Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
| Messages 1 - 246 of total 246 in this topic |
Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
|
|
|
Topic Author's Original Post - Sep 14, 2009 - 12:12am PT
|
I purposefully didn't start a new thread on this on 9-11-09 in memory of those who lost their lives, and the families who lost their loved ones and all of us left hurting and surviving in the aftermath 8 years later. The pain will not go away or be healed until we know the truth.
There is no better way to honor those the world lost that tragic day, than to get to the truth and solve the complete story once and for all. It will be painful, but we must do it. Their blood cries from the ground for us the know the truth, and for justice to be done.
Everything corrupt, wrong, and evil that has happened since that infamous day points back to that very day. That day gave "them" everything they wanted.
No matter how you feel about Alex Jones or Charlie Sheen, their message is true . . .
9/11 Truth Cannot Be Stopped
James Corbett
The Corbett Report
Friday, September 11, 2009
http://www.prisonplanet.com/911-truth-cannot-be-stopped.html
Charlie Sheen's Video Message to President Obama
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyKR2-A0KPU&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eprisonplanet%2Ecom%2Ftwenty%2Dminutes%2Dwith%2Dthe%2Dpresident%2Ehtml&feature=player_embedded
Charlie Sheen 9-11 Truth: Twenty Minutes With The President
http://www.prisonplanet.com/twenty-minutes-with-the-president.html
|
|
micronut
Trad climber
fresno, ca
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2009 - 12:26am PT
|
corny.
|
|
Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2009 - 12:28am PT
|
Charlie Sheen!!!111666
BWHAHAHAHAHAHA! Mother of Christ! Get a GRIP!!!
|
|
Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2009 - 12:43am PT
|
9/11 - thermite - JFK - grassy knoll - RFK - Manchurian Candidate - MLK - Raul...
So many conspiracies...so little time.
Curt
|
|
monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2009 - 12:50am PT
|
Klimmer, what does the Bible Code have to say about 9/11?
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2009 - 01:05am PT
|
The facts stand.
One guy klimmer posts and all the sheep respond with the same
Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
|
|
Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2009 - 01:33am PT
|
Are trolls rated from T1 to T5, like aid climbs?
T1 - yawn.
T2 - the usual suspects bite.
T3 - minimum 100 posts, many abusive or scornful.
T4 - condition red hysteria amongst the skeptics.
T5 - even Russ, Ed and Werner bite.
|
|
mason805
Trad climber
East Bay, CA
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2009 - 01:37am PT
|
I'm wondering if it's a conspiracy that the advocate for the truth of 9/11 is Charlie Sheen of all people...
|
|
Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2009 - 03:09am PT
|
Did not check the links. No need. The data revealing the government involvement is verified in the related questions that could be answered but are instead fled by government.
Why would you not answer every question that can be asked, to thus advance your knowledge, and the knowledge of any listener, if not because the questions reveal your errors or maliciousness?
Government, and all groups of two or more humans, are not capable of keeping secrets. But they incessantly create them and attempt to keep them.
That recognized by even morons, why would people criticize the people who produce the suggestions that eventually reveal the secrets, if not because the critics are fools?
The number of SuperTopo chaps who criticize those who suggest concepts other than the inherently corrupted government line indicate how few climbers learn the lessons of the mountains.
The non-Park mountains reveal the National Park Service lies about mountain climbing, as lies. The concept extends to all natural world concepts that if merely observed, reveal all government lies.
Shake your head. The catastrophic, perfect collapse of the THREE buildings in New York was not logically the result of a gaggle of inherently poorly thinking, emotion-based religious fanatics even if there were zero process in place to prevent airplane hijackings.
Or something in that vicinity of concepts.
Still looking for an intelligent discussion on the internet. Can't find one.
Doug
|
|
HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2009 - 03:35am PT
|
Govt is too dumb to run an optional health care plan but orchestrate a secret conspiracy to kill it's own citizens and employees? No problemo!!
|
|
GDavis
Trad climber
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2009 - 03:37am PT
|
Huge conspiracy involving hundreds of thousands of government operatives and silence needed from untold family members, demolitionists, pilots and forged papers to boot... and solved by a college kid who looked at old documents that had a crosshair over manhatter. Score?
http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=911_morons
Klimmer, ask yourself honestly, whenever you see a grainy video that discusses building seven or a 'leaked' government document... why? Seems to me that the terrorist attacks on 9/11 were believable enough, why would the government RISK blowing up seven hours (and HOURS) after the fact? Oh, right, because its convenient. Now go die in a fire.
|
|
GDavis
Trad climber
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2009 - 03:38am PT
|
Also what HDDJ said. I mean, this was bush and cheney... masterminds, right.
|
|
MisterE
Trad climber
Canoga Bark! CA
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2009 - 03:40am PT
|
Excuse me
tap tap
Just wanted to let you know:
Your paranoid schizophrenic is showing.
|
|
Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 14, 2009 - 09:33am PT
|
You guys crack me up (lol).
Boy do the OCT deniers come running out big time and begin to start hurdling their ad hominem insults. Can't you guys come up with real counter points and evidence instead of firing out the same immature spitballs from the back of the classroom? Grow up.
Someone asked if Bible Code talked about 9-11? Don't you think the conspiracy and infamous event of 9-11-01 gave everything to the Neocons/NWO/Satanic-evil/powerful elite that they have been having wetdreams over and longing for, for so long? Of course the Bible is going to talk about this evil watershed event . . .
http://www.linkydinky.com/EnglishBibleCode.shtml
There is so much information about 9-11 in the above 9-11 Bible Code discovery, it is just amazing and incredible. God speaks. He knows all. All we have to do is have a clean heart, ask, and listen.
First, it is found in Revelations CH 9, with a 11 letter ELS code.
Second, it indicates and implicates the real country involved with the conspiracy, besides the USA, Saudia Arabia. Why did we fly the Bin Laden family out of the country when no one else could fly? Thank you Michael Moore for bringing that to light.
Third, it mentions Bin Laden. From Sibel Edmonds testimony, and other evidence it is now very clear Bin Laden was still a CIA asset upto and more than likely beyond 9-11-01. Why did we let him go when we had him? Because he has been a "good soldier" for AL-CIA-DUH.
Fourth, it indicates "missles" well, missed by one letter, close enough. Bingo. All 4 events on 9-11-01 have indications and evidence of missiles. If you don't know this then you haven't been paying attention and you don't know what people have discovered about all 4 crashes. Just one missile indicates an inside job, MIHOP.
Fifth, "Spies Knew," means inside job, MIHOP.
WAKE UP!
|
|
dirtbag
climber
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2009 - 09:57am PT
|
Oh lord...
Buchanababble and bullshit Bible codes in one thread.
|
|
TYeary
Social climber
Huaraz, Peru
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2009 - 10:41am PT
|
What Dirtbag said.
Can the end be far off?
Tony
|
|
Ray-J
Social climber
east L.A. vato...
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2009 - 10:58am PT
|
Hey Klimmer...
What's thatblack SUV doin parked across from you?
Hahaha!
Hey Klimmer...
What'r them two dude lookin like "agent smith" doin
walkin up yer freakin driveway man?
"Desert eagle test team"
Hey Klimmer: U shure U wanna know???
I say, bad scene, let it go...
|
|
Grant Meisenholder
Trad climber
CA
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2009 - 11:24am PT
|
Just trying to up the troll rating...
So how do you explain the not perfect collapse of the Pentagon (or the complete miss of the White House) and the United Flt 93 complete miss of anything? Oh, and did you see the footage of the 2 planes that crashed into the WTC towers? Interestingly, the collapses originated right at the weakened points of the buildings...
|
|
JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2009 - 11:40am PT
|
Charlie Sheen - A guy that has slept with over a hundred call girls. Must be an expert on 9/11.
Juan
|
|
Binks
Social climber
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2009 - 11:43am PT
|
"The pain will not go away or be healed until we know the truth"
Bullsh#t, really. Thousands of people die every year in accidents great and small. If I had to "know the truth" about every dubious accident or incident I'd never get anything done. No need to know anything about it. No need to feel bent out of shape either. Time to move on.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2009 - 11:48am PT
|
If klimmer's posts seem retarded to to the majority of the people posting to this thread then their responses are just as retarded as they provide absolutely nothing in return.
|
|
Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2009 - 11:49am PT
|
Klimmer-
If I get this right, you're telling us that God speaks in King James English?
What if I were reading the Bible in Hindi or Zulu with different letters on the same pages. What then?
Would I get a different message or no message?
|
|
justthemaid
climber
Los Angeles
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2009 - 11:57am PT
|
I gave up conspiracy-theories the day I saw the video of the the guys who successfully recreated the "magic bullet" shot.
Always astounds me that people actually believe a government that can't agree about ANYTHING or organize ANYTHING down to the most basic levels could actually orchestrate a conspiracy.
Think about it. What's the motivation of these mystery official that evidently are able to wield total power and are magically able to get 1000's of peons to comply with their plot and never make a peep?
Takes way to much energy to think up an evil plot, and you put any two government officials (even secret, evil, conspirators) in a room together they'll get bogged down by the details till everyone gives up and decides it's way easier to just go back to good old- fashioned bribes and sex-scandals.
|
|
fluffy
Trad climber
chainsaw city
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2009 - 11:57am PT
|
forget charlie sheen, he's a chump.
i haven't made up my mind on what happened on 911
there is a lot of missing information
i consider my curiosity and desire to learn what really happened on that day to be a pretty normal reaction from any sane, free-thinking individual.
in order to believe the 'official' story, one must accept that the laws of physics took a day off.
one must also accept that the normal safeguards we have developed to keep such a tragedy from occurring broke down in a systematic and spectacular failure. the mightiest nation in the world allowed such an attack from a few guys with boxcutters? where was the military response?
also, why the rush to remove evidence and finish the 'investigation' so quickly? ground zero should have been treated like a crime scene. maybe there's nothing more to it than the 'official story' but if so, why the veil of secrecy and refusal to consider all possibilities and evidence?
not everyone who wants the truth is some raving paranoid nut job. for a great many people, this just doesn't add up and that doesn't really work for us.
i'm not going out of my way to look for something to be paranoid about. its ok to look at such events with a healthy degree of skepticism and it is certainly not unpatriotic to do so.
don't we owe it to the victims? our children? our COUNTRY?
|
|
justthemaid
climber
Los Angeles
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2009 - 12:04pm PT
|
Charlie Sheen...
Hit on me at a stoplight one time.
|
|
ionlyski
Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2009 - 12:06pm PT
|
Klimmer,
Thanks for posting. However, they're all too far gone. Except for Werner. The power of propaganda.
Arne
|
|
dirtbag
climber
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2009 - 12:08pm PT
|
Yes, the sheeple have been lead astray.
Only enlightened ones like you, Charlie Sheen, Buchanabble, and Klimmer see the light. Oh, and the book of revelations.
|
|
dirtbag
climber
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2009 - 12:11pm PT
|
Of course, we all know who is the mastermind of this evil plot, and the evil plot to depopulate the planet via swine flu vaccinations:
I think S.P.E.C.T.R.E. has a hand in it too.
|
|
ionlyski
Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2009 - 12:14pm PT
|
Looks like Hillary is holding up her measurement of Dirtbag's unit.
|
|
dirtbag
climber
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2009 - 12:16pm PT
|
You laugh robustly at my Johnson, but I laugh robustly at you.
|
|
AM
climber
DLFA
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2009 - 12:19pm PT
|
Klimmer,
Thank you for attempting to spread the truth.
I'm shocked and disappointed that so much of our community here is so ignorant.
Go back to your day jobs sheep.
|
|
philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2009 - 12:29pm PT
|
The disappointment is that they are willingly ignorant.
When a great nation gets hijacked and led by lies and propaganda in a destructive direction that greatly benefits a very small number of people there is a massive need to know the truth. Opting to accept it as a fate accomplis and want to move on is a massive disservice to the victims, survivors and the nation as a whole. It sets the stage for a repeat.
Put it this way, if a building collapses because the contractor cheated safety requirements to increase profits and people died should we turn a blind eye to the truth and say what's done is done?
|
|
philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2009 - 12:42pm PT
|
By the way I find this Bible Code stuff a lot of nonsense. If only for the ridiculousness of language translation. You can't even accurately translate songs from one modern language to another without loss of meaning, context and nuance. Let alone translate ancient language into one that didn't exist when the book was written.
When you know what you want to find you will find it where you want to.
On the other other hand I did an extensive analysis of the all time classic children's book "Everyone Poops" And it said "Joe Wilson is a tea bagging terrorist".
So maybe there is some truth to this decoding myth after all.
|
|
OR
Trad climber
So.VT.
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2009 - 01:14pm PT
|
Good shit! Now back on your meds asap.
|
|
pedge
Trad climber
SW
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2009 - 01:16pm PT
|
If you believe our government is capable of organizing and maintaining the secrecy of such a conspiracy it would be illogical to resist the will of that government. That government is operating more effectively and cohesively than any private organization. Any resistance to goals of an organization of these genius masterminds and their completely loyal and disciplined agents will already have been anticipated and factored into their calculations. Not only would resistance be futile, it would be unpatriotic. Its our government, composed of what must clearly be our best and brightest, and although you might not like some of the short term sacrifices that have to be made, clearly you will eventually agree with the necessity of the objectives they help us achieve. So, stop wining so much about the slaughter – you should be so lucky as to be chosen for that honor, it’s the most you may ever be able to contribute to the greater good.
Obey your corporate masters: consume, copulate, conform.
|
|
philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2009 - 01:24pm PT
|
I would be vastly curious to do a survey about how many of those who can not believe the capability of the government to pull off a 911 conspiracy also don't believe we went to the moon.
|
|
Ray-J
Social climber
east L.A. vato...
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2009 - 01:33pm PT
|
Mighty hikers post is pretty damn funny. :)
|
|
Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 14, 2009 - 01:40pm PT
|
I'm not scared to tell the truth. I'm no physical threat. I'm a pacifist. I try now since I have returned to God to treat others as I would want to be treated, as Jesus said -- The Golden Rule.
But the truth does pierce dark souls. I've often said, if they kill me then you know it wasn't an accident. I don't believe in suicide. I'm careful as I can be even though I enjoy adventure sports. I love my wife, my kids, my family, and my friends, although my friends haven't seen much of me lately; I've been very busy.
Jesus said, the World hates me and my message, they will hate you also. Truth does that. It is a true Christain's cross to bear. But as I said it pierces the heart, and for some it enters in and changes them forever.
Bible Code is real, there is no doubt about it. Why only the Torah and the Old Testament in Hebrew? And why only the KJV in English? Perhaps it is a divine stamp of approval, not to say that other versions of the Bible and translations are not important and useful. They are. Many people cross-reference and compare for more understanding, and that is a good thing.
Is it possible with other religious texts? Like the Koran, or another? I don't know. Someone should look and see.
We are to live by the truth, and abide by the truth. Knowing the truth of 9-11 is important. The MIHOP crime of 9-11 has changed our world significantly, and not for the better. All of our freedoms are all at risk of being lost. I won't be silenced. I will fight as a pacifist. Some people obviously hate the truth. That is their own hang-up. The Apostle Paul, who was Saul, killed Christians before becoming one.
|
|
malabarista
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2009 - 01:57pm PT
|
klimmer, sounds like you need to seek professional help
|
|
philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2009 - 02:10pm PT
|
For what? Wanting the truth?
|
|
Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2009 - 02:17pm PT
|
Klimmer, if Doug Buchanan agreed with me about anything, I'd be very concerned.
|
|
Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2009 - 02:41pm PT
|
On the morning that every great empire collapses, it is replete with officials and their amusingly stupid supporters who cannot understand why the common people are tearing down the empire.
Why were the common people not satisfied with the government's highly noticeable refusals to answer the question (for the Waco, Oklahoma City and Trade Tower crime scenes): What is the official reason of record for the government's obviously hasty effort to bulldoze the evidence, so we can use that standard for all crime scenes?
To that and many other logical, seemingly easy to answer questions of government actions, the government-supporters respond with accusations that the questioners are nut cases and should be ridiculed.
For daring to ask the questions, ON RECORD, of the contradictions of National Park Service climbing regulations, I was arrested the moment I set foot in Mt. Rainier National Park, for "interfering with government operations", by walking into the entrance ranger station and politely asking to register to climb Mt. Rainier. I was jailed for a week, denied bail, denied a trial, and more, much to my ongoing laughter.
Those who were too dumb to even attempt to answer knowledge-inducing questions in school, must forever attack those who think enough to ask and answer questions, much to the amusement of thinking people.
Oh, as a previous distinguished military graduate, Regular Army Commission, Airborne, Ranger, Aviator, Infantry officer, Vietnam veteran, I can assure you of how easy it is to effect one of the many special military units, not on record, of ex-Hong Kong police recruits FLAWLESSLY LOYAL TO ORDERS, completely ignorant of the US Constitution, and barely understanding English, who, with their few commanders, will set explosive charges ANYWHERE, at Dick Cheney's orders, to "save America".
Violence is easy. Answering questions is difficult, as dumb people prove every day. Is that not so? (That is a question.)
Just more BuchananBabble, for our entertainment.
DougBuchanan.com
|
|
Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2009 - 02:53pm PT
|
Dingus.....
We got lots of options.
The easiest one is to vote for Libertarians, the only party that supports the Constitution, or vote for nobody and tell people why. Between a Democan and a Republicrat, the folks who brought us the bankrupted War And Police State, the intelligent vote is no vote.
The Libertarians do not know how to solve the problem, but they know how to not keep making it worse.
And then simply ask and answer the questions that the dumb people flee and ridicule. If you do that, your knowledge will advance into the increasingly effective processes to solve their problems, if you retain incentive to do so, much to your amusement.
And keep on having fun, unless having fun is BuchananBabble that is to be avoided of course.
Doug
|
|
Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 14, 2009 - 03:12pm PT
|
Doug,
I think US veterans often come to these truths because we see and actually know how whack the US government can really act and be. If you have never experienced the military in any form, then you really do not know. I'm glad I served. I grew up. I experienced so many things I would normally not experience. There are a lot of really good people in the service. I met good friends and we suffered together, but there are definately those who have a wicked screw loose and sometimes they are even in command. It is amazing what you can get troops to do. You can literally get troops to do anything given enough time, isolation, training; it is a method of mind-control, no doubt. The armed services have worked it out to a fine art. And soldiers are fodder for the elite.
I served in peace-time at Ft. Benning 11 Bravo Infantryman Basic training, Advanced AIT Expert Dragon Gunner, and then 2 years at Ft. Myer US Army Honor Guard, 3rd US Infantry, "The Old Guard." Witnessed my chain of command from the President on down many, many times. Washington DC is an incredible city. So much goes on there. That is when I really started to get into politics and political activism. At the same time, you can get any evil you want in the city if you look for it. The layout of the city was designed by Pierre Charles L'Enfante a Mason into the occult. The symbolism around the city is indepth. Isn't it amazing how it is the government seat of our great nation and it swims in the occult symbolism all around? How prophetic.
|
|
dirtbag
climber
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2009 - 03:42pm PT
|
It surely must've been the work of Kalifornia wolf-lovers, who had heard there must've been 5 or 10 Idahoans in the building worth targetting.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2009 - 04:02pm PT
|
dirtbag = shill
What retarded shill you always make yourself out to be.
|
|
dirtbag
climber
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2009 - 04:06pm PT
|
Coming from a guy who believes the moon landings were faked, your criticism of me is really more like an endorsement.
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2009 - 04:08pm PT
|
it's almost a moot point. The conspiracy to invade Iraq based on lies and cooked information is WAY easier to prove, cost a lot more innocent lives, and there's TONs of evidence regarding it.
Still, folks look the other way and no investigation is really pending. Humans are sheep and we are in our pen.
Peace
Karl
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2009 - 04:09pm PT
|
I never said they faked you stupid fool.
I always said they didn't go there.
|
|
dirtbag
climber
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2009 - 04:10pm PT
|
Oh ok then, that clarifies everything. LOL.
|
|
philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2009 - 04:19pm PT
|
Not voting for Bush would have.
|
|
John O'Connor
Boulder climber
Fort Fun
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2009 - 04:30pm PT
|
You are going to die, you have to pay your taxes and governments lie.
|
|
Dick_Lugar
Trad climber
Indiana (the other Mideast)
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2009 - 05:34pm PT
|
OK, I could possibly believe our government was "complicent", i.e., they had credible intelligence that a "9/11" was imminent and didn't try to stop it so they would carte blanche power in the aftermath...but to say they somehow planned it and orchestrated as perfectly as it played out...well then, you are fooking loon!
I would say that our gvmnt was complicent in that their lack of requiring stricter national airport security and commercial airline cockpit security, thanks to the airline industry lobbying groups was BLATANT NEGLIGENCE in basically inviting someone like Al Queda to hijack commercial planes...it doesn't take a rocket scientist to have pulled off what Al Queda did.
|
|
ionlyski
Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2009 - 05:52pm PT
|
Sounds like Dick is now ripe to seek the truth. A compliment really, your mind's opening up. Your ready for the next step.
Now go read "Crossing The Rubicon". Bachar read it, so should you.
Arne
|
|
pedge
Trad climber
SW
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2009 - 06:01pm PT
|
They were willing and able to orchestrate 9/11 to justify their war plans and whatnot, but they could not and/or would not fake the the finding of WMDs in Iraq to bolster the credibility and authority they were trying to build?
|
|
wally
Trad climber
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2009 - 06:19pm PT
|
Right on Roxjoc i'm with you.
The math does not add up. If you actually believe that a plane can take down that size of building engineered to take huge impact forces then honestly drop your bible immediatley go down to closest library each sunday and learn something about science and physics from a source that has nothing to do with religion.
Are americans really that stupid and ignorant to blindly beleive any reason given to them by fox news. I feel sorry for you people and it sickens me to think that is how america is evolving. Let's not think, there's always an easy answer isn't there?
BTW did anyone notice the perfect 45 degree angle on each main support on each of the three buidings located hundreds of feet down from where the planes hit? That's what took the cake for me.
Please yanky doddle dandies drop your bibles and go learn something please before it's too late!!!!!!!!
|
|
dirtbag
climber
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2009 - 06:21pm PT
|
Oh brother.
|
|
Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 14, 2009 - 06:28pm PT
|
One simple thing to keep in mind that many might just be missing and it is flying right over your head . . .
9-11 is in Bible Code. The Bible is the inspired word of God. God wants us to know his word, and asks us and implores us continiuosly through the word to study his word and show our selves approved . . . God wants us to know the truth. God wants us to know the truth about 9-11-01. That is why it is there to be witnessed, and we can all read it for ourselves. He doesn't want us blind sided by evil. He wants us ready and prepared. He always has. That is good enough for me.
He wants us to know so we are not fooled and taken by these evil sons of Lucifer (now you thought I was gonna say another word instead of Lucifer didn't you?), and we are not to be ever surprised again. I have grown spiritually, matured intellectually, and witnessed the pain and horror (as you have) and I am now so much more skeptical about the world of man as a result of 9-11. I think God wants us to know these things so we see the enemy for what he "they" (the Neocons/NWO/Evil Elite etc.) really are, and what evil they are really capable of. They are as their Father Lucifer has taught them and guides them. Nothing will surprise me anymore. I now know the evil intent of what we face, and it sent me running back to the loving arms of God.
He wants us to know the truth. Now, whether we can do anything about it is another thing. I'm sure he wants us to try. We should always try to stop evil. The good book says that believers are the Salt of the World. We help preserve it. Now many of you will try to throw that back in my face, and point out the evil that so called believers do. Then I say, they are not truly believers are they? You can not be children of God and do evil. The two don't ever mix. Jesus made that plain and clear over and over again.
Whether we succeed is another matter. But rest assured God will.
Romans 12:19 (KJV)
"Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord."
By the way, that verse above gives no room for pre-emptive war doctrine or war itself on this side of the New Testament. Bush, er I mean Shrub, is wrong. I don't care what he thought God told him. He is delussional. God doesn't contradict his word ever. Yes, everyone has the right to defend themselves but no more than that.
|
|
Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2009 - 06:29pm PT
|
Religious fanatics and conspiracy whack-jobs. This thread has it all.
|
|
stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2009 - 06:29pm PT
|
Wally,
I'm assuming the math doesn't add up because you're not a structural engineer.
The American Society of Structural Engineers thought that their math added up and that the planes could have brought those buildings down.
But nevermind them, that's only their job and area of expertise.
An ex-BYU physics professor who keeps changing his story and a hooker-frequenting actor are really much better sources.
|
|
Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2009 - 06:54pm PT
|
The American Society of Structural Engineers thought that their math added up and that the planes could have brought those buildings down.
I'm no structural engineer, and definitely don't claim to know who, if anybody, conspired with whom in the attack on the Towers. But what I do know is that nobody, structural engineer or anybody else, designs buildings to withstand the heat generated by 150,000 pounds of burning kerosene pouring down the stairwells.
|
|
Dick_Lugar
Trad climber
Indiana (the other Mideast)
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2009 - 07:15pm PT
|
^^^^^^
LOL!
|
|
Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2009 - 07:27pm PT
|
Dingus....
Your questions are poorly considered. Wisely learn to ask more useful questions, and answer them before you ask the other guy who might provide the answers that illuminate your scant thinking.
Your qustions.....
So all I have to do is? My answer: Yes, if you do "is", you will be fine.
Vote Libertarian eh? My answer: Yes, if you wish, as an alternative to the Bush/Obama crowd.
And all our problems are solved??? My answer: No. Problems are solved by asking and answering questions to identify and resolve contradictions, not by voting for politicians who function on power and thus cause the problems.
I somehow sense a glitch. For example, let's assume I voted a straight libertatian ticket in 2000 - so what? What difference did it make? My answer: You will have usefully demonstrated to your own mind that you think more than the unquestioning DemocanRepublicrats. That alone is a good start for what you can then learn by thinking more.
Your comments...
If they can take down the Twin Towers without leaving a shred of credible evidence behind then they can take down the party of nothing, as well. My response: Who is "they"? You see as little of the obvious evidence as the rest of the unquestioning government chaps. "Taking down" (damaging) an organized party may be easy, but the process illuminates to more thinking people the necessity of abandoning "they" as rulers. Unthinking people never recognize the inherent consequences of their actions. "A party of nothing" indicates your inability to use words that hold their meanings, explaining how you confuse your mind.
I'm not convinced my voting libertarian would have saved the Towers... Mister Buchanan. My response: I am certain that it would not have. For what reason did you introduce such an unrelated comment?
My further response: When you encounter expressed comments, consider thinking enough to ask useful questions, or present related, useful concepts.
Or so I might imagine.
Doug
|
|
Ray-J
Social climber
east L.A. vato...
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2009 - 07:32pm PT
|
Ho god its pitiful how far off klimmer and them is;
Everyone knows it was a UFO strike, we were invaded
you tards! Boy its sure sad how blind people are.
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2009 - 07:46pm PT
|
Pedantic, masturbatory pratter.
There are no two entities within the federal government that could rise above the level of their incompetence to be able to orchestrate in secret at the level of resources required for such an event. And the NYC attack alone would have required the syncronized coordination of private, local, state, and federal resources on a frankly unimaginable scale. It didn't happen, because any such attempt at domestic secrecy on that scale would have collapsed faster than the towers.
|
|
dirtbag
climber
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2009 - 07:50pm PT
|
"Your questions are poorly considered. Wisely learn to ask more useful questions, and answer them before you ask the other guy who might provide the answers that illuminate your scant thinking."
That's Buchanababble for "Dingus, yer an idiot, unlike me."
|
|
Jingy
Social climber
Flatland, Ca
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2009 - 08:18pm PT
|
the only roadblock to progress is questions....
question everything!
|
|
Sak
Mountain climber
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2009 - 08:25pm PT
|
Actually Ghost, the tower WAS designed to withstand a Boeing 707 direct hit. Condoleeza Rice was lying when she said she had no idea planes would be used as weapons. A common scenario well documented. Check out "Loose Change" where they interview designers of the trade center.
|
|
monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2009 - 08:39pm PT
|
Well Sak, the towers did withstand the impact of the planes. They did not collapse when they were hit, and stood for about an hour each afterwords.
Now designers in the 60's did not have the computational power to model what an intense office fire can do to a damaged steel structure. One of the designers has said that the ensuing fire ravaging a damaged building is what caused the collapse.
Did ya think Loose Change would mention this?
|
|
S.Powers
Boulder climber
Joshua Tree, CA
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2009 - 08:41pm PT
|
|
|
Mustang
climber
From the wild, not the ranch
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2009 - 09:20pm PT
|
I still have to ask why there wasn't a forensic investigation into traces of explosives on the structural steel columns of the towers?
This would be a fundamental process of any murder investigation usually undertaken by the F.B.I.
9/11 was not entirely a matter of terrorism, but also mass murder, so where's the forensic investigation into such?
QUESTION AUTHORITY!!
It's a only small matter of keeping a democracy alive and well!!
We the sheeple of the United States.
BAAAAAAAAA, BAAAAAAAAA
|
|
S.Powers
Boulder climber
Joshua Tree, CA
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2009 - 09:37pm PT
|
|
|
Jay Wood
Trad climber
Fairfax, CA
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2009 - 09:57pm PT
|
Klimmer-
I've appreciated your links and info on 9-11 questions.
But bible code? Seriously?
God wants us to understand 9-11???
'yer losin' me there dude.
|
|
monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2009 - 10:45pm PT
|
Building 7 was just burned, it had no impact.
Holy Cr*p, Rockjox, you must be kidding. Debris from a collapsing 100 story building smashed into it.
Steel frame buildings don't burn, they don't collapse in one piece.
Really Rockjox? What about all the stuff in a modern office building?
Building 7 did not collapse in one piece. The penthouse collapsed into the building at least 5 seconds before the final collapse. Funny how all the truther videos don't show this section of the collapse.
It was build over a power station, which means it had long spans down low.
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2009 - 10:50pm PT
|
I'd just like to repeat this point, since none of ya'll seem to believe any conspiracy regarding the government is possible
"The conspiracy to invade Iraq based on lies and cooked information is WAY easier to prove, cost a lot more innocent lives, and there's TONs of evidence regarding it.
Still, folks look the other way and no investigation is really pending. Humans are sheep and we are in our pen. "
Let's investigate the low hanging fruit first. It was treason and there are high level officials and documents that could verify it. If we won't look at Iraq, we'll never look at 9-11.
and don't be fooled, the real 9-11 questions regard the flow of money and connections, not towers falling down. That could just be disinformation to make ya'll look foolish
Peace
Karl
|
|
monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2009 - 10:57pm PT
|
Haha, there are pics showing huge gashes in the side facing the tower. One of the corners is missing for about 8 stories down low.
Didya expect every building hit by debris to collapse?
Architecture and location are very important.
The towers and wtc7 all had the same tube in tube design without concrete in the core above the first few stories. The replacing structures will all have concrete cores the entire height.
|
|
dirtbag
climber
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2009 - 11:41pm PT
|
It's funny how the Bible coders and other 9-11 bogeymen chasers never cite this code, also found in Revelations:
|
|
Port
Trad climber
San Diego
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2009 - 12:08am PT
|
The psychology of these theories is understood well. Essentially, humans will see patterns where they want to, even though they don't exist. Self critical thought seems so rare.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2009 - 12:12am PT
|
"Self critical thought seems so rare."
Like yours and dirtbags.
You guys bring nothing to the table except bullsh'it.
You're worse ......
|
|
Port
Trad climber
San Diego
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2009 - 12:20am PT
|
I maybe wrong Warner, its a possibility. Will you admit its a possibility that God doesn't exist or that 911 conspiracies are bunk? I don't trust anyone who claims to know truth.
|
|
Mike Bolte
Trad climber
Planet Earth
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2009 - 12:38am PT
|
Rok-there are volumes written analyzing the WTC building failures. I guess all the engineers and scientists who studied this and wrote those articles may be dumb, or brainwashed, or part of the conspiracy of misdirection and lies. But, maybe not.
edit: why am I reading this thread?
|
|
John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2009 - 12:42am PT
|
Werner wrote,
"I never said they faked. (slightly edited to keep from fanning the flames of war )
I always said they didn't go there." ( there being the moon )
Werner, I remember you talking previously about us not actually going to the moon, something about the moon not being the moon, or some such thought.
Would you clarify this? Where did we go? What do you call the moon?
|
|
Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2009 - 12:49am PT
|
In answer to my question, Klimmer has told us that he doesn't know why, but God has chosen Hebrew and King James English to reveal Himself and His Bible codes. The next obvious question then is why are so many missionaries putting so much effort into translating the Bible into all the languages of the world? Why don't they just make their converts learn English first? And of course we should be forcing all English speaking Christians to be learning Hebrew too, right?
Then another question arises. When we get to Heaven, does this mean we will all be speaking King James English and Hebrew? And the people in hell will get to speak in their own original languages, maybe as a consolation for being there in the first place?
And final question. If English is the language of truth and revelation and English and Hebrew speakers are the chosen people, then why get upset with earthly events at all? Just by being born into an English speaking country, we're already half way there. Why sweat the small stuff like government conspiracies?
|
|
Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 15, 2009 - 12:52am PT
|
Karl B.,
I've always said we should do both. Whether you approach it from a physics point of view and it being impossible to have happened as the OCT says it happened, or you follow the crime of motive, means, and opportunity, it all points to MIHOP.
We need to do both. Pick the easy low fruit and harvest the physically impossible to have happened by jets alone. It all points to 9-11-01 being an inside job.
The book, Crossing the Rubicon so many years ago sent me on the path to 9-11 truth. Still a great read. We really do have so much evidence it is overwhelming.
To everyone,
To me God through his word confirms it. The passage I shared is not the only Bible Code regarding 9-11. Not even close. There are a considerable amount in God's word.
It would be nice to bring it all together in one post and see what all has been found and what it all says.
Edit:
Jan,
You are misrepresenting what I said. Who knows if Bible Code exists in other translations. It has to be looked into and someone has to do that work. So far, as far as I know it hasn't been found in another. Have all translations been tested and accounted for? I do not know. That is an honest answer.
I speculated that maybe that God is putting his stamp of approval on the original Hebrew and the famous King James translation. I do not know for sure if that is it only and there is not any more.
I believe the Book of Enoch to be the word of God even though it is not considered canon. I specualte that it also has Bible Code throughout. My hypothesis is yes, it probably does. It would be good to do this test for all the apocrypha books and see. I suspect that some of them would pass the test.
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2009 - 12:59am PT
|
Karl,
Nothing about the march to Baghdad was a secret, it was a simple political brow-beating of cowardly democrats supported by a couple of intel fabrications and manipulations that only had to last long enough to scare opposition politicians. There is no valid parallel whatsoever in that to the level of multi-agency orchestration and choreography that would be required to execute on a domestic version of 9/11.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2009 - 01:00am PT
|
Port -- "I don't trust anyone who claims to know truth."
That means you claim to know the truth.
Why should we trust you.
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2009 - 01:07am PT
|
I posted this reference in the other thread... what is says in plain language is that the original "Bible Code" analysis published in Statistical Science had an analysis that was flawed and basically only uncovered what was put into it... this is relatively subtle, so the original study was not necessarily fraudulent, but the improved analysis did not detect anything beyond random coincidence.
So there is no message encoded in the Bible that hasn't been put there by the people trying to decode it...
...there is no statistical evidence that the "messages" are not any better than you'd expect from random gathering of words. The "interpretation" of these messages are like reading your horoscope in the daily newspaper, they are so general as to be applicable to a very large range of possible "events" as the reader so chooses to read them. There is no predictability in the horoscope, there is none in the Bible code.
You are only getting out what you put in...
This completes the T5 status of this thread...
http://projecteuclid.org/DPubS?service=UI&version=1.0&verb=Display&handle=euclid.ss/1009212243
Solving the Bible Code Puzzle
Brendan McKay, Dror Bar-Natan, Maya Bar-Hillel, and Gil Kalai
Source: Statist. Sci. Volume 14, Number 2 (1999), 150-173.
Abstract
A paper of Witztum, Rips and Rosenberg in this journal in 1994 made the extraordinary claim that the Hebrew text of the Book of Genesis encodes events which did not occur until millennia after the text was written. In reply, we argue that Witztum, Rips and Rosenberg’s case is fatally defective, indeed that their result merely reflects on the choices made in designing their experiment and collecting the data for it. We present extensive evidence in support of that conclusion. We also report on many new experiments of our own, all of which failed to detect the alleged phenomenon.
Keywords: Equidistant letter sequences; ELS; Bible code; Torah code; data tuning; data selection
|
|
Port
Trad climber
San Diego
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2009 - 01:15am PT
|
Thanks for the link Ed. Occam's razor seems applicable here.
"When competing hypotheses are equal in other respects, the principle recommends selection of the hypothesis that introduces the fewest assumptions and postulates the fewest entities while still sufficiently answering the question"
How many entities are involved in the cover up?
|
|
HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2009 - 01:23am PT
|
Posting in a "9/11 truth can't be stopped and yet here is a thread about how it was stopped" thread.
|
|
mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2009 - 01:23am PT
|
I'd think that by definition, in this case, the above quote SUPPORTS some non-nineteen-Saudi-box-cutter-banditos hypothesis.
I'm no expert in any field dealing with the day of 911, but I'd be willing to debate scenarios in accordance with the quote limitations. Just for fun and all...
|
|
Mike Bolte
Trad climber
Planet Earth
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2009 - 01:33am PT
|
Rok - maybe it is just what a bunch of structural engineers think, but I bet your car started and ran the last time you sat in it and turned the key and I bet the computer you are typing your ST response on works pretty well and I bet the last time you drove over a big bridge it didn't fall down. Design and analysis today is very sophisticated (that was not so true in 1965 when the WTC buildings were designed) and you are surrounded by examples of the "thoughts" of structural engineers and mechanical engineers and computer engineers etc. that turn into a pretty amazing and working reality.
|
|
John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2009 - 01:33am PT
|
Come on Werner. How about answering my questions from post 101. Or will curiosity kill the moose? haha..
|
|
Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2009 - 01:41am PT
|
Charlie Sheen and now Richard Gere???
Sheesh! Price of foil is going up!
|
|
Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2009 - 01:45am PT
|
Good tip ed:
I'm stocking up for the next wide fest....
|
|
k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2009 - 01:53am PT
|
#1 defense for not looking at the facts surrounding the events of 9/11:
The government couldn't carry it out.
Why look at the facts when you already know the answer?
BTW, Charlie Sheen isn't the only one on this. Here's a couple of lists, folks you can't call whackos:
Architects and Engineers for Truth:
http://www.ae911truth.org/
Pentagon officials, CIA officials, NSA officials, etc.
Read this, then call them Whackos.
http://patriotsquestion911.com/Counterterrorism_Veterans.pdf
Here's just one guy who speaks out:
Raymond McGovern, 27-year veteran of the CIA, who chaired
National Intelligence Estimates during the 1970’s. ...
During his 27-year CIA career, McGovern personally delivered
intelligence briefings to Presidents Ronald Reagan and George
H.W. Bush, their Vice Presidents, Secretaries of State, the Joint
Chiefs of Staff, and many other senior government officials.
Yeah, this guy is a real whacko.
Or, read the eyewitness account from Lt. Col. Karen
Kwiatkowski, PhD of the NSA on page three.
Go ahead, educate yourself, if you dare.
PS. Funny how it's the same fold who are so vehemently opposed to looking at the 9/11 facts that about a year ago were saying that global warming was a hoax...
|
|
monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2009 - 02:03am PT
|
The steel only portion of the Madrid building collapsed down to the concrete technical floor due to fire only. This building had a concrete core which saved it from further collapse.
Why is it so hard to think that a steel only building can't collapse due to fire?
Rokjox, you are a complete idiot to think that a skyscraper could fall over. Show me a skyscraper that has fallen over!
Is this how you think it should have happened?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMtb5Vndo2g
Amazing you are so ignorant Rokjox after eight years. WTC 7 was the identical tube in tube design as the towers further complicated by being built over an electrical substation and northside columns on cantilevers.
|
|
S.Powers
Boulder climber
Joshua Tree, CA
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2009 - 02:04am PT
|
|
|
Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2009 - 02:06am PT
|
Similarly, before Hiroshima there was never an instance of a single bomb killing 100,000 people and leveling an entire city. I think I just found another conspiracy--we've all been had for over 60 years!!!! Dammit.
Curt
|
|
Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 15, 2009 - 02:34am PT
|
Who among you is going to call all of these Patriots who are government, military, scientists, professors, engineers, architects, 9-11 survivors, family members etc. who question the OCT of 9-11 nuts?
Who among you is going to be the first one to throw that stone?
http://patriotsquestion911.com/
I gladly associate with them and question the OCT of 9-11.
By the way, we also have "the Big Guy upstairs" on our side. I'm very confident with God's support.
Ed,
Hasn't it been said that it can be proven by physics that Bees cannot fly? Yet Bees fly. Now I know, the physics of that orginal statement was not really saying that, it has been misused, but you get the point.
Professor Rips et al., has good arguements against their rebuttal to their original work. They, the scientists doing the rebuttal to the original work and report, made assumptions that were not valid and Rabi et al., and claimed they misrespresented the study on purpose and lied. Does that ever happen in science? It sure does. The greatest sin a scientist can commit is to falsify their results. Scientists are human and fallible.
"Contrary to their public image, scientists are normal, flawed human beings."13 They are as capable of prejudice, covetousness, pride, deceitfulness, etc., as anyone.” David Weatherall, "Conduct Unbecoming," American Scientist (vol. 93, January-February 2005), p. 73.
Bible Code is well beyond where it was in 90s when it was first discovered and publically revealed. You might say that the cat is out of the bag now. They are now finding full sentences, not just related clusters of meaningful words (that is beyond statistical probability, or chance even then). Many people are involved in searching Bible Code now all over the world and finding a great deal.
A bee flys, and God placed within his word a Code we can now decipher and determine with his help. He said to seal the words until the end, a period of time when people would go to and fro and knowledge would be increased. We are living in that time.
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2009 - 02:45am PT
|
Klimmer, don't know where you got that from... about the bees... it is an active area of research, here is a report in the last issue of The Physical Review Letters
APS » Journals » Physical Review Letters » Covers » Vol. 103, Iss. 11
Vorticity field near wing reversal of a moving wing (white: wing; blue: counter clockwise fluid rotation; red: clockwise fluid rotation). Optimized flapping motion can be more efficient than classical airfoil wing motion.
Phys. Rev. Lett. 103, 118102 (2009) [4 pages]
Flapping Wing Flight Can Save Aerodynamic Power Compared to Steady Flight
Umberto Pesavento and Z. Jane Wang
Department of Theoretical and Applied Mechanics, Cornell University, Ithaca, New York 14853, USA
Received 6 April 2009; published 11 September 2009
Flapping flight is more maneuverable than steady flight. It is debated whether this advantage is necessarily accompanied by a trade-off in the flight efficiency. Here we ask if any flapping motion exists that is aerodynamically more efficient than the optimal steady motion. We solve the Navier-Stokes equation governing the fluid dynamics around a 2D flapping wing, and determine the minimal aerodynamic power needed to support a specified weight. While most flapping wing motions are more costly than the optimal steady wing motion, we find that optimized flapping wing motions can save up to 27% of the aerodynamic power required by the optimal steady flight. We explain the cause of this energetic advantage.
©2009 The American Physical Society
And as an added benefit, I believe I've climbed with Jane Wang in the 'Gunks a while back with a mutual physicist friend...
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2009 - 02:53am PT
|
"There is no valid parallel whatsoever in that to the level of multi-agency orchestration and choreography that would be required to execute on a domestic version of 9/11."
The parallel is that a traitorous government conspiracy was concocted that resulted in tons of death. It is instructive to know that even a now-obvious deadly conspiracy brings no investigation or prosecution in this country. Go for that instead of 9-11.
But you bring too many assumptions to the table. The Gov could merely have discovered 9-11 was being planned (or suggested it via a mole like ex CIA bin Laden who has conveniently never been captured) and then kept it from being twarted by having those war game exercises put false blips on radar screens and diverting fighters away from NY and DC. Only a couple people would need to know.
Peace
karl
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2009 - 02:55am PT
|
Klimmer, you didn't read the rebuttal article, it presents a series of "tests." These tests are designed to be reproducible, any scientist can reproduce them... and the tests show that the original article does not demonstrate the claims that it makes.
This is a mathematical argument, not a personal argument.
No one is accusing anyone of lying in that article, they are saying, "if what you say is true, then these other tests must also be true" and then, performing the tests, find that the technique fails.
Therefore, there is not mathematical or statistical support for the initial article's claims.
You can choose to believe the claims, but you cannot justify that belief on a scientific argument. Such an argument does not exist.
I do not question your belief, but I will question your use of erroneous scientific results to support your belief.
Why do you persist in marshaling such "facts" when, in the end, you will only accept a single answer. Isn't your faith enough for you?
|
|
Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 15, 2009 - 02:59am PT
|
It has only been said, and it was a misrepresentation of original work way back when . . .
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=0&oq=bees+can%27t&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GPEA_enUS301US303&q=bees+can%27t+fly
http://www.paghat.com/beeflight.html
'The "science has proved that bees can't fly" urban myth originated in a 1934 book by entomologist Antoine Magnan, who discussed a mathematical equation by Andre Sainte-Lague, an engineer. The equation proved that the maximum lift for an aircraft's wings could not be achieved at equivalent speeds of a bee. I.e., an airplane the size of a bee, moving as slowly as a bee, could not fly. Although this did not mean a bee can't fly (which after all does not have stationary wings like the posited teency aircraft), nevertheless the idea that Magnan's book said bees oughtn't be able to fly began to spread.'
Yes, I know a bee can fly and the physics actually do prove it. It is just a saying, is all I'm saying. Perhaps not the best arguement or saying to use or continue to propigate.
It is just a saying . . .
Edit:
I will have to find Professor Rips rebuttal to the defense of his original work where he goes after those attempting to refute it. Where did that link go??? I'll get back to you.
|
|
Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2009 - 03:01am PT
|
Klimmer-
I agree with Ed.
"Isn't your faith enough for you"?
And didn't Jesus say, "My Kingdom is Not of This World?
Why then are you trying to drag religion into 9/11?
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2009 - 03:09am PT
|
Klimmer, the point is that a scientific argument is based on much more than "just a saying." These are precise arguments with logical structure which can be tested and falsified. The original authors made a precise statistical statement regarding the occurrence of non-random word group coincidences in the Bible (actually the Tora).
This statement can be examined and tested, it can be falsified.
It turns out to be false. The word groups are consistent with random coincidence. Isn't it important to know that this "code" is not a code at all, and that you should stop trying to extract meaning from something that is meaningless?
|
|
Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2009 - 03:24am PT
|
Every large military has black ops teams. They are inherent to military thinking (or military non-thinking).
Every military officer is taught the obvious, that the best military maintains ongoing real war operations, because the difference between training and war is metaphorically night and day.
The US is currently the world's most advanced and active military. It spends the most. It maintains the most real war activities. It constantly tests the most effective new killing toys.
How did you think that happened?
To suggest that US military black ops teams have not been at the start and center of every US war, US foreign assassination, US interest terrorist act, and more, is to amuse military officers.
The US trained, equipped and financed Osama bin Laden and his personnel for years, during the Soviet Afghan war, naturally kept secret and routinely denied because it was a proxy war with the Soviets.
The US military personnel with close ties to Osama were black ops personnel.
Black ops extend way, way beyond your first guess, with many long range connections that are well protected for the next war. Those whom you are told are enemies, are not enemies.
To suggest that the US military, with its extensive black ops connections, intended to catch Osama, and could not do so, is to leave US military officers rolling on the floor, clutching their aching sides, kicking and pounding, gasping for breath, tears of howling laughter streaming from their eyes.
To suggest that the World Trade Tower bombing, hastily ascribed to Osama for the news fodder, was not prior known (initiated and used) by US military black ops personnel, would leave the above-mentioned officers recovering only to give themselves medals for keeping such a person as clueless as the superlatively clueless elected government dolts and certain SuperTopo government worshippers.
I got tired of moving around last year's moose antlers in the old shed, so today I put them up on the shed roof edge, where the squirrels will gnaw on them for a calcium supplement. Only a year on the list of things to do. Cool.
Carry on....
DougBuchanan.com
|
|
S.Powers
Boulder climber
Joshua Tree, CA
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2009 - 03:28am PT
|
^ wait, you didn't bash the NPS, you had better edit your last post Dougie!
Carry on....
stevenpowers.com
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2009 - 03:55am PT
|
Pedantic, masturbatory pratter.
Over the course of my second year in the military I was privy to the highest level of intelligence from the CIA and all the defense Intel agencies. Yes, they do occasionally manage to pull off small, well-bounded, and discrete 'black ops', but "small" and "well-bounded" are the keys in that statement. Most, however, are simply called-off as unworkable at one stage of their lifecycle or another and most that do actually launch are a clusterf*#k or disaster of one proportion of another.
Again, you assign way more credibility and competence than exists in any reality outside of your mind.
|
|
Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 15, 2009 - 04:03am PT
|
I'm not trying to drag religion into 9-11, just that I do believe in Bible Code and that Bible Code does talk about 9-11. Someone asked and I took the bait.
My faith does not hindge on 9-11 truth or Bible Code. I believed and had faith long before either happened. Bible code to me does show God's handiwork and stamp of approval in his word. He does provide evidence to "doubting Thomases." It does strenghten our faith. It does mine. You probably can not relate one bit, you don't believe I am assuming?
To say that related word clusters on all kinds of diverse topics and then when these messages are proven true, is just coincidence and chance, is really disegenious. It is way, way beyond chance and that is what Professor Rips et al., their original study proved statistically. Another study comes along and says no it is meaningless and just pure chance. I'm not convinced. There is more phenomenon to test and study that is even more convincing. They would have to do statistical study after statistical since incredibly revealing Bible Codes keep getting discovered over time, again and again and again. At this point the evidence is overwhelming.
Now in Bible Code they are finding full sentence messages that are very meaningful and true. The stats for this are off the charts. It isn't an accident. It isn't a random chance. It proves design.
I'm saying if Bible Code is real, I believe it is. And it tells us things about our time and gives us insight and understanding into things and historical events of our day, I believe it does, then we can learn a great deal about many things that we never knew before. Even solving incredibly evil crimes against humanity, such as 9-11.
You obviously dissagree with all of this, no doubt.
Ed,
Do you think it is possible to do science and to be a good scientist and abide by the rules of the scientific method and make discoveries, and contribute to our knowledge base, and still believe in God and have faith in something that cannot be seen or proven? Do you think people, scientists, are capable of doing both human endeavors and perhaps have suceess in both?
To repeat, is it possible to do science and contribute, and in another unrelated aspect of one's life to have faith in God, to have faith in something that is not possible to prove?
|
|
Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2009 - 04:14am PT
|
I laughed robustly.
"I was privy to the highest level of intelligence from the CIA and all..."
This suggests that one person, a climber colleague of ours, was knowledgeable of all the US military black ops, and if possible, then other such "privy" bureaucrats in the system would be so knowledgeable, which defies the concept and practice of black ops.
Yet again we see that a person privy to the highest level of government intelligence openly displays the void of intelligence that defines government.
Healyje, I trust you are still being paid well to deny any effective black ops, on cue.
Every day fewer people are believing the lies. The government told too many too often.
Not even your government colleagues are dumb enough to believe your government-canned denial of actual black ops.
But be careful, that might just be pedantic, masturbatory pratter, and a bit of snickering.
DougBuchanan.com
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2009 - 04:15am PT
|
"...the entire building fell in a total single unit, in a minimum free fall time,"
This is factually incorrect - the wtc7 collapse was both asynchronous and asymmetric.
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2009 - 04:17am PT
|
"This suggests that one person, a climber colleague of ours, was knowledgeable of all the US military black ops..."
That year I prepared the daily intel staff briefs for a group of senior Generals and Admirals who were and I saw everything they saw, and before they saw it.
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2009 - 04:18am PT
|
"That is not what the videos show happening..."
That is in fact exactly what the roof-level video recorded.
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2009 - 04:56am PT
|
The 'free fall' issue is largely irrelevant. The video in your first link clearly shows an asynchronous and asymmetic collapse. And wtc7 was a structural monstrosity such that you would have had to have done extensive modeling to even begin to understand how to bring it down with explosives. Then, where it really gets inane is in the planting of the requisite explosives in any of the three buildings without anyone knowing about it. Demo crews all but gut buildings to set and wire their charges. Setting and wiring the charges without janitorial and IT staffs of multiple entitities was and is wholly impossible.
|
|
BrentA
Gym climber
Roca Rojo
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2009 - 05:23am PT
|
I don't find Doug pedantic.
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2009 - 05:37am PT
|
Well, there you go, I find his I'm-so-clever butchering of the written word self-illuminating, dreary, and pedantic. The net effect on a page is tedious and boring. What he believes is a precise and exacting use of language is actually just the opposite - it's a sad obfusticaton of intent and message - sort of like playing Sherlock Holmes to an inner Dr. Watson who, like most everyone else, really isn't listening.
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2009 - 11:10am PT
|
To say that related word clusters on all kinds of diverse topics and then when these messages are proven true, is just coincidence and chance, is really disegenious.
It is not disingenuous, I think you have read neither the first paper, nor the response and have no idea of the statements made in the papers, nor the statistical arguments that are the basis of the initial claim or the refuting claims. This does not seem to be an issue with you at all, you know these things to be true.
You obviously dissagree with all of this, no doubt.
I disagree with it all, yes, but the conspiracy theory mentality usually cooks up an explanation which is consistent with all the observations. Given two different explanations of the same set of observations, usually I'll be drawn to the simplest one.
...is it possible to do science and contribute, and in another unrelated aspect of one's life to have faith in God, to have faith in something that is not possible to prove?
I believe the answer to this is yes, as I have colleagues who have faith in the existence of a God. Yet they do not believe in that the Bible should be taken literally, specifically, they would disagree in interpreting the apocrypha written there as having to do with what is happening now.
However, I am not one who believes in a divine presence or the supernatural.
Is it possible to have faith in God and not related to organized religious thought (including the Bible which was created by people)?
|
|
Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 15, 2009 - 12:19pm PT
|
Ed,
Thanks for responding. Honest answers.
"To say that related word clusters on all kinds of diverse topics and then when these messages are proven true, is just coincidence and chance, is really disegenious."
Your response -- It is not disingenuous, I think you have read neither the first paper, nor the response and have no idea of the statements made in the papers, nor the statistical arguments that are the basis of the initial claim or the refuting claims. This does not seem to be an issue with you at all, you know these things to be true.
My response -- I have read the original study done by Prof. Rapi et al. as it was published in a Math Journal. It is included as an appendix in the Michael Drosnin book "Bible Code." Yes, it is a difficult read, only a statitician would find it enjoyable. I have not read through the rebuttal completely. bits and parts. We have the classic scientific debate. One side said "yes," is is beyond chance and it is meaningful, the other says "no" it is not beyond statistical chance and it is meaningless. Yet, I read these codes that are discovered and I am blown away. I cannot explain it away. I think most people can't. I see the codes, I read the codes, I know it is beyond chance, and they have significant meaning in our day and time, over and over again. Somethings science can not explain or understand at this time. Maybe one day we will. Our understanding is so limited and superficial. What we know from scientific discoveries and truths is more than likely the mere polish on a bowling ball of all the knowledge there probably is to know.
"You obviously dissagree with all of this, no doubt."
Your response -- I disagree with it all, yes, but the conspiracy theory mentality usually cooks up an explanation which is consistent with all the observations. Given two different explanations of the same set of observations, usually I'll be drawn to the simplest one.
My response -- Yes Occum's Razor. Is it always the simplist explaination? No.
"...is it possible to do science and contribute, and in another unrelated aspect of one's life to have faith in God, to have faith in something that is not possible to prove?"
Your response -- I believe the answer to this is yes, as I have colleagues who have faith in the existence of a God. Yet they do not believe in that the Bible should be taken literally, specifically, they would disagree in interpreting the apocrypha written there as having to do with what is happening now.
However, I am not one who believes in a divine presence or the supernatural.
My response -- Thanks for your honest answer. We can only agree to disagree here.
Your Q -- Is it possible to have faith in God and not related to organized religious thought (including the Bible which was created by people)?
My response -- Yes. However, I would disagree about the statement "the Bible which was created by people." Yes, written by people and copied by people, but inspired by God. Long history of God using people and working through people, in fact the Bible is mostly about just this. Seems to me God likes to do it this way. I would surmise he likes to have a relationship with his creation. Makes sense to me.
Native people before our modern era obviously believed in a Diety or Dieties, "The Great Spirit" or what have you. God has a plan for them also. That is a more advanced theologic discussion for a really long rainy day . . .
Edit:
For all interested, I will not post to the stupid thread titled . . .
"9/11 Conspiracy - Simple Minded Folk with little Science Ed"
That is a pretty sick disgusting spit-ball from the back of the class from the "dim-wit" section and I'm not biting.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2009 - 12:23pm PT
|
Dingus ...... what do I think?
"Siddhartha listened. He was now listening intently, completely absorbed, quite empty, taking in everything."
If this approach is used more one will find the answers to the mystery of 911. One has to wade through tons of disinformation to "see" what happens/happened.
Just watching "Loose Change", reading Popular Mechanics or the the official version and all the chaotic chatter here, will just agitate one down a blind road that the perpetrators want you to go.
Thus they can hide in the hundred spokes of the moving wheel.
The truth lays in the hub ........
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2009 - 12:30pm PT
|
The conspiracy theorists are the thousand spinning spokes obfusticating the reality of a simple, but unpleasant hub.
|
|
Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2009 - 12:39pm PT
|
In answer to Ed's question, "Is it possible to have faith in God and not related to organized religious thought (including the Bible which was created by people)?"
I am reminded of the story of Rabbi Herbert Goldstein, who sent Einstein a telegram saying, "Do you believe in God? Stop. Answer paid. 50 words".
Einstein replied.
"The most beautiful emotion we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion that stands at the cradle of all true art and science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead, a snuffed out candle. To sense that behind anything that can be experienced there is something that our minds cannot grasp, whose beauty and sublimity reaches us only indirectly; that is religiousness. In this sense and in this sense only, I am a deeply religious man".
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2009 - 12:43pm PT
|
All the talk about the buidlings is barking up the wrong tree. Why won't the government explain why the Pakistani ISI chief wired $100,000 to Mohammed Atta before 911 and then traveled to washington to meet top US administration officials on 9-11 itself!
Why did Bush tell an blatant falsehood about seeing the first plane hit the tower on 9-11 (he said this right on 9-11 too) That was never televised.
Why were war games that seems designed to take air protection from those cities scheduled for 9-11? How often has that EVER Happened and how did Al Queda find out (or was it just lucky
Why was Bin Laden's family flown out of the country with no interviews while regular air traffic was shut down, all when much more ordinary muslims were being rounded up and detained?
Why are these questions never asked much less answered by the 9-11 commision.
Peace
Karl
|
|
Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 15, 2009 - 12:45pm PT
|
DMT,
I would disagree. One day, no matter what, we will know. It is gonna time a lot of time, but one day we will all know. And there will be "Hell to pay" literally, for those who perpetrated this crime against humanity (as well as many of the other crimes they perpetrated).
That is Karma.
|
|
Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 15, 2009 - 12:48pm PT
|
Jan,
Good post. Touche.
|
|
mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2009 - 02:31pm PT
|
"Ever done any carpentry, electrical, drywall, or painting work? There is no way to progressively tear up floor after floor of office space for the requisite access to structural members and then repair the damage such that workers who are on those floors day in and day out wouldn't know what's going on. Similarly, you could never wire the explosives without the telecom and IT staffs instantly knowing about it. It's beyond ridiculous, it's ludicrous"--healyje
Maybe to you, sir...
In the few weeks prior to 911 a security company (owned by Jeb Bush) was contracted to "re-wire" the buildings for new high-speed capacity, as vacancy was around half, and new insurance was taken out around then.
Hardly ludicrous, in fact, probable (by cause).
|
|
Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2009 - 02:50pm PT
|
The plain simple observable truth conclusively proved that Earth was flat, and humans could not fly through the air. The conspiracy wackos simply could not accept the plain simple truth advanced by the simpletons with all the institutional titles and credentials of their time.
A primary division of the humans is that of the thinkers who ask questions, and the simple dumb folk who ridicule the thinkers and their questions, instead of even attempting to answer the questions.
High quality entertainment, by design.
Healyje stated: "That year I prepared the daily intel staff briefs for a group of senior Generals and Admirals who were and I saw everything they saw, and before they saw it."
Healyje therein illuminates government "intel", by the glaring failure of the results, and the inability of government chaps to answer reasonable questions.
Concurrently, my good friend Healyje still is clueless of "black ops". They are based on a common military system... "I don't need to know. I don't want to know. Make no record. Just do it. And for sure as hell do not tell anyone in "intelligence" or the world will learn about it."
The concept of an organization is to pool the knowledge of many minds, to discover the best process for something. The concept of multiple "security clearance" levels, and secrecy, in an organization not only defeats the concept of forming the organization, but proves the abject stupidity (neural damage of power) of the organization members.
Further, if there is a "group" of senior Generals and Admirals, what were the other groups being told? Dumb people often reveal their ignorance in their boasts.
Healyje, I would one-up your childish "I saw everything..." boast, but that is still a touchy subject with the entire US military intelligence and security "organization".
Oh, and it is all controlled by the National Park Service, including the flat earth thing. They hold the enforceable power to "ban" Americans from National Parks, you know. That being a separate government, which one controls the other?
Enjoy the comedy.
DougBuchanan.com
|
|
Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 15, 2009 - 02:53pm PT
|
DMT,
Maybe I was being too subtle.
I was referring to the end of this time, on the last judgement in the "Big Sky" in front of God Almighty himself.
YES, WE WILL ALL KNOW THEN, if we don't ever come to knowing now.
But, I think we do know now, some of us do, and many are waking up.
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2009 - 05:57pm PT
|
"Concurrently, my good friend Healyje still is clueless of "black ops". They are based on a common military system... "I don't need to know. I don't want to know. Make no record. Just do it. And for sure as hell do not tell anyone in "intelligence" or the world will learn about it."
Pretty ignorant statement from start to finish. You have a very confused view of how the military / intel world operates. The military senior staff do not care for triggers being pulled without their explicit authorization. When a 'black op' happens, the senior staff is always aware of it, that's because today's geopolitical response timeline is now down to hours and minutes and the threat of distant reprecussions from failed ops is all too real. The only black ops they wouldn't aware of are extra-govermental - i.e. illegal - ops such as Watergate.
How many successful large-scale 'black ops' are you thinking succeed for every bungled disaster such as Bay of Pigs, the Iranian hostage rescue, or Iran-Contra? The success rate is appallingly low and as I said the best thing you can say about most ops is they get strangled in the crib.
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2009 - 07:05pm PT
|
The Central Intelligence Agency withheld information about a secret counterterrorism program from Congress for eight years on direct orders from former Vice President Dick Cheney, the agency’s director, Leon E. Panetta, has told the Senate and House intelligence committees, two people with direct knowledge of the matter said Saturday.
The report that Mr. Cheney was behind the decision to conceal the still-unidentified program from Congress deepened the mystery surrounding it, suggesting that the Bush administration had put a high priority on the program and its secrecy.
Mr. Panetta, who ended the program when he first learned of its existence from subordinates on June 23, briefed the two intelligence committees about it in separate closed sessions the next day.
Efforts to reach Mr. Cheney through relatives and associates were unsuccessful.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31867022/ns/politics-the_new_york_times
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2009 - 07:34pm PT
|
Congress is not the senior military staff.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2009 - 07:51pm PT
|
And you are sitting in Oregon so you wouldn't know sh'it either.
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2009 - 08:13pm PT
|
"Congress is not the senior military staff."
True but still an illegal conspiracy.
and what I was actually searching for was the fact that cheney went into an intel agency and basically set up a separate division at his bidding. Couldn't find it fast and don't care cause 9-11 isn't going anywhere as long as nobody cares about our Iraq BS.
PEace
Karl
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2009 - 09:10pm PT
|
You were looking for Doug Feith and the [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_of_Special_Plans" target="new"]Office of Special Plans[/url] within the DoD which gen'ed / manipulated intel for Rumsfeld and Cheney when career CIA analysts wouldn't. Again, none of these political shenanigans is comparable to orchestrating, coordinating, and executing a domestic covert multi-agency op that involves activities more direct than talking, emailing, hitting the return key, and drinking martinis.
Werner, I may be in Oregon, but I both know exactly how long it takes to rip out and seamlessly repair dry wall and what it would take to hang a building's worth of detonator wires. I also know the [in]competence levels of our government and the limits on its capabilities. What is suggested here vastly exceeds all of them.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2009 - 09:26pm PT
|
You keep talking about ripping out drywall and planting explosives.
You're light years away from how it was done. You keep focusing on this cave man technique. And you know all about black ops?
Everything you've mentioned is cave man stuff.
All of ya are not even in the ball park that's why you keep thinking impossible.
|
|
Gene
climber
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2009 - 09:36pm PT
|
Pony up, Werner. What's the real scoop?
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2009 - 09:46pm PT
|
Werner, let me hazard a new guess.
They beamed 27 'black op' ninja teams dressed in metamaterial cloaks into the buildings seconds before impact where they severed supporting beams with their light sabres with no one the wiser and then beamed out again just in time. I've been trying to do my part and keep that secret up til now, but damn, you're on to me.
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2009 - 09:56pm PT
|
"Werner, I may be in Oregon, but I both know exactly how long it takes to rip out and seamlessly repair dry wall and what it would take to hang a building's worth of detonator wires. I also know the [in]competence levels of our government and the limits on its capabilities. What is suggested here vastly exceeds all of them."
Which is making the brash assumption that the claims of the 9-11 truthers are barking up the right tree. If a gov black opps operation had any sense, they'd cover their tracks with disinformation.
ie, if you were to run CIA drugs out of Laos to finance black ops, you'd want to make up some lie about how it was genetically engineered drugs designed to create robotic thinking in the target destination so anyone on your tail looked silly.
But yeah, can you acknowledge the CIA ran opium and heroin during the Vietnam era? How many Americans know it? I met veterans who saw it first hand but who knows right?
PEace
Karl
|
|
Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2009 - 09:59pm PT
|
Wasn't Nikola Tesla involved somehow?
|
|
monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2009 - 10:05pm PT
|
Your getting close there MH. Werner thinks energy weapons may be involved in the other thread.
|
|
Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
|
|
|
Sep 16, 2009 - 02:28am PT
|
Healyje, you classically reveal government ignorance.
With the Iraq and Afghan war boondoggles having produced countless accusations by high and mid level government officials openly stating, with their names, that they were not told about critical information from other agencies, that resulted in numerous major damages, including the current war in Iraq itself based on weapons of mass production, and laws being passed attempting to force agencies to start sharing information that is still not shared because of normal personal and agency rivalry inherent to the design of humans, your suggestions that there are no black or any color ops going on that are not known about by a single concluding government decision maker, reveals classic government ignorance, nay, unmitigated stupidity since it is so obvious.
With verifiably credible government personnel, some in high positions, periodically "blowing the whistle" on inherently ongoing illegal agency activities, including "black ops", some of far-reaching damages, of inherently corrupted government, your ludicrous suggestion that no such "ops" are operating, are ludicrous, much to the amusement of SuperTopo colleagues.
With high government officials routinely using the metaphor of the right hand not knowing what the left hand is doing in their own government agencies, your suggestions are left in one of those hands.
What time it is? I'm outta here.
Wait. Because of my army "credentials", during the Vietnam adventure I was encouraged by an Air America pilot to get one of the lucrative flying jobs that expressly included saying nothing about the air transport of burlap bundles from Cambodian highland opium regions, to what might be known heroin production areas, under CIA contract. To suggest that is not happening in Afghanistan and Pakistan would be to parrot the Healyje intelligence officer reports of the Vietnam and Contra adventures. "We are the government. We can do no wrong. Only wackos suggest otherwise."
DougBuchanan.com
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Sep 16, 2009 - 04:31am PT
|
You guys kill me. You don't seem to be able to separate political, legal, and technical shenanigans from covert military ops, and particularly domestic military action. There are plenty of covert political agendas and intel activities; some over the past eight years have even risen to the level of treason. The rendition and contracted interrogation programs were examples of well-bounded, easy-to-manage operations as were the surveillance programs conducted with the airlines and telecom companies. Similarly on the military side, it's small, well-bounded ops like last weeks Somalia raid to kill Saleh Ali Saleh Nabhan that succeed - big ops get messy fast and things start to exponentially f*#k up the more players there are involved. There is a degree of acceptable slop and play when things get messy in third world countries - there is no such leeway in a domestic op.
As for the "secret counterterrorism program" Panetta killed, it's not hard to tell it from what little has been made public that it was a complete, out-of-control, macho clusterf*#k from the get go and likely only survived as long as it did because it was Cheney's pet project. And Oregon is the home of Evergreen Aviation, the CIA's favorite airline, so yes, between my time here and in Vietnam I'm well aware of the CIA drug ops in both SE Asia and Central America (as well as Evergreen's role in extraordinary rendition since 9/11). Those operations are closer to the mark of direct action, but both drug operations were complete circuses and neither were much of a secret. The senior staff was well aware of those bumbling ops and even provided occasional logistical support when it was unavoidable. Hell, for that matter, one pound sheets of Paki hash were being consumed onboard the frigging USPACOM flagship.
I can assure you nothing of any significance happening on the ground in Pakistan or Afganistan (or any of the AOR countries) by any U.S. unit, agency, or contractor is escaping Mullen, Petraeus, McChrystal, or the rest of the CENTCOM's senior staff - McChrystal in particular is a freak for details and currently is the goto guy for 'black ops'.
|
|
dirtbag
climber
|
|
|
Sep 16, 2009 - 10:09am PT
|
Healyje, how dare you question the infinite wisdom of Buchanababble when he attempts to show us sheeple the light?
|
|
Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
|
|
|
Sep 16, 2009 - 11:16am PT
|
Doug, I am glad you have made a triumphant return! As a fellow Alaskan Alpine Club member, I salute you and I laugh robustly!
"Humans, the greatest show on earth"
|
|
pedge
Trad climber
SW
|
|
|
Sep 16, 2009 - 11:20am PT
|
Did I miss it? I just wanted to know what the explanation is for why the people who brought us 911 declined to bring us some WMD in Iraq. I'm sure there is an explanation, I just haven't heard it. If 911 was orchestrated to legitimize their war plans, why didn't they fake finding some WMD in Iraq? It would have been easier than the 911 deal and the failure to find any WMD did their cause a lot of harm.
|
|
fluffy
Trad climber
chainsaw city
|
|
|
Sep 16, 2009 - 12:27pm PT
|
"the failure to find any WMD did their cause a lot of harm."
not really
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Sep 16, 2009 - 12:34pm PT
|
Sorta disgraceful and weird that almost nobody who was seriously a part of 9-11 or the anthrax plot were ever caught, procecuted or punished, despite trillion dollar efforts that managed to kill hundreds of thousands and created millions of homeless refugees! Who ARE the real criminals, the ones who killed 4 thousand innocents or hundreds of thousands?
Bin Laden and Zawahiri (if they really had anything to do with it, there is little proof and Bin Laden's "confession" video doesn't even look like him) are free. The Taliban leader is free. The anthrax case was never solved despite knowing where the bugs came from (the US!) and the Saudi's, who supplied money and almost all the hijackers, never even felt a sweat!
Who knows if Shiek Mohammed was the mastermind? It's many years later and practically no evidence is forthcoming?
How did we find so little out about 9-11 and catch almost nobody?
I don't know what happened but I do know that the mainstream doesn't know either.
peace
Karl
|
|
Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
|
|
|
Sep 16, 2009 - 12:38pm PT
|
The "only" harm not finding WMD did was cause the GOP to lose
both the Senate and House in the 2006 midterms, and also the
Presidency in 2008, along with even more losses in Congress.
|
|
cleo
Social climber
Berkeley, CA
|
|
|
Sep 16, 2009 - 01:41pm PT
|
Jay Wood asked me for references in engineering and science journals. I did ONE search in ONE database using the term "World Trade Center". It returned 511. Here are references from page 1, relevant to 9/11.
Happy?
(sorry, I don't have time to read them all and look for specific criticisms, but a quick glance at the abstracts indicates that these scientists indeed think that these tower were brought down by a couple of fuel-laden jets resulting in high fire temperatures melting the steel. No explosives needed!)
Dominant factor in the collapse of WTC-1
Miamis, Konstantinos (School of Civil Engineering, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette, IN 47907); Irfanoglu, Ayhan; Sozen, Mete A. Source: Journal of Performance of Constructed Facilities, v 23, n 4, p 203-208, 2009
Database: Compendex
Compilation and indexing terms, Copyright 2009 Elsevier Inc.
Advances in research on fire engineering of steel structures
Wang, Yong (Department of Civil Engineering, University of Manchester, United Kingdom) Source: Proceedings of the Institution of Civil Engineers: Civil Engineering, v 162, n 3, p 129-135, August 2009
Database: Compendex
Compilation and indexing terms, Copyright 2009 Elsevier Inc.
Thermal and structural response of two-storey two-bay composite steel frames under furnace loading
Dong, Y.L. (School of Civil Engineering, Harbin Institute of Technology, 202 Haihe Road, Nangang District, Harbin, 150090, China); Zhu, E.C.; Prasad, K. Source: Fire Safety Journal, v 44, n 4, p 439-450, May 2009
Database: Compendex
Compilation and indexing terms, Copyright 2009 Elsevier Inc.
A two-step approach to progressive collapse analysis of building structures under blast loading
Xu, Jun-Xiang (Department of Civil Engineering, Shanghai Jiaotong University, Shanghai 200240, China); Liu, Xi-La Source: Journal of Shanghai Jiaotong University (Science), v 14 E, n 4, p 393-397, August 2009
Database: Compendex
Compilation and indexing terms, Copyright 2009 Elsevier Inc.
Modeling pre-evacuation delay by occupants in World Trade Center Towers 1 and 2 on September 11, 2001
Kuligowski, Erica D. (National Institute of Standards and Technology, 100 Bureau Drive, Mailstop 8664, Gaithersburg, MD 20899-8664, United States); Mileti, Dennis S. Source: Fire Safety Journal, v 44, n 4, p 487-496, May 2009
Database: Compendex
Compilation and indexing terms, Copyright 2009 Elsevier Inc.
A high-quality high-fidelity visualization of the September 11 attack on the world trade center
Rosen, Paul (Computer Science Department, Purdue University, 305 North University Street, West Lafayette, IN 47907-2107); Popescu, Voicu; Hoffmann, Christoph; Irfanoglu, Ayhan Source: IEEE Transactions on Visualization and Computer Graphics, v 14, n 4, p 937-947, July-August 2008
Database: Compendex
Compilation and indexing terms, Copyright 2009 Elsevier Inc.
World Trade Center building disaster: Stimulus for innovations
Kodur, V.K.R. (Department of Civil and Environmental Engineering, Michigan State University, United States) Source: Indian Concrete Journal, v 82, n 1, p 23-31, January 2008
Database: Compendex
Compilation and indexing terms, Copyright 2009 Elsevier Inc.
Approximating the evacuation of the World Trade Center north tower using computer simulation
Galea, E.R. (Fire Safety Engineering Group, The University of Greenwich, London SE10 9LS, United Kingdom); Sharp, G.; Lawrence, P.J.; Holden, R. Source: Journal of Fire Protection Engineering, v 18, n 2, p 85-115, May 2008
Database: Compendex
Compilation and indexing terms, Copyright 2009 Elsevier Inc.
Biomonitoring of perfluorochemicals in plasma of New York state personnel responding to the world trade center disaster
Tao, Lin (Wadsworth Center, New York State Department of Health, State University of New York at Albany, Empire State Plaza, Albany, NY 12201-0509); Kannan, Kurunthachalam; Aldous, Kenneth M.; Mauer, Matthew P.; Eadon, George A. Source: Environmental Science and Technology, v 42, n 9, p 3472-3478, May 1, 2008
Database: Compendex
Compilation and indexing terms, Copyright 2009 Elsevier Inc.
Structural design for fire in tall buildings
Gurley, Colin (TAFENSW, Sydney Institute of Technology, Ultimo, 2007, Australia) Source: Practice Periodical on Structural Design and Construction, v 13, n 2, p 93-97, 2008
Database: Compendex
Compilation and indexing terms, Copyright 2009 Elsevier Inc.
Multi-laboratory testing of a screening method for world trade center (WTC) collapse dust
Rosati, Jacky A. (U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, Office of Research and Development (ORD), Research Triangle Park, NC 27711, United States); Bern, Amy M.; Willis, Robert D.; Blanchard, Fredrick T.; Conner, Teri L.; Kahn, Henry D.; Friedman, David Source: Science of the Total Environment, v 390, n 2-3, p 514-519, Febrary 15, 2008
Database: Compendex
Compilation and indexing terms, Copyright 2009 Elsevier Inc.
Recent advances in fire-structure analysis
Duthinh, Dat (National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST), Materials and Construction Research Division, Bldg. and Fire Research Laboratory, Gaithersburg, MD 20899-8611, United States); McGrattan, Kevin; Khaskia, Abed Source: Fire Safety Journal, v 43, n 2, p 161-167, February 2008
Database: Compendex
Compilation and indexing terms, Copyright 2009 Elsevier Inc.
Progressive collapse of the World Trade Center: Simple analysis
Seffen, K.A. (Structures Group, Dept. of Engineering, Univ. of Cambridge, Trumpington St., Cambridge CB2 1PZ, United Kingdom) Source: Journal of Engineering Mechanics, v 134, n 2, p 125-132, February 2008
Database: Compendex
Compilation and indexing terms, Copyright 2009 Elsevier Inc.
Engineering perspective of the collapse of WTC-I
Irfanoglu, Ayhan (Department of Civil Engineering, School of Civil Engineering, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette, IN 47907); Hoffmann, Christoph M. Source: Journal of Performance of Constructed Facilities, v 22, n 1, p 62-67, 2008
Database: Compendex
Compilation and indexing terms, Copyright 2009 Elsevier Inc.
Where to from here?
Lowe, P.G. (University of Sydney) Source: Magazine of Concrete Research, v 60, n 8, p 569-574, October 2008, Morley Symposium on Concrete Plasticity - Part I
Database: Compendex
Compilation and indexing terms, Copyright 2009 Elsevier Inc.
Discussion of "Mechanics of progressive collapse: Learning from world trade center and building demolitions" by Zdenek P. Bazant and Mathieu Verdure
Szuladzinski, Gregory Source: Journal of Engineering Mechanics, v 134, n 10, p 913-915, 2008
Database: Compendex
Compilation and indexing terms, Copyright 2009 Elsevier Inc.
Fire and concrete structures
Bilow, David N. (Engineered Structures, Portland Cement Association, 5420 Old Orchard Road, Skokie, IL 60077); Kamara, Mahmoud E. Source: Proceedings of the 2008 Structures Congress - Structures Congress 2008: Crossing the Borders, v 314, 2008, Proceedings of the 2008 Structures Congress - Structures Congress 2008: Crossing the Borders
Database: Compendex
Compilation and indexing terms, Copyright 2009 Elsevier Inc.
Thermal and structural response of a two-story, two bay composite steel frame under fire loading
Dong, Yuli (Harbin Institute of Technology, China); Prasad, Kuldeep Source: Proceedings of the Combustion Institute, v 32 II, p 2543-2550, 2009, Proceedings of the Combustion Institute - 32nd International Symposium on Combustion
Language: English
Database: Compendex
Compilation and indexing terms, Copyright 2009 Elsevier Inc.
|
|
cleo
Social climber
Berkeley, CA
|
|
|
Sep 16, 2009 - 01:41pm PT
|
also note: many of these engineers are not in the US! They therefore couldn't be gagged by the US gov't, now could they?
|
|
dirtbag
climber
|
|
|
Sep 16, 2009 - 01:42pm PT
|
Doesn't matter, they're all part of the plot.
|
|
cleo
Social climber
Berkeley, CA
|
|
|
Sep 16, 2009 - 01:42pm PT
|
^^^^^^^^^^^
Ha Ha, obviously!
|
|
monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
|
|
|
Sep 16, 2009 - 02:34pm PT
|
Haha Rox, why the heck would the conspirators want to bring down the towers in a controlled way?
You would want to do as much damage to the entire area if you wanted to make the biggest justification for war.
Or are you still stuck on that "if a skyscraper does not fall over its a controlled demo" idea?
Those published articles are out there for review by other scientists and engineers. That's the way the system works.
Queue the Nazi and sheep pics.
|
|
pedge
Trad climber
SW
|
|
|
Sep 16, 2009 - 02:53pm PT
|
I knew there was an explanation for not faking finding any WMD, but still, I don’t understand what you have said. Bio-toxins might be genetically traceable, but is the same true for nerve gas? Maybe poison gasses are not that effective in battle, but I got the impression that we were looking for such things and calling them WMD, and basing that in part, on Sadam’s previous use of them against eh Kurds.
Even if the failure to find WMD didn’t cause the Bush administration as much harm as some of us might think, wouldn’t it have helped their cause to find some, given the UN justifications, and the argument that could have been made that if there was some there, it could have been distributed to terrorists anywhere? Wouldn’t you just expect them to have planted some trace nerve gas or something along the way? You can’t really believe it would have been more difficult to do that than to plot 911 and keep all the conspirators totally silent?
Your attempts to cover any problems with the conspiracy by resorting to the sorts of arguments raised don’t make much sense.
|
|
stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
|
|
|
Sep 16, 2009 - 03:11pm PT
|
Actually the gases in WWI were unfortunately a pretty effective weapon. They caused alot of panic, disrupting tactics, and they caused alot of injuries, requiring significant resources to treat them.
However, these effects were magnified by the trench nature the WW1 conflict. There wouldn't necessarily be such issues today.
|
|
Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 16, 2009 - 03:16pm PT
|
I’m ashamed that National Geographic has stooped so low to be involved in a “hit-piece” on the truth of 9-11-01. I haven’t seen the program they did, I would like to, but reading the criticisms that those who know the truth and are pursuing the truth have to say regarding the NGS program -- it is USDA grade bovine dung. Shameful. I like National Geographic and have a natural affinity to them since my background is Physical Geography/Earth Science, and Physics. They have always done great programming, but now they have taken up the cause to white wash the truth regarding 9-11-01. Come on NGS. Get real.
Sep 11, 2009
National Geographic Channel on 9/11: Manipulation vs. Objectivity — Dwain Deets and Gregg Roberts
http://www.ae911truth.org/info/92
One of the really great points of the article above is the discussion on conspiracies and peoples’ knee-jerk reaction to dismiss them. Conspiracies happen, they are real, and they can even involve and implicate the US Government.
Case in point. How many of you are aware that we solved MLK Jr. assassination? We solved it and James Earl Ray wasn’t the assassin. The full truth of the matter is now known, and I’m blown away. I did not know this and I’m pretty sure most of us do not know this. M$M did not cover this in any major way. One of the most tragic events in our US history solved, and the M$M is quiet about it. How come America? Conspiracies happen and yes sometimes our US Government pulls them off. You cannot use the argument that our government is not capable or would not do such a thing. You got to get your head out of the sand, and stop drinking the cool-aid, and wake up. Perhaps if they can kill Dr. MLK Jr., they can kill others just as well, JFK for instance. You think they can also kill US citizens in a 9-11 false flag op? No doubt. We are fodder to them sometimes. Wow, they can even keep it secret for an incredibly long time. It took 30 years or so to solve the assassination of MLK and to identify the guilty in a court of law.
“Had any of the show’s producers bothered to research Dr. William Pepper’s exoneration of Martin Luther King’s alleged assassin, James Earl Ray, in a civil trial in 1999, they would have learned that there was in fact a bona fide conspiracy to murder King that was conducted by agencies within the US government and the Memphis police department. US Army snipers followed orders, taking up a position as backup shooters, without knowing why they were so ordered. They were never ordered to shoot because the primary shooter did his job. After realizing what they had been made part of, several of them left the US and went into hiding, two of them returning reluctantly and courageously to testify at the trial. The jury rendered a rapid verdict in favor of the King family’ endorsing the evidence and conclusions that Pepper presented. Real conspirators were exposed and identified, proving that these types of activities do in fact occur, but are kept almost completely out of public awareness with the help of media collaborators like the NGC producers. This victory for truth in the King case creates the disturbing dissonance that comes before comfortable lies give way to uncomfortable but ultimately empowering truths. It would have established a critical precedent, of which there are others, for people to understand the horrible reality of 9/11. Maria Gilardin of TUC Radio has an excellent interview with William Pepper telling the truth behind the King assassination.”
Actual Audio highlights from the trial in 1999:
http://www.tucradio.org/2008_03_19MLKtrial.mp3
http://www.tucradio.org/2008_03_26MLKtrial.mp3
Dr. William Pepper’s books on the solving of MLK Jr’s assassination, the actual trial, and the fact that the jury found the defendant guilty, and the implication of all involved including organized crime, our government: the CIA and 8 members of a US Special Forces unit.
Why doesn’t everyone in the World know this?
An Act of State: The Execution of Martin Luther King, New and Updated Edition (Paperback) by William F. Pepper (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/Act-State-Execution-Martin-Luther/dp/1859846955/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1253127719&sr=1-1
The 13th Juror: The Official Transcript of the Martin Luther King Assassination Conspiracy Trial (Paperback) by MLK The Truth LLC (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/13th-Juror-Transcript-Assassination-Conspiracy/dp/1442112158/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1253127719&sr=1-2
I have these books on my Amazon wish list now. I will read them completely. We have to know the truth no matter the pain involved.
|
|
dirtbag
climber
|
|
|
Sep 16, 2009 - 03:37pm PT
|
Here's the culprit:
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Sep 16, 2009 - 03:39pm PT
|
9-11 could have been allowed with only a few people's knowledge and not even participation. This whole stink about buildings is just a distraction (although I did hear a speech from an architect who claimed he designed part of the building and that it was prewired for demolition from day one since buildings could very profitably be turned over in those days)
That's a different group of people than would fake WMDs in Iraq. They didn't need to find em, they were arrogant enough to say FU to the world with impunity. They knew we were in too deep to say "Sorry" and leave. Plus Bush claimed to have found them at one point and some folks still believe it!
Again, they faked the WMD evidence in advance to get in Iraq. (Niger uranium) Nobody got punished for that treason so why expect any justice?
Peace
Karl
|
|
monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
|
|
|
Sep 16, 2009 - 03:43pm PT
|
Oh Rox, many financial institutions were damaged and destroyed. The idea the conspirators needed to limit the destruction is absurd.
Karl, your statement that the wtc buidlings were prewired for destruction so you can turn them over makes you look like a loonball. Did you really suck that in?
BTW, you guys prattle on about 'first time in history' crap.
How about the first time in history a skyscraper, let alone two have been brought down by controlled demo from the top down? What if something went wrong? Yea, I know, the ninjas would have run in and cleaned things up.
The truth is, there was no need for the buildings to collapse. Four simultaneous suicide hijackings, 500 dead and 3 smoking icons would have been enough to get the job done. No risk manager would ever multiply the risk by adding a ground operation.
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Sep 16, 2009 - 03:51pm PT
|
"...that it was prewired for demolition from day one since buildings could very profitably be turned over in those days
It's hard to decide whether it's the innanity, the stupidity, or just the gross level of insult to one's intelligence inherent in this sort of pap that makes it such a surprise that anyone would bother typing it without a gun to their head.
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Sep 16, 2009 - 04:01pm PT
|
Joe wrote
""...that it was prewired for demolition from day one since buildings could very profitably be turned over in those days
It's hard to decide whether it's the innanity, the stupidity, or just the gross level of insult to one's intelligence inherent in this sort of pap that makes it such a surprise that anyone would bother typing it without a gun to their head."
screw you healyJ!
I made no claim that it was true, just that I heard an architect, in person, say he was part of the design team, and that they prewired it in case it needed to go.
What's so weird about that? Most buildings have to go someday, wouldn't it be cheaper to have the wiring rigged in advance? Doesn't mean they planned to blow up up on the sly, just that they would have an easy time blowing it legit style in the future like many buildings
Peace
Karl
|
|
monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
|
|
|
Sep 16, 2009 - 04:04pm PT
|
It's been brought up before Rox. There's been plenty of time to consider it. It's about as loony as it gets. Do we really need to explain it to you so you can prattle on about some detail?
And Karl, it's amazing you gave that idea any credence.
|
|
pedge
Trad climber
SW
|
|
|
Sep 16, 2009 - 04:14pm PT
|
Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld didn’t find any WMD in Iraq because they were just disposable faces. They were not in on the 911 plan, they just did what they thought they were supposed to, and then they became less useful, which meant they could be discredited. Anyone we might think was involved in the conspiracy was not. The people who are actually involved in the ongoing manipulation of world events do not waste their time with public personas. Their aims and the logic of their plans are and will remain inscrutable, which is why trying to reveal the “truth” about any aspect of what they are doing is pointless. Just because we catch an occasional glimpse of places where the world does not fit together in the way it is supposed to does not mean that we can have any real insight into what is going on behind the scenes. Their plans and objectives are as incomprehensible to us as was the logic or justice of God’s actions to Job. Its best to simply assess the challenges within our actual spheres of action and try to be a good person. Articulated belief in the unknowable is, essentially, false idol worship. Faith is the movement away from the attempt to specifically image that which is beyond us. Have faith and stop trying to find the truth in this, because you will succeed in discrediting no one except those who have been set up for that purpose.
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Sep 16, 2009 - 04:46pm PT
|
"And Karl, it's amazing you gave that idea any credence."
What's weird about that theory Monolith. All I said was that an archetect involved in drafting the plans said they had plans to wire for it's eventual demolition. Sounds like a reasonable idea having nothing whatever to do with any conspiracy or ill will to me.
In a thread like this, how is hearing something non-conspiratorial directly from the source remotely looney? Are you guys listening? Having the building plumbed for fire extinguishers woudn't mean they planned to start a fire.
PEace
Karl
|
|
k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2009 - 12:08am PT
|
We are talking about a 269,434 lb plane, hitting the pentagon wall at around 400 MPH.
Do you believe the official story?
On one hand, we're to believe planes brought down the towers.
On the other, the plane that hit the Pentagon did almost no damage.
What is it. Do planes wreck buildings, or don't they?
|
|
monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2009 - 12:15am PT
|
Yep, all buildings are the same and must suffer identical damage when hit by a plane.
|
|
k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2009 - 12:18am PT
|
Now there's a real smart reply! (Hint: not!)
Take a few minutes and read though this, you might find it interesting:
http://patriotsquestion911.com/Counterterrorism_Veterans.pdf
These are decorated folks who have served their lives defending the US... Go ahead, open it up and read for a minute or two.
|
|
Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2009 - 12:20am PT
|
Kman: are you seriously saying you cannot see the plane in that post crash picture?
Shiit man.... get a grip!!!!!111666
|
|
philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2009 - 12:23am PT
|
What plane Russ?
Great link Kman!
|
|
dirtbag
climber
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2009 - 12:25am PT
|
For f*#k sake people, there are loads of folks who saw the damned plane crash into the building.
Not to mention the fact that the plane that crashed into the pentagon, and all its passengers, went missing.
Let me guess: the passengers and the airline are part of the conspiracy too?
These "ideas" richly deserve the ridicule they are receiving. Get a grip.
Edit: looks like Russ also suggested you get a grip. Well yeah, what Russ said.
|
|
k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2009 - 12:29am PT
|
I don't know, maybe we should ask somebody who was there? You know, somebody who worked for the Pentagon. Perhaps a scientist?
|
|
philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2009 - 12:30am PT
|
Loads of people? Name one!
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2009 - 12:32am PT
|
Let me tell you retards how it was done.
Nope, not today.
I don't want to keep having to replace my break lines and weird guys in black suv's parked outside wearing dark sunglasses on overcast days .....
|
|
k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2009 - 12:32am PT
|
Lt. Col. Kwiatkowski was working in the Pentagon on 9/11 in her
capacity as Political-Military Affairs officer in the Office of
the Secretary of Defense when Flight 77 allegedly hit the
Pentagon.
She wrote:
“There was a dearth of visible debris on the relatively unmarked
lawn, where I stood only minutes after the impact. Beyond this
strange absence of airliner debris, there was no sign of the
kind of damage to the Pentagon structure one would expect from
the impact of a large airliner. This visible evidence or lack
thereof may also have been apparent to the Secretary of Defense
[Donald Rumsfeld], who in an unfortunate slip of the tongue
referred to the aircraft that slammed into the Pentagon as a
‘missile.’
“I saw nothing of significance at the point of impact - no
airplane metal or cargo debris was blowing on the lawn in front
of the damaged building as smoke billowed from within the
Pentagon. ... [A]ll of us staring at the Pentagon that morning
were indeed looking for such debris, but what we expected to see
was not evident.
“The same is true with regard to the kind of damage we expected.
... But I did not see this kind of damage. Rather, the facade
had a rather small hole, no larger than 20 feet in diameter.
Although this facade later collapsed, it remained standing for
30 or 40 minutes, with the roof line remaining relatively
straight.
“The scene, in short, was not what I would have expected from a
strike by a large jetliner. It was, however, exactly what one
would expect if a missile had struck the Pentagon. ... More
information is certainly needed regarding the events of 9/11 and
the events leading up to that terrible day.”
|
|
k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2009 - 12:36am PT
|
Kman: are you seriously saying you cannot see the plane in that post crash picture?
Funny Russ. Yeah, I see a plane...can I go now? I gotta pee...
|
|
monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2009 - 12:36am PT
|
Yea, lets will run planes into the towers, then hit the pentagon with a missile in front of thousands of commuters, stop traffic, plant the evidence on the freeway(knocked down poles), then claim it was a plane.
Makes sense to me.
|
|
dirtbag
climber
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2009 - 12:37am PT
|
Funny how the whackjob conspiracy sites never show this photo:
Let me guess, some guy in sunglasses and a dark suit sprinkled this sh#t on the lawn after the fact.
And what about those missing passengers? Or the missing airliner?
|
|
k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2009 - 12:38am PT
|
No, they do show that photo, with the roof line intact.
Wow, that piece sure seals the deal for me. I mean, amazing that ANY piece of the place is left! [BTW, that's sarcasm.]
|
|
monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2009 - 12:41am PT
|
Yep, k-man, that part of the building collapsed later due to the fire, just like the towers.
Is that shocking?
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2009 - 12:42am PT
|
I had access to the remote video camera there and saw suits run over there and plant that sh'it.
|
|
Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2009 - 12:42am PT
|
That is obviously a 5L Heineken can painted to look like a plane and tossed out there by a photog down on his luck and needing some quick coin.....
Father Stephen McGraw lives down the street from me... and is now saying it was a frozen turkey shot from a rain gun, not a plane that wiped out the Pentagon.
|
|
monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2009 - 12:46am PT
|
Also, K-man, there were generators and other structures in front of that section due to the construction and were struck by the plane on its way in.
Not surprising that there would be some debris on the lawn.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2009 - 12:47am PT
|
Of course, ..... you read and saw it on the internet so it must be true.
|
|
dirtbag
climber
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2009 - 12:49am PT
|
And I suppose the passengers that were on that missing flight, and the plane that disappeared, went where...?
Oh the plot thickens!!!
So let's see... we have as conspirators:
The US Military
The President's office
The CIA
The FBI
Al Qaeda
City of NY
Various Airlines
Various Passengers
The MSM, the entire MSM, for not reporting the truth
Congress
Countless electricians, carpenters, etc who wire WTC 7 for explosives
Thousands of folks involved in this great conspiracy who so far, have managed to keep this great secret.
O-kay.
|
|
Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2009 - 12:51am PT
|
It never happened!
|
|
monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2009 - 12:54am PT
|
Not all of us are mystics and can fly through space and time Werner. We have to make sense of the totality of sources and experience that we have.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2009 - 12:55am PT
|
That's right!
It never happened how they, think it happened.
|
|
k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2009 - 01:50am PT
|
that part of the building collapsed later due to the fire
Obviously. But, why it didn't collapse due to the friggin' HUGE jet hitting it is beyond me!
One: Plane loaded with fuel takes down huge building.
Two: Plane loaded with fuel leaves a 20' diameter hole. Plane vaporized, however, and leaves no trace. Wings? Vaporized before
they hit the building.
If you believe that, fine. I don't.
BTW, did you bother to read through the link I provided?
Naw, why should you when you already know all there is to know.
And besides, ignorance is bliss.
|
|
monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2009 - 02:00am PT
|
They were both struck, burned for a while, then collapsed.
The outer wall of the pentagon was thick, reinforced concrete. The towers were thin steel.
You honestly can't see the wing damage in that shot?
|
|
k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2009 - 02:05am PT
|
Father Stephen McGraw lives down the street from me... and is now saying it was a frozen turkey shot from a rain gun
Naw Russ, it was this guy, with two pumps:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65JY0tDHRhM
|
|
k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2009 - 02:11am PT
|
You honestly can't see the wing damage in that shot?
Um, no. And neither could Lt. Col. Kwiatkowski, who was actually at the Pentagon on 9/11.
But, I'm sure you can see the wing damage, parts of the plane, and probably even Mr. McGoo, if that's what the 9/11 commission said.
|
|
Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2009 - 02:14am PT
|
Holy shiit! I'm starting to believe! That Spud_Gun was full on bad azzzzz! Mapp_Gas even!
|
|
k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2009 - 02:17am PT
|
Dude! This is crazy.
Look at this picture, right above the one you show:
http://www.defenselink.mil/photos/Sep2001/010914-F-8006R-001.jpg
Where is the plane?? Where are the wings?? You gotta be kidding me,
this is supposed to be proof that a jet plane hit this building?
Do you seriously believe the wings just vaporized when they hit the building, with so little damage to the building?
Well, I guess you do. However, many, many folks don't.
[Edit] From the report: "We see that the entire left wing
damaged the building, and almost the entire wing except for the
wing tip entered the building."
To be honest, I do not see much damage from the left wing. And, I do not see where the entire wing, except for the tip, entered the building. All the columns on the left are intact.
Can you explain this?
|
|
monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2009 - 02:18am PT
|
Dude, there was an intense fire. Planes are made of aluminum.
|
|
monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2009 - 02:22am PT
|
See the point where it says 'left wing impact hole'?
All those supports are shoring put up later for safety during the cleanup.
From that page:
Finally for comparison, I offer a photo taken of the collapsed section days afterward. Note that columns 4-8 are numbered on the columns themselves by the recovery workers. Note also the impact damage at columns 4-8 which was visible in the Morris photo. Between columns 8-11 we find the left wing impact hole, shored up but exactly of the same dimensions seen in the Morris photo. Note that the left edge of the collapse is right at column 11, where we saw the vertical displacement in the Ingersoll photos. The right edge of the collapsed section is right at column 18 -- exactly where the right wing impact hole terminated. In the collapsed section itself, columns 12 through 17 are visible. Also note that right wing impact damage extends beyond the hole, between columns 18 and 21 -- from the second floor, to the third and fourth floors, just as we saw in photo #5.
|
|
k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2009 - 02:37am PT
|
Mono, other plane wrecks leave pieces of the plane. Lots of them. But here, there are not even any wings. Where they were supposed to hit the building, there's very little damage. Take a look at the right where the wing was supposed to have hit so hard, it vaporized. And you're telling me that the entire plane melted? From a huge fire?? If that's the case, then the building, where the wings fizzled up in smoke, should be crispy like burned fried chicken. To me, the chit doesn't fly--way too many "suspension of disbelief" things going on here.
Look at your own friggin photo. You know, where it says "Right wing impact damage." Look at that and tell me that's where the wing hit so hard, burned so hot, that it disappeared.
But, I appreciate that some folks buy, hook line and sinker, all the crap that is written by the Gov't on 911. Funny, though, that those folks (CIA, NSA, Military, Navy SEALS, and so on) in my link don't buy it. And some of them were right there.
|
|
philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2009 - 02:46am PT
|
"Dude, there was an intense fire. Planes are made of aluminum."
Yes but the engines are made of tons of titanium. Where are they? They should have punched significant holes in the building along the wing damage zone. Where is that damage? Jet fuel does NOT burn hot enough to vaporize titanium. So where are those big engines?
Those of you with your Fux news blinders on too tight wont remember that initially there was only a small round hole. That was covered up with a huge tarp before the roof line collapsed. Curiouser and curiouser.
So many of you would rather believe the unbelievable because you were told to. And it is so much easier than thinking critically and analytically. Because, you know, the US of A never does anything wrong right?
|
|
S.Powers
Boulder climber
Joshua Tree, CA
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2009 - 03:58am PT
|
I think this has something to do with the rabid cat at the fish compound.
|
|
Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 17, 2009 - 01:40pm PT
|
Oh, yes the Pentalawn 2000 . . .
Yep, that civilian commercial jet just slammed into the Pentagon and went through a 16' - 18' diameter hole and the wings just folded up like some umbrella and went on in with it. Had to since there isn't any debri immediatly after the impact and explosion. Where did all the debri go? Yea, it just vaporized like magic. And they call us "Conspiracy Theorists." Dang, now the OCT is having us believe in magic.
Hey, yo, guvment! Just release all the video and images of the Pentagon strike and it will all be over. Waiting . . . Waitng still . . . Waiting . . . Nutin but crickets . . .
Enjoy!
PentaLawn 2000!
http://www.rense.com/general29/penta.htm
|
|
pedge
Trad climber
SW
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2009 - 02:26pm PT
|
Dude, you are obsessed and crazy. Step back from the nit picking debates of the details of what you think is irrefutable evidence, and engage in some big picture analysis. And then share it. Who and why and what else would you necessarily expect to happen if it was a missile rather than an airplane. Its how you keep perspective which is essential to functioning as a contributing citizen rather than as a crank.
Compare to the Gulf of Tonkin, what happened, why and what was revealed and when and how, and evaluate the big picture reality of your hypothesis. Where is the meaningful motive, means or corroboration in real world follow up events? Some of these questions are raised by other posters.
But on the details, do you really need to wait for someone to explain the difference between a non functioning airplane plowing into the ground and a functional plane flying low but trying to remain level, dipping and getting a ground effect lift?
|
|
Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 17, 2009 - 02:51pm PT
|
Ah, yes the classic Pentagon Strike! An oldy but a darn goody. It was the first short video clip that really got me thinking about the truth of 9-11. Still valid many years later although we now know so much more. See Pilots for 9-11 Truth website. The evidence is overwhelming that flight 77 did not slame into and strike the Pentagon.
The evidence suggests: a missile, or a small jet aircraft, or a small jet aircraft with a missile. That is what the evidence demonstrates over and over, from all points of view. That means MIHOP.
Like I said release all the confiscated videos and images. Prove it. Still waiting . . .
Pentagon Strike!
http://www.ottawa911truth.com/images/pentagonstrike.swf
|
|
dirtbag
climber
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2009 - 03:34pm PT
|
"To go into the conspiracy angle further than I have evidence for, to those who say the witnesses saw an airplane strike the building, perspective is easily fooled. A much smaller vehicle painted as a scale model could easily been mistaken for a MUCH LARGER vehicle much further away, at 400-500 MPH. Say something about 1/4 the size, just to pick a number. "
This sh#t keeps getting funnier and funnier.
Maybe a wolf piloted it?
It's fun to make up stuff, isn't it. I could do it all day long, yee-haw.
|
|
dirtbag
climber
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2009 - 03:45pm PT
|
Oh I'm just admiring your active imagination. CTers have a pretty active imagination, I'll give them that.
Flying a model in place of a plane is like a wolf in sheep's clothing. LOL!
|
|
dirtbag
climber
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2009 - 03:53pm PT
|
Well Wolf-Boy, for starters I thought the photos/article monolith provided seemed persuasive.
But if you want to find a bogeyman somewhere, have at it.
|
|
Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2009 - 03:56pm PT
|
Inflatable plane...... filled with hydrogen and sporting a nose full of thermite
(obviously)
|
|
wally
Trad climber
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2009 - 04:34pm PT
|
Don't forget the magical vapourizing twin jet engines which like rokjok said CAN ONLY BE MELTED IN AN ELECTRIC ARC FURNACE. But they vanished right???
Cause it makes allot of sense that jet fuel alone could melt them or they would crush up like a tin can.
Please open your eyes/brains people
I would be happy if someone could explain to me(a total nut job bent on conspiracy theories) How NASA could have recorded temps over 1000 degrees F a week after the collisons took place. Jet fuel dosen't burn that high. Friction could not creat that kind of temp. Energy isn't created or destroyed so HOW???
Did maybe the towers fall into a hidden lava pool, or maybe puncture the earths crust causing a venturi effect that brough magma up to the surface?
|
|
Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2009 - 04:40pm PT
|
Lance Lynch / Rokjox writes: (After all, I have MET Russ.)
That there is a leg humping lie. Date, time and pics please.
|
|
pedge
Trad climber
SW
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2009 - 04:42pm PT
|
Pudgy? The BF is still below 6% and thats an objective measurement.
Name calling again? Depressing.
If they wanted us to believe it was an airplane, why wouldn't they just use one rather than a missile, given their resources?
I am not a structural engineer, but wouldn't you expect the many who are to be up in arms about this if the damage to the Pentagon was as obviously inconsistent with an airplane strike as you insist? The photos are widely available.
|
|
Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2009 - 04:44pm PT
|
When (in the USA) you hear a bunch of hooves approaching, don't think "zebras"
|
|
dirtbag
climber
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2009 - 04:45pm PT
|
No engines? Christ, do you guys even do basic googling before spouting off nonsense? (apparently not)
(Actually, googling reveals tons of photos of wreckage)
Can't see Wolf Boy's photo on my server--I guess the Illuminati is concealing it from me.
|
|
wally
Trad climber
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2009 - 04:50pm PT
|
Would you put a six figure salary on the line to try and exspose your government?
Please i'm real dumb someone explain to me: Where is the wreckage of that plane?
Where did the engines go?
Why is the hole so small?
Why isn't their some burned grass (from engine exhast of the jet engines leading up to the building)
It's easy to call people crazy and say were full of sh#t. But it might be easier then realizing the truth.
|
|
dirtbag
climber
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2009 - 04:51pm PT
|
No Wally, there are no photos of engines anywhere: no engines were ever found.
|
|
cleo
Social climber
Berkeley, CA
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2009 - 05:14pm PT
|
dirtbag,
you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.
thank god most of us drink (or, in this case, think). time to go do something productive, your head must be killing you from butting it against the wall.
|
|
dirtbag
climber
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2009 - 05:14pm PT
|
Cleo,the laughter helps and if nothing else this thread does supply a good dose or two of that.
|
|
dirtbag
climber
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2009 - 05:15pm PT
|
Wolfboy, WTF do you know about aircraft engines?
I guess the Illuminati planted that sh#t there after the fact.
|
|
dirtbag
climber
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2009 - 05:28pm PT
|
Why bother?
You won't believe it anyway.
It's probably the work of the Illuminati as described in the Bible Codes. Or was that the faked moon landing?
(And the site I got those photos from concluded that those engine parts were about the right size for a 757: why the Illuminati would bother faking instead of crashing a real plane is beyond me)
But no matter. As long as conspiracy freaks are convinced that an all powerful, devilishly clever, and super secret something or other can control this, you guys will never accept reality. So go ahead, pretend that the passengers on that plane, or the plane itself, or the passenger's grieving families, were never real or are in fact a part of this twisted plot.
I just like giving you sh#t so I can laugh at you, and I am laughing robustly at you. Your ability to substitute facts with bullshit knows no bounds, but it is creative.
|
|
Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2009 - 05:38pm PT
|
And let's not forget those Ferocious Bloodthirsty Giant Ravening Canadian Wolves that were found nearby.
|
|
dirtbag
climber
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2009 - 05:49pm PT
|
Hey I am no expert. But you seem to have an opinion about everything: you even opined about the aircraft engines above. And you know what opinions are like.
It's funny though. You've provided a lot of mental masturbation about how the engines might have appeared there; how they don't appear to be the same size as actual engine parts; how people might have mistake a plane for a model
and other...blah blah blah...yada yada yada-worthy gems
I'm still waiting for your jizz about the disappearing passengers of flight 77--you know, the flight that never actually crashed. I'm a simpleton, but all those fancy scenarios seem much more incredibly complicated than concluding that a few nuts hijacked the planes (gee, no ones ever hijacked planes before) and flew them into buildings.
But hey, I'm just a sheep, brainwashed by the Illuminati.
|
|
philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2009 - 05:53pm PT
|
Have you ever looked at a 757? Ya doubters should Google a Boeing 757 image.
A BIG plane with two big engines. No way one hit the Pentagon!
|
|
dirtbag
climber
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2009 - 05:56pm PT
|
There's the photos of parts of the engines. Believe what you like, but there they are.
It seems like a lot more work for someone to somehow fake all this than to actualyl crash the plane into the building.
|
|
DJS
Trad climber
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2009 - 06:35pm PT
|
How bout a really simple explanation. A Consciousness higher than ourselves (Most of us refer to he/she/it as God)didn't like the fact that we were worshipping a
false prophet.... profit
yep death sucks... but it's a part of life...
forgiveness is healing... i think we all need to mover forward and start working together as a happy healthy planet so that something like this never happens again.
|
|
DJS
Trad climber
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2009 - 06:55pm PT
|
it's time for us to turn off the OCD machine on this issue... it happened its sucks but lets move on...
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2009 - 07:36pm PT
|
Hey??????
Where'd everybody go????
I'll soon revile how they did it. I'm applying for witness protection program. Gota go see a plastic surgeon first too.
|
|
philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2009 - 07:52pm PT
|
Revile?
|
|
Dick_Lugar
Trad climber
Indiana (the other Mideast)
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2009 - 09:12pm PT
|
Uhmmm...wings fold back towards the fuselage when they hit at that speed and a building reinforced to sustain bombings...the punchout hole I don't believe would be from a missile since it would have detonated within the first few structures of the Pentagon...oh, and there were eyewitness accounts of the plane...oh, and the people are missing...
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2009 - 09:34pm PT
|
People are missing, People are missing, People are missing, People are missing.
Brain washed people.
Doesn't mean they were on the plane/missile/flying cold turkey.
And here on this forum they keep stressing "critical thinking" "think for yourself".
But instead they "Baaaaaaaw" like sheep.
|
|
Dick_Lugar
Trad climber
Indiana (the other Mideast)
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2009 - 09:35pm PT
|
If you doubt it Werner, contact their families and ask them where they are? Have you been watching X-files again mister?
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2009 - 09:42pm PT
|
You can't read
|
|
More Air
Big Wall climber
S.L.C.
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2009 - 10:39pm PT
|
I saw a TV special about 911, I think it was National Geographic. It had lots of interviews of people who saw a big jetliner hit the Pentagon...some even said it was an American Airlines jet. There was also security camera footage. The special also mentioned that almost all of the passengers DNA had been found at the crash site.
|
|
dirtbag
climber
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2009 - 10:39pm PT
|
You know what that means More Air?
It means National Geographic is part of the conspiracy too. All of those years of showing half naked peoples in their magazines was just a way of gaining the trust of young men and lulling them into sheephood.
BAAAAAAH!!!
|
|
More Air
Big Wall climber
S.L.C.
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2009 - 10:42pm PT
|
Worked for me!
|
|
mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2009 - 10:43pm PT
|
FYI--the "security camera" footage released by the FBI (all were confiscated within MINUTES of the Pentevent) shows only a few frames, none of which have a jet airliner in them--OR any other object, just building and flames.
|
|
More Air
Big Wall climber
S.L.C.
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2009 - 11:52pm PT
|
The footage I saw showed a very large object hit the building.
|
|
Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
|
|
|
Sep 18, 2009 - 12:17am PT
|
"...If you doubt it Werner, contact their families and ask them where they are? Have you been watching X-files again mister?"
They're all being held at Area 51.
Curt
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Sep 18, 2009 - 12:23am PT
|
No
They're all dead.
"The footage I saw showed a very large object hit the building."
Yeah more bullsh'it. If you don't have the actual video frames and they're with holding them in so called "interest of national security" then it raises the suspicion level to, extreme.
This type of bullsh'it would never hold in a murder trial.
Constantly saying all these people, agencies, were complicit in a conspiracy also says absolutely nothing and proves nothing also.
|
|
mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
|
|
|
Sep 18, 2009 - 12:32am PT
|
If the God's-eye all knowing view could be seen, the masses would have dismissed it as BAU within a years time. Conspiracies/theories survive to allow people to be divided and weak/apathetic. A victim alike, I'd like to know the juicy details, and have seen enough movies not to be "surprised" and take to arms. The truth of 911 exists, it will just be never known, as nearly every variable has some questions surrounding it.
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Sep 23, 2009 - 11:50pm PT
|
Subj: [MCM] 9/11 Commission NOW REJECTS ITS OWN REPORT
Hang onto your hats:
John Farmer, Dean of the Law School at Rutgers University and former Attorney General of
New Jersey, was legal counsel to the 9/11 Commission, and in charge of drafting its report.
And now, having read through lots of further evidence, he's come to the conclusion that the official version of the story is almost entirely untrue, based on false testimony by the White House, CIA, FBI and NORAD.
His new book, The Ground Truth: The Story Behind America's Defense on 9/11, makes this case with loads of documentary evidence--and his colleagues on the commission are on board,
as the article below makes clear.
So are John Farmer and those other members of that very commission all "conspiracy theorists"?
Here's the press release re: Farmer's book from Rutgers University:
http://news.rutgers.edu/medrel/news-releases/2009/09/new-book-by-dean-joh-20090908
And here's the publisher's URL, so you can order a copy of the book:
http://www.tower.com/ground-truth-john-farmer-hardcover/wapi/112519212
Better to try Amazon.com -Sam
The 9/11 Commission Rejects own Report as Based on Government Lies
http://www.salem-news.com/articles/september112009/911_truth_9-11-09.php
(CINCINNATI, Ohio) - In John Farmer's book: "The Ground Truth: The Story Behind America's Defense on 9/11?, the author builds the inescapably convincing case that the official version... is almost entirely untrue...
The 9/11 Commission now tells us that the official version of 9/11 was based on false testimony and documents and is almost entirely untrue. The details of this massive cover-up are carefully outlined in a book by John Farmer, who was the Senior Counsel for the 9/11 Commission.
Farmer, Dean of Rutger Universities' School of Law and former Attorney General of New Jersey, was responsible for drafting the original flawed 9/11 report.
Does Farmer have cooperation and agreement from other members of the Commission? Yes. Did they say Bush ordered 9/11? No. Do they say that the 9/11 Commission was lied to by the FBI, CIA, Whitehouse and NORAD? Yes. Is there full documentary proof of this? Yes.
Farmer states..."at some level of the government, at some point in time…there was an agreement not to tell the truth about what happened... I was shocked at how different the truth was from the way it was described …. The [Norad air defense] tapes told a radically different story from what had been told to us and the public for two years. This is not spin."
The 9/11 Commission head, Thomas Kean, was the Republican governor of New Jersey. He had the following to say... "We to this day don't know why NORAD [the North American Aerospace Command] told us what they told us, it was just so far from the truth. . . " When Bush's own handpicked commission failed to go along with the cover up and requested a criminal investigation, why was nothing done?
9/11 Commission member and former US Senator, Bob Kerrey, says, "No one is more qualified to write the definitive book about the tragedy of 9/11 than John Farmer. Fortunately, he has done so. Even more fortunately the language is clear, alive and instructive for anyone who wants to make certain this never happens again."
With the only "official" 9/11 report now totally false, where do we go from here? Who is hurt by these lies? The families of the victims of 9/11 have fought, for years, to get to the truth.
For years, our government has hidden behind lies and secrecy to deny them closure.
In 2006, The Washington Post reported..."Suspicion of wrongdoing ran so deep that the 10-member commission, in a secret meeting at the end of its tenure in summer 2004, debated referring the matter to the Justice Department for criminal investigation, according to several commission sources. Staff members and some commissioners thought that e-mails and other evidence provided enough probable cause to believe that military and aviation officials violated the law by making false statements to Congress and to the commission..."
What does Farmer's book tell us? Farmer offers no solutions, only a total and full rejection of what was told and his own his own ideas concerning the total failure of honesty on the part of the government, a government with something to hide.
Farmer never tells us what. Nobody could keep a job in the public sector speaking out more than Farmer has. What were Farmer's omissions? There are some. Now that we know that intelligence given the 9/11 Commission wasn't just lies from our own government but based on testimony coerced through torture from informants forced to back up a cover story now proven false, a pattern emerges.
We know that, immediately after 9/11, many more potential suspects and informants were flown directly to Saudi Arabia by Presidential order than were ever detained and questioned. We will never know what they could have said. Their testimony would have been vital to any real investigation were they not put beyond the reach of even Congress and the FBI.
Putting aside all other questions of recent evidence of CIA involvement with bin Laden prior to 9/11 or altered physical evidence involving the Pentagon attack, any failure to call to account the systematic perjury committed by dozens of top government officials, now exposed as a certainty is an offense to every American.
What do we know? We know the conjecture about 9/11 still stands but for certain, we know we were lied to, not in a minor way, but systematically as part of a plot covering up government involvement at nearly every level, perhaps gross negligence, perhaps something with darker intent.
Are we willing to live with another lie to go with the Warren Report, Iran Contra and so many others? Has the sacrifice of thousands more Americans, killed, wounded or irreparably damaged by a war knowingly built on the same lies from the same liars who misled the 9/11 Commission pushed us beyond willingness to confront the truth?
Have we yet found where the lies have begun and ended? There is no evidence of this, only evidence to the contrary. The lies live on and the truth will never be sought. The courage for that task has not been found.
Can anyone call themselves an American if they don't demand, even with the last drop of their blood, that the truth be found?
How long have we watered the Tree of Deceit with the blood of patriots?
|
|
TGT
Social climber
So Cal
|
|
|
Sep 24, 2009 - 12:26am PT
|
The tinfoil hats have failed to keep the conspiracy brain worms at bay.
Maybe they should try something more juvenile, This might shake them loose and expel them via centrifugal force.
|
|
dirtbag
climber
|
|
|
Sep 29, 2009 - 06:51pm PT
|
Thanks for the laughs!
|
|
| Messages 1 - 246 of total 246 in this topic |
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Salomon Smith Barney
Let us know!