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Floyd Hayes
Trad climber
Hidden Valley Lake, CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 17, 2009 - 04:23pm PT
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What's the best way?
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Aug 17, 2009 - 04:28pm PT
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Passing knots, especially large knots, can be very painful. You're better off not eating your rope in the first place.
Sorry, I couldn't help myself. I'll go sit in the car now and wait until someone offers a non-smartass answer.
Serious edit: What do you have hanging off you? How to pass a knot on rap depends on what tools and supplies are available. Do you by any chance have jumars? Prussik cord?
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Aug 17, 2009 - 04:31pm PT
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I didn't know you could do that?
Better than Bran, works best with Hemp.
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Gene
climber
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Aug 17, 2009 - 04:34pm PT
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The only thing I'll add to Clint's description is to tie in short while you go through the process.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Aug 17, 2009 - 04:36pm PT
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This is actually a good subject to explore. Obviously, if you've got ascenders and aiders, passing a knot is easy. But the less you're carrying, the more interesting it gets... all the way down to rigging prussiks out of your shoelaces.
Of course, if your shoes are slipper style, and you don't have even a single sling or biner on your harness, it gets more serious.
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Floyd Hayes
Trad climber
Hidden Valley Lake, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 17, 2009 - 04:37pm PT
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Thanks, Clint, sounds simple. No need then for a Munter hitch? As illustrated in "Mountaineering: Freedom of the Hills" (p. 507 of vol. 7).
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Aug 17, 2009 - 04:41pm PT
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I saw a presentation by Simon Yates on Saturday, but wouldn't recommend his method of passing knots.
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
Boise....
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Aug 17, 2009 - 04:41pm PT
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Naw...of course, you can if you wish. Not necessary.
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Ed Bannister
Mountain climber
Riverside, CA
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Aug 17, 2009 - 04:52pm PT
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assuming two good ropes,
why and that the knot is at the anchor, why would you ever want to pass a knot?
raps longer than 165 or 180 feet have so much variation in friction from the weight of the dangling cord that raps over 200 feet are not woth it.
most cavers, with the rare mandated exception, rap no more that 200 feet at a time.
so, given that why would you ever need to pass a knot?
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Floyd Hayes
Trad climber
Hidden Valley Lake, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 17, 2009 - 04:54pm PT
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Lost Arrow Tip!
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Josh Nash
Social climber
riverbank ca
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Aug 17, 2009 - 04:58pm PT
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passing a knot...
what you want to do is depress the gas pedal to gain speed. When you are closing on the knott, about a car length behind, put on your direction indicator light. turn the steering wheel just a little to move your vehicle into a free lane. continue to accelerate past the knott then return to your lane. That's how you pass a knotttttt!
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Aug 17, 2009 - 05:00pm PT
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The safest way of passing the knot involves also clipping into a tied loop at the knot with your personal anchor, or cow's tail as they are referred to
Which is an excellent piece of advice, but you have to remember to leave enough of the free end of the rope sticking out of the knot to tie a loop. But if you do that it certainly cuts the danger way down.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Aug 17, 2009 - 05:03pm PT
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Had to do it once in Alaska. Descending an unexplored face we found that we were above a huge overhang and the only way to reach the glacier was by tying both ropes together. The knot was encountered fully 40 feet out away from the wall and with heavy packs passing the knot was EPIC!!! We ended up with 30 feet of retrievable rope which made the several hundred feet of mixed down climbing to the main glacier "rather spicy." My advice is don't get yourself into that position.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Aug 17, 2009 - 05:04pm PT
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Floyd,
> No need then for a Munter hitch?
Not if you have 2 ascenders. For the rappel into the Lost Arrow notch, you can have the knot temporarily at the intermediate anchor, so the first person down can get around the knot at that anchor. The second person then lowers the knot down and passes it using the ascenders.
We used the 2 ropes total method for the Lost Arrow Tip last summer, and it worked great.
http://www.supertopo.com/rock_climbing/route_beta.php?r=yblalati
With a Munter hitch, you can pass the knot through the hitch, by unweighting the hitch briefly. I like to use the Munter hitch when rappelling on small diameter ropes. And also sometimes when belaying a long toprope with 2 ropes. But there are ways to avoid passing the knot when toprope belaying, by having the climber tie in short, when the knot is up at the anchor. You can also use 2 belay devices, and leave one clipped on at the knot. You still have to unweight the rope briefly to unclip the upper device if lowering the climber.
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Jerry Dodrill
climber
Sebastopol, CA
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Aug 17, 2009 - 05:11pm PT
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What Clint said up thread.
But use a back up knot.
Also, if you rap with a grigri you can hang hands free while you rig the swap.
If you have two rap devices you can just take one ascender/aider. Put on the second device below the knot while still on the top one. Stand in the low step on the aider, pull the top device and sink into the lower one, below the knot. Use a back up knot, of course!
Its more fun when you're spinning in space. Edit: Jeez, Donini!
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Aug 17, 2009 - 08:34pm PT
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Here's a pretty gear-minimal solution. No prussiks, ascenders, or aiders, no trying to feed a knot through something either. I've broken it into several steps, but the process is extremely simple.
1. Pull up the rope and install ATC (or whatever device you normally rap with) on rope immediately under knot. Tie it off with releasable hitch (Munter mule the standard choice) and clip to harness. Probably a good idea to also clip in a backup loop tied below ATC.
2. Install locker with Munter Hitch on rope and clip to harness with a sling long enough to put the Munter up just above head level (high but still reachable).
3. Rappel on extended Munter until hanging from tied-off ATC (the extension will allow the tied-off ATC to become weighted before the knot reaches the Munter).
4. Unlock the Munter biner, detach its connecting sling, and "pop" the Munter off the weighted line (try it---you can do this---the Munter does not have to be unweighted).
5. Continue rapping on the ATC, after undoing the backup loop.
Try this at least once in a controlled setting so you know how long the Munter extension has to be, because the only screw-up is if the knot reaches the Munter before the ATC below the knot is fully weighted.
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midarockjock
climber
USA
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Aug 17, 2009 - 09:18pm PT
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Taught line hitch. Works, however not well with ropes designed for
falling on.
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
Boise....
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Aug 17, 2009 - 09:38pm PT
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Sounds like a good idea there, Mr. Donini.
Spicey, indeed.
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 17, 2009 - 10:11pm PT
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Excellent as usual rgold.
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Fuzzywuzzy
climber
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Aug 18, 2009 - 03:08am PT
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Nice one rgold!
Anyone remember Walt's solution?
"Get up to ramming speed"!! (when passing a knot while using a Munter)
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Aug 18, 2009 - 03:21am PT
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I learned this one from PTPP, who learned it from Chongo. This is for passing a knot on a single rope rappel, as might be used for fixing pitches on a wall.
You tie the ropes together using a double-fisherman's knot. Then, you tie an alpine butterfly knot so the fisherman's is in the loop off to the side. The fisherman's should be offset in the loop, and not in the middle; there should be two unequal strands in the loop.
What you get is an alpine butterfly knot holding the two ropes together, and a loop of rope, right where you want one.
When you rap down to the knot, you use the loop as a safety clip-in while you remove your rap rig and replace it below the knot. You don't need jugs. You can just clip an aider or sling into the loop to stand on.
Or, if you're like me, you clip everything you have into the loop, because you're scared outta your fricken mind.
THE CHONGO KNOT
EDIT: Clint's post below has me trying to remember (not an easy task) but the Chongo Knot may have required the use of a jug to unweight the rap rig. I can't remember. I do remember that the loop was very nice.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Aug 18, 2009 - 03:50am PT
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The loop sounds like fun, but why wouldn't you have your ascenders with you?
You have your aider(s) but not ascenders?
I hope your ascenders are not up at the high point. :-)
I suppose if you are going very light and only have one pair of ascenders to share with two people, then you might want a trick for passing the knot without ascenders. Or the first person down could just leave the ascenders there at the knot.... (This assumes there is only one knot).
If it is some kind of emergency bailout, and neither person has ascenders, with no immediate plans to reascend the rope, then you will want an ascender free method - prusiks, autoblock with a sling, etc. But the mechanics are still the same. I like Rich's trick of using a high Munter and getting it off the rope even under tension.
The loop does not provide any means to detension the rope on your rappel device. It seems to merely be something to clip into. I've made my argument previously why this clipin is not needed. (When you are rappelling). It would provide proper redundancy when you are reascending, though.
One time at Indian Creek, we were climbing with a guy who set up a 2-rope toprope on Jane Fonda Total Body Workout. He tied the ropes together with the loop similar to what Tom describes - double fishermans in the loop, but an EDK instead of butterfly to create the loop. The problem was, on the sandstone, the rope contacts the rock on the EDK join. Just toproping and lowering 2 people on the climb coreshot both ropes at this join point. I prefer to use a rewoven figure 8 to join ropes, at least when hangup risk is not too high. Even if it wears against the rock, the part of the knot which contacts the rock can rotate and does not concentrate wear in a small area like the EDK.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Aug 18, 2009 - 04:00am PT
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Clint, I have a story:
Fixing the bottom of New Dawn, it made perfect sense to fix four pitches with two ropes to the base. We would haul from our high point, with the lower man walking backwards down the slab to counterweight the pigs (how? another story).
That was the first time I used the Chongo Knot to pass a knot on rappel. Just the idea of passing a knot scared the hell out of me. I was close enough to the base to see what I would hit, if I fell. Unclipping your rap rig in outer space is unnerving, at best.
But, the Chongo Knot system worked perfectly. And everthereafter, I knew the Chongo Knot was, in PTPP's parlance, The Better Way.
Chongo may seem crazy to some, but, nobody thinks he's stupid.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Aug 18, 2009 - 04:03am PT
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> You don't need jugs. You can just clip an aider or sling into the loop to stand on.
How can you unweight your rappel device in this situation?
It is above the knot, so it is still under tension.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Aug 18, 2009 - 04:10am PT
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Clint's right, and I was wrong. To unweight the rap rig, you do need at least one jug.
The Chongo Loop still seems good, though.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Aug 18, 2009 - 04:14am PT
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It's definitely good as a safety clipin for reascending, if you are going up these ropes many times or with many people.
On the way down, if you have both ascenders and a rap device, you always have 2 things on the rope, so you already have redundancy.
But hopefully you will go back to reascend at some point, and then the loop may be good to have (unless the knot is already at an anchor where you can clip something while you are moving one ascender past the knot). However, if you left enough slack in the ropes, you can tie such a loop just below your ascenders to tie in short, before you take an ascender off the rope. If you were going up and down these ropes more than once, tying and untying the backup could be slow, so the perma-loop would be better in that situation.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Aug 18, 2009 - 04:22am PT
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Thanks, Clint, for pointing out my error in not providing the entire sequence/system. I fixated on the Chongo Knot and its loop, and didn't consider the entire system for using it when I blathered my first post.
Mea Culpa, PC647 - unable to care for his safety, or the safety of others.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Aug 18, 2009 - 04:34am PT
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This can be a helpful tip for rapping or lowering two full ropes tied together.
Tie them together with a eurodeathknot. (overhand knot with both ends coming out the same side, not extremely long tails)
Rappel or lower using munter hitch on a BIG biner
When you get to the knot, you can push it around the biner and through the munter without any unclipping or extra gear.
That's it
Peace
Karl
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Aug 18, 2009 - 04:43am PT
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The Munter Hitch has the disagreeable trait of twisting the rope below you, as you descend. If the lower end of the rope is anchored, the twisting results in an obnoxious coiling as you approach the lower anchor. I rapped the East Ledges once on a Munter, and found this out, the hard way.
If the rope end is free, I guess the Munter Hitch would be OK.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Aug 18, 2009 - 05:11am PT
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Yup
If you've got your aid gear with you, no reason to hassle with munter.
Particularly cush....Attach Yates adjustable daisy to jumar or tibloc. After you remove the device above the knot and clip into rappel device below the knot, the adjustable daisy will let you get weighted on the new device by simply extending it until it's slack and you can remove the jumar
peace
karl
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Aug 18, 2009 - 10:00am PT
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The Munter Hitch has the disagreeable trait of twisting the rope below you, as you descend.
I got talking about belay devices with Jim Nelson one time. (For those who don't know him, he's hardcore old school, with vast alpine and rock experience). His opinion was that a Munter was sufficient for almost any situation, whether belaying or rappeling.
When I mentioned the way it twists the rope below when you are rappeling, he just laughed and said something like "Only if you don't know what you're doing."
Anybody else saying that, I'd have shrugged it off, but he was adamant that a Munter would not cause twists in the rope if it was used properly. We were indoors and he couldn't demonstrate, but I've since wondered. It mostly sounded like a matter of hand positioning, but...
Anybody out there know about this? Muntering without kinks?
D
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Fletcher
Trad climber
Shivasana
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Aug 18, 2009 - 10:11am PT
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I'm not sure about rapping on a Munter, but if you keep both strands close and parallel to each other when using a Munter to belay, my understanding is that is wont twist the rope. I've not tried this, but the guy who told me definitely knew what he was doing!
Eric
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Aug 18, 2009 - 10:21am PT
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Oh, so this is single strand and I can have a jug?
Nothing to it. A matter of seconds.
My jugs are preslung with tie in loop and stirrup.
Two lockers on harness, one for jugs, one for figure8.
Rap to knot. When it jams against figure8 let go after clipping jug above.
Stand in stirrup.
Unclip figure8 and put on below knot.
Weight.
Unclip jug.
Bob's your uncle!
(I like to "protect" my single strand raps with a jug held cam-open, so truly, this takes seconds)
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Aug 18, 2009 - 11:58am PT
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Ghost
The explanation from Jim is based on his many years of climbing with Kit Lewis and some other ruffians, and if you're all twisted, then the rope may not be. Seriously, if Jim says it, I'm sure it's accurate.
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Brian Hench
Trad climber
Laguna Beach, CA
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Aug 18, 2009 - 12:06pm PT
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I have climbed with Jim Nelson and he is absolutely correct about the Munter Hitch not twisting the rope if you use it correctly. The tail must be held so that it feeds from the same direction as the load. This is easier said than done on rappel, because you would much rather let the tail fall down, not up.
Jim uses the Munter for everything, belays with it all the time.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Aug 18, 2009 - 12:06pm PT
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The explanation from Jim Nelson is based on his many years of climbing with Kit Lewis and some other ruffians. If you're all twisted, then the rope may not be. Make sense?
Makes complete sense.
I remember standing in the foyer of some hall where there was going to be a slide show talking to Darryl Hatten. Kit walked in, saw Darryl and sauntered over, took a huge swig of the beer he was carrying and then suddenly bent over and sprayed it all over Darryl's feet.
They both thought this was the funniest thing that had happened in ages.
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midarockjock
climber
USA
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Aug 18, 2009 - 04:15pm PT
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The taught line hitch is easier than this, but I'm now talking
about a line designed to fall on.
Crying Time Again Rappel, and not leaving gear.
Tie a 1" tubular webbing with a water knot creating a loop.
Attach a carbiner, feed the other end through the eye bolt.
Attach 1 end of the rope to the carbiner, feed the other end
back through the carbiner and the loop through the eye bolt.
There is now a 3 part line. Rappel with your figure8, stitch
plate etc. down the 2 parts that are equalized. after getting to
the ground or next anchor or anchors pull the 2 part line and
then the 3'rd which pulls the carbiner and retreives your sling.
Caveat,
it's easy to know how, but it's not easy to apply without real
life practice first, and I practiced before this route.
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rap down close to the knot
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