne Meadows down to a campsite in the Valley, and I was so tired that at one point I pulled into a TH parking lot. I figured I would just rest my eyes for a minute, so I put the car in park, but left the lights on and engine running. I awoke to an NPS ranger knocking on my window to see what was going on, as my headlights were shining out onto the road. When I told him I had pulled over to sleep, he apologized for waking me and insisted that I take all the time I needed to sleep before continuing on. I saw that I really needed to take a good nap, so I turned off the car lights and engine, and slept for an hour before driving on.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Oct 19, 2012 - 08:06pm PT
i passed out with a glass of scotch in my hand

Bob.... tell me you didn't spill a drop.


After those stories, all the 120 mph drives home from Courtwright at 2:20 am seam pretty tame.... never got wrecked, or tooled.

I use to just pull my VW van over and park it and snooze, but after what happened to Steve I stopped. It made me think.

I now do the right thing and park the car... down a side road, far away from the road.


Anastasia

climber
InLOVEwithAris.
Oct 19, 2012 - 08:16pm PT
Yes,
I was in one very bad car accident with a fatality because of a sleepy driver. You don't get over it, ever. You just live with it. To describe it accurately, it is like having ghost pains of a missing arm that you never forget, etc. A few years later I almost had a repeat with another dang sleepy driver who also was too proud to let me drive. If I had not grabbed the wheel and yelled at him... If I was not being paranoid... Yeah, it would have been a repeat of hell that isn't worth it.

After those two I'm so done... You have no idea how on the verge, just a hair width away from going berserk, done. I don't want to survive another one, ever. Luckily Bill gets it, doesn't push himself and he doesn't push me when tired. We just park in a safe place, usually a shopping parking lot and take a nap. It's better than taking the chance of losing one of us or someone else just because being sleepy.

AFS
bvb

Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Oct 20, 2012 - 06:33am PT
Bob.... tell me you didn't spill a drop.

ha! amazingly, i didn't. my head hit the steering wheel and i popped right up. i was always gifted that way. right after we moved from yosemite to boston i was at some amc or bmc party and we were fabulously, famously drunk. barry rugo was just back from summmiting everest and "give me a higher love" was up to eleven on the crowded dance floor. i dropped to my head and did a few 360's with a beer in one hand, then hopped back up on my feet. rugo stares at me dumbfouded and says "didn't spill a drop!" of course, being the naive socal guy i was at the time i had no idea who barry was, though whe ran in the same circles. that boston crowd is amazing.
ladyscarlett

Trad climber
SF Bay Area, California
Oct 20, 2012 - 03:01pm PT
After a few close calls of severely fatigued driving, I don't push it anymore.

Just too many times of blacking out and coming too with absolutely no memory of the the past seconds, minutes, miles, you name it.

I know keep tight tabs on that stuff, carry emergency caffeinated beverages behind the driver's seat (taylor's tonics axteca has a double shot of expresso! oh YEAH!) and even some last resort bits to aid in wakefulness. I'd rather have difficulty sleeping at my destination then having difficulty staying awake.

I realized a while ago that what can be just as dangerous for me is eye fatigue, where my eyes get tired enough that they just stop focusing. Eyes open and unable to see a thing...it's a little too scary for me. And yeah, I might not be all that sleepy, but damn if its scary to have my entire field of vision blur or black out.

And sometimes I DO find it harder in urban situations. I've had more close calls driving at 3am on major freeways because I'm less likely to pull over where there's 'only 20 - 40 min to go'. Nowadays, I've scoped out which parking lots and parks along my normal travel routes I feel comfortable catching a few minutes of sleep and make use of them.

And by now...I have spots at 20 minute increments all up and down both sides of the bay.

I'm still trying to find the 24hr donut places though...they are HUGE in helping me make it the last stretch of driving...

Cheers

LS
clustiere

Trad climber
berkeley ca
Oct 20, 2012 - 03:15pm PT
Yeah those offwidths on that route will do it to ya.
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Oct 20, 2012 - 09:11pm PT
hey there say, pellucidwombat...

you're welcome, as to the new info for you...

(good job anastasia, to spread the warnings)...


also, not sure if i ever found the link, but i am going to look for the man that originally share the great article about:

micro sleep...

you have NO control over it, no matter how much you 'think you are fighting it off'... it's not an 'i've got to master this and i CAN type thing'....


it is an 'auto body--brain--function' it WILL just 'HAPPEN'...
and YOU will not even be aware, as the brain as been 'ticking'
down to what it does when overtired: shut down


i am sooo glad i learned about this... i too, used to connected to
drivers who claimed they 'knew how to do this'...
however, when i was with them, they TRADED PLACES when i insisted, being that our KIDS were in these traveling cars and i had read of far
too many 'sleep accidents' when i was a kid, and was SCARED of cars...

i was like anastasia now: the mama hen, fighting to keep my babies
with a stable driver...


will edit later:
when i can look for the link...


a highway patrolman (or police officer)
lost his wife to this, when she insisted she was NOT too tired while
driving a new car back to where they lived (think that is how it goes? not sure, but he may have been working, so that may? have been why she went to do this? and perhaps for visiting? reason--i am not sure, so don't quote on this)...

it was very awful sad... :(
bvb

Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Oct 20, 2012 - 09:52pm PT
and even some last resort bits to aid in wakefulness

oh yeah ladyscarlette, that's oldschool! once me and a very old friend who shall remain nameless (i'm retired and thus bulletproof; he's still a responsibly employed small businessman) barrelled from san diego to the northwest in 24 hours fuelled by "black beauties" pilfered from his mom's medicine cabinet. we made it from san diego to sacrameto on our own, then were on artificial aid from there. perhaps not responsibible, with thirty+ years of hindsight, but it was a damned good time at the time.
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Oct 20, 2012 - 10:02pm PT
hey there say, all...

HERE IS PHIL KONSTANTIN's link to 'SLEEPY DRIVER':
BUT YOU HAVE TO SCROLL ALL THE WAY DOWN past the
native history book AND history list,
and PAST the 'sign guest book' down to:

THE DROP DOWN MENU--open that drop down
and you will see link to SLEEPY DRIVER:

http://cherokeephil.com/March.html

OOOPS--found a MUCH easier link for the same page:
http://americanindian.net/sleep.html


NOTE FROM PHIL:

Please feel free to add a link to this site. I am available for media interviews to discuss sleepy drivers or Robyn's crash. I have also made a series of TV Public Service Announcements (PSAs) for the CHP in which I talk about Robyn's crash. The PSAs are available for airplay. You can contact me by e-mail or at the address below if you would like a copy.

Phil Konstantin
P.O. Box 17515
San Diego, CA 92177-7515
(858) 505-5014

ON THE page that i put this link for, is this, as well:
plus a link to its own page:
http://americanindian.net/sleepstats.html

In my research into the cause of Robyn's crash, I am come across some interesting facts. I have links below to other internet sites which discuss the issue. I have also compiled some statistics from government sources. Here is one significant fact. More people die each year from crashes related to Drowsy, Sleepy or Fatigued Drivers than from all of the following causes COMBINED:
Plague; Anthrax; Leprosy; Diptheria; Whooping Cough; Tetanus; Smallpox; Chicken Pox; Measles; Rubella; Yellow Fever; Dengue; Mosquito-born Encephilitis; Infectious Mononucleosis; Malaria; Venereal Diseases; Vitamin A, B, C and D Difficiencies; Gout; Glaucoma; Cataracts; Hemorrhoids; Chronic Sinusitis; Pregnancies with Abortive Outcomes; Impetigo; Psoriasis; Spina Bifida; Cleft Palate and Cleft Lip; Bites from Snakes, Lizards and Spiders; Dog Bites; Hornet, Wasp and Bee Stings; Catacylsmic Earth Movements and Eruptions; and Fireworks.

APRIL 6 day of each year--DRIVER awareness day resolution for calif
http://americanindian.net/resolution.html

Phil

and, this:
There are several ironic circumstances in Robyn's death. She was a good driver. Robyn had passed a rest area approximately one mile before she crashed. I am a California Highway Patrol Officer. My present assignment is in the Public Affairs field. One of the subjects I cover frequently is the dangers of driving when you are fatigued, drowsy or sleepy

no matter how many times i read his story, i still cry...
:(
bvb

Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Oct 20, 2012 - 10:11pm PT
yep, sticking your head out of the window at 70mph in sub freezing temps to stay awake. forgot about that one. once me and joc were driving from san diego to the valley very late at night. we made it to a pullout just inside the valley -- we had a place to live 30 miles away, so it wasen't like we were poaching -- but we were so legitimately exhasted we felt like we were a threat to ourselves and others. then we get tooled by a ranger who forces us back behind the wheel! incredible. as a supervisor, in southern utah, in later years, i made sure everyone knew not to force some exhasted people back behind the wheel. give 'em a ride to a motel if you have to be that badassed about it.
ladyscarlett

Trad climber
SF Bay Area, California
Oct 20, 2012 - 11:51pm PT
perhaps not responsibible, with thirty+ years of hindsight, but it was a damned good time at the time.

Ahhh, well, I'm always torn on the responsibility stance. I don't actually like no-doze, and every time I've leaned on it, I've paid a substantial price in later days. Sleep doesn't like to be denied for me and generally in the following days, I'm near useless. I hate it, but at the point I even consider it, I'm ready to pay the steep price for a safe ride home. Rare, but I won't say it never happens, or that it never will happen.

Luckily, I've gained a bit more experience in planning my trips so I'm not too exhausted for the ride back. The trip isn't over until I pull up in front of my house, and that's how I think of things. It helps that now I'm not afraid to insist on a hot cup of coffee before the trip home officially commences, even if we have to take out the stove!

Cheers

LS



Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Oct 21, 2012 - 01:33am PT
From a paper on countermeasures:

The most common countermeasures were to stop to take a walk (54%), turn on the radio/stereo (52%), open a window (47%), drink coffee (45%) and to ask passengers to engage in conversation (35%).

Logistic regression analysis showed that counteracting sleepiness with a nap (a presumably efficient method) was practiced by those with experience of sleep-related crashes or of driving during severe sleepiness, as well as by professional drivers,
Captain...or Skully

climber
Oct 21, 2012 - 01:39am PT
Did I ever tell ya about the junction of Tennessee & Virginia, hauling boxed beef to the Bronx from Kansas? I drove that road 20 times before I ever saw it, awake, fully anyhow.....
It ain't just you. It's a big road, after all......
mission

Social climber
boulder,co
Oct 22, 2012 - 11:44pm PT
Pedro told me that he brings jalapeno peppers on the long drive to Mexico.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Oct 23, 2012 - 12:09am PT
If you are sleepy...PULL OVER and rest! In 1962 I fell asleep at the wheel and two of my passengers died including my best friend.


READ THIS!!! READ THIS!!! READ THIS!!!
Captain...or Skully

climber
Oct 23, 2012 - 12:15am PT
Word, Jim.
It cannot be emphasized enough.
So sorry, man. That's frickin harsh.
Steve's sister

Social climber
Las Vegas, NV
Dec 11, 2012 - 03:53pm PT
Bump! Holiday driving reminder..........
Adamame

climber
Santa Cruz
Dec 11, 2012 - 04:11pm PT
I eat puffy cheetos to stay awake. They get stuck in my teeth and I stay awake picking them out.
crunch

Social climber
CO
Dec 11, 2012 - 05:33pm PT
Climbed a route on Mt Alice, in RMNP, got utterly lost hiking back Sunday night (cloudy, no stars, kept going round in circles in the forest) arrived back at the car about 3am. we both had to work at 8 in Boulder. After we drank our celebratory beers at the car, Dan tried to drive (it was his car) and he made it about 3-4 miles, pulled over.

I took over, made it to Boulder, just. I could stay on the road but certainly not on my side. Luckily there was no other traffic. Had stereo blasting, windows open, screaming into the wind. Dan fell asleep the instant he sat down. Had to stop on outskirts of town to get gas, and this was back in the pre-credit card days when one had to actually go in, leave a 20-spot, pump, then go back in for change (gas was cheap, too). I stumbled bravely in with money in hand and could not utter a word, just stare, zombie-like and hope the guy could figure out what I wanted.

That Monday was a really productive day at work.....
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Apr 28, 2014 - 03:25pm PT
I'm taking online traffic school right now... thought I'd share this bit as a public service announcement"

HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 28, 2014 - 04:29pm PT
I've fallen asleep "at the wheel" on a long motorcycle ride. Tracy CA to Salt Lake City via Yosemite and Tioga Pass, overnight, nonstop except for gas and meals and two or three naps at the side of the road.
At about hour 24hrs, dozed off in the middle of the morning just after Winnemucca (or was it before?) at about 70 mph.
Woke up just as my front wheel crossed the white line on the roadside. Got on the brakes, pulled off to the side. Crawled (nearly literally) up into the sagebrush. About the time my eyes closed my two buddies showed up on their bikes. We all sacked out in the sun for an hour.
Crazy f***ing 22 year old kids!

The scariest warning on NutAgain's DMV list is suddenly realizing you don't remember the past few minutes. That one can sneak up on you.

I've finally learned three "tricks"
1 - if you're feeling dozy STOP as soon as is reasonably safe. If you can't get off the road turn on your flashers, slow down, move right and stop when you can. At least if you hit something you're more likely to live.

2 - A quick test is to get out and walk around for 10-15 minutes. Sometimes it takes step 3.

3 - SLEEP. I suppose everyone's different on this one. 15 - 20 mins works for me. I'm fortunate that I can sleep anywhere (even while driving a motorcycle). Then after I sleep, I do the walk around for 15 minutes again. Occasionally I've taken a second nap.

I've been extremely lucky to have waked up just in time a few times without a crash.

The No-Doze thing:
NO WAY for me.
Back in the stone age, about the time I fell asleep on my motorcycle, I was driving overnight in a blizzard in Indiana. "Had to make" some place or other in the morning. No-dozed up I noticed in the rear view mirror flashing red and blue lights. I slowed down and the lights got a bit closer but never passed me. After 10 minutes or so (of course I had no idea how long) the red/blue lights turned to amber/white and the big rig pulled out and passed me. I was hallucinating! Pulled over ASAP and had Frank take over the wheel. Never again.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Nov 13, 2015 - 11:53am PT
Bump. Neebee just reminded me of this thread from here: http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2716188&

I have actually done a good job overall of making a permanent change in behavior. I have slept on the side of the road at least a handful of times since then, but I have had a few lapses in judgement over the past few years. But when it gets ugly, I do consistently stop now. That is in the midst of a new life pattern where I drive back and forth from LA to SF about 10 times during a summer, along with whatever driving to reach vacation destinations (Wyoming, Idaho, Utah, Nevada, Oregon). I've had many days of 750+ mile driving, mostly LA to SF and back. But honestly, climbing has been on the back burner for me the last few years so I haven't really been tested.

After all that, I still think the worst is the drive home after doing a climb that pushes you to your physical limits. Plan to sleep at least a few hours first, then do the drive.

This is a warning to myself as much as anybody, as I see more Eastern Sierra adventures in my future- backcountry skiing and climbing during weekends from LA. Time pressure for sure, but remember life is precious.

hamersorethumb

Trad climber
Menlo Park, CA
Nov 13, 2015 - 12:00pm PT
Thanks for sharing life saving information.
Lurkingtard

climber
Nov 13, 2015 - 12:07pm PT

I been warped by the rain
Driven by the snow
I'm drunk and dirty, don't ya know
And I'm still, oh, I'm still
I'm out on the road late at night
I see my pretty Alice in every headlight
Alice, Dallas Alice

I've been from Tucson to Tucumcari
Tehachapi to Tonapah
Driven every kind of rig that's ever been made
Now I've driven the back roads
So I wouldn't get weighed
And if you give me weed, whites, and wine
Then you show me a sign
I'll be willin' to be movin'

Now I smuggled some smokes
And folks from Mexico
Baked by the sun
Almost every time I go to Mexico
And I'm willin'

And I've been kicked by the wind
Robbed by the sleet
Had my head stoved in
But I'm still on my feet
And I'm willin', oh, I'm willin'


plund

Social climber
OD, MN
Nov 13, 2015 - 01:40pm PT
damn, donini, that's harsh, and huge of you to reveal...

As another brutal reminder, RIP Herb Brooks, coach of the 1980 Olympic 'Miracle on Ice' team & a true hockey genius. Went off Hwy 35 & rolled; theory is he nodded off; anyone who's driven up here in Minnie knows that there ain't much going on with that road.

After several good scares in my younger days, decided that a quick car nap is better than a permanent dirt nap.
Off White

climber
Tenino, WA
Nov 13, 2015 - 01:57pm PT
I'd forgotten this thread, it deserves a bump every now and then. One of the best threads on ST I think. I've fallen asleep twice, but not in the last 32 years, and no fatalities, though that's due to nothing but luck. I too have learned to love the power nap. Nowadays I take one when my eyes start to cross, just to keep from hitting my head on the keyboard.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Feb 18, 2019 - 05:41pm PT
eKat, thanks for bringing up the circadian rhythm factor.

I know when I push myself without sleep, the stretch around 2am to 5am is the worst, almost unbearable at 5am, and then as it gets light a second wave of energy comes on. Those same times are a totally different experience if it's at the start of an extended day versus the end of it. Important stuff for planning when to drive.

Sleeping first and then an "alpine start" on the drive home makes more sense than pushing through- can be to work at the same time (when compared with pushing through and sleeping at home).

I just re-read this whole thread for some fortification against future stupidity.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Feb 18, 2019 - 06:35pm PT
First time to see this decade old (but timeless) thread. Jims post is definitely sobering, thanks for sharing that Jim. I hate to admit it but I am really good at driving tired. Good because I know when to stop, bad because I risked my life and the lives of others in the learning process. When I was 18 I was in driving across west Texas alone, first long road trip on my own. Nodded off and next thing I remember was the world tilted 35 degrees. I knew I was off the side but could not get back on the shoulder because those pesky road markers kept popping up in front of me. Finally got back on the road, and the vision of the world tilted is forever seared into my memory. One of the few things Arizona gets right is the "alarm clock" strip.

The adrenaline and psych of a good day of climbing can carry you for a few hours. Got me home from J Tree many times. But you have to know when to quit. I have pulled over 20 minutes from home for a power nap more than a few times.

Cold air and music helps, gotta have the road tunes at hand, favorite middle of the night album, Stones, Through The Past Darkly. I always carry those little 5 hour energy shots, a buck each at the dollar store, always have a few in the glove box. Seem to last longer than coffee and you can drink them on the fly. I remember being stuck without them once. All I had was some emergency packets of instant coffee in the car, middle of nowhere, so I scarfed the instant coffee and washed it down with water, pure nastiness, but it worked.

Picking up hitchhikers helps to, as long as they stay awake. Careful though, they will burn up all your firewood, hahaha, right Moose?
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Feb 19, 2019 - 11:19am PT
A full sleep cycle is about 90 minutes long but probably varies by the person. A nap of 15-20 minutes can help a lot. I think it makes sense to figure out your cycle and stage times. If I was woken up after 15 minutes I’d be really groggy (in the middle of a sleep stage). But I can set a timer for 20 minutes and often wake up right before the alarm goes off.

I’m usually well rested so when I’m nodding off at the wheel I’ll quickly stop and take a 20 minute nap and I’ll be good for another 3-4 hours.

If I got an early start (so didn’t sleep a full night) then did a long climb, then had to drive I’d likely set the alarm for a 90 minute nap when I started nodding. 20 wouldn’t be enough for me coming off a shortened nights sleep, so might as well got through a full cycle then I’d be good for 3-4 hours.

YMMV.
Don Paul

Social climber
Washington DC
Feb 19, 2019 - 11:44am PT
I'm not going to read this thread, having been a top finalist in the "what's the longest you've ever driven nonstop" one, lol.
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Feb 19, 2019 - 01:29pm PT
Thanks eKat, I will try that alpine start method next time I drive down to CA or AZ or? Now I just gotta make time..

Also, mentioned upthread:
I too have learned to love the power nap.

That has always worked for me and is on the safe side for sure, unless yayo is part of the equation and Vegas is on the right side of the "=" sign!! Kidding. Man, I worked too many(which isn't many!) accidents as a Vol FF and on the ambulance to get my EMT. The human body can be turned into a variety of gross lifeless objects from a drive gone awry. There is no excuse to drive past the point of flapping eyelids!!

Just don't do it!!
KJA

climber
Feb 19, 2019 - 05:54pm PT
Please, please, for your own sake and ours, pull over when you are too tired! If you are driving long distances back from somewhere relatively far away there is no way you (usually) can't afford a 5-10 minute nap. I know it's hard to make good decisions when you are that tired and you get into the "I'm just gonna get there" mindset but please don't do this. Getting into the habit of 5-10 min nap was a game changer for me...late night drives after mountain adventures became far more enjoyable. I keep a blanket/sleeping bag/camp pillow in my car just for these situations and it is the greatest thing ever. Fight to stay awake or sleep. Sleep is so much nicer, even only 5 minutes of it.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Feb 19, 2019 - 06:43pm PT
The Millis Method used these on the dashboard, use as needed.
zBrown

Ice climber
Feb 19, 2019 - 06:57pm PT



People claim to see an apparition of a clown on the side of the haunted Ortega Highway in San Juan Capistrano, California...


mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Feb 19, 2019 - 07:03pm PT
Chill out, child. You been eatin' too many shrooms?
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Feb 19, 2019 - 10:34pm PT
hey there say, ... i had posted this up-thread, but, ...

since this is a new bump... i will put it here, fresh:


folks do NOT realize that they cannot talk themselves out of falling asleep, or, they cannot do enough tricks to work... sure, some tricks yes, may stall a tired brain for a bit, and make one feel like one has successfully tackled the trip home, but sooner or later, one will press the issue to far---and, when the "real issue" is ready to kick you can't stop it, and that is due to this fact:

the brain shuts down... (which is obvious, as you don't even know what is going on then)
also, "micro sleep" hits drivers at such time (which is a fast shut-down that can occur, before the full shut-down)...

falling asleep can happen in pieces, so they say:
Your Brain Goes to Sleep (and Wakes Up) in Pieces
sciam.com — If you're too tired to think straight, it might be because parts of your brain are already asleep at the wheel. Scientists are challenging the belief that a specific region of the brain makes the call to hit the sack. Instead, our brains power down in stages, they say. If a certain group of cells in our brain gets fatigued, it imply shuts off.
from here:

EDIT-- THAT LINK IS GONE NOW... TRY THIS ONE, THOUGH, THE QUOTES WON'T MATCH:
https://www.tuck.com/microsleep/



-08-11-11

here's more serious info:

Sleep debt
Carolyn Fay 2007 Oct 18 Definitions
The brain keeps track of the accumulated hours of wakefulness. One hour of sleep is needed to "pay off" every two hours of wakefulness. When the sleep debt load is high enough, the brain will essentially force one into sleep, which is what happens when drowsy drivers fall asleep at the wheel. Although sleep debt must be paid back eventually, there is unfortunately no way to "stockpile" sleep in the event of future shortages. Dement notes, too, that there have been no studies on long term sleep debt, and so it is unknown whether the brain keeps track of sleep debt past two weeks or so. And while a large sleep debt can be a very dangerous thing, a small sleep debt is good, because it allows us to fall asleep quickly and stay asleep.

Test subjects with no sleep debt often have difficulty both falling asleep quickly and staying asleep the whole night through.
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Feb 19, 2019 - 10:39pm PT
hey there say, ... here is phil konstantine's story...

he WANTS folks to know:
i put my whole post, about HIS STORY, in quotes, here,
as, i already posted up, back-thread...


SAY---found a MUCH easier link for the same page:
http://americanindian.net/sleep.html


NOTE FROM PHIL:

Please feel free to add a link to this site. I am available for media interviews to discuss sleepy drivers or Robyn's crash. I have also made a series of TV Public Service Announcements (PSAs) for the CHP in which I talk about Robyn's crash. The PSAs are available for airplay. You can contact me by e-mail or at the address below if you would like a copy.

Phil Konstantin
P.O. Box 17515
San Diego, CA 92177-7515
(858) 505-5014

ON THE page that i put this link for, is this, as well:
plus a link to its own page:
http://americanindian.net/sleepstats.html

In my research into the cause of Robyn's crash, I am come across some interesting facts. I have links below to other internet sites which discuss the issue. I have also compiled some statistics from government sources. Here is one significant fact. More people die each year from crashes related to Drowsy, Sleepy or Fatigued Drivers than from all of the following causes COMBINED:
Plague; Anthrax; Leprosy; Diptheria; Whooping Cough; Tetanus; Smallpox; Chicken Pox; Measles; Rubella; Yellow Fever; Dengue; Mosquito-born Encephilitis; Infectious Mononucleosis; Malaria; Venereal Diseases; Vitamin A, B, C and D Difficiencies; Gout; Glaucoma; Cataracts; Hemorrhoids; Chronic Sinusitis; Pregnancies with Abortive Outcomes; Impetigo; Psoriasis; Spina Bifida; Cleft Palate and Cleft Lip; Bites from Snakes, Lizards and Spiders; Dog Bites; Hornet, Wasp and Bee Stings; Catacylsmic Earth Movements and Eruptions; and Fireworks.

APRIL 6 day of each year--DRIVER awareness day resolution for calif
http://americanindian.net/resolution.html

Phil

and, this:
There are several ironic circumstances in Robyn's death. She was a good driver. Robyn had passed a rest area approximately one mile before she crashed. I am a California Highway Patrol Officer. My present assignment is in the Public Affairs field. One of the subjects I cover frequently is the dangers of driving when you are fatigued, drowsy or sleepy
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Feb 19, 2019 - 11:13pm PT
hey there, say...



[Click to View YouTube Video]
Messages 1 - 115 of total 115 in this topic
Return to Forum List
 
Our Guidebooks
spacerCheck 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks

guidebook icon
Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Recent Route Beta