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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Jul 29, 2009 - 04:09am PT
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Man I wish all of the families peace, give big props to ISAR, and wish a speedy recovery to those who were injured.
MUCCI
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Jul 29, 2009 - 05:47am PT
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Rick,
It sounds like too many accidents happened on Friday and ISAR did not have enough people to cover them all?
But that is no excuse for having the dispatcher tell you people were coming when they were not. That's bad communication.
I can understand it if they choose to divert the helicopter / people to the evac of Jesse with the broken leg on Temple Crag. But if plans changed, they should have called you back, so you were informed about delays.
1.5 hours of CPR on a guy, alone - that's rough. Then sitting there for 5 hours with a dead guy and bad communication - must have been extremely frustrating.
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tom woods
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Jul 29, 2009 - 11:34am PT
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What was wrong with the call out? Again I don't know the details, but it would be normal to get a crew rolling from Bishop, meet at the Lone Pine Airport for transport if their was a helo available and fly up to do a recovery.
That the SAR was resolved entirely by CHP crew is not unusual, but often there would be a SAR volunteer on the ship to carry, do any first aid and what not. I will say that five hours from call to completion isn't bad. Distance is a time killer in Inyo County.
Chief- you are better at dealing with government types than almost anyone. Go talk to the ISO and tell them what you think could be done better.
Also- Chief, from my personal perspective I need to re-change how I personally think about SAR. When my son was born in December I told my self I'd only go on the rescues where people were in real trouble and needed real help. I have limited time now and I could have very easily been killed on a operation last summer.
What I'm seeing here is that my new rules are wrong, I would not go on a recovery by my new personal rules. On a recovery, the living need help too.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jul 29, 2009 - 12:31pm PT
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That Was, a class effort!
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 29, 2009 - 12:44pm PT
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Navy Helo SAR?
I thought that was completely phased out and no longer exists?
At least here in Yosemite. Most all hoist ops here are now done by CHP. They've trained here since Lemore phased out and are pretty damn good.
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tom woods
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Jul 29, 2009 - 01:31pm PT
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We can get the military still, but my understanding is that it's hard.
That being said, there was a bad head injury on the mountaineers route in the spring/winter. Our guys got there and settled in for a long night with a grim outcome expected. One of the deputies was able to find a Marine Helo that was on a night training down south. The Marines sent two, big old things (I don't know what they were bigger than blackhawks) up the north fork of lone pine creek after midnight and picked everyone up. The victim lived. Give me the willies to think about, but good on them.
The military can still come through, but its rare these days. I've heard it has to do with that crash in Yosemite that busted up a rescuer and killed the victim. Cathedral gully I believe.
Forest Service, CHP, Park Service, and every once and a while Fish and Game, are the helo suppliers these days.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 29, 2009 - 01:35pm PT
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Hopefully your fine efforts to help will be good karma, as you were undoubtedly aware that, except in drowning or electrocution, somebody who doesn't come back after a much shorter period of CPR, particularly in the backcounty, isn't coming back.
Your efforts will probably comfort the family of the fallen, as they know somebody cared for the victim enough to be there for them.
Hopefully this thread will lead to consideration that will make things better in the future
PEace
Karl
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 29, 2009 - 01:40pm PT
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Chief
My understanding NAS Lemoore SAR is not allowed anymore in Yosemite.
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mooch
Big Wall climber
The Immaculate Conception
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Jul 29, 2009 - 02:38pm PT
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Very much alive and well in China Lake....flying H-60's these days.
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slobmonster
Trad climber
berkeley, ca
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Jul 29, 2009 - 02:44pm PT
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Chief, I respect your frustration with the mis-communication quagmire. You obviously have been around the block enough times to expect better.
But the only question I would ask: why did you go alone to begin with?
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Jul 29, 2009 - 03:13pm PT
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We all know that SAR's take for fukkin ever even at the best of times.... (I guess unless you are military) Many the time some poor bastard gets hurt at midday and is assured a long night out. Seen it, done it.... don't like it. Not entirely sure why it happens. Any time the giant machine gets involved, time will start to crawl.
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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Jul 29, 2009 - 04:28pm PT
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one of the better fake avatars, imo.
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tom woods
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Jul 29, 2009 - 07:18pm PT
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Lawyers? That ain't good for anyone, except the lawyer I should say.
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Jul 29, 2009 - 07:33pm PT
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Quief, or Fartwad,
you're outa line on this one....I don't usually get too pissed off on this forum, because anal pores like you aren't worth the time, but you've probably never had someone die on you while you're busting your asss to save them, or yer some fartwad on the SAR that never got there and are pissed off because someone is criticizing you. The Chief IS a good guy, not full of himself, looking for self promotion. He did what he could to try to save someones life and made the calls and was told help was coming.....told a freaking lie! He's pissed because the system he works with is busted and he wants it fixed because it may have cost a life!!! NO ONE can forecast the probability of survival, and if you think they can, yer phucking crazy to think that way. Would be interesting to see if it were your loved one that got blown off by SAR if you would have the same self rightious attitude.
Chief I hope this gets solved one way or another and I hope you just blow these kinda......fartwad off, not worth your time.
Peace
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Jul 29, 2009 - 07:37pm PT
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What Ron said.
Thanks for your effort Chief. You have my deepest respect.
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tom woods
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Jul 29, 2009 - 07:49pm PT
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Ron- I was going to ignore Quief, no real name anonymous spew, but since you bring it up, I agree with you. Quief, you're a dick.
I disagree about the forecast of someone's survival. A heart attack in the wilderness, that's so bad to require CPR, is pretty much lights out. We are talking miracle odds here. It doesn't mean you shouldn't try. The chief did what he was supposed to do and then some.
I disagree with the assessment that somebody was lying. It's possible I guess, and I don't know what was said, nor by whom, but it seems to me unlikely that someone, a dispatcher, or a deputy, was lying.
A helo came, that is a direct SAR response, coordinated by Inyo County Sheriff Deputies who are in charge of the SAR volunteers.
The argument here is about appropriate SAR response, level of SAR response, or possibly required SAR response, or improving a SAR response.
Chief- like I said, that Marine Response on the Mountaineers route saved a man. A deputy, who had been told of the severity of the situation based on a single statement from one of the Inyo SAR volunteers, kept working into the night to find a chopper that could fly at night after all others are grounded until daylight. The SAR volunteer said, "Mt.Dade," and the Deputy needed no other description of the severity of the situation.
The Marines owed us one anyway. We plucked three of their guys off a cliff in the North Fork Of lone pine creek just a few months before that.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 29, 2009 - 07:59pm PT
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The Chief (not to be confused with Chief = Perry) seems to have removed his earlier post(s), about an undoubtedly difficult experience. Whatever else happened, he seems to have done his best, in stressful circumstances.
It seems to have been a very busy time for Inyo S&R. As to what happened in terms of search management and allocation of resources, presumably the post-rescue debriefing and reports will cover it. Perhaps there's something that can be learned from what happened, and improvements can be made. There seems insufficient information to come to any conclusion at this point.
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crusher
climber
Santa Monica, CA
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Jul 29, 2009 - 08:00pm PT
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I can't answer to or comment upon the logistics of what happened, but I have to say that if a loved one of mine was about to go "lights out" and was beyond immediate rescue help, I hope to God (or whomever) that they would have someone there with them who tried their hardest to save them and at the very least gave a sh*t about trying to get them rescued and didn't give up whether an hour later or five hours later...and then gave a sh*t enough to realize that maybe things weren't handled as well as they COULD have been and tried to keep it from happening again to someone else.
Edit - not meant to say that SAR personnel don't care...really a response to the "Quief" post and a thank you to The Chief.
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Barbarian
Trad climber
slowly dying in the OC
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Jul 29, 2009 - 08:05pm PT
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I'm with Ron.
I've had the unfortunate experince of having someone die on a climb. I've also performed CPR on someone while waiting for help. Neither is any fun. I can't imagine why The Chief got bad info on incoming assistance - that I guess will come out eventually.
There's no reason to bag on The Chief either. He did what any number of long-time mountaineers would do - he dropped everything to assist someone else in their time of need. Pure unselfish action. Kudos to The Chief!
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Anastasia
climber
Not here
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Jul 29, 2009 - 08:10pm PT
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Chief,
I know about dealing with having someone injured and dying while waiting for help. There is only a small window for their survival. It is a window between life and death, between being disabled for life to having them fully recover... Timing can be everything. I feel for your experience, admire your efforts and... I am proud that you are trying to create a solution. Please keep up the good fight.
AF
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Jul 29, 2009 - 08:23pm PT
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I like to remind myself that SAR does get their job done in a quick and well-equipped fashion. Humans, in general, are fairly bad at organizing large events quickly. Only the best of the best can get a man to the moon in ten years. Most people are idiots.
So when anyone is thinking of fixing the system because it's broke, consider that it's actually working quite well and that pushing and pushing for more and more from the SAR guys, and anyone else, will just make them want to get a better job where their hard work is not criticized constantly.
Life it tough. Death sucks but it happens. There will always be times when someone else isn't there to save the guy. This was just one of those times when things worked normally instead of working well.
Dave
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Omot
Trad climber
The here and now
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Jul 29, 2009 - 08:49pm PT
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Good to see this thread getting away from the accusatory. Chief got mad, but that's understandable given the circumstances. What he did was heroic for sure, but what ISAR does is also heroic. Sounds like there are some improvements needed and hopefully these will get addressed.
My friends and I got involved in a rescue a few weeks ago near Mt Carl Heller. Both the SAR folks and the CHP helo guys were professional and competent. The rescue went smoothly and a person's life was saved. My impression was that ISAR is not very well funded and the volunteers are doing the best they can with the resources they have.
Finally, condolences to all those who lost loved ones recently. It has been crazy. Be safe out there.
Tomo
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tom woods
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Jul 29, 2009 - 09:38pm PT
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Good on you Chief. I was thinking about this whole thread, and I figured everybody here is working with very few cards, we're mostly just trying to help you deal with an awful situation.
Chief- you have a lot more cards than we have. I'm trying to fill in blanks on what would normally happen, when I have no idea what did happen.
What would a perfect or at least good SAR response on this one look like to you.
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Omot
Trad climber
The here and now
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Jul 29, 2009 - 10:19pm PT
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Chief, we're with you on this.
Thanks for your efforts to learn from this experience and drive improvements that can save a life.
Tomo
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Bob Harrington
climber
Bishop, California
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Jul 29, 2009 - 10:32pm PT
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What a sad, sad thread. Starts out noting how busy the Inyo SAR team has been and quickly morphs to lawyers, congressmen, fartwads on SAR, and investigating previous incidents. I've been a volunteer for Inyo SAR for twelve years, and this thread just makes me want to cry.
Chief: Good on your effort, sorry the outcome wasn't better. I don't have any knowledge of the operation that you were involved in, so I can't shed any light on how decisions were made. Nor would I publicly; I'm just a grunt. I do know that you are making some mighty nasty insinuations that you apparently can't talk about because they are under some kind of "investigation." If you can't talk about it, then... just... don't... talk... about... it.
You have a totally unrealistic expectation for helo response time on the eastside. I've sat for hours and hours and hours in the Lone Pine airport waiting for a ship that was only 30 minutes away. The only helicopter based in the county is the USFS helo in Independence, and that's only there May - Sept. Military has been much less available since we got involved militarily in Iraq/Afghanistan. Heh, don't waste your breath on Lemoore. My understanding is that military only launches on live victims, not recoveries, though they will do recoveries if the situation develops into that. Presently, the Indy fire helo and CHP are our main resources for air support. Obviously, none of these resources are sitting around waiting for us to call, and obtaining air support is a perennial and difficult consideration in managing our operations.
Ron: I understand that it's been a trying couple of weeks, but I have to tell you, the notion of "some fartwad on SAR who never even got there" and that the this guy got "blown off by SAR" are the most offensive things I've ever read on Supertopo. You're not slagging on some anonymous supertopo poster; you're slagging on a group of volunteers that give up a lot of their time, blood, sweat, tears, and money to help other people.
Everybody else: Understand that SAR response time in the mountains is slow due to many circumstances; be prepared to take care of yourselves. Temple Crag is not Swan Slab.
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Jul 29, 2009 - 11:21pm PT
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Bob with all due respect to you and ALL SAR everywhere, I was aiming this at the fartwad who posted his thoughts. I have all the respect for all those that work to save lives, but as I said, I usually don't get too involved with personal battles here, but this person was TOTALLY out of line. I do apologize to all those that took offense to what I said, I am sorry. My comments were aimed only at this one individual not at a whole group. Again ,my apologies if offense was taken, but I will not retract my comments to the individual who hides behind a fake name and blasts individuals who's intentions seem on the level.
Peace
Ron
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powderdan
Social climber
mammoth lakes
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Jul 29, 2009 - 11:57pm PT
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more yellow tape!
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The Quief
climber
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Jul 30, 2009 - 12:01am PT
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It seems as if my initial post is being misinterpreted, so I have deleted it.
I posted that in direct response to some things The Chief said. But now that he has deleted his posts, mine seems out of place.
His endless blabbing gets old after a while, and most of the time it's easy enough to ignore him. But I didn't want to sit back and let him badmouth the hardworking individuals of SAR. So I attempted some satire, and I guess it didn't go over too well.
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tom woods
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Jul 30, 2009 - 12:20am PT
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Bob- thanks for the post. I don't want to cry, but I got to stand up for my freinds.
If there is one piece of info I could get out to people in the backcountry is that rescues take a long time.
We see it on Whitney all the time, very unrealistic expectations of what SAR can do for them. Say you want help because of altitude sickness. You could sit down for four/five hours while SAR attempts to bring you oxygen, or you can walk four five hours and resolve the situation yourself.
Chief's situation is different of course, and we don't know the medical condition involved. I'm starting to think CPR is worse for the guy doing it than the victim. My wife did it on a guy a while back, she had trouble with it for sure.
Anyway, there may be a valid point here about caring for the guy who was doing the compressions. I don't know what was done or not done Friday. The job got done, the question is should more have been done.
As Cragsman says, we don't know the facts. So in a sense this whole discussion is low on the utility scale. There may be a medical lesson here as well at some point.
I'm done for now.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jul 30, 2009 - 03:03am PT
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It was alluded to previously, but it should be very clearly stated: when the guy went pulseless, he was irretrievably gone, and there was nothing that could have helped in that setting.
With a simple heart attack with lack of pulse due to the right rythym, an AED might have rescucitated if applied in under 6 minutes (We are now talking in the under 5% range). However, this was not a simple heart attack. The underlying pathology essentially has a 100% fatality rate in the field when progressed to cardiac arrest.
The guy was gone when he went down, and all the SAR in the world there in 15 minutes could not have changed that.
But at any rate, a CPR case in the field is a dead case. If any response could have been redirected to help a situation that had ANY chance of a live victim, that was the right call to make, 100% of the time. Remember that the primary goal is to help people live, not to make people feel good.
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tomtom
Social climber
Seattle, Wa
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Jul 30, 2009 - 10:26am PT
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Making accusations and then deleting the posts.
Ugh.
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 30, 2009 - 11:07am PT
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Many years ago, early 90's, some guy fell into the gorge between the bottom of the upper Yosemite falls and the lower falls. He was in the water for a long time, hours before sar response got to him.
A litter raising system was initiated to get him out of there and half way up he went into full cardiac arrest.
The litter attendant with him administered immediate cpr and brought him back.
After full evacuation to the clinic he walked out of there that evening. His core temperature at the Valley medical clinic when they received him was 80 degrees.
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tom woods
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Jul 30, 2009 - 01:16pm PT
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For the record, I was aware of the call out. It was on my message machine when I got home at 6:00pm. I don't know when the call out occurred because the date and time on my answering machine are not set. There was no cancellation callout to members at home, which there often are.
Also, chief, if you can help get us bigger badder helos, that would most definitely be awesome. I think the short haul is used too frequently here. Different helos have different protocols. The Park Service can short haul a victim with an attendant, so they come sometimes. How that gets done, I don't know.
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dmalloy
Trad climber
eastside
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Jul 30, 2009 - 03:05pm PT
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with all due respect for your previous experience, your obvious commitment, and your recent heroic effort, I would suggest that you slow down, take a deep breath, and let things sit for a few days before you continue. One way or the other Inyo SAR is going to be a bureaucratic organization governed by rules and policies that will change slowly and with input from many sources. Your current approach as a one-man wrecking ball seems likely to be counter-productive, no matter how honorable your goals are.
An unfortunate fact about many human systems is that they are resistant to change that is externally initiated. If your goal is to create positive change, rather than to assuage your own grief and anger, you might be more likely to be successful by working through the Inyo SAR structure, even if you have doubts about the level of competence or commitment of some within that structure.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jul 30, 2009 - 04:02pm PT
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Git out the popcorn...
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Chris2
Trad climber
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Jul 30, 2009 - 04:07pm PT
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Shut the fvck up, Donny.
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dmalloy
Trad climber
eastside
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Jul 30, 2009 - 04:38pm PT
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hey bargainhunter, if you are going to tread on sacred turf, at least fill in the details.
Walter Sobchak
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kev
climber
CA
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Jul 30, 2009 - 04:48pm PT
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Yo Bargain,
"Do you ever think about all of the resources squandered on this sh#t? BFD. People get hurt, people die."
Great attitude - hope you're not SAR.
kev
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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Jul 30, 2009 - 05:06pm PT
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I always liked the idea that rescues and choppers were not waiting and ready to come at the first request. That rescues in the backcountry were not available, so DFU. That helicopters weren't flying over our heads, and in wild places, in the High Sierra.
Providing immediate helo response when requested by SAR/non-sar sounds a little more like the loss of commitment and responsibility, and shrinks the map even more.
It sounds like priority should be a concern before choppers lift off. Triage is an important part of determining when a Helo should fly, isn't it?
Edit: Chief, I didnt see your post of 2:01 before I posted. My thoughts above are not directed at your incident.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Jul 30, 2009 - 06:18pm PT
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"It was HAPE, not an MI as every assumes that I was dealing with."
If there was not an MI, why were you giving CPR? Or do you mean you were giving CPR without the C?
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Jul 30, 2009 - 06:28pm PT
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Chief, did you call it in as HAPE?
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jul 30, 2009 - 11:40pm PT
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If you go back and read my post, you will realize that I did know that HAPE was the pathology involved.
Cardiac Arrest as an end result of HAPE is essentially untreatable in the field. CPR does not work. If you don't understand the pathology of HAPE, you will probably not understand why, but that is the truth.
http://books.google.com/books?id=inud-udaRFwC&pg=RA1-PA1122&lpg=RA1-PA1122&dq=HAPE+CPR&source=bl&ots=7ExI3r5ERg&sig=h8oLO4cDtmtXmA3F2Vp_LHYJdEo&hl=en&ei=kmFySuaBGYTYsQPt_dzZCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4#v=onepage&q=HAPE%20CPR&f=false
The ONLY thing (but very unlikely) that might have altered the course of things was to STOP. Increasing exertion at altitude to try to get back to the trailhead did not help the situation. On the trail where this happened, to get out, one must go UPHILL to get to the TH, unless one knows the old alternate route out to the road, which is all downhill.
Could the use of nifedipine have made a difference, pre-arrest? Perhaps. However, that would not be a commonly carried medication, even by a guide.
Increased exertion to attempt to hike out was undoubtedly an aggravating factor (as I understand happened), exertion raises pulmonary artery pressure, worsening the illness.
http://www.high-altitude-medicine.com/AMS-medical.html#HAPE-therapy
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rincon
Trad climber
SoCal
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Jul 31, 2009 - 09:30am PT
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Was the HAPE victim being guided?
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whatmeworry2
Mountain climber
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Jul 31, 2009 - 05:41pm PT
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While not specifically related to this incident or other time-critical incidents in any way, there is a tendency within the various official bureaucracies to be inwardly looking. The politics (e.g., "We can do this on our own and don't need any outside help.") often get in the way until many hours have been squandered.
Mutual aid is always a good option. There are a number of very capable SAR teams and resources in the state but it takes a request from the local official agency in charge, usually the Sheriff's office, to make the request (the idea of calling LASD directly to try and get Air-5 isn't going to get you very far). A mutual aid response can always be cancelled, but if you've got help rolling and you need them they will be that much closer....
Getting people to the Eastern Sierra does take some time but you'd be surprised about how quickly resources can get on scene. Some teams will drive through the night to arrive at the incident command post, etc. at 4 or 5 a.m. ready to put a dozen trained people (who've slept on the drive) in the field.
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rincon
Trad climber
SoCal
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[url="http://www.ksrw.sierrawave.net/eastern-sierra-news/2335-search-and-rescue-handles-two-deaths-injury-and-altitude-sickness]http://www.ksrw.sierrawave.net[/url]
The Chief, good on you for trying to save the dude. Was he your partner or was he soloing? Just trying to figure this out.
If he was with a guide service, do you know which one? Lucky someone had a Sat phone, not that it helped though.
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whatmeworry2
Mountain climber
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It will definitely be interesting to read The Chief's detailed account of what happened. I am encouraged to hear that he is open to sharing information from a very difficult situation - Thanks.
I'm very curious if some of the early signs of AMS were appearing well before the trip actually began at the TH. Signs that the subject may have ignored or not been readily apparent to those on the trip once the approach hike started.
I've seen at least one case where the progression of symptoms was extremely rapid (~30 minutes) running from the mild (headache)to severe(ataxia)in the intervening time. In that case the elevation gain from symptom onset (reported by subject) to "emergency" (observed ataxia, rales, altered mental status) was a couple hundred feet. Two of us were experienced mountain rescuers and immediately went into DIYSAR mode and assisted (e.g., almost carrying) the subject down. Waiting was not an option. The deterioration was astonishingly rapid. We were lucky - our friend was small and we had a pure descent to deal with vs. any uphill.
Dropping ~2,000 feet almost totally resolved the situation but the incident pretty much ended that trip. Pretty scary stuff.
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