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Climbup
Trad climber
Roseville, CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jun 10, 2009 - 12:57am PT
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Does anyone know if there is a rappel route off the east wall at Lover's Leap?
I believe there is one down Psychedelic Tree, but I am not sure.
Any advice would be appreciated.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jun 10, 2009 - 12:59am PT
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Just walk off. Watch for rattler's though.!11!!
I dunno.
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Inner City
Trad climber
East Bay
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Jun 10, 2009 - 01:12am PT
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One could rappel a number of different routes on the East Wall itself. But it doesn't seem a thing to do. As BLuering said, just walk off. That "East Wall" route ranges far from right to left, not a rappel candidate.
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Salamanizer
Trad climber
Vacaville Ca,
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Jun 10, 2009 - 02:28am PT
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People have began rappelling down Fandango recently after it's being retrobolted by an ignorant party. However it is much faster to just walk off than rappel, plus you'd have to drag another rope up there for that.
I watched a party of two rappel the route a few weeks ago, took them about an hour and a half tying up the route in the process which I was wanting to climb. I ended up climbing two routes on East Wall in that time, walking off from both. I was sure to give them a big F.U. as I walked by on my way to the West Wall.
The rap route does serve as a convenient way to the base in full winter conditions as the decent trail is buried in deep snow. But that's about it, rapping East Wall any other time is just lame.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Jun 10, 2009 - 02:51am PT
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Sal- are you saying that bolts were added (retro) , or Re-bolted (replaced originals with new steel) on Fandango? I would hate to hear of bolts being added to any route at the leap.
OP- try and do 6 east wall routes with walk-offs, It's a big day but you'll feel better about yourself in the long run.
Descent should take you 10 -12 min from east wall,
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mrtropy
Trad climber
Nor Cal
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Jun 10, 2009 - 07:42am PT
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What is the story on Fandango? One of favorite routes routes.
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Trad
Trad climber
northern CA
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Jun 10, 2009 - 10:24am PT
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I posted something about the Fandango anchors under the Psychedelic Tree route beta a couple years ago, after I asked one of the FAs (George Conner) about it. I tried rapping from the top once with a 70 m rope and would not do it again, both because it IS faster to walk down plus it felt dangerous (rope just barely reached on the first [upper] rap).
There's a thread on Fandango here:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=24178
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msiddens
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Jun 10, 2009 - 10:33am PT
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I rapped it a few times......only a total n**b would take that long. One 70m makes it in two raps. Bolts are hidden under the lip (scary) and then one rap down.
Still though, its not that much quicker AND, its loose at the top. On a crowded weekend it might not be the most polite thing to do. Hardly worthy of an f-u though....sheesh.
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kev
climber
CA
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Jun 10, 2009 - 12:05pm PT
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Sal,
Whats the retro bolt story. Is some chopping in order?
Mucci, hahah 10-12 minutes yeah right you've forgot to figure in your safety meetings and my beer breaks...
kev
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Mr_T
Trad climber
The 7th Pin Scar on Serentiy Crack
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Jun 10, 2009 - 02:29pm PT
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Rap routes at the Leap - now there's an accident waiting to happen.
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mooser
Trad climber
seattle
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Jun 10, 2009 - 02:32pm PT
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The walk-off is cake. That'd definitely be my first choice. Of course that doesn't exactly answer your question.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Jun 10, 2009 - 03:11pm PT
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The word that sprung into my mind upon seeing this thread title: "clusterf$@K".
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Chris2
Trad climber
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Jun 10, 2009 - 03:25pm PT
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"Climbup" I challenge you to rapping the east wall vs. walking off. You name the price, I will be down before you.
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the Fet
Supercaliyosemistic climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jun 10, 2009 - 03:39pm PT
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I like rap routes where appropriate (e.g. Royal Arches), but a rap route on the East Wall would just be lame in so many ways.
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Climbup
Trad climber
Roseville, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 10, 2009 - 03:43pm PT
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I see the point and I agree. It really is safer and best to just walk off. Thanks for the wisdom!
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Salamanizer
Trad climber
Vacaville Ca,
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Jun 10, 2009 - 08:10pm PT
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mucci Yes, Fandango has been "Retro" bolted not re-bolted. Anchors with rappel rings were added to the first pitch where there were none before. Plenty of natural pro in the area for the hundreds of climbers who passed on through before they showed up. Anchors with rappel rings were also added to the top where good gear and three solid pins made up the original anchor.
These anchors showed up about two years ago. I eyeballed someone jumaring up a fixed line on Fandango one day. Curious I tried to see what he was up too. I could see he was doing some cleaning around the upper pitch and hoorah for that. Later that evening a friend told me he also ran into the guy and had a short conversation with him. The guy told him he was cleaning a new route, that it was about .10c, all Trad (apparently that doesn't mean sh#t these days) and called Eagles Way or some such B.S. My friend asked "isn't that where Fandango goes up?" and the guy said no, Fandango is further left. The next weekend I went to find this new route and observed that Fandango had been cleaned out (really clean) and new shiny bolted anchors had appeared.
Needless to say, I LMAO that this guy spent all that time cleaning the thing out and then gave it a grade of .10c. The thing is textbook 5.9, both pitches.
Sounds to me like it was just a mistake on behalf of an ignorant would be first ascentionest. Can't imagine someone adding anchors on purpose to an old route on East Wall.
Being kinda pissed about the anchors, I asked George Connor (who did the F.A.) a few days later if he knew anything about them. Of course he didn't, but being the incredibly nice and humble person he is said that even though it's a shame someone added bolts next to solid natural anchors, the damage has been done and that there is no point in removing them. Maybe more people will climb the route now that it's clean and the anchors are convenient. I agreed.
Fandango is an excellent route, two pitches, rated 5.9 and safe.
It used to be an exercise in botany where you had to climb with your nut tool in your teeth so you could excavate fingerlocks and gear placements. Now it's relatively clean and a great way to escape the East Wall circus. If you haven't been on it, you're missing out.
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Mr_T
Trad climber
The 7th Pin Scar on Serentiy Crack
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Jun 10, 2009 - 08:22pm PT
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On Psychedelic last year, I did see some shiny new bolts to the right of Fandango. These looked looked like the last pitch of a new sport line. I saw these from the top of the last pitch of Psychedelic Tree. The new shiny bolts were on the face to the right of the break (right of where the DanO ice fall forms). Looked like a cool line, but I wasn't sure how the loose sections worked. It's possible this joker added bolts to Fandango in addition to the Leap's "Wings of Steel".
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Jun 10, 2009 - 08:38pm PT
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Thanks Sal it's been 4 years since I did that route, Another all natural passage. New routing at the leap is very difficult. 5 guidebooks and alot of local routes never reported make for some difficult homework. I have put up many routes up there and was lucky enough to have few guys in the know to ask about certain areas.
The damage has been done, but what if it was on the P tree and not the classic/obscure fandango?
the crowbar and chisel are now coming on every trip.
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Mr_T
Trad climber
The 7th Pin Scar on Serentiy Crack
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Jun 10, 2009 - 08:57pm PT
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I just re-read these posts. It is possible this joker added fixed anchors so he could jumar Fandango (wtf!). That would assist him with the rap and clean of the new Wings of Steel to the right of Fandango.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Jun 11, 2009 - 10:42pm PT
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Chris2
"Climbup" I challenge you to rapping the east wall vs. walking off. You name the price, I will be down before you.
First of all, rapping the East Wall is so absurd I'm having a hard time believing this thread is knott a (bad) joke.
Secondly, I'll raise Chris2's challenge: From any route on the East Wall, I'll knott only easily
beat you with time to spare, I'll run back up to the top of the route and back to the base
and still leave you in the dust (and I'm old and out of shape). Thanks for the laugh!
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Salamanizer
Trad climber
Vacaville Ca,
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Jun 12, 2009 - 01:00am PT
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Well, considering the replies to Fandangos current condition, perhaps some bolt chopping is in order? Or at least changing out the rappel rings for regular hangers.
Any objections from the choir???
Pros/cons???
Lets hear em, nows your chance.
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Darren D.
Social climber
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Jun 12, 2009 - 01:49am PT
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It seems like I remember video of people huckin' off the top with a parachute. Just saying...
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Jun 12, 2009 - 03:21am PT
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-and that is relevant how?
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Darren D.
Social climber
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Jun 12, 2009 - 09:54am PT
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It's probably as relevant (or irrelevant) as telling him/her they should walk off when the specific question was about rappelling.
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Trad
Trad climber
northern CA
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Jun 12, 2009 - 11:22am PT
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Speaking of George Conner (or at least, his route), I ran into him yesterday at the Leap looking as dapper as ever.
His partner coming up below is a mutual friend, Dulfer Sitz, who is in fact the individual who bestowed upon me my ST name, Trad Muenter. (Now if I could just figure how how to change the settings so so the "author" wouldn't show up as plain "Trad".)
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kev
climber
CA
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Jun 12, 2009 - 12:43pm PT
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Sal,
Here's my vote - chop em and fill em.
kev
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Mr_T
Trad climber
The 7th Pin Scar on Serentiy Crack
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Jun 12, 2009 - 01:59pm PT
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I normally hate bolt chopping - think of it as similar to an a-hole surfer type attitude. But this time round it's not angry people defending their "turf"...
Please chop them. It is quite likely that rap anchors on the East Wall will lead to an accident either by rock fall onto a crew below or some anchor eff up. Maybe even leave a note at the board so that folks know what happened and why.
[Edit pull the anchors entirely, non rap hangers will lead to rap slings.]
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Darren D.
Social climber
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Jun 12, 2009 - 06:16pm PT
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Yes...heckling was deserved. I was pointing out that rappeling off of the east wall to get back to your packs is as contrived as using a parachute. There are a lot harder one pitch walk-offs as Joshua tree than for three at the leap.
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Footloose
Trad climber
Lake Tahoe
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Jun 12, 2009 - 07:17pm PT
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I've never read so much b.s. at S.T. The 2-rap rap station requires a 70m. Yes, it's in the vincinity of Fandago at the FAR right end of East Wall, clear of 49/50 routes.
I didn't construct the system. (Which was probably installed independent of Fandago.) But for two years not only have I used it, I've appreciated it, including its location. And so have ALL my partners. In this time, I've grown to like it. In fact, now that I think about it, it's probably the best constructive addition to the leap in 12 years. And in my two dozen or so raps, I've encountered not one team on Fandango, and only two parties or so on Psych, in all that time.
So cool your jets.
P.S., (a) the less it's talked about, the less people know about it. (b) it takes my partner and me 12-15 minutes to rap, and this would probably include a snack (some snacktime) at the ledge. (c) Don't like it, don't use it.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Jun 12, 2009 - 07:30pm PT
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cross-post with rockclimbing.n00b dab. jus' sayin'.
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the Fet
Supercaliyosemistic climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jun 12, 2009 - 07:55pm PT
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"I've never read so much b.s. at S.T."
Haven't been here long, huh?
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Salamanizer
Trad climber
Vacaville Ca,
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Jun 12, 2009 - 09:02pm PT
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I've never read so much b.s. at S.T.
I agree, this post is total B.S.
The 2-rap rap station requires a 70m. Yes, it's in the vicinity of Fandago at the FAR right end of East Wall, clear of 49/50 routes.
Footloose, I suggest you check your facts. First of all two 60m ropes will get you down the thing just fine. I've never owned a 70m rope but have climbed Fandango to those anchors many times in two pitches with a 60m. Second, it's not in the vicinity of Fandango, it goes strait down it, not independent at all.
I didn't construct the system. (Which was probably installed independent of Fandago.)
"Probably"???... not true at all as stated before.
But for two years not only have I used it, I've appreciated it, including its location. And so have ALL my partners. In this time, I've grown to like it. In fact, now that I think about it, it's probably the best constructive addition to the leap in 12 years. And in my two dozen or so raps, I've encountered not one team on Fandago, and only two parties or so on Psych, in all that time.
So cool your jets.
I know a couple people who have had others rap through their lines while trying to lead Fandango and I myself have been shut out from climbing the route by bumbling idiots rapping the line. It's becoming more frequent in fact. As for the best constructive addition to the Leap, I think not. There are other routes on East Wall you could have been rapping down the whole time, but no, someone had to retrobolt a different route so that lazy ass people who didn't want to walk the 10min decent could rap down. Totally lame, unnecessary and destructive to the nature of the route.
Give me one good reason why these bolts should stay beyond mere convenience. Otherwise, I'd suggest finding another mode of decent.
P.S., (a) the less it's talked about, the less people know about it. (b) it takes my partner and me 12-15 minutes to rap, and this would probably include a snack (some snacktime) at the ledge. (c) Don't like it, don't use it.
B.S. (a) Untrue, rapping down it is like a huge billboard for others. They will find out and get crazy ideas, at least the lazy ones. Bolt it and they will come.
(b) Horsepucky, unless you're attempting a speed record I'd say it probably takes you more like 12-15 min a pitch to rap the thing. (c) You sound just like a sport climber.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Jun 12, 2009 - 09:29pm PT
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Chop the atrocity and call it a day...
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the Fet
Supercaliyosemistic climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jun 12, 2009 - 09:31pm PT
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It takes me and a competent partner about 8 minutes per pitch to rap. I'm bet we could rap that line and beat most anyone hoofing it down to the Pony X trail and back up to the base of Fandango.
But if people are rapping and messing up people trying to lead Fandango sounds like a good case for retrobolt removal. I just hope if it's done, it's done right with the holes patched. Not smashed hangers like on East Wall.
The descent trail off Lover's is one of the nicest around. Cushy pine needles, very direct. I don't know why anyone would think a rap route is needed there.
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Trad
Trad climber
northern CA
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Jun 12, 2009 - 09:50pm PT
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OK I'm going to take a middle road which will probably piss off everyone on all sides but here goes.
IMHO the rap from the top is an accident waiting to happen (nor does it save significant time) and there's no downside if that anchor disappears.
On the other hand, more than once I've climbed the first pitch of Fandango at the end of the day for "one last pitch". It's a great 1st pitch and (until now) was usually empty, so being able to run up it and rap off was a great option (the 1st belay gear choices aren't THAT good).
If the issue is "East Wall rap route" then why not just remove the top anchor?
Fandango is a fun route either way. With no rap then a 1st pitch Fandango/2nd pitch Psychedelic Tree is a nice combo. The "worst" part of this is that it's going to be more crowded now because of all the attention!
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 12, 2009 - 10:01pm PT
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God how these posts become tempests in a teapot. I probably wouldn't be alive today if I rapped every time I could have walked off- and I've done thousands of raps. Never lieback when you can jam and never rap when you can walk off.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Jun 12, 2009 - 10:35pm PT
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Well said, Mr Donini.
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Chris2
Trad climber
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Jun 13, 2009 - 01:20pm PT
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Good one Knott, and I will up that "ante."
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Blitzo
Social climber
Earth
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Jun 13, 2009 - 04:21pm PT
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Lame!
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burntheman
Trad climber
slt
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Jun 13, 2009 - 04:36pm PT
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it's nice in the winter. but fandango sees plenty of traffic that it shouldn't be rapped in the summer.
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stella
climber
cali
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Jun 14, 2009 - 01:56pm PT
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hey gerballs, why don't you suk it. i didn't say anything about chopping those anchors, i just said that some dildo dropped his rope and a bunch rocks on me while i was climbing fandango. besides, those are two totally different scenarios, but obviously you didn't notice that because you're just here to talk sh!t. anyways, thanks for singling me out. any of my other posts you care to comment on?
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kev
climber
CA
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Jun 15, 2009 - 11:55am PT
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"P.S., (a) the less it's talked about, the less people know about it. (b) it takes my partner and me 12-15 minutes to rap, and this would probably include a snack (some snacktime) at the ledge."
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
a) It's on the Taco Stand brah - EVERYONE now knows.
b) if b is true you should take someones race bet.
c) chop chop chop....
kev
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Jun 15, 2009 - 01:06pm PT
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DRINK! CHOP! PATCH!
REPEAT!
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kev
climber
CA
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Jun 15, 2009 - 03:22pm PT
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Yo Tahoe Climber,
I think you need to re read the thread. A LOT of bay area folks are unhappy with these anchors. I'm sure it will be taken care of though. First thing is that the hangers aren't going to be their long - that's for sure....They can be put to better use.
kev
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Tahoe climber
Trad climber
a dark-green forester out west
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Jun 15, 2009 - 03:45pm PT
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I stand corrected on who's pissed/psyched.
Thanks to the brilliant guys who noticed.
I see more dweebs coming from the Bay Area and screwing stuff up than anywhere else, so I guess I was incorrectly projecting onto this issue.
And was there any comment on the important parts of the post or are you guys just jerking off on catching the small stuff?
(Never mind. I already know the answer.)
I still would abide by the FA'ist advice. Besides, historically, chopping hasn't seemed to solve a lot of problems.
Peace,
TC
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Jun 15, 2009 - 03:51pm PT
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I already have a line picked out that will utilize the hangers from the rap stations. The FA will be done ground up, severely runout, with Pitons employed for fixed protection if necessary.
At the summit tree will dangle a proper wind chime made of said hangers and other various bolt parts.
The route will be called "Walk Off"
Please send hangers/bolts to:
Wind Chime Routes
Strawberry CA
99431
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kev
climber
CA
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Jun 15, 2009 - 04:42pm PT
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Tahoe Climber,
Don't get me wrong there are a lot of Bay Area noobs - i'm sure there are a lot out of LA and else where.
I also would 100% agree with your comment about respecting the FA party's wishes if this was w.r.t (with respect to) a chicken bolt added or something (even though I find that really really egregious).
This however seems a little different - it's a rap route. This is a disturbing trend to get started at the leap. Additionally I know there are some people will remove this no matter what once they learn of it. I don't get up there too often so I prolly won't be getting to it anytime soon, but I know a few who will. I hope we can just agree to disagree on this.
Long and the short of it...
People, don't drill wholes without consulting the locals and understanding the local ethic, etc in an area.
God I hope at least they had the decency to drill by hand.
Mucci, we need to coordinate on this if it doesn't get dealt with soon.
kev
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Jun 15, 2009 - 04:56pm PT
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Tahoe climber wrote:
I still would abide by the FA'ist advice. Besides, historically, chopping hasn't seemed to solve a lot of problems.
Hey guys - I'm thinking of putting "up" a route on the East Wall - knott too far from The Line.
I'm pretty sure it will go - if knott, I'll just add a few modifications to the rock where necessary.
And of course, I'll put bolts at the top because it's a PITA to spend 3 minutes building a natural anchor.
So we're cool, right?
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Mr_T
Trad climber
The 7th Pin Scar on Serentiy Crack
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Jun 15, 2009 - 06:34pm PT
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So at Ouray there's an upper area (school room) where you get a lot of folks TR'ing and leading. To approach the area you start from above, walking a cat walk by the anchors. If you want to lead a route, you slap some gear on the TR anchors so someone won't chuck a rope down on you (or worse get on rap and dump a ton of ice down).
On Fandango, marking the top is not an option - all climbers originate from the base. Someone on rappel may not see a leader below and just chuck a rope down. Clearly the first person on a route has priority. But what happens if you're at the base, racking up, about to get started, and then someone starts rapping down. If the person on rap is far enough down, there's nothing they can do. The leader has to sit there for 1/2 hr or perhaps bail?
[Edit yeah, the Tahoe crowd will have no problem w/ the rap stuff on the week days when nobody is there. But it's gonna suck on the weekends when us bay area n00bs show up and start rapping down on parties coming up.]
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Footloose
Trad climber
Lake Tahoe
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Jun 15, 2009 - 06:41pm PT
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To read some of these comments in this thread, you'd think the Rap was over the Line or Pop Bottle, geez.
To all you opiners who haven't been to the Leap in a long time, who can't remember where Pop Bottle, the Line and Fandango are in relation to each other... and reading the thread leads me to think this applies to a lot of you... you should be quiet.
I'm happy to acknowledge the dilemma. On the one hand, I'd love to see the FAR RIGHT side of East Wall cleaned up, climbed more, enjoyed... because it's a beautiful area. (Kind of like Chim Chim feels, apparently, in regard to Woodford's.) If ever this happens, or when, even to a one-fourth frequency of the Line area, say, I'd happily stop rapping there.
On the other hand, when it's a Wed and I've just climbed P Tree (not Pop Bottle or Fantasia or the Line), I LOVE that nice 15 minute (tops: 20 min) rap down to my food, my boots, etc. before setting out to Central Wall or Tombstone or Surreal, a favorite circuit coming from East End Parking Lot.
Where do these raps into leads occur? Where? Not in the Tahoe area, not in my experience in the Tahoe area. Anyone who would rap down over another's lead isn't thoughtful, courteous and shouldn't be a climber anymore. (Do any of you know many like that? perhaps I'm blessed...)
A rap over Fantasia and a rap over Fandango are two different scenarios, indeed, that shouldn't be confused. How many of you vets out there who are speaking up remember that you can see the base of Fandago from the top of P. Tree just 30 feet away from rap station? Also, it must be said, (a) the area's many times cleaner than just two years ago even and (b) many of us locals climb during the week on some days when no other souls are around.
So there. This thread asked for opinions, I gave mine, and this has been my follow-up piece for what it's worth. Even so, as we speak, So and So is probably up there this very day... CHOP CHOP... inspired by many a comment.
Lastly, I'm sure you know, climber children of climber parents also read this site. Many have rapped that point, and not all who have done so are d-bags, f-wits, etc.. My opinion, again.
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Footloose
Trad climber
Lake Tahoe
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Jun 15, 2009 - 06:42pm PT
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Mr. T. You just nailed a couple of my points, perhaps would not have posted had you posted just a couple minutes earlier! Thnks for the added "thoughtful" response.
EDIT You can see the base of Fandango from P. Tree. For sure. Absolutely, positively. Anyone who's competent, a savvy climber, would check the base first before commencing a rap.
EDIT Alright. Solution. Hang a NO RAP ON WEEKENDS sign at station. (Solution inspired by Mr_T.) Not too complicated for most folks.
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james Colborn
Trad climber
Truckee, Ca
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Jun 15, 2009 - 06:56pm PT
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If a climb reaches the top at the Leap there is no rap. Simple. Even if the FA says it's Ok. Royal Robins says right here in my trusty new old guide book{Thanks Roy} "Descent is made toward the East to the erstwhile road which snakes along below the cliff". If Royal says so, it is so.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Jun 15, 2009 - 07:52pm PT
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How about a Main or West Wall rappel route?
And yes, I am too lazy to walk from over there!
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slobmonster
Trad climber
berkeley, ca
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Jun 15, 2009 - 08:36pm PT
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I (quite foolishly) decided to rappel the Main Wall a few years ago. I think I told you about this, Caught'. Long story short: Petch bailed me out, then fired that hard thing he was working on.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Jun 15, 2009 - 10:04pm PT
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hah!
totally busted. Ok, I was just trying to wind these guys up.
But, I really do need to figure out that lover's scoop descent off the right side one of these days...
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Zander
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Jun 15, 2009 - 11:52pm PT
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Maybe the bolts should be removed and replaced with some old rusty 1/4" bolts that ASCA removed from somewhere else. Leeper hangers. Slung with the American triangle, of course. Could add a little spice to the rappel.
Z
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WhyCantGerbalsDrive
climber
Lee Vining, CA
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Jun 16, 2009 - 10:20am PT
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sorry stella
just trying to get a rise out of you
how about some chopping then!
perhaps all the fixed anchors at the leap should be removed.
labour of love,surrealistic direct,hospital corner, fantasia, end of the line, better with bacon,etc
its not a gym for f*#ks sake. cant you just walk off ?
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Salamanizer
Trad climber
Vacaville Ca,
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Jun 16, 2009 - 09:32pm PT
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Hey Caught, I got the scoop on the west side decent. It's a big scoop of sh!t. Nothing a person with a weekend, clippers, saw and a lot of motivation couldn't fix up real nice though.
As for the East Wall rappel thing. All closing arguments were made last week. The jury is in and has reached a verdict.
By unanimous decision, the rappel route has been found guilty of being obstructive, potentially dangerous, unwarranted and unnecessary.
Now, two separate issues have risen which are to be taken into account which carry separate sentences.
1) The ability to rappel from the fixed anchors of Fandango.
2) The fixed anchors themselves.
Issue #1, Having been found guilty, the rappel chains allowing decent from Fandango are to be given the maximum sentence which is death. This sentence has already been carried out.
Issue #2 The fixed anchors on Fandango consist of four bolts on two separate anchors.
The wishes of a member of the F.A. team are to be considered in this matter as well as the wishes of those whom may use them.
The first anchor to be addressed are the anchors on the last (top) pitch. Since two bomber pins and several options for gear can be found in the immediate area, these bolts have been found "unnecessary" and hold the potential for "tat" and future rappeling situations to occur. For these reasons and the unanimous opinions of our peers, these two bolts have been found guilty and are to be sentenced to the maximum penalty...death! This sentence has already been carried out.
The second anchor to be addressed is the anchor on the first pitch. Questions of concern over less than ideal (or inadequate) gear options as well as the opinions of a member of the F.A. team have raised questions of doubt about whether these bolts actually are "unwarranted, unnecessary, potentially dangerous or obstructive.
The Tacojurys decision has been found to be "inconclusive" therefore the fixed anchors are to remain for the time being. Though the rappel chains have been removed, a two bolt anchor W/hangers remains until a unanimous decision as to its fate is reached.
So what say you Tacoheads.
My opinion is that the gear options for the belay on the first pitch really aren't that great. I've had worse to deal with but it could benefit from at least one bolt. A two bolt anchor is not necessary but is already there. If the two bolt anchor remains, the potential for a webbing rap anchor is high. If one bolt remains, the potential for someone adding another bolt in the future is high. If no bolts remain, well, you're stuck with a crummy anchor.
George Connor (of F.A. fame) has told me he doesn't care that the anchor has been retrobolted.
So here are our options;
1)Chop the damn thing.
2)Chop one bolt and leave the other to back up booboo anchor.
3)Leave anchor and deal with tat issues as they arise.
4)Leave anchor and have chain anchor returned cuz we don't want no stinking tat and don't care if people bail from the first pitch.
I vote for #2.
What say you.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Jun 16, 2009 - 09:51pm PT
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Good work Salamander! Did you keep the hangers for me? My vote is to remove one of the retro anchor bolts on P1. Provided the one left is in an appropriate place for the belay. I have not seen in person the location of the anchors but if they are higher or lower than the natural (original belay) chop em both.
Is the remaining bolt at the belay located where a competent person (with the permission of the FA) would have placed it to enhance the marginal belay?
If so I Vote #2
What kind of bolts were they?
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Jun 17, 2009 - 12:25pm PT
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If you are chopping bolts because you are afraid that somebody may rap off them, then chop every bolt at the Leap.
For instance, last week somebody left a bail biner on the first bolt of Labor of Love. I say the bolt is: GUILTY, GUILTY, GUILTY and it should be CHOP!, CHOP!, CHOP!!!
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Jun 17, 2009 - 01:26pm PT
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August, how does an established, bolted from ground up route compare to a retro-bolted (anchor) on a classic boltless climb when the FA was done?
quit with the "Let's chop everything" attitude, Remember gusty.... just trying to keep the leap from becoming a heap!
Have you climbed Fandango in it's original form?
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LuckyPink
climber
the last bivy
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Jun 17, 2009 - 03:45pm PT
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I vote #4 per reasons already stated in the option... it's in the book, a good bail option, ...glad to see the other dead.
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kev
climber
CA
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Jun 17, 2009 - 03:53pm PT
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Another vote for 2...
kev
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slobmonster
Trad climber
berkeley, ca
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Jun 17, 2009 - 05:14pm PT
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Option 4.
Otherwise, bolts will grow tat. And I don't like tat.
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Llewelyn Moss
Trad climber
CA
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Jun 17, 2009 - 06:40pm PT
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i would say #1... but then the new anchor bolts on the hourglass and the north face would have to get chopped as well...
once you chop, its hard to find a place to stop.
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Brian Biega
climber
Truckee, CA
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Jun 18, 2009 - 09:03am PT
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I vote #5. Put the old anchors at the top of Fandango back and put chains on top of the 1st pitch back. Or mail them to me and I WILL RETURN THEM TO THE OWNER. "cuz we don't want no stinking tat and don't care if people bail from the first pitch" or second.
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Footloose
Trad climber
Lake Tahoe
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Jun 18, 2009 - 11:32am PT
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Brian,
Finally another voice. Better late than never. I was feeling kind of alone... having to weather all this rock bigotry to come to ST re: the Leap... by myself.
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hoipolloi
climber
A friends backyard with the neighbors wifi
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Jun 18, 2009 - 06:33pm PT
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i saw this anchor last year. I rapped a fixed line that was on it to see what was up. Some older dude at the base got bent because it was 'his line.'
Big fat shiny anchor at the summit and one midway down, it was really retarded because it was so unnecessary and useless.
hopefully someone helps out and does a little chop chop (at least of the top anchor).
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada, CA
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Jun 18, 2009 - 08:23pm PT
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I agree with Brian B. #5 This thread just need to go away. Keep it off the Taco and let Brian or Petch take care of it on site.
My 2 cents.
Erik
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mark miller
Social climber
Reno
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Jun 18, 2009 - 08:28pm PT
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I'll loan Petch a .308 DPMS with a sweet Leopold scope for detrimenting lazy Phucks from rappelling. Take the walk, with the buzz tails and feel the leap.
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Salamanizer
Trad climber
Vacaville Ca,
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Jun 18, 2009 - 09:27pm PT
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Wow, seems to be alot of mixed emotions as to where we go from here.
mucci: the bolts on the first pitch anchor are actually in kind of a dumb ass spot. They were placed about waist high which makes it a PITA to belay from. They were not placed too near where the natural gear is, rather about just below where you would make the focus/powerpoint of your anchor. I don't know, where they are is all a matter of preference. The bolts used were 3/8 & 1/2 in stainless wedge anchors. Looked to be either Confast or Powers, I don't know. The bolts on the first pitch seem solid but the bolts on the upper pitch were a total hack job. One snapped off stud hidden by the hanger and one loose bolt. Looked to not be fully engaged and was spinning in the hole. The other bolt was solid.
August & Llewelyn: don't be ignorant, different situations call for different solutions, yall know that.
Brian: I may end up putting the chains on the first pitch back but the upper pitch... not gonna happen. And those chains have already been donated to "re"-bolting a worn out rappel anchor at the leap. In the future, before messing with an established route, please talk to people and get differing opinions as well as permission from the F.A. party before "retro"ing a route (not that you're the one who did it). These sorts of situations are unfortunate, but no one owns the rock and we all have to find a way to get along.
Mark: I just got my hands on a Panther LRT-(SASS) .308
Really allows you to "Reach out and touch someone".
Just gotta decide on the Optics now.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Jun 18, 2009 - 09:52pm PT
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Bunk anchor Eh? Good thing that station did not get alot of traffic, sounds like it was a disaster waiting to happen.
Thanks for your work, and the response.
Mucci
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Footloose
Trad climber
Lake Tahoe
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Jun 19, 2009 - 12:14am PT
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Alright, I promise myself and everyone else: no matter how taunting or humorous the retorts to come, this ends here-- at least for me.
Because I've got other fish in the fry, I'm getting old, time is short, and I'm a newbie with these threads here at ST. Indeed, for all I know this is expected typical ST banter -- like in Gran Torino, in the barber shop, between Walt, the barber and the kid -- it's just talk to wind everybody up! in our case, for the next climb perhaps -- and somebody pointed out to me, maybe the bolts aren't chopped, that in fact it's all just Web bluster. But I don't know... and with other variations to get down my beloved East Wall, I'm not as passionate about it anymore. (But it was the vulgar name calling initially that got me involved.)
So my choice for a parting shot-- I do deserve a parting shot for participating-- given the cross-thread http://supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=884068 it is simply this: Baghdad Bob. I'm reminded of Baghdad Bob. (But maybe nobody here remembers him in the day and age we live in, I don't know.) Anyway, to So and So (for winding me up)... kudos, and happy climbing. I am glad, believe it or not, that you are part of the climbing community.
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james Colborn
Trad climber
Truckee, Ca
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Jun 19, 2009 - 04:13pm PT
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Wow the BS banter is weak. I'm heading to the leap in the am. I'm gonna check out all this for myself.
When I was a kid I lived walking distance to a famous surf spot and I got all caught up in the "mybeach mywave" mentality. This rings familiar to that time. The only difference is that a guy that lives 90 miles away is the enforcer. What up with that?
A rappel route is not needed, but removing the bolts is just damaging.
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mark miller
Social climber
Reno
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Jun 19, 2009 - 04:21pm PT
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They usually call me AMF ( Abrasive Mutha PHucka) but If you have your convictions otherwise so be it. Chicken sh#t on the web is so easy to say.....
Rapping off the East wall Ain't right....Unless it's rainy cats and dawgs and the Lightning is making your hair stand up straight and the gear is zapping you...
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Kupandamingi
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Jun 19, 2009 - 04:40pm PT
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hey Mark - guess you'll have to take out Mike and I as we are guilty of using the rap route purely for convenience/laziness sake when trying to get a lot of mileage on East Wall. I certainly wouldn't have drilled it and I have no problem if those passionate about it chop it. But if its there and no climbers are on a route affected by my using it, I'd use it again. Nice ethics (or lack there of) eh? You ought to get out with us sometime....lets say at the Leap - you walk, well rap!!!
Greg
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Jun 19, 2009 - 05:12pm PT
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I guess my satire was not over the top enough. I'm actually fine with rap routes and I wish the whole ego thing over bolts would drop down a knotch or two. But it seems if there are some who will do anything to absolutely prevent all rapping at the leap, then the logical answer is CHOP EVERYTHING! But, then again, I wouldn't bet against Petch with a .308 DPMS.
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mark miller
Social climber
Reno
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Jun 19, 2009 - 05:33pm PT
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Greg "say it ain't so" ( Aka TM Herbert after Robbins bolted the prow) Not you and Mikey I. Oh man how can you sleep at night?
Take care Bro how long our you in country? I actually have a little time available but my hands are ground beef from a kitchen tear out. Maybe in a week or so .
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Kupandamingi
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Jun 19, 2009 - 06:45pm PT
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Mark,
it is so, perhaps you can try it before you condemn (it and us)! I'm headed out of the country again here shortly, but hope to get in a day next week up at the leap with mike to (in all seriousness) get some mileage in on the East Wall as I haven't been climbing much. Let him know when your available and we will try and work around it (weekdays only of course). Email me at greg.arta@gmail.com so we discuss in detail without detracting from this all important ethics debate
Greg
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Chris2
Trad climber
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Jun 19, 2009 - 07:45pm PT
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Not really a "debate." Rap bolts don't last long at The Leap.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Jun 19, 2009 - 07:50pm PT
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Rap bolts implies they were placed on rappel. We don't really know how these went in.
Rap stations on the other hand... well there are actually several at the leap.
Retro rap stations... a different matter entirely.
Sounds like I'd better rack a gat for climbing at the leap now!
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Chris2
Trad climber
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Jun 19, 2009 - 07:52pm PT
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Disagree with you on "that one." Rap bolts implies bolts put in place for rappeling.
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mark miller
Social climber
Reno
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Jun 19, 2009 - 11:36pm PT
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Well I just got an inside to the "Rap" route and was informed that it was established for the ice that forms in the extreme R.side of the east wall. The rock over there is a little "Chossy" It's right of Psychedelic tree and fandango. I will retract my sentiments until I can see it first hand ( Hopefully with in the next week), F^((*^*&^ lame rappers.
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Kupandamingi
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Jun 20, 2009 - 11:47am PT
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rap stations don't last long at the leap? Funny, I believe this one was put in well over a year ago and avoided controversy until subjected to the ST treatment.
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Brian Biega
climber
Truckee, CA
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Jun 20, 2009 - 09:56pm PT
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Mountaineering The Freedom of the Hills
First Edition, April 1960 ©
"Certainly if the ascent was Class Six he has no moral qualms in adopting what is usually the speediest and easiest method of Class Six descent–rappelling."
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mark miller
Social climber
Reno
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Jun 20, 2009 - 11:16pm PT
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Jeeshh Gerbil I'm backing down ( Been climbing on the east wall since 78')until I get the real beta first hand. Now you're pickin' a fight with the next idiot in line. Maybe you should reconsider your daily Steroid injection and lighten up on the testosterone. Maybe they could use a non intrusive rap line for that heavily used area. I was gung Ho against it but now I'm willing to "check out " the other side ...They Have some valid points....Think of the snakes that won't get stepped on from ignorant Sacramento climbers every weekend....Of course half my rack is courtesy of those week end climbers from CA.......
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Brian Biega
climber
Truckee, CA
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Jun 21, 2009 - 12:58am PT
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The top two bolts were removed as noted above and moved them to another fixed anchor contradicting earlier posts. “George Connor… there is no point in removing them. Maybe more people will climb the route now that it's clean and the anchors are convenient. I agreed.” Salamanizer Jun 10, 2009
In fact, the climb is done much more and remains far cleaner than it was 2+ years ago.
If anyone is still taking votes, I vote #5. Put the old anchors at the top of Fandango back and put chains on top of the 1st pitch back.
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ralph the klimber
Gym climber
ralph town
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Jun 21, 2009 - 11:48am PT
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Glad to see the internet is the moral/ethic majority in the low sierra climbing. Just a little FYI gonna replace the rap anchor and it will not be possible to remove without a cutting torch. Since the one fag from vacaville is trying to set some sort of pretend legal precedent we will follow suit!!!!!
Soon there will be heavier regualtions at the leap once the man get a little wiff of this rotten fish. No more jumping off of the cliffs, no more roadside parking in Strawberry....
There are many ways to skin a cat and my friends, I have many a blade and a stone to sharpen them with.
ps the old people talking about pointing guns at people...well there is an old skool saying "know your enemy."
pps chris mac your sh#t has created a whole new realm of experts.
ppps sac climbers, why try to press your sh#t thoughts on us...you f*#ked your auburn crag and now you want to move your bs up here???? the whole nor cal climbers org is a farce and i have been talking to land managers locally to input my .3865864574 cents worth on who you are.
good day and double check your knott.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Jun 21, 2009 - 01:19pm PT
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Pigs on the Wing was not retrobolted by Salamanizer.
I saw the guys who bolted it, and climbed it right after they finished it. I thought it was a new line at the time, got home and looked at my guidebook. I'm still not sure if it's a retro of Pigs on the Wing since I don't know anyone who's done Piggies.
But I know Salamanizer, and he didn't retro that one. The guys who put in the bolts claimed to be 'Tahoe Locals.'
EDIT: Welcome back Ralph! Hope all is well in Ralph Town.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Jun 21, 2009 - 11:19pm PT
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Have Oxy/ Acetaline will travel. Ralphy, be sure to put em in by the 4th, the sparks will probably be a good show.
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Salamanizer
Trad climber
Vacaville Ca,
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Jun 22, 2009 - 03:35am PT
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Wow, this thread is like a circus... brings out the trash in the community.
Brian, you're stretching the facts a bit. Connor did say he didn't see a point in chopping the anchors, but he didn't like them and thought they were an unfortunate occurrence brought on by uninformed, lazy, selfish climbers with no respect for those who came before them. Of course he wouldn't say that, but that's how it is. Yes, retrobolting is weak sauce and grounds for chopping but the final decision had more to do with rapping through climbers than any retro bolting scenario. Rap your own line if you feel so inclined. No one will be climbing up that.
Ralf the klimber, You sir, are an idiot. I will not waste my time with you.
WhyCantGerkoffsDrive, Pigs On the Wing was retroed by some other uninformed dipshits such as yourself, not me. Sorry to burst your little bubble. Why haven't I removed them? I have no interest in running around all over chopping bolts. The anchors on Fandango were removed for other reasons including being retro anchors. I know that's a little beyond you at this time, but hang in there, you'll get it.
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ralph the klimber
Gym climber
ralph town
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Jun 22, 2009 - 11:06am PT
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Cant really say when the anchor will be replaced still gotta fab out the new hardware.
mucci you spelled acetylene incorrectly so I know you are an idiot and do not have to knowledge to use it accordingly...anyways against the law to use open cutting flames on nf land, unless of course you are the railroad.
the whole debate on who states what is right for the crag is a waste, this is the 2000's and ethics of convenience is now the standard and has been since climbing started. the small majority of rock cops has always tainted the sport. does not matter what their ability is or even their locale. the internet has just turned mouthy spray lord braggarts into the light. the ignorance of weakend warriors has made these people into some sort of deity. whatever happened to climbing for the sake of climbing and enjoying yourself and the company of others???? today's modern climber is too tied up in looking good no matter what the cost. there is no majority on these issues as they do not pertain to real life. nor is there any ground rules, there are no set list of ethical standards that must be followed there shouldn't be.
so i say lets fire up a nor cal bolt war, we can play as rough or rougher then most and we have lots of time off. i would like to see the man get involved cause apparently the central valley/bay area climber needs some sort of written standard so lets make it a legal one. we will take the pure ethical standard of do what i want. will chop and place bolts at will and the most popular climbs will be some the most viciously abused victims...
thanks boys for giving us a new hobby.
toodles and dont deck.
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Brian Biega
climber
Truckee, CA
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Jun 27, 2009 - 02:04pm PT
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Posted on RockClimbing.com
Fandango -5.9
Average Rating : 3.00 out of 5 Route sequence (left to right):
Route Summary | Ascent Notes (3)
First Ascent:
Update Type of Climb:
Rock Safety Rating:
G Pitches:
Update Protection:
Cams, .5"-3" Nuts, 1 set. Length :
Update Consensus Ratings
Difficulty 5.9
Safety Rating G
Exposure
Rock Quality
Scenery
Fun Factor
Description:
Climbs up a thin crack strait up the center of a white water streak to the right of Psychedelic Tree. The line is good with solid pro all the way to the top. Climb the first pitch to the ledge and belay here. The second pitch moves out right up a white splitter crack then back left into the dihedral. Pull up a steep section onto an interesting looking slab, then up a short corner to the anchors. You'll find two fixed pins at the top but save a # 2 and 3 Camalot for the belay. Edited to add: this route was recently cleaned out by a party who did an excellent job of removing loose rock, vegitation and dirt. The route is now as clean as any on East Wall. Thanks! Two bolted rap anchors were also established at the belays by this party w/out permission from F.A. party. They are unnecessary and were placed for there convenience only. The F.A. party stated that though unfortunate and unnenessisary, the damage is already done and they should remain. Please! Lets keep retro bolting out of the Leap.
Descent Options:
Walk off or rap w/ 2 60m ropes.
Submitted by: salamanizer on 2008-06-05
Views: 168
Route ID: 77170
If you put up a route and someone changes the nature of it by adding bolts and you make a statement that the damage is already done and they should remain. should you go against what the F.A. party states?
There are convenience anchors all over the leap. And they are convenient! As were the anchors that were pulled.
Ralph- Any update on the new anchors? Looking forward to using them. Thanks in advance.
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Salamanizer
Trad climber
Vacaville Ca,
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Jun 29, 2009 - 03:09am PT
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Wrong!!! I did no such thing. Been at Cal Domes, besides I could care less about Eagle Lake Cliffs. Everybody uses that putty, that's what you use when you want to do a good job.
As for writing down all my accents... I don't, that's just some of them, helps with finding new climbing partners, but who gives a sh#t about that? What kind of sick obsessed psychos care enough to read everything about a person? What, are you googling my name to find out what kind of underwear I wear.
Quit with the name calling, slander, assumptions and outright lies. No one believes you. Damn near everyone on this site who lives in the area knows exactly who I am and no one's believing your bullsh#t.
As for putting up routes instead of chopping them. I have chopped three bolts in my life, but I have placed many. I have new routes that have gone in ground up in Yosemite, Lovers Leap, Sugarloaf, Eagle Rock, Bear River, Diablo and a few in places with no names. I'm not apposed to bolts, rap bolting, anchors etc... It was those particular bolts, in that particular situation which I and dozens of others felt were unacceptable. It was nothing personal against you or anyone else. I'm sorry you got so butt hurt over it.
Your Internet bickering, name calling, lying and slandering is childish. If you want to speak with me about this, I suggest you attempt to do it in person or via email. Because doing it on an open forum is a total bitch move and everyone here knows it. Judging by all the emails I've received over the weekend, I think it's having a sorta reverse effect than what you intended.
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Jun 29, 2009 - 11:46am PT
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i will side on the removal effort.
i will sound my voice for the efforts of salamanizer.
i don't live in vacaville. not that there is anything wrong with that.
when you've got nothing to work with, such as this gerbal fella, i guess you need to make fun of where folks live.
out in the open, middle of the day, let us again remove the anchors.
i will pitch in efforts and support, salamanizer.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Jun 29, 2009 - 12:30pm PT
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Thumbs up and amen to salamanizer.
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kev
climber
CA
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Jun 29, 2009 - 12:46pm PT
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Ralph,
Although Mucci may, or may not, know how to use a cutting torch, (I'm sure that I do) the job can be done without the torch.... And Mucci has plenty of help to do this. Prolly won't happen on the 4th though cause I think he's up in shuteye with me.
kev
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bwancy1
Trad climber
Here
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Jun 29, 2009 - 01:20pm PT
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I used to be a para-local at the Leap.
I moved away about 7 years ago, and a few years ago took a trip up there to refill myself with that wonderful place.
What a circus. Between the crowds, dogs, cats (yes, cats on leashes), yelling, retrobolting blah blah blah, I couldnt stand it. Cant say Ill ever be back.
It's sad to see this place succumb to the hordes. We should all take up ATV-ing.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Jun 29, 2009 - 01:30pm PT
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bwancy1 wrote:
What a circus. Between the crowds, dogs, cats (yes, cats on leashes), yelling, retrobolting blah blah blah, I couldnt stand it. Cant say Ill ever be back.
I assume the weekends still amount to a giant clusterfuçk as usual, but I figure the
weekdays would still be tolerable, especially if fees are being charged these days...
Also, Is it just me - or did a bunch of posts (approx. 5) get deleted from this thread?
What's the deal?
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Jun 29, 2009 - 01:38pm PT
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yes hardmannknot,
someone posted that the anchors had been re-installed. then deleted the post.
we are dealing with little boys (or girls?) here.
maybe just outta high school? i'm guessing this based on their conduct and demeaner.
these kind are simple to deal with.
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ChirpioBartholomew
Boulder climber
Dixon
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Jul 15, 2009 - 05:25pm PT
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"Anchors with rappel rings were also added to the top where good gear and three solid pins made up the original anchor." Salamanizer
Salamizer "the Chopper" chopped the bolts but left the pins.
Gerbals - Of course the anchors are manky. The good one's got pinched. Why? Because Salamizer" the Chopper" stole the good anchors to put them on his own project.
"And those chains have already been donated to "re"-bolting a worn out rappel anchor at the leap.................. These sorts of situations are unfortunate, but no one owns the rock and we all have to find a way to get along." Salamanizer
fattrad - Ever climbed in Yosemite?
Salamanizer - Are you trying to tell people that old routes can't have modern conveniences?
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Jul 15, 2009 - 06:24pm PT
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Chirpio, it's against ASCA policy to replace pins with bolts except in special circumstances. Especially since many piton anchors are not original.
I've emailed you - please contact me. Thanks.
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slobmonster
Trad climber
berkeley, ca
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Jul 15, 2009 - 06:57pm PT
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"Are you trying to tell people that old routes can't have modern conveniences?"
Seriously?
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ChirpioBartholomew
Boulder climber
Dixon
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Jul 16, 2009 - 10:06am PT
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Greg- What defines special circumstances? Bail slings?
slobmonster - Salamanizer "the Chopper" seems to be the judge on that one
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Jul 16, 2009 - 12:12pm PT
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What defines special circumstances is, for instance:
 manky anchor with at least one original bolt, plus various pitons, fixed hexes, knot jams, slung now-dead tree, etc. This is the only case where we normally replace with bolts - the key being at least one original bolt.
trees getting damaged and the climbing community is totally behind replacing with bolts.
original piton anchor required for rappel where the climbing community is behind it.
request from the FA team to replace their original rappel anchor(s) with bolts, and the climbing community is OK with it (for instance the Speed of Life anchors, where both members of the FA team asked us to fix up the mess).
replacement of key pro piton with bolt when there's no modern pro, the community is behind it, and the FA(s) are fine with it. And the opposite is true - when the FA and/or community is not behind it, no replacement.
I'm not saying that this isn't a case of an original anchor where nearly everyone was behind it (minus one person), but you need to talk to us before replacing piton anchors with bolts. Is there a walk off? Is there pro for a belay if the pins are removed?
I've had the OK from FAs to replace original piton anchors with bolts, then after pulling the pins and cleaning the crack, found that the crack takes bomber gear and so bolts were not needed. Yes, it changed the nature of the route - fixed anchor to no fixed anchor - but the route was not originally rappelled, and bolts were not needed. And in the immediate term, it changed the nature of the belay from a nasty-old-pitons in dirty crack (sketchy) to clean crack with no pins in the way of cams (not sketchy).
But regardless, the ASCA policy is very simple: one-for-one bolt replacement, anything else you need to talk to us (and nearly always the community) before acting.
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ChirpioBartholomew
Boulder climber
Dixon
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Jul 16, 2009 - 12:22pm PT
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Greg - Thanks for clarifying
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WhyCantGerbalsDrive
climber
Lee Vining, CA
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Jul 19, 2009 - 04:38pm PT
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foothill choppers at it again, fandango anchors stolen for the second time this month. you were right kasang.
locals will rap this route until the end of time...
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bwancy1
Trad climber
Here
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Jul 20, 2009 - 11:38am PT
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Greg,
Can we find the ASCA rebolting policy on the web?
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ChirpioBartholomew
Boulder climber
Dixon
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Jul 25, 2009 - 01:41pm PT
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So what say you Salamanizer
You "The Chopper" gave options above.
What say you.
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Joe Monectose
Big Wall climber
Oakdale, CA
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Jul 25, 2009 - 08:45pm PT
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what's up with this rap route? is it still there? mixed details on this site.
thanks, joe
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Jul 27, 2009 - 11:15am PT
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i must rappel. i must rappel.
i must rappel. i must rappel.
i must rappel. i must rappel.
FREEDOM to rappel is MINE. all MINE.
you maybe should try a different brand of coffee.
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ChirpioBartholomew
Boulder climber
Dixon
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Jul 30, 2009 - 10:21am PT
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Joe- I did the rappel Sunday. No problems but did have to leave some tat at the top anchor.
Bird
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