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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jun 18, 2009 - 11:34pm PT
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Experienced alpine rock folk...
I'd like to spend a lot of time on High Sierra trade routes this summer (something new to me).
What rope set up do y'all prefer?
I use a 60m x 9.7 in the Valley (and most places), but was thinking about getting a 50m x skinnier single line for climbing with bigger approaches. Will I miss the extra 10m?
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Jun 18, 2009 - 11:42pm PT
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I like using a skinny 60 like a 9.4 or 9.1. Done a few routes with slobmonster where we used one double rope, an 8.5 I think?
I don't know that I couldn't get away with 10m less, but I think it'd be more noticable on rappels than on leads?
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 18, 2009 - 11:51pm PT
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(Knocks on wood) I'm not looking at any routes with raps.
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crøtch
climber
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Jun 19, 2009 - 12:02am PT
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On the moderate Sierra trades you're not going to find any 60m enduro pitches. I would wager that you'll be doing a lot of simulclimbing and a shorter, skinnier rope works fine for that. 50m single or a 60m twin doubled up would be my recommendation.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 19, 2009 - 12:03am PT
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I'm planning to do routes that will be for the most part challenging enough for me to want a real belay...and probably a real tight one from above sometimes too!
I've never been very comfortable simulclimbing. :-(
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crøtch
climber
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Jun 19, 2009 - 12:14am PT
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If you are looking at harder routes with enduro pitches then that's a standard rockclimbing scenario which just happens to be in the mountains.
If you anticipate pitching things out, then go skinny and long. Maybe even a 9.1 70m so that you can take advantage of those stretches of easier climbing and make up time.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Jun 19, 2009 - 12:15am PT
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well, if you don't mind spending $$ and want to go real lightweight, a couple friends of mine just bought:
60m 8.9mm mammut serenity
2x DMM bugette belay devices
So far they've really liked it. The bugettes really save weight over any belay device I've seen, and I think they got them closeout online somewhere. They also use them with lightweight lockers, smaller than standard belay type lockers. Pretty slick setup. You could probably get the rope as a 50m too if that's what you wanted.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 19, 2009 - 12:25am PT
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I think I would use my 9.2 mm 80 m Nano Fusion, which is a great rope...
longer is better, more options all around and light.
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crøtch
climber
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Jun 19, 2009 - 12:28am PT
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I'm using "enduro" to mean both long and also sustained in difficulty.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Jun 19, 2009 - 12:28am PT
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A pair of 50m twins, 8.5mm. It's good to be redundant on the rope in the backcountry.
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
North of the Owyhees
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Jun 19, 2009 - 12:28am PT
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I like the whole twin skinnies gig for alpine.
2 9's, please.Or those 9.somethin's, I think.
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crackfiend
climber
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Jun 19, 2009 - 12:57am PT
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Saving weight on the belay device?????? get real, a buggette is not that much lighter than a atc and in the whole scheme of things a moot point.were not talking gri-gri vs an atc.. use a frikken muenter if youre that worried about an ounce of weight.. sorry for the rant but c'mon.... one option some here have not mentioned which I like is using a single 70m half rope,. One person ties into the middle w/ bolan on a bight and the other to each end. this way you can lead in 35m blocks which is usually sufficient, coil half the rope and tie in short for simul sections and be able to do a decent length rappel if need be. this is not ideal for all situations but works pretty slick quite often.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Jun 19, 2009 - 01:13am PT
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I say twin skinnies too, somewhere in the 8s. 60m. If you are going fast and easy you can leave one coiled. If things get enduro, you can double up. And, obviously, you can bail in a normal, rack preserving fashion.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jun 19, 2009 - 01:47am PT
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I use a shorter (120') skinny, single (5 falls) dry rope for the standard long-approach peaks (e.g. Mt. Humphreys), and long, easy routes such as the Matthes Crest traverse. I can think of very few summits that require anything worse than a little roped downclimbing, and the difference in weight between a half-length rope and a full-length one matters greatly on the death marches. If you do any snow and ice climbing, you'll appreciate the dry coating.
Of course, if you're talking about bigger climbs, use a regular-length rope, or better yet, a light 80m like Ed's. The flexibility in pitch length and retreat are well worth it.
John
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Jun 19, 2009 - 05:39pm PT
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As you can see, a lot of different attitudes/approaches. With time, I've gone to skinnier and longer ropes. For a serious route I would take a skinny single (currently using a 70m 9.1mm? Beal Joker). For an easy route I would take a single half rope in the 8.8mm range. The skinny ropes wear quicker, but I don't see it as much of a safety issue.
I've never needed the extra length for long pitches. Rather, I've given up on rapping with two ropes in the backcountry because of knot jams, stuck ropes, and pulling off rock. The longer rope is strictly for one rope rappels. A 35m rap is a good distance, anyway.
If you are sure you aren't going to rap, I think 50m would be plenty long. But plans can change: injury, weather, etc. Coming down 25m at a time will be a bit slower.
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BoKu
Trad climber
Douglas Flat, CA
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Jun 19, 2009 - 06:02pm PT
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When Munge and I did [url="http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=855721&tn=0
"]Snake Dike[/url] a while back, we took his 8.9mm or so 60m. It was a nice light cord but felt solid. I never had any qualms about leading on it.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jun 19, 2009 - 06:08pm PT
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60, 9.n, I live by simulcimbing and running pitches together, on Anything, long.
Astroman in 8.
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nutjob
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Jun 19, 2009 - 06:16pm PT
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I like the double rope strategy so you get more rope (longer raps, bail/recover from disasters, etc) and can split the weight between climbers (and I feel safer with the rope redundancy). For shorter sections, you can just uncoil one rope and fold it in half.
I've been doing 2 x 60m x 8mm ropes latey, used to do 2 x 60m x 9mm. I used the 9mm's last year on Hawkman's, 8mm's this year (perhaps foolishly given the chopper loose chimneys).
On Matthes Crest, I carried 1 x 60m x 8mm and used it for half a pitch around the north tower (and for a little downclimb overhanging handcrack for ~ 15 feet somewhere before the middle). I carried a 60m x 8mm (and so did my partner) on Conness North Ridge, but never uncoiled it on either trip there.
On Sun Ribbon Arete, I think we took one 60m x 8mm and folded it in half and simul'd most of the time. It would be very challenging to finish that climb in a day (even just basecamp-to-basecamp) without simul-climbing on 5.7 with minimal pro.
Edit: I also bought an ATC Guide because the old standard ATC was feeling sketchy on the raps, requiring too much arm strength, wrapping around the leg for extra friction, etc. I still do the leg rap just as a backup.
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tom woods
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Jun 19, 2009 - 06:33pm PT
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I have one of those skinny ropes, a 70m Mammut 8.9 or 9.2 or whatever. It stretches like a mo-fo so you really can't take a rest on it without falling ten feet. It's not very durable, and when it comes time to rap, 70 m doesn't get you out of needing to bring two ropes.
I won't buy one again. The two skinnies is the way to go if you are not simuling or totally sure you are going to make it. If you need two ropes, you have two. Big routes with raps, I think it's a good system.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Jun 19, 2009 - 06:48pm PT
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Really depends on whether the route is in your comfort zone (95% of backcountry climbing), or if you actually anticipate whipping (not common since it's obviously not a good idea to get injured in the backcountry in general). For the latter, double ropes or a thicker rope are best, since there tend to be more flakes, loose blocks, and sharp edges than on cragging routes. For hard routes, new routes, or comfort-pushing climbing in general, skimp on weight somewhere other than the rope. That's my 2 cents, but I don't trust skinny ropes to begin with since I'm well over 80kg, especially with a rack of gear, draws, lightweight hammer + bolt kit, water bottles, shoes, jacket, etc.
I remember that PMI once did some testing on 10.5 and 11mm ropes by simply increasing the test weight to 90 or 100kg, and they didn't do too well with an extra 10 or 20 kg. Can't imagine that all these super skinny modern ropes would be in good shape - and of course sharp edges, flakes, etc don't enter into the testing process.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Jun 20, 2009 - 05:13pm PT
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Yea, if you decide to take a whipper, I would rather have a fatter rope in the back country. But I just haven't read of that many cases where an accident has been caused (or made more severe) because of a skinny rope. In the backcountry, rockfall and weather is what does climbers in.
And regarding the comment above, carrying only one 70m rope does get you out of the need to carry two ropes to rap (no doubt there is some place in the Sierra you absolutely need to rap further than 35m, but it hasn't stranded me yet). I might do a few more raps to get down, but I have far, far fewer epics from stuck ropes.
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tooth
Mountain climber
Guam
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Jun 20, 2009 - 05:20pm PT
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I like a 50m for back country. Shorter, doesn't get stuck, lighter, etc.
But I buy a 70m first, and by the time I cut the ends off a few times it is a 50m.
I have a 70m mammut 9.6 or something, white/red. Really bouncy, which is fine since I never sit on it backcountry.
Has anyone tried Esprit ropes from Canada? I have seen one used once, years ago, it looked brutally tough, but it was really stiff as well. I like the glow-ends idea.
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Jun 20, 2009 - 06:09pm PT
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Backcountry: it covers such a range of climbing, I think we're talking past each other a bit here. I know I'm getting confused, and I've spent half my life up there.
The Hulk? North Pal? East Buttress of Whitney? All backcountry, but I'd take a different rope for each.
The Hulk is easy, just your standard Valley-Tuolumne rope. Same for backcountry projects that could become hard, except that with all the rough edges up there I'll expect it to wear out faster.
On North Pal lugging the thing trumps fall factor. I'll take a 7.8 x 60 ice floss. Plenty strong enough for leading steep snow -- even a long fall would be sliding. OK for 3rd to 5.6 above there. Double if gripped. Rappping back down the U-Notch is set up with anchors for a doubled 60. In a pinch deploy some of your 30' of 9/16" webbing, 2 rap rings and 2 titanium pins that live in the bottom of the alpine sack, right?
The East Buttress of Whitney (OK, Peter, the "Sunshine-Pewee") is kind of backcountry classic. The 5.7 is beyond solo or simul, but you won't likely fall either. There are lots of ledges, and the altitude is a big factor. Frankly, you guys recommending taking a 70 are dreaming. I go the opposite, a short rope. Less to carry, plenty of places to stop and belay, quick and easy anchoring.
Running pitches together on that kind of terrain seems improbable compared to sheer rope drag and, frankly, getting out of breath. I'm happy to stop short, throw a cordelette over a big block (20 seconds) and catch my breath while the partner moves up. My favorite rope at the moment is a 9.2 that had maybe 15' chopped off the end in some mishap. It's never too short in the backcountry.
Incidentally, a cool trick to go with it is a good old-fashioned sitting hip belay. Straddling just the right block you don't even need an anchor. (Did I just say that out loud?) Taking in rope is way faster than a belay device when the partner gets to easier terrain. Look for the right spots for it and you can do even shorter pitches and go faster.
Shorter yet, my most prized ropes are 60-80' chunks of Ice Floss, for the mostly 4th class (read: up to 5.5) climbs. You definitely want a belay, at least potentially, but there are ledges everywhere. With a solid hip belay and a bowline-on-a-coil, you can go mountaineering with nothing but that shorty rope. No harness, no hardware, and even body rap in a pinch.
OK, I hear 'em squirming in their seats now. Yes, the old fart will now shut up and let the kids take over the Alpine Zone.
Have fun!
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jun 20, 2009 - 10:08pm PT
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I gotta side with the old guy on this one.
(... and we all look at each other and say: which one.... "you talkin' tah ME? ... Ha ...)
DR's on it, I mean, in it.
Backcountry, as a term, cuts a wide swath.
60m X 8.2mm worked great on this five-pitch 5.6 on solid granite in Colorado:
(uh ... besides The Diamond, yes there is solid granite in Colorado, Hiamovi Tower here)
The 8.2 mm skinny single rope, on Colorado's Wetterhorn,
Supra nifty cord for the one long easy fifth class pitch:
25m X 11mm is the tidy ticket for third 'n fourth class with occasional fast-moving hip belays,
A fat short rope is easy to hold on to and small to stash:
(here on Ice Mountain, one of the Three Apostles)
Double 50m X 8.6mm = the perfect lightweight companions for 5.9+ in RMNP:
(Notchtop Southridge ... rock is sharp, weather comes early in the Rockies; nice to be able to get down)
In that high fallutin' Sierra, like on the Hulk, I think we used a single fatty 55m 10point something.
Now, on The Hulk, I would probably use a 70m X 9.4mm.
Here is a single 50m X 8.6mm deployed on the one technical pitch on that peak just before Mount Lyle:
And again the single 50m X 8.6mm on Matterhorn Peak:
On Temple Crag's Dark Star first buttress, we used the double 50m X 8.6mm
Sometimes in the high and lonesome, Ummmm, NO rope is just dandy:
I currently own a fresh pair of 60m X 8.6mm ropes.
But gosh, I hardly ever use them...................
I'd like to have something like a double set of 70m X 8.2mm
(Malcolm says PMI now rates their 8.2 mm ropes both for double AND half rope use)
...And maybe a 100m 8.9mm (just don't ask me to coil it)
okay kidding on that last one........
(except that Earl Wiggins fellah DID lead Big Pitches in the Black Canyon on a 300 Foot 9mm Single Rope)
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adam d
climber
CA
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Jun 20, 2009 - 10:17pm PT
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and Tarbuster provides definitive proof that...
It depends.
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