Classic Bachar Sandbags


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Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 15, 2009 - 09:42pm PT
The recent thread about Caliente got me thinking. There's certainly a bunch of them for some reason. One that comes to mind is Energy Crisis, 10d. Maybe he was just so strong he couldn't tell.

Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Jul 15, 2009 - 09:53pm PT
i thought energy crisis was closer to 11+, but hey, i'm just me.
Ed Bannister

Mountain climber
Riverside, CA
Jul 15, 2009 - 09:54pm PT
The Kid

turns out there is more than one kind of sandbag

Sport climber
Venice, Ca
Jul 15, 2009 - 10:12pm PT
D7 on the Diamond, at 5.10d
Left Ski Track free, at 5.10a
Second to last pitch on the Lost Arrow Tip free, at 5.10c (first done free by JB and Tobin S.)

and many more . . .


right here, right now
Jul 15, 2009 - 10:47pm PT
Oh fer cryin' out loud...
Find me one that ISN'T graded a cuple-three letters on the low side.
Fukksakes people: belly up to the bar for spankings.

It Don't Mean a Thing If It Ain't That Swing.


Social climber
Flatland, Ca
Jul 15, 2009 - 11:12pm PT
Ratings are purely subjective.. get past them and you can begin climbing.....


Tar Edit - Good Call, Tarbuster
Russ Walling

Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
Jul 15, 2009 - 11:15pm PT

I liked when John would call something a "real A", meaning an honest 5.11a.

Problem was, this usually meant it was leaning more towards 11c/d

Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Jul 15, 2009 - 11:19pm PT
i recall he rated "hear my train" and "drivin' south" 5.11a...oh johnny, we hardly knew ye...

Social climber
Newport, OR
Jul 15, 2009 - 11:32pm PT
Sole Fusion...Was there for the FA but couldn't follow it...

Back in time..
Jul 16, 2009 - 12:41am PT
Watusi Soul Fusion, not for me but what a ride for JB & Moffat!

Boulder climber
Jacksonville, Fl
Jul 16, 2009 - 02:17am PT
Ummagumma kicked my ass at Stoney. JB said it was "5.11" where I found it to be every bit the V6 it is now graded.

I personally love being sandbagged.

Topic Author's Reply - Jul 16, 2009 - 09:24am PT
I disagree that "ratings are purely subjective". Certainly opinions are but climbing ratings always tend toward a consensus of opinion. Notice the BY is rated 11c, not 10d which I think is what it was originally graded. Climbs have an actual degree of difficulty and the rating is an attempt to describe it.

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jul 16, 2009 - 10:15am PT
I agree with Fosburg, ratings should, through consensus, become reasonably clear indicators of difficulty. Original ratings are often off because of a number of reasons, some of which involve the ego. Over time a consensus rating is best. Isn't the original idea behind creating ratings to inform people so that they are on a climb appropriate for them?

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Jul 16, 2009 - 10:37am PT
Although I have all the respect in the world for JB, I have always had problems with the idea of "sandbagging".

If someone honestly mis-grades by pure accident, that is fine, and the proper grade will soon be revealed.

As Donini suggests, ego is often involved.

Is it because it's fun to watch someone flail on a route you "call" 10c, even though you know darn good and well it's probably 5.11?

I climbed at a small area where they had "little guy" syndrome. Everything there was undergraded. There were no grades that agreed with anywhere else I've climbed in the rest of the country for 35 years, and they knew it. But it made them feel tough to watch so called 5.10 climbers struggle on their 5.8.

It's so easy to say "Oh gosh, I thought it was 10c, I guess I was just feeling good."

But to me, it's dangerous to put a 10b climber trying to push his grade to 10c on an 11b-R. 'Specially since we should all be pretty into safety these days, at least for those around us if not so much for ourselves.

I'm not going after John, I'm going after the idea of sandbagging being cute.

Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
Jul 16, 2009 - 10:43am PT
Sheep Trail at Red Rocks on the Ragged Edges Cliff. 5.8 at the time, since upgraded to 5.10. I hucked on up 30 ft or so, couldn't find any pro or even see any pro in the future. Hung around until I pumped, tried to downclimb before popping off onto two gracious spotters. Out in the parking lot I ran into Gray Thompson, an old timer who asked me what I climbed. After telling my story, he told me, "same thing happened to me twenty years ago".

I was proud to have been spanked by JB.

Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
Jul 16, 2009 - 10:47am PT
There were no grades that agreed with anywhere else I've climbed in the rest of the country for 35 years, and they knew it.

Try Seneca Rock.

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Jul 16, 2009 - 10:51am PT
I've been there too. I'm familiar, same problem but not as bad as the other.....
Double D

Jul 16, 2009 - 11:14am PT
Gait of Power... John and Ron told Price and I that it "might be 5.11, you know if you consider New Dimensions 5.11"


beneath the valley of ultravegans
Jul 16, 2009 - 11:51am PT
How about Moongerms and A Love Supreme? You almost never hear of folks doing those routes.

Sport climber
Venice, Ca
Jul 16, 2009 - 12:32pm PT
I can't remember what the thing is called but there are two cracks on the back of Stoney, about 50 feet long, with a traverse (famous) at the bottom that Kamps used to lap forever. The left of these cracks is about 11a strenuous, and Bachar used to solo up and DOWN it, calling it 10a. It was just crazy watching him out at Stoney BITD.

Ummagumma was originally rated a "true" 11a, unlike those fake ones.

paul roehl

Boulder climber
Jul 16, 2009 - 12:54pm PT
I think that's "crystal cracks" out at S.P.

Trad climber
In the mountains... somewhere...
Jul 16, 2009 - 03:37pm PT
Largo, those are the Sculpture Cracks and the left one is 10c tops.

The worst I got it from JB was probably on 'Steap Thrills' on Low Profile Dome. Woodward, Mariah, Jim Thompson and myself were hanging out at the base eating lunch and we watched 3 different parties try to get on the route. Nobody got the opening moves. In my usual way I was making fun of them when Johnny put me on the spot and suggested I do the thing. Well let me just say that climb wasn't even close to the 11a that John rated it then. I got it clean and Johnny followed it clean but I thought it was damn hard. And the worst part is that the start isn't even close to the crux.

About a year later I was there with another group and none of them could do the opening moves. I went up and did them and then down climbed. There was no way I wanted to lead the real crux of that thing again. I got heckled furiously for my display but I can live with that.

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