Discussion Topic |
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| Messages 1 - 92 of total 92 in this topic |
Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 26, 2009 - 01:31am PT
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BREAKING: c/o DeFuca News Network
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matty
climber
po-dunk
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Aug 26, 2009 - 01:35am PT
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Brain Cancer.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Aug 26, 2009 - 01:39am PT
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RIP, Mary Jo...
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Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
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Aug 26, 2009 - 01:54am PT
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We have lost a smart senator and a fine American. RIP Teddy.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Aug 26, 2009 - 01:55am PT
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A great American, who spent 40 years atoning for whatever he did or didn't do at Chappaquiddick.
Are you serious? "What he did or didn't do"?????????1111
ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!1111
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marv
Mountain climber
Bay Area
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Aug 26, 2009 - 01:57am PT
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check out the wiki footnote to his death
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Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
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Aug 26, 2009 - 01:58am PT
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What do you think happened HK?
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WandaFuca
Gym climber
A survey where 68% preferred this Fuca over others
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Aug 26, 2009 - 02:00am PT
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A great American. A great senator. Willing to reach across the aisle to do what was right for the people.
As he said at the time, his irresponsible actions were indefensible. But that incident did not in any way define the man, instead it was a long history of responsibility and trying to make the world a better place.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Aug 26, 2009 - 02:02am PT
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Mtnmun - Drunk assed, silver-spooned fratboy crashed and left his date for dead?
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WandaFuca
Gym climber
A survey where 68% preferred this Fuca over others
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Aug 26, 2009 - 02:06am PT
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HK,
I'm sorry for your loss. Your sincere grief over the loss of Mary Jo is truly touching.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Aug 26, 2009 - 02:08am PT
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WandaFuca - your cynicism is appalling.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Aug 26, 2009 - 02:11am PT
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Anyway, since when does Russ start political threads?
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apogee
climber
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Aug 26, 2009 - 02:12am PT
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Truly a momentous event in politics, and the end of an era. It's a shame that Chappaquiddick overshadowed a man's 40 year effort to help improve the lives of Americans through a basic need like healthcare.
RIP, Teddy.
Edit:
"But while the White House eluded his grasp, the longtime Massachusetts senator was considered one of the most effective legislators of the past few decades. Kennedy, who became known as the "Lion of the Senate," played major roles in passage of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, the Voting Rights Act of 1965, the 1990 Americans with Disabilities Act and the 1993 Family and Medical Leave Act, and was an outspoken liberal standard-bearer during a conservative-dominated era from the 1980s to the early 2000s."
http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/08/26/obit.ted.kennedy/
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Ray-J
Social climber
east L.A. vato...
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Aug 26, 2009 - 02:23am PT
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Oh, - he was punished for Chappaquidick,
Maybe knott overtly or formally...but I do not think
He ever forgave himself.
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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Aug 26, 2009 - 02:27am PT
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Most certainly the end of an era. When all is said and done, Ted will be remembered as the Kennedy who had the greatest lasting influence on American politics.
Curt
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jstan
climber
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Aug 26, 2009 - 02:28am PT
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Hardman. Tell us what you would have done.
You have, on occasion had too much alcohol, I presume.
We need to know what we should do after a DUI when we hit a car and someone is badly hurt?
You have of your own volition stepped up on the stage.
Now let's hear it.
Edit:
Just tell us what you would do.
And that will be the end of it.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Aug 26, 2009 - 02:34am PT
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I had really hoped that he would make some miracle comeback in time to get the public option out of committee and passed on the floor but I guess I was dreaming. Thanks Ted for all your hard work, your comedic shenanigans and for being part of what makes America America.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Aug 26, 2009 - 02:42am PT
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jstan - have you been drinking tonight?
Nobody "hit a car". The drunken bastard drove off the road - into the water, and LEFT HIS DATE FOR DEAD.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Aug 26, 2009 - 02:50am PT
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We'll never know exactly what happened that night, but HK has pretty much summarized it. Adding to which, Kennedy may not have been held fully legally accountable for his actions and inactions, although he paid a high price in public and news media criticism. All like so many other sons of rich and famous families, of all stripes.
It may have been the event that made him the senator he became.
In an interesting parallel, last week William Calley publicly apologized for his actions at My Lai, for which he was court martialled. It was the first time since 1969 that he's spoken about what he did.
Atonement is a very difficult thing.
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jstan
climber
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Aug 26, 2009 - 02:50am PT
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OK HK.
I got your message.
That's the end of it
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Aug 26, 2009 - 02:50am PT
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RIP Ted
He was one guy who I felt really cared to help people, all the people. THe list of legislation posted above speaks for itself. He was a rich guy indeed but not one to be a pawn.
PEace
Karl
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Ray-J
Social climber
east L.A. vato...
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Aug 26, 2009 - 02:51am PT
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evidence at the time indicating he made no effort to rescue Maryjo...true.
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 26, 2009 - 02:52am PT
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At least he reported the accident as quickly as possible.....
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Aug 26, 2009 - 03:05am PT
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Okay so he was the 'Shemp' of the Kennedys, (thank you Sam Kinnison) but he did a lot of good.
Bill Roberts, fa of Best of the Blues, and my good friend was taken by complications from brain cancer. Not a good way to go.
Thanks, Ted.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Aug 26, 2009 - 03:05am PT
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"This all started with the Kennedys;".......(I know I always make fun of the Kennedys and their democratic ways of thinking, and that car crash and all;...made Ted an easy target; plus it's easy to make fun of "big" people...but I was always impressed with the things Ted said about being of service and speaking out for people and representing people fairly and justly;......I'm not too political; I just usually vote for all the pro education candidates....which are usually the candidates that lose;....probably one of the reasons why education is presently in the toilet;...anyways;....rest in peace, Ted;....I will probably keep on making fun of the Kennedys....("Smoking pot in the White House, sleeping with movie stars, and giving all our hard earned money to the crack heads on welfare...").....you got my vote for being a politician who really and truly seemed to care about people and being of service to the public;....I believe a rarity among politicians.....
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Aug 26, 2009 - 03:07am PT
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Russ Walling wrote:
At least he reported the accident as quickly as possible.....
ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!1111
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Aug 26, 2009 - 03:34am PT
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"Russ Walling wrote:
At least he reported the accident as quickly as possible..... "
Unlike Dick Cheney after he shot that lawyer in the face while drunk.
Funny how one sin sticks and other is forgotton, perhaps just cause Dick wasn't shooting straight
peace
karl
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Aug 26, 2009 - 03:36am PT
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Karl - you been drinking tonight?
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Nohea
Trad climber
Sunny Aiea,Hi
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Aug 26, 2009 - 05:56am PT
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I respect the man for serving the country and for being honest in areas where others have not. He said socialism was the best government in his mind. Sorry he was born here in the home of the Free, he would have been fantastic in Europe.
Rest in Peace Comrade.
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Prod
Trad climber
A place w/o Avitars apparently
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Aug 26, 2009 - 07:46am PT
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I've never understood the love affair with the Kennedy's. Seems dangerous to me when we Iconize political figures/ families, on both sides of this silly political continuum.
RIP Ted.
Prod.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Aug 26, 2009 - 08:27am PT
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As far as serving his country, he was a very good politician, who many on the opposing bench said that he was easy to get along with and bipartisan.
Hardman, I do not know what to make of you sometimes. If you hate the Kennedy's that is your choice. Sad though. Of course you have never gotten behind the wheel intoxicated, have you.
The guy f*cked up and a person paid their live for his screw up. But, as said earlier, atonement can be difficult.
And HK, twice on this thread you have tried to ridicule people by saying "have you been drinking" just because you do not agree with them. Look in the mirror pal, and BTW I do not know you but you seem like a good man from your posts and other people's comments. I do not want to get into a flaming war with you, but IMO you sort of stepped over the bounds. Think about it.
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sully
Trad climber
CA
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Aug 26, 2009 - 09:21am PT
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I liked how Ted took John John and Caroline under his wing after JFKs death. I feel for the guy since he was also an Irish Catholic American. He died of alcoholism which eats away at the brain. A shout out to Patrick Sawyer, you lucky dog for living in the old country. Sinn Fein!
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Aug 26, 2009 - 11:14am PT
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RIP Edward. The family really has paid a huge price for public service.
Bobby Kennedy was one of personal heroes....this really is the end of a era for those of us born in the 40's and 50's.
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fluffy
Trad climber
boulder
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Aug 26, 2009 - 11:30am PT
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events like this make it rather easy to figure out what people are all about.
ted kennedy wasn't perfect, he was human. but he spent his life trying to make this country and the world a better place. civil rights, health care, voting rights, advocating for the disabled...just a little of what he accomplished.
and the mouthbreathers can only talk about his drunken (((incident)))
who among us hasn't made a mistake?
and who among us has done more for his fellow human?
RIP
(btw nohea we have many 'socialist' institutions here in the 'land of the free' try to keep up)
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Aug 26, 2009 - 11:31am PT
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We still have our contemporary Maria, Bob. I'd like to think she's working behind the scenes on that recactionary Ahnold.
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Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
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Aug 26, 2009 - 11:42am PT
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"But quality care shouldn't depend on your financial resources, or the type of job you have, or the medical condition you face. Every American should be able to get the same treatment..." Ted Kennedy
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Prod
Trad climber
A place w/o Avitars apparently
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Aug 26, 2009 - 11:44am PT
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Karl etal,
Just because Dick Chaney shot his friend in the face and did not report it promptly does not make it OK for Ted to leave the scene of a crime. Also just because I've driven drunk, does not make it OK for Ted to abandon MJ.
I noticed those 2 arguments in this thread, and do not feel that they are legitimate arguments.
Prod.
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apogee
climber
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Aug 26, 2009 - 11:51am PT
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Man, some of you Repugs are really showing your 'compassionate' stripes on this one. Give it a rest, at least for a couple of days, huh?
Kind of reminds me of the comments Onyx made- while they held some truth in them, the timing was appallingly bad, and just made Onyx look like an a**hole.
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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Aug 26, 2009 - 11:55am PT
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With the help of Senator Ted the world is a better place.
Rest in Peace, sir.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Aug 26, 2009 - 11:56am PT
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jstan wrote:
Hardman. Tell us what you would have done.
You have, on occasion had too much alcohol, I presume.
We need to know what we should do after a DUI when we hit a car and someone is badly hurt?
You have of your own volition stepped up on the stage.
Now let's hear it.
Edit:
Just tell us what you would do.
And that will be the end of it.
First of all, I do KNOTT drive drunk, so I guess "that's the end of it". ;-)
However, I can't possibly imagine driving into the water with a passenger, and just walking away and leaving my
passenger for dead (presumably to avoid getting a DUI). I'm pretty sure it was revealed that divers found a sizable
air-bubble inside the car, and that Mary Jo could have survived for some time. But the bastard chose to "sleep it off".
Rationalize any way you wish, but it was an incredibly shameful act, and that's the end it.
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TKingsbury
Trad climber
MT
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Aug 26, 2009 - 11:58am PT
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apogee
climber
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Aug 26, 2009 - 12:21pm PT
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OK, you're right, HMK. Now will you shut up?
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goatboy smellz
climber
लघिमा, co
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Aug 26, 2009 - 12:24pm PT
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Aww Tom that picture cracks me up every time you post it.
okbye
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Aug 26, 2009 - 12:47pm PT
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The Kennedy Family. What other family in America has given so much to America?
Try saying the Bush family, and that would make a great joke that I think even diehard Repbulicans would have to laugh at.
The Kennedy's fought for the common man, the Bushs have fought for big money and big oil.
Big difference.
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Jingy
Social climber
Flatland, Ca
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Aug 26, 2009 - 01:01pm PT
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and?
seems to me the machine would continue...
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Aug 26, 2009 - 01:30pm PT
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To anyone who is actually interested in the man instead of merely some glorified myth, here's a fascinating account in an old Time article (Time is hardly a part of the "right wing conspiracy.")
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,972845-4,00.html
It's balanced and on the whole positive.
But I believe if TK really had true remorse for his actions in Chappaquiddick , he would have stopped drinking. He did anything but that. Here's a typical quote from the article:
"Kennedy's face sometimes looks flushed and mottled, with the classic alcoholic signs of burst capillaries, puffiness and gin-roses of the drunk. Sometimes he simply looks like hell -- fat, dissolute, aging, fuddled. But his powers of recuperation are amazing. He has, when he needs it, an organizing inner discipline that allows him, by an act of sheer will, to pull himself together, to focus and resume a senatorial, Kennedy star quality."
We all screw up--some of us worse than others and often the consequences are a matter of mere chance. But if an average person did what TK did, he would get and deserve a lengthy prison sentence, no question about it. Funny how so many of you criticize Bush for using his family connections get where he got, while Kennedy used his connections to avoid a life in the penn.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Aug 26, 2009 - 05:17pm PT
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Prod wrote,
"Just because Dick Chaney shot his friend in the face and did not report it promptly does not make it OK for Ted to leave the scene of a crime. Also just because I've driven drunk, does not make it OK for Ted to abandon MJ.
I noticed those 2 arguments in this thread, and do not feel that they are legitimate arguments."
I don't think that was Karl's point. I think his point is that Dick screwed up, broke the law, and didn't pay, yet the right forgave him and allowed him to move on.
......................
HK wrote,
"However, I can't possibly imagine driving into the water with a passenger, and just walking away and leaving my
passenger for dead (presumably to avoid getting a DUI). I'm pretty sure it was revealed that divers found a sizable
air-bubble inside the car, and that Mary Jo could have survived for some time. But the bastard chose to "sleep it off".
Yes, most of us can't imagine leaving a person to die. Yet you use presumptions in your statement. You presume he was aware when he left the car and wasn't concussed or too drunk to know that he left someone in the vehicle. What if Ted saved himself and then passed out from a concussion? What if in his concussed state he forgot there even was a girl, and just went home.
All of these scenerios have happened to people who have had concussions. They forget who they were with. They wander off and then head home, Not being aware of what they did just before the concussion.
Replace concussion with drunk and you get the same answers, though he would have been lying about not being drunk. I figure he was probably lying about being drunk. I have no idea about the rest. I figure Dick Cheney was lying about how much alcohol he consumed which is why he delayed allowing the authorities to examine him.
It doesn't excuse him, but it looks a lot different then purposely leaving a person to die just to avoid a DUI.
I have no idea what happened. It is possible that Ted Kennedy has no idea. Yet people here have decided what happened as though they were there. They say " Ted left a girl to die". Sorry, but they just don't know, nor do I. I have my feelings about it, but that is all.
As Karl pointed out. The right forgave Dick Cheney his actions, so why not Ted.
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John Vawter
Social climber
San Diego
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Aug 26, 2009 - 05:18pm PT
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When someone said, "What other family in America has given so much to America?", I immediately thought of John and Bobby Kennedy. And I know there must be families in America who have lost more members of one generation (that family that lost four sons in WWII, for example). But I didn't get the sense that the OP was looking for actual comparisons.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Aug 26, 2009 - 05:21pm PT
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Will he be remembered as the only Kennedy brother who both didn't screw and then later try and kill Marilyn Monroe?
RIP with Mary Jo....
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Aug 26, 2009 - 05:30pm PT
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Batten is 100 percent British.
JDF
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WandaFuca
Gym climber
A survey where 68% preferred this Fuca over others
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Aug 26, 2009 - 05:32pm PT
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Spare me the crocodile tears for Mary Jo.
Maybe you haven't done one thing a hundredth as bad as the one bad thing he did, but you'll never accomplish a millionth of the good either.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Aug 26, 2009 - 05:48pm PT
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It makes no sense unless he was too concussed and didn't know she was there. Or too drunk.
Not saying he didn't leave her on purpose. Don't know. Just saying there are other reasons then leaving her on purpose.
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tomtom
Social climber
Seattle, Wa
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Aug 26, 2009 - 05:52pm PT
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Space aliens. Must have been space aliens.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Aug 26, 2009 - 06:02pm PT
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In some ways, Edward Kennedy's story is a classic story of redemption, US style. Fourth (?) son of a wealthy, privileged family, and a ruthless if not outright criminal father. (Parallel to George Bush.) Devastated by the death of his oldest brother in the war, and the murders of the next two. Not the family's chosen heir, in terms of its political ambitions, and an alcoholic and something of a dissolute. Committed an appalling error of judgment if not outright criminal negligence at Chappaquiddick, and was let off lightly, perhaps in part due to his name and family's influence, but also simple politics.
So far, a story arc much like that of many other younger sons of wealthy families of all political stripes, apart from the deaths of his brothers. The history of the US Senate is full of similar men. Most are stuck there for a term or two, contribute little, and walk away. A classic example being the useless Dan Quayle. A few eventually find their feet and contribute, as did Kennedy - in his case, not only atoning, but also living up to his family's expectations, and eventually Kennedy's own beliefs, especially after he realized he'd never be president.
The only thing he didn't do was go public on a talk show, confess his errors, and get religion.
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Porkchop_express
Trad climber
the base of the Shawangunk Ridge
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Aug 26, 2009 - 06:05pm PT
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The one thing that always seemed odd to me was that no one called him Ed. I've always heard Ted used as short for Theodore.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Aug 26, 2009 - 06:35pm PT
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He was the Poster-Boy for lots of issues:
-drunk driving / alcoholism
-the arguement against American Royalty
-term limits
-trust funds
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Jim Wilcox
Boulder climber
Santa Barbara
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Aug 26, 2009 - 06:42pm PT
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"Yes, most of us can't imagine leaving a person to die..."
Shoot, dozens of climbers walked right passed David Sharp and let him die alone on Everest. And there was a lively debate right here on Supertopo to whether or not their actions(i.e. reaching the summit) justified their decision. At least Kennedy was drunk-those climbers were sober.
man left to die on Everest
EDIT: John, this wasn't attacking your post, it just opened the door.
Some people feel There was no redemption possible after Mary Jo.
Some people feel that his later deeds eventually allowed him par.
I feel someone holding either belief is entitled to their opinion without being belittled.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Aug 26, 2009 - 07:17pm PT
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This is so absurd.
The guy is dead. Let it rest.
Sure, BITD I told the joke about Mary Jo worrying over pregnancy and him telling her "We'll cross that bridge when we come to it." but its not like the guy sat on his butt living off his inheritance afterward. And while I likely only agreed with half the stuff he did he did DO a lot of stuff, having a far more profound effect on the legislated structure of american society than his brothers put together.
There's been so much death this year that I'm becoming far more forgiving in my views.
Life is short, make the most of it.
Time often enough reveals our heroes to be fatally flawed and our antagonists to be admirable.
I think that the thread title puts it rather succinctly.
RIP
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apogee
climber
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Aug 26, 2009 - 07:19pm PT
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"There's been so much death this year that I'm becoming far more forgiving in my views.
Life is short, make the most of it.
Time often enough reveals our heroes to be fatally flawed and our antagonists to be admirable."
Well said, PR.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Aug 26, 2009 - 07:24pm PT
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Hey, I said often. I didn't say always,..
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Mark Not-circlehead
Boulder climber
Martinez, CA
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Aug 26, 2009 - 07:34pm PT
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Just a shame.......a shame that is that it took Karma 30+ years to catch up with Ted.
Who leaves a girl in a car, underwater, for 9 hours to sober up, before calling the police????? Unforgivable.....
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pip the dog
Mountain climber
planet dogboy
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Aug 26, 2009 - 07:49pm PT
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i much like Mighty Hiker's post, above. i think he captured the very heart of why Ted Kennedy is worthy of respect.
~~~
was Ted flawed? absolutely. the "Schemp" among his brothers? sure.
but imagine being in his shoes.
and before you quick sign on for the celebrity, and the money, and the private jets and massive family estates -- do pause a moment and think through the whole cost of the whole package.
i went to college with kids in shoes like that. and to this day i regularly thank, well, dumb luck if not a benevolent god, that i never had to live in or up to any of that. for i watched that old family dynasty gig suck the very life out of some truly good people. be careful what you ask for...
~~~
the chappaquiddick nightmare clearly changed the man. and here too, again through sheer chaos theory, i have my own small personal take on it. when i was 15 i got caught in a car, 30 feet under water, in the dark, in november. and no, i wasn't in the car when it went off the road then off the wall into the schuylkill river. i just happened to be nearby and for whatever reason decided to jump in and wrestle the door open. not easy, took some time and all of my "limp and flacid dog[dum]". then this huge bubble came out and in the same instant i got sucked in. and then the car plunged and the door closed.
my point is this: when under water in the dark drowning in a car with limp bodies floating about, all rules of newtonian physics and polite propriety quick seem to disappear. as such i can easily understand him not getting his date out. me, i was just lucky.
that said, taking 10 or so hours to let the authorities know something went massively amiss is all wrong. to my mind the act of a drunk guy. now i've been a drunk guy, though to date never while driving a car -- cabs are cheap, passing out behind a dumpster even cheaper. but in Ted's case, i try to imagine waking up all pukey sick with 35 professional family handlers on half million dollar retainers howling around me while trying to reconstruct a blackout.
now if you were that drunk guy, drunk Ted, and sobered up to realize what had gone down -- what would you do? here again i urge you to pause and think it through. i myself would have at least seriously considered putting a bullet in my head for killing someone who had put their trust in me. Dante reserved the lowest level of hell for precisely for people who killed those who trusted them, however unintentionally.
but thank [insert your personal understanding of why things happen as they do here], i've haven't yet been in that situation. and if i were, there surely wouldn't be legions of family legacy handlers in my face. there would be just my face in a mirror.
this is going on way too long (quel surprise).
~~~
i liked Ted Kennedy because he was flawed, because he saw hell all up close and personal (as i did in the schuylkill) -- that and far worse (i've yet to see one of my brothers' brains blown out via the television machine).
mostly i respect Ted because even after all those nightmares -- the assinations of his brothers, chappaquiddick -- he plowed on to try to achieve what he personally thought was right and important. for he could have easily backed off and schwanked around for the rest of his days in enormous wealth and guarded anonymity. but he didn't. rather he plowed on, most often into a hell of a headwind. and always with all that personal baggage around his neck. no small thing.
and sure, what he thought was right is almost certainly not precisely what you think is right. in a nation of 300 million i'm rather certain there aren't even two souls who agree on every detail. but he plowed on. he fought for things dear to him. and no, i didn't always agree with him.
as liberal as Ted is said to be, his policy was way right of my personal views. as a friend of mine told me awhile ago "when Che Guevara died, you became the far left goal post of all politics.” yeah, like that. when i become emperor -- you'll think Sweden is the fookin' Arab Emirates.
~~~
too much... ok, let me leave you with this thought. as you watch all the news coverage on this front, listen to what people like Orin Hatch, Jim Baker, and Sam Nunn have to say about the man.
makes me recall what Thomas Jefferson wrote to Adams about his hopes for what was then a young nation. Jefferson wrote (as best as i can recall -- i can't travel carry-on with my entire library): 'this nation needs an informed and educated electorate, a nation at once both conservative and liberal; conservative enough to maintain what works, and liberal enough to change what doesn't."
~~~
that's how i'll remember Ted Kennedy. a man with a goals he didn't need and yet fought like hell for: minimum wage, rights for the disabled, that and one especially dear to me -- health care. my beloved has MS. she has already been bankrupted trying to pay for the meds that seem to work, despite decades of insurance payments. soon the cost of those meds will do the same to me.
~~~
that and he seemed to understand Jefferson's brilliant point -- that we need an informed electorate who recognize that we need to be conservative enough to keep what works and liberal enough to try to fix what doesn't. Ted understood this, i believe, as did Hatch and Baker and Nunn. all good men. their juniors seem to forever miss that point, as do too many of us.
rest in peace, Senetor Kennedy. i was moved to learn that he will be buried beside two of his brothers. that small flame by JFK's grave in Arlington is deeply moving if you've ever seen it.
^,,^
"In our sleep, pain which cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart until, in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom through the awful grace of God."
--(Robert Kennedy, quoting Aeschylus' "Agamemnon" upon learning of the death of Martin Luther King, Jr)
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GDavis
Trad climber
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Aug 26, 2009 - 08:56pm PT
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A sad end to a bright family. Just like a lot of incredibly intelligent, incredibly talented people, he had his faults. I think the good outweighs the bads.
Fact of the matter is, a lot of people are given every reason to succeed and don't. He wrote, what, like 700 bills? Even if I don't agree with half of 'em, thats an amazing accomplishment.
He will have a very profound legacy and will require his own chapter in our history books, that much is honest.
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Aug 26, 2009 - 08:59pm PT
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"Ted's dead, baby" - Pulp Fiction
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Blitzo
Social climber
Earth
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Aug 26, 2009 - 09:11pm PT
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Gee!
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
Boise....
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Aug 26, 2009 - 11:03pm PT
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Karma is for chicks.
Hiya, Shack!
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Robb
Social climber
The Greeley Triangle
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Aug 26, 2009 - 11:48pm PT
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De mortius nil nisi bonum?
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apogee
climber
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Aug 26, 2009 - 11:49pm PT
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Illegitimus non carborundum!
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Aug 26, 2009 - 11:55pm PT
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Never speak ill of the dead, so I shall praise him,
The author of "No Child Left Behind"
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Aug 27, 2009 - 12:00am PT
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Ted accomplished wonderful things for this country as a whole. Mary Jo is nothing more than a tragic footnote, not the big issue some insist on making it.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Aug 27, 2009 - 12:02am PT
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Mary Jo is nothing more than a tragic footnote,
Tell that to her parent's face.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Aug 27, 2009 - 12:12am PT
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Compared to all the greater good he accomplished, yes she is a footnote.
Why don't you tell all the dead soldiers parents that to the New American Century their boys and girls were only footnotes.
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dogtown
Gym climber
JackAssVille, Wyoming
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Aug 27, 2009 - 12:15am PT
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....("Smoking pot in the White House, sleeping with movie stars, and giving all our hard earned money to the (crack heads on welfare...") No Todd that was Johnson... Oh and saying up your a*# too the USSR that's the Kennedy's I know and love and that's not Ted. letting your girlfriend (for the night) drown, That's the Ted we know. He was nothing like his Brothers.
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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Aug 27, 2009 - 12:28am PT
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Funny how all of the right wing crowd loves to kick em when they are down. I guess if you have no conscience it feels pretty good. Enjoy your "holier than thou" moment, I guess.
God bless those who can both see beyond their own circumstances as well as trying to help others better their lives. Sorry that doesn't include most of you who are so busy grabbing with both hands. Maybe if your hands weren't occupied you could actually offer someone else a hand up instead of shoving them out of the way.
By the way, how many of you have parents on Medicare? Can you spell hypocrite?
"Yeah, I woulda helped that girl, but screw everybody else! I got mine!"
Good luck in the great beyond, I can tell a lot of you guys are gonna need it.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Aug 27, 2009 - 01:15am PT
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I thought you might like this;
How Did I Get Myself Into This?
Bobby Kennedy climbs to the top of a 14,000-foot Yukon mountain, and then he comes down—to stay
Dolly Connelly
Two hundred feet below the summit the three men on the first rope—Big Jim, Bob and The Bear—stopped on the final steep snow ridge and changed positions. The smallest bundle of the three, muffled to plump anonymity in a quilted goose-down jacket, his size 9� feet enormous in black Korean boots spiked with 10-point crampons, his face hidden behind snow goggles, took the lead position on the 120-foot nylon rope.
He synchronized his breathing as he had been instructed, with a slow, steady "rest" step, in which the knee of the trailing leg is locked to take the weight off tired muscles, and moved up alone to a summit believed to be more than 14,000 feet high. He was the first man ever to stand atop the superb peak that Canada had named for his dead brother. He took off his goggles to look out upon a vast panorama of granite tyrannosaur teeth extending in all directions across the roof of the Yukon as far as the eye could see, and he stood very still for one private moment. Then, as James (Big Jim) Whittaker and Barry (The Bear) Prather, both veterans of the U.S. Everest expedition, watched and an aerial armada of photographers' planes circled overhead, Senator Robert F. Kennedy planted a family memorial flag. He also placed in a cache in the snow a copy of President Kennedy's inauguration speech, which was tightly wound in a metal cylinder of the type used for mountaintop registers, and three PT-boat tie clasps. Thus ended the climb of an obscure peak which had started in secrecy in Washington and evolved into the biggest story in Yukon Territory since the cremation of Sam McGee.
The climb had its beginnings on the anniversary of President Kennedy's assassination, when the Canadian House of Commons named for Kennedy a ledge on the shoulder of Mount Logan under the impression that it was a true peak. Old Mapmaker Bradford Washburn, who first charted the little-known St. Elias Range in 1935, pointed out that there was no such unnamed peak in the vicinity, but to the south, near the junction of the borders of Alaska, British Columbia and Yukon Territory, there loomed a 14,000-footer that was all a mountain should be, a spectacular ice-hung granite slab rising upward from a 5,000-foot plateau.
Under the sponsorship of the Boston Museum of Science and the National Geographic Society, Dr. Washburn set out to get an accurate survey of the entire region. From the scientific viewpoint, the first ascent of Mount Kennedy, until then the highest unclimbed peak on the North American continent, was only one chore in the two-month production of the first definitive map of the area. Late March was chosen as the best climbing time because powder snow is deep and stable for the landing of aircraft, small crevasses are filled in with drift, and avalanches are infrequent.
Then a Mr. J. R. Williams signified his intention to join the finest climbers of the Pacific Northwest in this job. At Seattle's Recreation Equipment, Inc. high-altitude gear made to Williams' measurements (five feet 10 inches, weight 160, "wiry as hell") piled up in a corner. There were an electric-blue quilted down jacket and trousers, Cruiser pack, ice ax, crampons, interlined snow boots and a suspiciously luxurious selection of freeze-dried delicacies—crab legs, chicken stew, strawberries. By the time J. R. Williams reached Seattle-Tacoma Airport last week to pick up his gear and head north, hundreds of people were milling through the terminal. The secret that Bobby Kennedy was about to climb a mountain was as well kept as news of a Beatle concert.
On the Monday morning at Whitehorse, 143 miles from Mount Kennedy, Yukoners came out to greet Kennedy with an enthusiasm unseen since Queen Elizabeth popped through in 1959. While taxi drivers, hotelmen and bush pilots fattened on swarms of newsmen, the climbers and their gear were whisked up to a base camp at 9,000 feet on Cathedral Glacier by a Royal Canadian Air Force helicopter that "just happened" to be in the area.
The route to the summit, plotted but not climbed by Dr. Washburn 30 years before, was 10 miles long, with a vertical rise of about 5,000 feet. A high camp was established at about 11,500 feet where the climbers would exchange trail snowshoes for crampons to be used on the dangerous ridge above, some of it pitched as much as 40�. Whittaker, the leader of the climb, graded the route as "moderately difficult and heavily crevassed." It wasn't Everest, but it was all the mountain that a 39-year-old neophyte with a psychological distaste for heights ought to be found on, no matter how "wiry" he is.
The Senator was irrepressible. The climbers spent Monday night at base camp, and the next morning Kennedy was chafing to get going. "The hardest part of mountain climbing is getting out of camp," he grumbled through the irritating ritual of making up packs and checking supplies. Inexperienced climbers rarely are given tasks in camp, on the assumption that they need the time to acclimate themselves. Not Kennedy.
When the Senator discovered that he had been cut out of chores he trotted around asking, "Can I lend a hand?" and finally assumed the job of lugging pails of clean snow to melt for cooking and drinking. Kennedy used water to wash his face and brush his teeth; nobody told him that these niceties usually are dispensed with on a major climb. The Senator carried his own gear, taking 35 pounds to the high camp, where the climbers spent Tuesday night. Topping his Cruiser pack was a three-foot pole and furled black pennant that had been made for him especially to place on Mount Kennedy. It displayed the family coat of arms—three gold helmets against a black background with a border of maroon and silver. (The climbers eventually persuaded Bob to bring the flag back down with him. Violent winds at the summit would have shredded it within 48 hours.)
A full day was cut from the estimated climbing time when it became quickly apparent to Whittaker, who was leading, and Prather, who was last on the three-man rope, that Kennedy could pick up mountaineering techniques en route. He was shown how to self-arrest with an ice ax, to force himself to breathe to the bottom of his lungs to get the maximum amount of oxygen, to toe into steep snow when going up and to move flat-footed on steep ice, driving in all points of his crampons.
"You only had to show him a thing once," said Whittaker later. "We did not have to tell him not to lean in toward the mountain, the chief problem with novice climbers. He kept perpendicular, kept his feet under him. Coming down around an exposed corner with a 6,000-foot drop immediately below him, he used a set line fixed to ice axes the way it should be used—as a hand line. Skiing has made him accustomed to steep snow—it doesn't scare him. And his boating experience has taught him how to handle rope."
"He's pretty tough. If there had been a weak member in the party we would have been in trouble," said Prather, who slipped into hidden crevasses three times. Kennedy slipped once, with a startled "oof!" into the bottleneck of a curving crevasse that may have been hundreds of feet deep. He caught himself with his arms about chest-deep and scrambled out with a belay from above.
At one point in Wednesday's 4�-hour climb to the summit, Kennedy halted, assuming that there was no way up a 45� rock wall ahead. He was astonished a moment later to see Whittaker's long, lean legs moving steadily upward. "You can't climb that!" Kennedy called. He discovered that with a firm belay you can climb anyplace you can get a toehold.
But his ropemates' chief problem was Kennedy's inclination to overlap, to push out ahead of the lead man on his rope. "He was wound up pretty tight, too eager," said Whittaker, who discovered that the best way to hold Kennedy in the center of the rope was to set a faster pace than normal.
Whittaker, having no desire to be the first man in history to take a U.S. Senator up a mountain and not bring him down, had judiciously added special safeguards to the usual first-aid and emergency gear in his guide's pack: an Arctic sleeping bag good for 30� below zero in which to shroud an injured man, and a pulmonary-edema kit in case Kennedy suffered an unfavorable reaction to high altitudes. But all he really needed was a small Band-Aid, for Kennedy's only injury was a slight blister on one heel.
Beautiful is a poor word for the first—and, most likely, the last—mountain to be climbed by Bob Kennedy. It is not a tough enough word, or grand enough, for Mount Kennedy is magnificent, with everything that a good peak should have. Corniced on its windblown summit, it has bergschrunds, gaping crevasses, avalanches pouring down glacial sidewalls, wind-packed deep powder, rock-hard glacial ice, terraced rock, ice wall breaks and a snowy wind plume boiling up over its ridges. The mountain proved both higher and tougher than anticipated—not the "easy peak" envisioned back in Washington.
"The final sharp ridge looked a lot like Everest," said Whittaker. "While we were on it Bob wanted to look down the face on the left, thousands of feet of sheer drop. It was the kind of spot that sometimes freezes experienced climbers. He leaned on his ice ax and looked over for a while. If he felt any fear, he kept it to himself."
The climbers spent an hour and a half on the summit, arrived back at base camp just before darkness and were flown down to Whitehorse the next morning. When Kennedy stepped out of the RCAF helicopter he looked bushed. The familiar expressive face, sad and wise like that of a city child who has gained too much knowledge too young, was gaunt, sunburned, bearded and dirty. He expressed his gratitude to the Canadian people, but he "reserved opinion" on the subject of climbing large mountains.
"I'd never go back up there again," he said. "I understand why climbers like it. They are a special breed of men. I'm mindful of the story General Maxwell Taylor tells of reviewing paratroopers during World War II. Each man in turn said that he had become a paratrooper because he liked to jump. Finally Taylor told them, I don't like to jump, but I like to be with people who like to jump.' Well, I like to be with people who like to climb. But I don't want to climb again. It's not exactly a pleasant experience. I kept thinking, 'How did I get myself into this?' "
A bath, a shave and a meal later, ex-mountaineer Kennedy was showing the giddy signs of postclimb euphoria that are so familiar to climbers. Delaying his departure five hours, he set forth on a tour of Whitehorse. He shook hands at RCMP headquarters—all the Mounties had stayed in town as a "protective measure" instead of leaving for their bush posts—and visited a high school. He poked into Sam McGee's 1899 cabin, viewed an early steam locomotive of the White Pass and Yukon Route railway and slopped through thick gumbo around the Yukon River sternwheelers Klondike, Whitehorse, Casca and Loon, which are rotting in the mud.
Finally he boarded the plane for Seattle, and as it took off he shed his suit jacket and his necktie and pulled on a battered old cashmere sweater. Written in indelible ink on the neck label was the name of its former owner, John F. Kennedy.
Meanwhile, the Mounties of Whitehorse were looking back on Bob Kennedy's visit with the fondest regard. During late March and early April in the north country, cabin fever reaches a high pitch. With relief from the long, dark winter just a matter of days away, emotional frenzy grips the thinly scattered populace, and the homicide rate rises sharply. This year the good people of Yukon Territory have let off so much steam over the Kennedy climb that the Mounties predict they will make it through the ice breakup without so much as an assault case.
RIP Ted
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mrtropy
Trad climber
Nor Cal
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Aug 27, 2009 - 02:56am PT
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At least he is not Catholic.
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Prod
Trad climber
A place w/o Avitars apparently
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Aug 27, 2009 - 09:12am PT
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Philo says...
"Compared to all the greater good he accomplished, yes she is a footnote.
Why don't you tell all the dead soldiers parents that to the New American Century their boys and girls were only footnotes. "
Because they are not, nor was Mary Jo. Her's was a life that was neglected and covered up by political and monitary power. Politicians and Rich people alike should be held to the same standard as the rest of us.
John Moosie says...
"I don't think that was Karl's point. I think his point is that Dick screwed up, broke the law, and didn't pay, yet the right forgave him and allowed him to move on."
That is not right either, and the 2 instances hardley compare. My point is, why on earth should a politician not have to be held to the same standard as you and me?
Prod.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Aug 27, 2009 - 09:28am PT
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You mean like George Jr. Going AWOL then deserting and still being allowed to be commander in chief, then starting two illegal wars killing off thousands of American soldiers in the process all while enriching himself and his friends?
Yeah you are right Mary Jo was the crime of the century.
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Prod
Trad climber
A place w/o Avitars apparently
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Aug 27, 2009 - 09:43am PT
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Hi Philo,
That is exactely what I mean! Why aren't our politicians and rich brats held to the same standard as you and me?
I know you are passionate about politics, but you have to admit that calling Mary Jo a foot note is a tad harsh. No?
* Edit * Mary Jo was not the crime of the century, but a crime none the less. Creepier to me is the whole mystery of her families reaction or lack there of.
Prod.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Aug 31, 2009 - 01:25pm PT
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So many posts here about Ted focus on one bad, sad tragic event in his life. We all make misstakes and screw-up. Who can cast the first stone?
He did so much for all of us. I hope medical insurance for all US Citizens happpens and I would like to see the Bill that finally passes to do so to honor Senator Ted Kennedy.
I really admire the Kennedy family. They are incredibly brave beyond what you and I can fathom. They have done so much good and have sufferred so much tragic lose as a result. No other family has kicked against the dark powers that abide deep within our government and suffered as a result, as has the Kennedy family.
Robert kennedy Jr. says it best . . . I did not know that Ted did some climbing back in the day. He actually summited the Matterhorn in Switzerland.
I will really miss you Ted :_((
RFK Jr.: Ted Kennedy
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x362403
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8rN3sqGTnk
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Aug 31, 2009 - 01:41pm PT
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Nice Klimmer. He was a great American warts and all.
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Fluoride
Trad climber
Hollywood, CA
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Aug 31, 2009 - 01:52pm PT
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He was born into a life of wealth and status. He had no need to care about those beneath him. He could have kept that lifestyle and only thought of using his office to benefit his fellow rich & privileged (I'm talking to YOU Bush brothers, which W and his cronies own) but instead he fought for the little guy. The person without rights, without access, without a voice. His was a life of service for those who didn't have the money and access to the halls of the Senate. His legacy is one of the greatest in American legislative history.
His voice will be missed.
If you haven't, youtube his speech when Robert Bork was nominated to the Supreme Court. His championship for the common man and common sense helped get that guy out of harms way of wrecking this country with his extreme right wing warped views and decisions on the highest court in the land.
RIP Ted. I so wish he was here for the healthcare debate.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Aug 31, 2009 - 03:03pm PT
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OK everyone is bored of Mary Jo--TK's supporters liken her to a "footnote."
Still, it's interesting that TK thought it was a good source of humor and liked to tell jokes about it.
http://www.breitbart.tv/kennedy-friend-recalls-how-much-he-loved-to-joke-about-chappaquiddick/
Swell guy.
He's a good description of some of his shenanigans from a fair, unbiased source:
"Kennedy earned C grades at the private Milton Academy, but was admitted to Harvard as a "legacy" -- his father and older brothers had attended there, so the younger and dimmer Kennedy's admission was virtually assured. While attending, he was expelled twice, once for cheating on a test, and once for paying a classmate to cheat for him. While expelled, Kennedy enlisted in the Army, but mistakenly signed up for four years instead of two. His father, Joseph P. Kennedy, former U.S. Ambassador to England, pulled the necessary strings to have his enlistment shortened to two years, and to ensure that he served in Europe, not Korea, where a war was raging. Kennedy was assigned to Paris, never advanced beyond the rank of Private, and returned to Harvard upon being discharged.
While attending law school at the University of Virginia, he was cited for reckless driving four times, including once when he was clocked driving 90 miles per hour in a residential neighborhood with his headlights off after dark. Yet his Virginia driver's license was never revoked. He passed the bar exam in 1959, and two years later was appointed an Assistant to the District Attorney in Massachusetts' Suffolk County.
In 1962, at age 30 (constitutionally, the minimum age to hold a Senate seat) he ran for the Senate. His timing was perfect -- his brother John had given up the seat to become President, and Kennedy easily won the office. He was re-elected to seven more terms.
In 1964, he was seriously injured in a plane crash, and hospitalized for several months. His sister Kathleen and nephew "John John" were killed in separate plane crashes.
On 19 July 1969, Kennedy attended a party on Chappaquiddick Island in Massachusetts. At about 11:00 PM, he borrowed his chauffeur's keys to his Oldsmobile limousine, and offered to give a ride home to Mary Jo Kopechne, a campaign worker. Leaving the island via an unlit bridge with no guard rail, Kennedy steered the car off the bridge, flipped, and into Poucha Pond. He swam to shore and walked back to the party -- passing several houses and a fire station -- and two friends returned with him to the scene of the accident. According to their later testimony, they told him what he already knew, that he was required by law to immediately report the accident to the authorities. Instead Kennedy made his way to his hotel, called his lawyer, and went to sleep.
Kennedy called the police the next morning. By then the wreck had already been discovered. Before dying, Kopechne had scratched at the upholstered floor above her head in the upside-down car. The Kennedy family began pulling strings, ensuring that any inquiry would be contained. Her corpse was whisked out-of-state to her family, before an autopsy could be conducted. Further details are uncertain, but after the accident Kennedy says he repeatedly dove under the water trying to rescue Kopechne, and he didn't call police because he was in a state of shock. In versions not so kind, it is widely assumed Kennedy was drunk, that he was having an affair with Kopechne, and/or that he held off calling police in hopes that his family could fix the problem overnight.
After the accident, Kennedy's political enemies referred to him as the distinguished Senator from Chappaquiddick, or worse. He pled guilty to leaving the scene of an accident, and was given a suspended sentence of two months. Kopechne's family received a small payout from the Kennedy's insurance policy, and never sued. There was later an effort to have her body exhumed and autopsied, but her family successfully fought against this in court, and Kennedy's family paid their attorney's bills.
In 1973, at the height of Nixon's Watergate scandal, Kennedy thundered from the Senate floor, "Do we operate under a system of equal justice under law? Or is there one system for the average citizen and another for the high and mighty?"
http://www.nndb.com/people/623/000023554/
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Aug 31, 2009 - 03:12pm PT
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"Otherwise, no one could be that complacent about someone who killed their daughter in an irresponsible manner."--HowDean
Uhh, he didn't KILL HER.
He prolly didn't TRY as hard as he could have to help save her, but she was the victim of a car accident involving water, pure and simple. Hell, I'm a shite swimmer and could barely save myself in an incident such as that. He wasn't a Navy SEAL, for godsakes, he was an inebriated politician who was a poor driver--fault him for THAT, not killing someone.
Gawd, you're cruel, Howie...
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Aug 31, 2009 - 03:27pm PT
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^ ^ ^ ^
Yes, he did kill her through his reckless driving. It would now be called vehicular homicide--apparently that charge didn't exist at the time.
He didn't intentionally kill her but he killed her nonetheless, kind of like that Dr. in California who just did in Michael Jackson.
You can kill people in different ways--not all require intent or premeditation.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Aug 31, 2009 - 03:35pm PT
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Applying today's laws to an event that happened over 40 years ago is cruel, as well--glad you folks are so forgiving and tolerant...
edit: And don't be so quick to arm-chair lawyer that one--your proof is hear say.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Aug 31, 2009 - 03:42pm PT
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Correct, sir fat, the Kennedys were hardly anglels, no doubt.
I'm saying that while we ALL would TRY to save her (in theory), many, if not most, here would not be capable of the heroic deed of pulling her out of the sunken auto.
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