Discussion Topic |
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Topic Author's Original Post - Sep 10, 2009 - 06:44pm PT
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God rest their souls.
God it was a different world the day before.
Juan
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franky
climber
Davis, CA
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Sep 10, 2009 - 07:05pm PT
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The world wouldn't be any different now if not for the fear mongering crooked idiots running this country. Also, is the world really any different?
Auto accidents kill 10 times as many people per year and yet there haven't been any true safety advances in cars in years.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Sep 10, 2009 - 07:15pm PT
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Seems to me that those terrorists:
1. Didn't wiretap americans.
2. Didn't burn trillions of dollars killing people for their ideology (they did more for a few million than we did with a Trillion).
3. Didn't make turn our back on the geneva convention, we did that ourselves.
The number of people killed that day was terrible, but much more tragic was our governments oppurtunistic power grab in the wake of the attack.
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Sep 10, 2009 - 07:19pm PT
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I'm truly sorry for all of those that died that day elsewhere in the world and were more quickly forgotten than usual because of the other stuff that happened that day in N.Y. that had nothing to do with them.
9/11 sucked for those that died that day and for their loved ones but every day sucks for someone out there. Don't forget them just because they were not victims of terrorism.
Dave
Edit: But yes, R.I.P. those that died that day. I feel for them too.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Sep 10, 2009 - 07:21pm PT
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Also, is the world really any different?
What an ignorant thing to say. About 3,000 more people would be alive today and we'd still have 2 magnificant towers standing in New York.
God bless those who were MURDERED that day, as opposed to dying in a random car accident (although I do have pity for them too).
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franky
climber
Davis, CA
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Sep 10, 2009 - 07:23pm PT
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the people i agree with you on, but who gives a sh#t about two random buildings in a world of concrete.
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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Sep 10, 2009 - 07:31pm PT
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Towers don't go down and that piece of sh#t george dubya bush has a harder time lying his way into an illegal war.
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BrianH
Trad climber
santa fe
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Sep 10, 2009 - 07:31pm PT
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"About 3,000 more people would be alive today "
Let's not forget our soldiers never coming back. Let's not forget the 100s of thousands innocent civilians dead in Iraq.
Both groups are still taking casualties.
People are dying today in Afghanistan.
God bless everyone. No exceptions.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno
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Sep 10, 2009 - 07:32pm PT
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Ugh! Thanks for reminding me about the Marketing Bonanza of Bullshit™ I will have to endure tomorrow.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Sep 10, 2009 - 07:38pm PT
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Towers don't go down and that piece of sh#t george dubya bush has a harder time lying his way into an illegal war.
Which war was illegal, Afghan or Iraqi???
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Sep 10, 2009 - 07:40pm PT
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franky
climber
Davis, CA
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Sep 10, 2009 - 08:02pm PT
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Your fervor over this event as compared to any other event were mass quantities of people have died or been killed is repulsive to me.
Where in the bible does it say anything about nationality mattering when it comes to caring about people... (not that I care what the bible says)
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Sep 10, 2009 - 08:02pm PT
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A very horrible day. It's sickening regular people have to be pawns in these f*#king power games. There's just a few asswipes in this world that have to make it miserable for all of us.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Sep 10, 2009 - 08:03pm PT
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Where in the bible does it say anything about nationality mattering when it comes to caring about people...
Nationality doesn't matter. Japanese, German,etc...if you attack us, we WILL respond. And we should, shouldn't we????
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franky
climber
Davis, CA
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Sep 10, 2009 - 08:05pm PT
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hmm, no I don't think we should respond by killing innocent people... That would make us... well I'll let you figure that out.
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S.Powers
Boulder climber
Joshua Tree, CA
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Sep 10, 2009 - 08:07pm PT
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"A very horrible day. It's sickening regular people have to be pawns in these f*#king power games. There's just a few asswipes in this world that have to make it miserable for all of us."
Best response yet.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Sep 10, 2009 - 08:34pm PT
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This is the eve of that day.
Just as we remember the 4TH of July,
Christmas, Martin L.King, we remember Jesus death on the cross with the bread and wine
But your right we should be saddened by what happens to all peoples, Gods childern, all of us!
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Sep 10, 2009 - 08:44pm PT
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hey there juan, say, just a small simple note to you...
thank you for sharing your sorrow, as to folks that have died...
this is always a respectable thing to do on the memory of any sorrowful occurance...
god bless...
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Sep 10, 2009 - 08:57pm PT
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hmm, no I don't think we should respond by killing innocent people... That would make us... well I'll let you figure that out.
Franky, do you know the difference between killing and murder? You just alluded to it. They repeatedly INTENTIONALLY TARGET INNOCENTS AND CIVILIANS, we NEVER DO. In fact, they even use civilians as shields, ya know why? I just alluded to it.
There may be innocents that are inadvertently caught in our crossfire, or collateral damage, but we NEVER target the innocents.
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WandaFuca
Gym climber
A survey where 68% preferred this Fuca over others
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Sep 10, 2009 - 09:11pm PT
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They repeatedly INTENTIONALLY TARGET INNOCENTS AND CIVILIANS, we NEVER DO.
Dresden? Tokyo? Hiroshima? Nagasaki? Hanoi?
RIP
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Sep 10, 2009 - 09:16pm PT
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And what did we do before we dropped those bombs on Japan, Fuca? Do you remember? (Hint: We did they same thing prior to invading Afghanistan and Iraq.)
You're other claims are false.
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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Sep 10, 2009 - 09:24pm PT
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blue - predator drones.
nuff said...
so it was on 9/10 that rummy admitted the pentagon lost a couple trillion bucks - anyone remember that ? pretty convenient 9/11 happened...unless you are one of the 5k we've thrown away in iraq (WHO DIDN'T ATTACK US AND HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH 9 11)...just sayin...
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Sep 10, 2009 - 09:26pm PT
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blue - predator drones.
What about them? Do you know how they get positive ID on their targets? Sure, the warlords sometimes hide amongst their women, but, is that our fault?
Are all those women really innocent?
Your Messiah is still approving these justified strikes too!
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/staff/jonathan_landay/story/75036.html
Notice in the link that women AND children are seen to be ferrying ammo to the Taliban rats!
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WandaFuca
Gym climber
A survey where 68% preferred this Fuca over others
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Sep 10, 2009 - 09:27pm PT
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Ya need to study some history before ya open your trap blue.
Look up firebombing Dresden, firebombing Tokyo.
Nice and comfortable to believe what you want to believe; facts are sooooo annoying.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Sep 10, 2009 - 09:31pm PT
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Do you that Japan was warned of our attack and asked to surrender? We f*#king told them we were gonna drop a 'new weapon' on them.
After the first one we warned them again, but they thought we only had one and tried to call our bluff. They chose wrong!
Maybe it would've been better to invade and lose 300,000 in a ground invasion?
Dresden was brought on by the NAZI's, we didn't want that fight. It was they only way, again, to get a surrender.
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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Sep 10, 2009 - 09:31pm PT
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my messiah ? dude get a grip...
so we killed 45 civies attacking two people at a wedding - and you're telling me this is acceptable collateral ? i didn't realize you were so scared...
edit : and we dropped the bomb to show russia we had it and weren't afraid to use it. japan could have rolled over and played the f*#king irish national anthem on bagpipes, we still were gonna bomb...
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Sep 10, 2009 - 09:33pm PT
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Pagan, you think we knew they were an 'innocent wedding party' and said, "Let's f*#k their sh#t up"?
we still were gonna bomb...
let's not speculate here....
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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Sep 10, 2009 - 09:34pm PT
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warned or knott the target with both a-bombs was "innocents".
Oh wait... nevermind... couldn't be. cuz we never target innocents...
cuz you said so.
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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Sep 10, 2009 - 09:35pm PT
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speculate ?? no dude. I'm pretty sure this one's a known fact based on historical artifacts...
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Sep 10, 2009 - 09:36pm PT
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Darren Bohan 9/--/1966 - 9/11/2001
Darren was working on the 102 floor of the North tower. One of his coworkers said he stayed behind to help his supervisor make certain that everyone got out. That was just like Darren. He wasn't going to leave anyone behind. Neither his supervisor or Darren got out.
Darren was one my first friends when I moved to Wawona. He loved the outdoors. He loved music and playing the guitar. He made an awesome New York pizza. He could juggle fire and tell jokes. We use to backpack, and hike and go to the river and play basketball. We learned to make beer together and drank many a six pack.
One time when we were playing one on one basketball, I kept beating him off the dribble to my left. I finally broke down and asked him why he didn't shade me to the left because that was the only move I had. He said " John, I know thats the only move you got. You are such a lousy player that if I shaded you to the left you would never score on me, and thats no fun. So I play you straight up and its a challenge to try to stop you, so the game is fun for both of us".
I laughed my ass off at that. That is just the way Darren was. He liked for everyone to have fun.
One summer I dropped him off in Mammoth so he could hike over the Sierra to Wawona. He was wearing cheap tennis shoes. I knew he had a penchant for going off trail so I worried about him and asked him about his shoes. He was always broke because he spent his money on beer and music. He said he would be alright as he had a roll of duct tape. He was back 2 weeks later and sure enough, his shoes were held together with duct tape. He had a big ol grin on his face and was the happiest I had seen him in awhile as his girlfriend had broken up with him the month before. Give him a fishing pole and 2 weeks in the woods and he was a happy man.
I still miss him.
See you on the other side Darren.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Sep 10, 2009 - 09:37pm PT
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To put it in perspective, I believe that more people died on 9-11 than at Pearl Harbour, which is amazing.
I would have like Darren, John. Sorry I never met him. RIP.
F*#k the habeilys.
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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Sep 10, 2009 - 09:37pm PT
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in memory of those that died on 9 11
whatever happened to those incarcerated mossad agents anyway ? fatty ?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Sep 10, 2009 - 09:37pm PT
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Doug, so we should have done a ground invasion and have 300,000 of our own killed and the same number on their side?
They got off easy! Remember, they picked the f*#king fight!
Fuca said "Firebombing & nuking civilians isn't terrorism?"
Nope, see above. Civialns weren't target, their ability to do war was. AND THEY WERE TOLD TO SURRENDER!!!
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Cloudraker
Big Wall climber
BC
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Sep 10, 2009 - 09:39pm PT
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John, nice story
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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Sep 10, 2009 - 09:39pm PT
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Thank you for sharing that, John.
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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Sep 10, 2009 - 09:42pm PT
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nice one moosie. sorry you lost a friend.
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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Sep 10, 2009 - 09:43pm PT
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Blue....
I'm not interested in a discussion of what we should have done. that isn't my point.
my point is simple.
you stated "They repeatedly INTENTIONALLY TARGET INNOCENTS AND CIVILIANS, we NEVER DO."
You've now been shown the above statement is total bullshiit. Putting us Americas on some sort "oh were so good pedastal" is part of the reason why people might want to run planes into our buildings.
but I realize you don't get that part....
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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Sep 10, 2009 - 09:49pm PT
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nice one howard.
i don't feel it was our fault at all...unless you count cheney ordering the stand down...
how come we can intercept payne stewart's jet in half an hour over the western central US but can't catch 4 planes over the most populated airspace in the country ?
those that died in the towers deserve the truth, dude.
and even the government commission we set up to investigate and report tells us their story is a lie.
you tell me, howard. tell me what i'm missing here.
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Delhi Dog
Trad climber
Good Question...
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Sep 10, 2009 - 09:53pm PT
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RIP to all the innocent.
Those WWC folks did not deserve what was heaped on them.
Blue, check your facts.
Civilians were the targets specifically in Dresden as was the war industry there (and that isn't the only place).
You only sound more and more foolish.
I do agree with you at times, but you're mixing up your facts which only shows your narrow mind.
We are not perfect and as a country and have made some very bad choices. We should admit them and not hide behind them with BS. We are better than that because we have also made some very very noble and good choices...
We should spend (at least!)a minute or two today/tomorrow putting energy into making our world a better place. Those dead deserve at least that don't they?
Cheers,
DD
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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Sep 10, 2009 - 09:54pm PT
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actually, howard - it's about to come out ;-)
cheers...
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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Sep 10, 2009 - 09:56pm PT
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HD... I'm not really getting where you are coming from. Don't think I'll try any more. I'm certainly not trying to make any argument that we had it coming or somehow deserved it. I just have a problem with ignorant statements like blues...
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Sep 10, 2009 - 10:13pm PT
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The 9/11 deal was a true tragedy. I wish we had come up with a positive way to deal with it, instead of letting a few in power pimp it for their own, personal gain.
Vibes to all involved.
"Which war was illegal, Afghan or Iraqi???"
-I'll go with Iraq for the house, Alex.
wonder if it succedded in buying Daddie's good will?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Sep 10, 2009 - 10:14pm PT
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"Putting us Americas on some sort "oh were so good pedastal" is part of the reason why people might want to run planes into our buildings. "
Doug, we do not target innocent people. If you're helping the war machine are you a legit military target? You are not an innocent civilian.
And Dresden? Gimme a break we were targeting war factories. If you are in one, are you an innocent civilian during wartime? I don't think so.
Why are journalists not allowed to carry weapons (by us)?
You idiots are splitting f*#king hairs big time. Slamming 2 planes into a business building in a time peace and killing a bunch of business men and secretaries...is that different than dropping bombs on tank factories in a time of war?
Oh wait, I know the answer, they are so oppressed by Zionists that the only way they can kill infidels, is to use airplanes into civi's. Yeah, I got it!
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Sep 10, 2009 - 10:16pm PT
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Blue your swimming in the deep end again.
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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Sep 10, 2009 - 10:17pm PT
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dropping an atomic bomb on a city of a million.... oh... nevermind.....
my statement about ignorance stands....
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Sep 10, 2009 - 10:17pm PT
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Do you prefer the kiddy side of the pool, philo?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Sep 10, 2009 - 10:20pm PT
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Hey Doug, pay attention.
All estimates based on the invasions and resistance of Guadal Canal and other area are that a ground invasion of Japan would have killed close to 500,000 troops and civi's. Should we have done that and maybe not end the war that the rat-fuk Japs started, or warn them that they need to surrender or we will f*#k your world up.
Which is it?
Maybe we should have just taken the hits from PH and shrunk into a pacifist hole and they'd just leave us alone....
We also warned Afghanistan and Iraq. They gambled too.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Sep 10, 2009 - 10:23pm PT
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Yeah, Fuca, let's listen to him. He was waaayyy more honorable than Truman and Roosevelt.
This equivocation is amazing to me. It's like you want us to just get attacked and sit here and pussyfoot around.
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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Sep 10, 2009 - 10:23pm PT
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when you swim in the deep end you should take the lead weights off your ankles. You don't look good bubbling at the bottom of the pool.
I'm done here. You don't get it. You never will. It's obvious....
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Sep 10, 2009 - 10:24pm PT
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Then leave...
You're the one that that thinks we WANT to KILL AS MANY CIVI's as possible. I say they do. We go after legit targets that SOMETIMES may have civi's in them. They weren't the target.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Sep 10, 2009 - 10:26pm PT
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" Dresden? Gimme a break we were targeting war factories. If you are in one, are you an innocent civilian during wartime? I don't think so. "
Obviously you have not read Slaughterhouse Five, or you would know better than to even think of saying something as ignorant as that. Tonight would be a really good night to turn the first page. I'm sure the movie (not as good) is available on Itunes or somewhere, for immediate viewing.
You now that I like and respect you, Bluering, but you really need to look a little deeper into this one.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Sep 10, 2009 - 10:28pm PT
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Is it fact or fiction Jay?
Is it based on a German account? Dresden wasn't a legit target?
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Sep 10, 2009 - 10:31pm PT
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hey there, say, john moosie... oh my....
:(
thank you for sharing about your wonderful and dear friend...
we are richer, too, now, for knowing him....
may your memories continue to be special and not hurt so deep, and yet--never fade....
god bless to you this night...
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GDavis
Trad climber
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Sep 10, 2009 - 10:35pm PT
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Doesn't part of you want to fast forward fifty years and see if these discussions have changed at all?
oh well. You know where I stand on things, I'm guessing. A big mess, all of it.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Sep 10, 2009 - 10:37pm PT
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Your point implies Fiction means that it didn't happen?
Read it and read the intro. then you tell me.
didn't say it wasn't a target. The murder of the civilian children in Nagaski and Hiroshimia and indirectly my own father, aren't exonerated by the fact that those cities were 'targets', either.
Manzanar is a bit hard to justify, as well.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Sep 10, 2009 - 10:37pm PT
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Blue it again.
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midarockjock
climber
USA
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Sep 10, 2009 - 10:46pm PT
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Interesting bluering. I started a classic metal thread that maybe
somewhat relevant here. I was also thinking about these issues.
http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=civ&group=00001-01000&file=43-53
43.5. No cause of action arises for:
(b) Criminal conversation.
Adultery is included here, as it's been ruled a criminal act.
A President was allegedly impeached for the above, and refused to
leave. A joint venture between Fanny Mae, Sally Mae and the DoD
was reported around this time also. Subsequently the Pentagon
news reported that payloads of missiles were going to be armed
with aphrodisiacs to induce acts of homosexuality among enemy
targets.
Perhaps the US had a morality breakdown with unlawful joint
ventures which by law do bring liability against the US?
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Sep 10, 2009 - 10:51pm PT
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Ward Churchill was more right than wrong,
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sully
Trad climber
CA
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Sep 10, 2009 - 10:56pm PT
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Jaybro's right. Read Slaughterhouse Five. Dresden was a dirty little secret and Vonnegut brought it to light. "And so it goes." Japanese internment at Manzanar was inexcusable too.
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Bboi
Trad climber
San Francisco
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Sep 10, 2009 - 11:01pm PT
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Peace
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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Sep 10, 2009 - 11:06pm PT
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we digress.
Peace indeed.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Sep 10, 2009 - 11:09pm PT
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Yeah, it's definitely the Jooos fault, at least in part, if only Hitler woulda finished them all off, AND we never developed oilfields for the rat-F*#k Saudis, everything would be harmonious nowadays.
Come to think of it, it is all the fault of US and the Brits. We liberated the Jews and developed those awful oilfields for the rotten SandPeople. F*#k the West!!!! Buncha money hungry rats!
Ward Churchill is totally right on, man.
It's all coming to me now. If only....
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno
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Sep 10, 2009 - 11:10pm PT
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"We also warned Afghanistan and Iraq. They gambled too.
warned them about what? Cornform to our ways and beliefs or we will come and destroy ur country and kill u? Wow! That sounds great. I'm so proud to be a part of that. Not!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Sep 10, 2009 - 11:12pm PT
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Yep, the Afghanis were given like 10 days to fork over Bin Laden.
Saddam had 3 days to relinquish power and get out.
Both gave us the finger, both went down.
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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Sep 10, 2009 - 11:15pm PT
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blue - where does pointing out a known mossad involvement, documenting by Fox and others, suddenly warrant the slander and teh hitler thing ?
I'd like to just stick to the known facts please...
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Sep 10, 2009 - 11:22pm PT
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Are you going to tell me the Mossad was behind the 1st bombing too?
KSM was a Mossad agent? The planner.
So you are saying the Jews did it?
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Sep 10, 2009 - 11:23pm PT
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"Yeah, it's definitely the Jooos fault, at least in part, if only Hitler woulda finished them all off, AND we never developed oilfields for the rat-F*#k Saudis, everything would be harmonious nowadays.
Come to think of it, it is all the fault of US and the Brits. We liberated the Jews and developed those awful oilfields for the rotten SandPeople. F*#k the West!!!! Buncha money hungry rats!
Ward Churchill is totally right on, man.
It's all coming to me now. If only...."
............
Blue, why do you immediate go to the extreme of thinking that if we aren't completely innocent, then we must be completely guilty. That is black and white thinking. I think it is better to take a hard look at the things America has done wrong, so we can better understand why people hate us and perhaps stop doing certain things so that we have a better chance of avoiding future terrorist attacks.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Sep 10, 2009 - 11:26pm PT
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Peace, now.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Sep 10, 2009 - 11:32pm PT
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I remember the story, Pagan, but it don't jive....Think about ALL the other evidence that contadicts that.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Sep 10, 2009 - 11:32pm PT
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Gil Scott-Heron:Work For Peace,
http://vodpod.com/watch/622149-gil-scott-heron-work-for-peace
Back when Eisenhower was the President,
Golf courses was where most of his time was spent.
So I never really listened to what the President said,
Because in general I believed that the General was politically dead.
But he always seemed to know when the muscles were about to be flexed,
Because I remember him saying something, mumbling something about a Military Industrial Complex.
Americans no longer fight to keep their shores safe,
Just to keep the jobs going in the arms making workplace.
Then they pretend to be gripped by some sort of political reflex,
But all they're doing is paying dues to the Military Industrial Complex.
The Military and the Monetary,
The Military and the Monetary,
The Military and the Monetary.
The Military and the Monetary,
get together whenever they think its necessary,
They turn our brothers and sisters into mercenaries, they are turning the planet into a cemetery.
The Military and the Monetary, use the media as intermediaries,
they are determined to keep the citizens secondary, they make so many decisions that are arbitrary.
We're marching behind a commander in chief,
who is standing under a spotlight shaking like a leaf.
but the ship of state had landed on an economic reef,
so we knew he was going to bring us messages of grief.
The Military and the Monetary,
were shielded by January and went storming into February,
Brought us pot bellied generals as luminaries,
two weeks ago I hadn't heard of the son of a bitch,
now all of a sudden he's legendary.
They took the honour from the honourary,
they took the dignity from the dignitaries,
they took the secrets from the secretary,
but they left the bitch an obituary.
The Military and the Monetary,
from thousands of miles away in a Saudi Arabian sanctuary,
had us all scrambling for our dictionaries,
cause we couldn't understand the f*#kin vocabulary.
Yeah, there was some smart bombs,
but there was some dumb ones as well,
scared the hell out of CNN in that Baghdad hotel.
The Military and the Monetary,
they get together whenever they think its necessary,
War in the desert sometimes sure is scary,
but they beamed out the war to all their subsidiaries.
Tried to make So Damn Insane a worthy adversary,
keeping the citizens secondary,
scaring old folks into coronaries.
The Military and the Monetary,
from thousands of miles in a Saudi Arabian sanctuary,
kept us all wondering if all of this was really truely, necessary.
We've got to work for Peace,
Peace ain't coming this way.
If we only work for Peace,
If everyone believed in Peace the way they say they do,
we'd have Peace.
The only thing wrong with Peace,
is that you can't make no money from it.
The Military and the Monetary,
they get together whenever they think its necessary,
they've turned our brothers and sisters into mercenaries,
they are turning the planet, into a cemetery.
Got to work for Peace,
Peace ain't coming this way.
We should not allow ourselves to be mislead,
by talk of entering a time of Peace,
Peace is not the absence of war,
it is the absence of the rules of war and the threats of war and the preparation for war.
Peace is not the absence of war,
it is the time when we will all bring ourselves closer to each other,
closer to building a structure that is unique within ourselves
because we have finally come to Peace within ourselves.
The Military and the Monetary,
The Military and the Monetary,
The Military and the Monetary.
Get together whenever they think its necessary,
they've turned our brothers and sisters into mercenaries,
they are turning parts of the planet, into a cemetery.
The Military and the Monetary,
The Military and the Monetary,
We hounded the Ayatollah religiously,
Bombed Libya and killed Quadafi's son hideously.
We turned our back on our allies the Panamanians,
and saw Ollie North selling guns to the Iranians.
Watched Gorbachev slaughtering Lithuanians,
We better warn the Amish,
they may bomb the Pennsylvanians.
The Military and the Monetary,
get together whenever they think its necessary,
they have turned our brothers and sisters into mercenaries,
they are turning the planet, into a cemetery.
I don't want to sound like no late night commercial,
but its a matter of fact that there are thousands of children all over the world
in Asia and Africa and in South America who need our help.
When they start talking about 55 cents a day and 70 cents a day,
I know a lot of folks feel as though that,
thats not really any kind of contribution to make,
but we had to give up a dollar and a half just to get in the subway nowadays.
So this is a song about tommorrow and about how tommorrow can be better. if we all,
"Each one reach one, Each one try to teach one".
Nobody can do everything,
but everybody can do something,
everyone must play a part,
everyone got to go to work, Work for Peace.
Spirit Say Work, Work for Peace
If you believe the things you say, go to work.
If you believe in Peace, time to go to work.
Cant be wavin your head no more, go to work.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 11, 2009 - 12:04am PT
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It just goes to show that if attack the United States and kill thousands of innocent people you will unleash the dogs of War.
Top Secret info deleted.
Juan
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
Boise....
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Sep 11, 2009 - 12:05am PT
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Let's discuss those....There are some dams around that must go.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Sep 11, 2009 - 12:09am PT
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Hats off to my brothers who died that day.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Sep 11, 2009 - 12:29am PT
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Munge abides 9/11
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 11, 2009 - 01:07am PT
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Go to Turkey. They Love Americans. I spent 3 weeks in Turkey and they loved me. Best trip of my life. Saw the Total Eclipse under perfect conditions. Stayed in a 5 star hotel for @200 Dollars a night with the best Turkish Bath on the planet.
Juan
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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Sep 11, 2009 - 01:44am PT
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A salute to all that passed that day, and to all that have fallen since in an effort to right such a wrong. So much sorrow.
A black day in USA history for sure.
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up2top
Big Wall climber
Phoenix, AZ
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Sep 11, 2009 - 02:35am PT
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This thread is just more evidence that convinces me that we may eventually be taking up arms against each other. The chasm between our ideological viewpoints is growing exponentially. It's sad. We used to have a lot more in common than we had differences. Not any longer.
Ed
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Sep 11, 2009 - 09:28am PT
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If you really want to honor the tragic loss and suffering of the survivors you would demand the truth!
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Dick_Lugar
Trad climber
Indiana (the other Mideast)
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Sep 11, 2009 - 10:49am PT
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What's incredulous to me is that up until 9/11 we were so f#cking naive as a country to think we would not be targeted by terrorists using our own airplanes!!!
And what type of security did our government and the airline industry have in place that allowed four planes to be simultaneously hijcacked by boxcutters, I ask YOU!!!! Up until then we had:
1. No locks on the cockpit doors.
2. Piss poor airline security paying people minimum wage.
And that equals total negligence on the part of:
1. Our government
2. The Airline industry (edit: and their parasitic lobbyists!!)
Then our f#cking response is not to look within and see how our own negligence led to this catostrophe, but strike out and attack two countries, kill countless more people on both side, spend trillions, and what have we really accomplished???
OK, rant over...
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bluNgoldhornet6
Big Wall climber
Tampa, Fl
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Sep 11, 2009 - 11:06am PT
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I dont know about the rest of us, but i am a little dissapointed that it almost seems that we have forgoten how important this day is. I woke up this morning thinking that we would get to see all day specials reliving that fateful day.I go to turn on the T.V. and could not believe that the History Channel was the only one showing something. Yes, i do understand that some would rather forget and focus on where we are at today, but for the last 8yrs i have almost made it a ritual to rewatch and remember what happenend on Sept 11, 2001.
Apperantly we have not all forgot and it was great to see this post was already up and running.
Never Forget and Lets focus on the great things to come!
GOD Bless
Matt
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Esparza
Trad climber
Westminster, CA
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Sep 11, 2009 - 11:08am PT
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Kind of related.... Any of you read the "33 Strategies of War" By Robert Greene? Interesting how todays events are modern times of the past.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Sep 11, 2009 - 11:20am PT
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This would be a good time to momentarily drop the politics ( I know, i'm more guilty than most) and kind of meditate on the lives lost that day, and consequently.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Sep 11, 2009 - 11:36am PT
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Yeah, what Jaybro said....
Many families here and abroad have lost people in their lives. Mothers, fathers, sons and daughters.
God bless them.
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F10
Trad climber
e350
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Sep 11, 2009 - 12:06pm PT
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343 RIP my brothers
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 11, 2009 - 12:10pm PT
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In English, the dogs of war is a phrase from line 270, scene 1, Act III of William Shakespeare's Julius Caesar: "Cry 'Havoc!', and let slip the dogs of war" referring to releasing the "dog", i.e. the restraining mechanism, which has been preventing war. It is frequently incorrectly quoted as referring to canine "dogs" .
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 11, 2009 - 12:14pm PT
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 11, 2009 - 12:19pm PT
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Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once
more, Or close the wall up with our English dead!
In peace there's nothing so becomes a man As
modest stillness and humility; But when the blast
of war blows in our ears, Then imitate the action
of the tiger: Stiffen the sinews, summon up the
blood.
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AbeFrohman
Trad climber
new york, NY
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Sep 11, 2009 - 12:28pm PT
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you people make me freakin sick. why can't y'all just show some love.
in memory of those that died on 9/11.
thats IT.
no one is asking for a political diatribe, we all know (as you've told us COUNTLESS times) how much you hate bush & co, that it was or wasn't an inside job, etc.
save the rhetoric for as many other threads as you, as#@&%es.
RIP.
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dirtbag
climber
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Sep 11, 2009 - 12:29pm PT
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They're the puppies of yap, not the dogs of war. They're too busy leg humping.
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dirtbag
climber
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Sep 11, 2009 - 12:41pm PT
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Why don't you give it a rest instead, you windbag.
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dirtbag
climber
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Sep 11, 2009 - 12:43pm PT
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And btw, your right wing buddies did a fine job of using it for political purposes. I bet you didn't object back then.
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apogee
climber
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Sep 11, 2009 - 12:45pm PT
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"They're the puppies of yap, not the dogs of war. They're too busy leg humping."
That's some funny shite!
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franky
climber
Davis, CA
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Sep 11, 2009 - 01:09pm PT
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It isn't about not feeling sad for those people who lost their lives in 9/11 for such INCREDIBLY STUPID reasons.
It is the nationalistic fervor that gets tied to those deaths that is so repulsive. People die in horrible events all the time, we've killed hundreds of thousands more innocents than middle eastern terrorists ever have. It is the idea that those 3,000 people in the world trade center were somehow more valuable than Iraqis, Germans, Japanese, Afghans, or any other people on the face of the earth.
It is the fact that their deaths are celebrated with American flag waving, why in the f*#k would anyone wave an American flag to celebrate those deaths. It is nationalism, religion, and racism that got those people killed in the first place, and people wave one of the great banners of those concepts to celebrate their deaths? repulsive.
Sorry to those who died, and those who have died because they died. What a horrible day.
Edit: Also, sorry to those who haven't died, but have suffered terribly because of those events.
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wally
Trad climber
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Sep 11, 2009 - 01:23pm PT
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Thanks to everyone that has shared there stories. And condolences to all the victims. That being said:
Am i the only one that realizes and can see that IT IS PHYSICALLY IMPOSIBLE FOR ONE JET TO TAKE DOWN A BUILDING OF THAT MAGNATUDE? Let alone 3 buildings?
Furthermore: 3 buildings falling the exact same way in the same manner exactly? Probability dictats that this is impossible in a random instance (like a plane hitting a building). impossible. The chances of this happening is like lightening hitting the same place 1000000 times in a week.
Out of 300 million people nobody can prove this bring this out exspose who or what organizations are responsible for the death of thousands that day. The victims deserve the truth as do the rest of us.
I really think that more americans should drop there bibles and pick up a text book and learn something. Stop watching Fox news and start watching bbc or something. Don't let the powers that really run your country to win this time.
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
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Sep 11, 2009 - 02:13pm PT
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Right on Tami. WTC7 is the gun that smokes the most. Sometimes, even the propaganda conditioned can see through that one. But most "educated" Americans have never even heard of that building.
Arne
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dirt claud
Sport climber
san diego,ca
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Sep 11, 2009 - 02:49pm PT
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Hmm, something big is coming soon. The divide between us is just getting wider and wider.
It just shows the mentality of the liberal mind that Juan would come on here and start a thread to remember those who died a tragic unnecessary death and just pay our respects and we get a bunch of so called "compassionate,caring" liberals talking crap about the U.S. and the "past" administration. Wow!!,way to show your big heart for fellow man guys and ladies. You have selfishness and ignorance in your hearts you keep proving it to us all the time. Nobody asked what you thought about Bush or the past administration or who's fault it was. You sellfish, careless people. Keep living your lives of ignorant bliss and stop talking to us about examples in history that have no relevance to the subject we don't just read history, we study it and learn from it.
Oh, but you have a bumper stickers that proclaim your Green and you care about the enviornment and freeing Tibet and ending violence in Africa. So that must mean you care more about the world and people than the rest of us. I haven't met or been around anybody who thought violence and a messed up enviornment was good, so cheers to you for being so special.
Hope we can start getting along soon and realize it's the government who is taking over and becoming our enemy.
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dirtbag
climber
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Sep 11, 2009 - 02:52pm PT
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dirt claud: YOU LIE!!!
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dirt claud
Sport climber
san diego,ca
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Sep 11, 2009 - 02:56pm PT
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good one dirt bag, and I lie because?
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apogee
climber
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Sep 11, 2009 - 03:46pm PT
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dirt claud, let me put it another way:
YOU LIE!
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WandaFuca
Gym climber
A survey where 68% preferred this Fuca over others
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Sep 11, 2009 - 03:47pm PT
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Keep living your lives of ignorant bliss and stop talking to us about examples in history that have no relevance to the subject we don't just read history, we study it and learn from it.
Speaking of ignorant bliss. History is rife with examples of leaders using tragedies as an excuse to misdirect the populace into going along with an agenda/war that had nothing to do with the original tragedy.
9/11 was a tragedy. The invasion of Iraq was a travesty.
We obviously don't learn, because we let those sacks of sh!t take a tragedy and use it, in our names, for their own selfish purposes, to commit violence against the innocent, which many continue to be blind to because, hey, we MUST be God's chosen people, and so we just couldn't eeeever do anything wrong and even if we did (which we didn't) they must've had it coming because, hey, we're God's chosen people and they're not.
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midarockjock
climber
USA
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Sep 11, 2009 - 03:51pm PT
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There is no vicarious liability under US law the last I checked, so with
the president you seem correct. Joint ventures, however can attach
liability to an entire US dept. or component.
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midarockjock
climber
USA
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Sep 11, 2009 - 03:54pm PT
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However,
it appears the US violated their own military laws and are currently
doing so now as reported by the news, due to the statutory time
frame allowed for war.
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dave goodwin
climber
carson city, nv
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Sep 11, 2009 - 04:43pm PT
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"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double edge sword. It both emoboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what i have done. and I am Caesar."
Has history repeated itself?
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Roman
Trad climber
Boston
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Sep 11, 2009 - 04:45pm PT
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I was about 1/2 mile from the pentagon when it was hit ... I was working in news as well and feared the worst minutes after the towers were hit only to have my fears justified... HOWEVER to anyone who thinks we didnt bring this on ourselves by training them all in the dark arts of guerrilla war in the name of cold war with the USSR (Afghanistan) is only BELIEVING FALLACIES AND HALF TRUTHS IN THE NAME OF POLITICAL ALIGNMENT. To anyone supporting Bush's response or any of the preliminaries leading up to it I say 'FOR SHAME'. 9-11 is more our fault than anyone would like to admit.
In Afghan. they fire M-16's (as the majority) as well as a paultry number of AK's at us. Where did they come from????
I have nothing against repubs but those who sympathize with the CIA operative driven legacy of 2 generations of Bush's... You can all kiss my ass.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Sep 11, 2009 - 04:52pm PT
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I have a lot of sympathy for Juan's opening post.
While the politics are quite diverse, really they should all have been posted in some other thread.
It is a descent and even important thought to memorialize those who did die as a result of the actions on 9/11/01. Many of them died in heroic acts of selflessness trying to help others.
Many left families and friends now bereft of husbands, wives, fathers, mothers, sons, daughters.
Whatever you make of the cause and reasons, those who died no longer care, it doesn't matter to them, they never knew what became of the nation, the world, afterwards.
But I think we must remember them.
Thanks for you opening post, Juan, it is too bad it didn't go in a positive direction.
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BrianH
Trad climber
santa fe
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Sep 11, 2009 - 04:55pm PT
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History repeats itself
Coiling down into the future
When it's one second to twelve
The hands touch and follow deeper
History repeats itself
I didn't learn, I wouldn't listen
I couldn't see the books were on the shelf
For my good sense, I never missed 'em
Wish I was standing by the shore
Feel the wind blow in my face
See the waves roll in for an encore
They take a bow, they know their place
I do not want, I do not feel
I've turned away in myself
I can't find anything that's real
But history repeats itself
"History Repeats Itself" FROM AOL, soundtrack of "Natural Born Killers"
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Roman
Trad climber
Boston
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Sep 11, 2009 - 05:17pm PT
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Ed,
I completely agree and didi not mean to take away from their memory in the least. So many many heroes of the highest degree showed their merit in those fleeting moment and are true patriots and valiant human beings.
However this isn't Juan's first post about this and as much as I believe in your own (personal) care about this I can assure you that he is only trying to rile and incense people to argue with him. It's his MO and as a lurker I have seen it a thousand times over. It is NOT OK. But he doesnt care. I am sorry if I seem to have misrepresented my feelings. But he is a troll of the highest degree.
Anyway, you are right. reverence IS called for and I shall give it.
-
Roman
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Roman
Trad climber
Boston
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Sep 11, 2009 - 05:34pm PT
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If that's the case (as I am totally unaware of anything within his personal life) then I digress and apologize. I am only speaking from past experience over the years. I understand that we all do grow in such ways and wish not to condemn him in the way that I did. If he has changed in the way you say then he has grown as a man and citizen (albeit of the internet, I guess) and I respect that.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Sep 11, 2009 - 06:33pm PT
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As I said before; If you really want to honor the dead and the survivors you would DEMAND THE TRUTH!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Sep 11, 2009 - 06:37pm PT
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they can be honored and remembered for what they did independent of the cause
the only truth that matters to this thread, in my opinion, is the fact of their deaths
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Sep 11, 2009 - 06:38pm PT
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Thanks, Ed, for your posts. They're right on target. This thread isn't the one for casting blame. There's another one approaching 10,000 posts that would do just fine for that. Today we simply remember those who -- not being in any way knowing participants in any great game -- lost their lives eight years ago.
John
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Sep 11, 2009 - 06:53pm PT
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Would you be including the well over 100,000 souls lost in Iraq and Afghanistan in that solemn remembrance? Or just the ones on US soil? Will you hold the same sacred vigil for the anniversary of the Indian OceanTsunami of 2004? How about the Hurricane Katrina victims? Do stand in silence every anniversary for the dead of Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building bombing. How about the victims of the earthquake that struck the Chinese city of Shaanzi in 1556? It is considered the worst natural disaster of all known history likely to have taken the lives of 830,000 people.
Why they died and what can be learned from it to avoid repeating mistakes is more pertinent than that they died!
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Sep 11, 2009 - 07:07pm PT
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So Lois do you fall silent and stand in solidarity every April 19th?
That is the date in 1995 that American war hero Timothy McVeigh murdered a bunch of innocent American citizens in Oklahoma City. Does that one count too?
Being willingly blind to the truth serves no ones interests but the perpetrators.
Or should I say purposeful traitors? So wave your flag and wring the angst out of your wretched fearful lives all you want. But to not want to know WHY is beyond my grasp.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Sep 11, 2009 - 07:52pm PT
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Really Lois. McV was a product of our training in much the same way as the Muhajadin and Taliban were/are.
In the long run Lois "the mechanics" as you put it mean little or nothing, dead is dead. What matters is the TRUTH. The WHY of it, and how to not repeat the same mistakes.
Why don't you care for the truth? Are you afraid?
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WandaFuca
Gym climber
A survey where 68% preferred this Fuca over others
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Sep 12, 2009 - 01:43pm PT
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Cragman,
Sure thing, but I don't get why you would want to send me to a communist country.
But, hey, I like to travel.
And you send me your mailing address too, so I can give you a ticket to some countries where no dissent of nationalism and patriotic fervor is allowed.
I'll start by sending you to North Korea and Iran where those "we can do no wrong" and "if you're not with us, you're against us" attitudes you demonstrate are rigidly enforced; you'll fit right in.
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WandaFuca
Gym climber
A survey where 68% preferred this Fuca over others
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Sep 12, 2009 - 02:02pm PT
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Lois,
You're still Dick & George's little ventriloquist dummy. After eight years of getting fisted up the azz by Dick & George you'd think some sense might get knocked into your wooden head.
Bending over for jihadists???? Oh, yeah, riiight, you really think that's why we opposed going into Iraq? Oh, that's right, you can't think, can you?
(edit)
Jihadist Communist Gulags???????????????????????///
ROTFLMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111111
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WandaFuca
Gym climber
A survey where 68% preferred this Fuca over others
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Sep 12, 2009 - 03:53pm PT
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^ ^ ^
The idiocy in the above posts by Lois and Cragman is breathtaking and strains my ability to parody.
Some wily demagogic rhetoricians use straw man arguments to misdirect and win over an audience of idiots.
They should tell Lois and Cragman, "don't try this at home."
Because when the audience goes on SuperTopo and tries to make their own arguments, it's like they're trying to stab someone with the handle of a knife while holding it by the blade.
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midarockjock
climber
USA
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Sep 14, 2009 - 01:48pm PT
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Regards:: My above statements with added clarity.
The news(LA Times) reported we have been at war with Afghanistan
for 10 years. The last I checked this would be unlawful by USC, and
the US would be breaching their own war laws.
Nancy Pelosi in USA today over this previous weekend reported aid
needs to be reduced in Afghanistan.
This latter makes more sense as I was not aware of a war in
Afghanistan, however many including myself don't care for
forced help, forced or otherwise volunteer programs without
pay or forced welfare etc. programs.
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