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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
North of the Owyhees
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Jun 20, 2009 - 10:09am PT
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Merchants should just stick to selling stuff.
It's no one's business but your own what you will do with it.
I HAVE a Mom.
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Rock!...oopsie.
Trad climber
pitch above you
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Jun 20, 2009 - 11:10am PT
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Hey JoeSimo,
OK the cordage thing it absolutely hilarious...but:
Expanding on donini's reluctant defense, can you imagine the nonstop stream of people making ludicrous requests that the EMS employee had to get through to reach the point you describe? His common sense has been killed off by countless customer questions that defy common sense. The NYC EMS has got to have the worst gumby/competent ratio in the world.
If someone tells you that they want to buy some light hiking boots to climb Mt. Washington in January, do you just smile, hand him the boots and wait for the newspaper story?
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tinker b
climber
the commonwealth
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Jun 20, 2009 - 11:32am PT
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i was at nomad in joshua tree getting a trigger kit for a cam i had found. it was a single stem #1 bd with a replaced sewn webbing loop and wasn't that worn (my cams look a bit worse.) so the guy behind the counter tells me i should replace the webbing. i didn't think it could be that old since the single stem cams came out in the mid 90's, and if it had been already replaced once it couldn't be that old.
his response was "you're not going to listen to a shop guy when he tells you something should be replaced!"
he wanted me to buy some webbing and tie a knot. i know a lot of you old dudes like that style, but i don't. he was pretty determined that what i had was unsafe, and i was pretty annoyed that he had no idea of what my experience was and really didn't try to figure it out. (he was at least a decade younger than me.)
i wondered if he would have been so determined to convince me that i was so unsafe had i been a man.
this was a few years ago, and i still climb on that cam.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Jun 20, 2009 - 12:08pm PT
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I bought a new harness at the EMS in Soho a month or so agi and the guy was actually great. He helped me narrow down by price and gave a few explanations on what one harness had over the other. Didn't laugh when I asked who the hell would be buying the BD DayGlo orange and yellow ones. Even took each harness out of the zip case for me and said to just leave them on the floor when finished, and he'd repack them.
Then, when I got to the check out and the price scanned higher than the label on the shelves, he adjusted it with a click of the keys to give me the lower price.
On another note...and this is sort of embarrassing.....
When I was still a n00b and had bought my first stash of gear(nuts, hexes, tricams and some BD oval biners and slings) I realized I hadn't enough biners to rack the stuff and keep my slings tripled up.
Having seen, on rc.com I'm sure, comments about keychain biners for nonclimbing-specific use.... it occurred to me to go to the hardware shop and get some of these toy biners. My intention was to use them as racking biners only....
So, there I go, and they do have some keychain sized ones, but then I notice some clippy link things. I don't know what these things are for - something to do with house construction stuff, I suppose.
So I figure "Hmmm, those are more durable than the heychain biners. Maybe I can use those! So, I pick 6 or so out of a bin and take them to the check out. Somehow I tell the guy I am a rock climber(oh, but I told EVERY BODY who would listen that I was a rock climber of course).
He gets the look of "THIS is a job for Safety Man! And SHE looks an idiot in need of being told!" He says "You know - these are not rated to take the kind of force needed in climbing." I explained the racking thing to him, and he looked at me like I was the dumbass that I was, and says "Okay, but PROMISE me you won't use them for actual climbing."
So, good on that guy. And luckily, I realized my idea of saving $4 a "biner" by using those heavy, clunky things was pretty stupid before I got far enough along to actually have my set up seen in public.....
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The Chef
climber
Topsfield Ma
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Jun 20, 2009 - 12:27pm PT
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Hey all,
I'm gonna toss a few things out there and try not to piss anybody off. First off I work for REI in one of the MA stores. I coordinate and trained a group of trainers who train our new hires, as well as providing some of the training myself. It's tough to attract folks with "experience intact" to any retail store. This is largely due to the rate of pay and erratic hours.
I can not speak to the training practices at other retailers. I only know what I know.
A lot of my customers are 9to5ers, college educated, professionals. (Please hold your "that's because your so expensive quips") We at the brick & mortar stores try to serve our customers as best we can. The funny thing is, a fair amount of you know more than we do when you walk in the door. We do our best though, not to assume our customers experience/ability level. We attain that by asking our customers tons of questions. It's very difficult when our customers are not clear when answering and I ask everyone, please, if you don't need help and know what you want tell us. (unless you ask for dehydrated water, which is just good fun) Questioning our customers is how less experienced staff get the information we need to get a customer the right product. It also allows our more experienced staff to chat/bond with said customer. This lends credibility to our staff and allow us suggest complimentary items. How many times have we all gotten to the cliff, campsite, whatever and said "crap I cant believe I forgot that again". Sometimes we can help you avoid that. I buy (for myself) and sell (to customers) products not designed specifically for what they are doing because many times items work for many sports. I also know enough to understand that when a customer says, "I want one of those", they generally know what to do with it.
Instruction, instruction, instruction. There is enough literature out there for one to be able to figure the basics out before they go out and endanger themselves and others. If you have never been on the employees side, it's really difficult. Most retail stores, big chain or not, seem to have a non-instruction policy. There are a ton of noobs out there that want to know how to do things, like "how does this Gri-Gri work" or "how do I tie ropes together to rappel", next comes, "I'm going out climbing, for the first time, with a friend tomorrow". If I show this person, they go home a toss a few back, wake up with a headache tell their friend they know how to belay, feed the rope backward, and REI ( REI has more money than me) gets sued for not teaching properly, because I'm not an instructor. It really happens. These aren't climbers suing. They are well to do kids or adults with lawyers seeing $$$$$$$-seven figures. Also, that's what instructors and guides get paid for... ... and have insurance for.
You who "know what you're doing" don't need our help. you've been in the game long enough to take care of yourselves. I give you what you want and get the hell out of the way. I teach our new staff to do the same.
Thank you if you got through this.
Joe.
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JoeSimo
Trad climber
New York
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Jun 20, 2009 - 12:46pm PT
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I suppose I can see the challenge of working in a retail store like this and dealing with the amazing variety of customers. I'm sure 5% are actually experienced climbers.
The EMS in SOHO is actually pretty decent. One guy working there really knows his stuff. I was referring to 2-3 other EMS stores I have been to around the country.
I suppose at this point I know what I need and know where to get it online for cheaper. I think I buy everything online these days except maybe shoes. Though my last pair I got online because I found them cheap. I knew what size I needed so it worked out perfectly.
Stay strong climbing store retail clerks... stay strong....
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ps
Trad climber
slc, ut
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Jun 20, 2009 - 12:57pm PT
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Hehe. I have a Twin that I use for glacier and moderate alpine rock as well.
However, I've been looking at the Joker lately (Beal is the maker of it?), and I plan on picking it up (or the other one... Sterling Nano?.. can't remember). I like the fact that it is rated for twin, single, and double techniques.
To be fair, not all store folks are like that. I've had some great recommendations from the guys at IME in SLC. Great guys, tons of experience. I've found that it's worth my time to ask them their opinion. IMO, find a small store that has folks with lots of climbing experience. You get some great beta and support the locals = win.
Sorry you ran into that guy.
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hooblie
climber
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Jun 20, 2009 - 01:02pm PT
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i guess bartenders to the sauced face a similar dilema, wanting to evaluate their customer, limit their liablity by not providing beta on how to drive drunk, yet rack up another sale and get them out the door without a bunch of bellyaching over hurt feelings. drunks and climbers, searching for respect in deep end of the assigned risk pool
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
Sprocketville
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Jun 20, 2009 - 01:12pm PT
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it does not matter what kind of checkout line you are in, the store who has the fastest particle flow over the led scanner wins.
you want those horny robots to have sweaty armpits.
well, i mean, from a distance that is.
and don't drip anything on my food.
oh, and if you are going to bezerkley to check out climbing stores, the North Face is more like the South Face, just a bunch of freaks going thru the 99 cent flip flop bins, fresh off the docks of oak town.
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apogee
climber
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Jun 20, 2009 - 01:43pm PT
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Joe the Chef:
Your efforts (and those in similar retail management/training positions) to train employees to be supportive, yet not overly intrusive to the customer are very much appreciated. Querying a customer regarding their needs so as to better serve them is one thing. Trying to assess a customer's competence so as to 'protect' them is annoying, impossible, intrusive and inappropriate to do, and a very good reason not to return to your store.
"If I show this person, they go home a toss a few back, wake up with a headache tell their friend they know how to belay, feed the rope backward, and REI ( REI has more money than me) gets sued for not teaching properly, because I'm not an instructor."
Having been tangentially involved with the outdoor retail industry for several decades, I know that the fears of litigation related to employees instruction of the use of technical equipment was, at one time, a real fear and concern. That was at a time when climbing was beginning to become 'mainstream', and retail stores started popping up to serve the need. This fear of liability was based more on potential than on reality, and the fact that the social attitude towards risk (i.e. climbing) was much different- climbing was seen as an extremely risky activity by society at large.
Times have changed. Climbing is now somewhat 'mainstream' (apologies for the use of that word), and it is more socially acceptable- this acceptability has trickled into the courtroom and legal system, too. (Appropriately, in my opinion), there is more of an expectation that individuals/participants/customers hold responsibility for their own choices and actions- the legal bar for proving negligence on the part of an instructor or guide is much higher than it was 20 or 30 years ago. (I am sure that retail stores are still sued for various reasons including customers who misused a piece of equipment sold them, but it is probably much less frequent than feared. If you have documented examples of trends- not just anecdotal, isolated incidents- I'd be interested in seeing them.)
All of this is to say that it is time that retail stores that are still holding on to 'anti-instructional policies' need to move into the present, and let the customer make their own decisions. You don't run into this kind of stuff in a Home Depot when a customer walks in to buy a chainsaw or a pneumatic air gun, both of which can easily maim or kill if used improperly- why should it be any different with climbing equipment?
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Jun 20, 2009 - 03:05pm PT
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Yeah people think cause they work at a retail store they know everything.
Everyone knows that posting on climbing forums is what makes you know everything.
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
North of the Owyhees
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Jun 20, 2009 - 03:33pm PT
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It's true, ain't it?
I know EVERYthing now............hehe.
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RDB
Social climber
way out there
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Jun 20, 2009 - 03:43pm PT
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Try buying some 2" tube these days and see what kind of responses you get on a "swami". :)
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The Chef
climber
Topsfield Ma
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Jun 20, 2009 - 04:01pm PT
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Hey Apogee,
Thanks,
As far as the "I show this guy and he" quote. That is an extreme example, and has not happened as far as I know. It's more like I stayed up all night sorting gear & packing and drove for hours with no sleep to the crag.
I don't know if a non-instruction policy is good or bad. I suppose it is both, because some folks don't have much in the way of common sense and that you can't teach. I follow it because it is our policy at this time. If there is carelessnes on either side, and a lawsuit, I hope the justice system will do the right thing. Sometimes (probably not often though) a company will pay the defendant just to get it over with. The lawsuit thing bothers me because no matter who is right or wins, it still costs money and ties up the legal system. Myself; I don't ask employees how this or that works. I'd like to believe that I know everything, but I don't. I figured out my easy-daisies by using them. I learned to place pro by seconding and checking the placements I was cleaning & placing gear at ground level at local crags, wiggling it around and torquing it this way and that, weighting it, etc.
I agree that people need to take personal responsibility and suck it up when they make a mistake. I read a story about a couple who were skiing in BC and went out of bounds, they were lost for nine days. Tragically the wife expired after seven days and now the husband is suing the SAR team for not rescuing them in time. I don't know the details of it and maybe there was negligence on the part of the SAR teams in the area. What if they didn't exsist? What if there was no safety net (SAR team) to catch people when they fall. Would they still take those chances and try something risky...
I'm sorry, this is getting off topic. I don't want to hit any nerves. I've known people on both sides. Again, I'm sorry.
Anyway, I think there's truth to both sides. As I said before, the pool of new-hires that walk in with knowledge intact, who will accept retail base pay, has shrunk considerably. I work in every department of our store, and have found that by knowing the gear we sell and asking tons of questions (and listening to the answers) I can help 95% of my customers. I'm not an expert on climbing and there are many things I would not want to teach to a my customers. I don't believe you need to be an expert to sell gear, but to instruct I feel differently. I (I'm not being funny) value their lives enough to not do them that dis-service, and we teach our employees to hold the same values. besides, giving crappy advice is bad for business.
Hey, I'm just some schmoe who's tryina do right and lead by example, imagine that.
Joe.
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apogee
climber
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Jun 20, 2009 - 04:43pm PT
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Joe the Chef-
Does REI (either your store, your district, or company-wide) have a clearly articulated, documented 'non-instruction' policy for their employees that work in the climbing department, or is it more of an oral tradition-type of policy that has been passed down for many years from manager to manager, employee to employee?
In either case, have you ever asked your supervisors, or better yet, REI's corporate risk management department, as to if or why this policy exists?
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Ricardo Carlos
Trad climber
Off center, CO.
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Jun 20, 2009 - 04:51pm PT
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tradmanclimbs
I forgot my harness a few weeks ago and tied directly into the rope. that effin hurts!! Those guys were tough birds......
Ha Ha same thing with me but the guy almost did not climb with me.
We did three climbs in the time it would have taken to walk back to the car.
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The Chef
climber
Topsfield Ma
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Jun 20, 2009 - 05:37pm PT
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Apogee,
I saw an online copy of our policy a few years ago. It was short and to the point. I don't believe it has ever been a terminable offence. To instruct that is. Our tenured staff, (some have been at the store since it opened in 1987, and climbed for longer), have always held that policy very close.
It has always, to my knowledge, been about,
#1 liability
#2 customer safety
I would like to be able to share what I know, but I can't even show someone how to tie a triple fisherman's when re-slinging old hexes & nuts & things.
Actually, it's the same thing with tying boats down to peoples cars when they buy them. We can set a boat on a customers car, but we are not supposed to tie it down or teach them knots.
Joe.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jun 20, 2009 - 05:57pm PT
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I forgot my harness a few weeks ago and tied directly into the rope. that effin hurts!!
Three or four wraps and a bowline on a coil and it's not bad.
Unless you are hang dogin.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 20, 2009 - 08:19pm PT
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Not pointing any fingers here.
Just saying,....
LOL
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Aya K
Trad climber
New York
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Jun 20, 2009 - 09:04pm PT
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Just FYI - having worked for EMS on and off for ten years or so, including a few at the SOHO store.. it's true, you would not believe the stupid stupid stupid questions I would get asked in the climbing department daily. In response to the OP - personally I'd be happy to sell a 1/2 rope singly to someone, but given the number of times beginners picked up a 1/2 rope to use for toproping at the gunks based on a its price (not that I don't personally do that all the time, let's be honest here, when they're clearly beginners I feel obligated to do the right thing and be like dude, you want a single rope... and then explain the difference) I would always ask someone picking up just one 1/2 rope if they knew that it was a 1/2 rope (yes, you do? Ok, just checking, because you know, people don't always notice that - and nobody ever expressed any annoyance, actually usually I got a hey, thanks for checking)
And yes, not too many actual climbers at the EMS stores I've worked at - usually a couple-three besides me who I would consider knowledgeable, and a bunch who've gone out climbing a few times with those people. Prefer not to get into the situation we had at SOHO, of course, the guy that ran the climbing dept was all ego, very strong climber physically, but only experience was at the gunks and could not possibly fathom that there were different ways to do things (You use your rope to clove hitch into the anchor? You like to live on the edge don't you? wtf????) and was all about spewing to impress the multitude of newbies that trickled into the store from the local gyms. For example, we didn't stock any aid gear (maybe because he had never aid climbed and didn't know anything about it, and also because we didn't have a ton of people looking for aid gear, though occasionally they'd wander in) but he DID make sure that we stocked RURPS. Why? Not because we ever sold a single one but so every time some newbie came in and was all dazzled by the gear, he could pick it up and be like here is the world's smallest piton! Can you imagine climbing out over this, being all sketched out, and this is your only protection? Oh I need to shut up because I'm going to get myself all annoyed even though I haven't been there in over a year!
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