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steveA
Trad climber
bedford,massachusetts
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Topic Author's Original Post - May 18, 2009 - 11:02pm PT
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I was attending my son's graduation from the University of Pennsylvania today and to my suprise, Ivon Chouinard was also there
receiving an honorary Doctor of Letters degree for his efforts in saving the environment.
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mooser
Trad climber
seattle
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May 18, 2009 - 11:12pm PT
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Congrats on your son's graduation!
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hagerty
Social climber
A Sandy Area South of a Salty Lake
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May 18, 2009 - 11:18pm PT
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Is this Ivon Chouinard related to Yvon Chouinard?
;-)
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
North of the Owyhees
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May 18, 2009 - 11:22pm PT
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a bastard brother, maybe?
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GDavis
Trad climber
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May 18, 2009 - 11:31pm PT
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"That guy is a dick. Period. "
Most hardcore environmentalists are. They have to be.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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May 18, 2009 - 11:32pm PT
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Me wonders if he's ever met & spoken to him. . . .?????
just sayin'. . .
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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May 19, 2009 - 12:03am PT
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"Just saying....."
You saying Ivan is a Russian?
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
North of the Owyhees
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May 19, 2009 - 12:41am PT
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Well? Ivan....hmmmm. Russian?, hmmmmmmmmm.
What are the chances there?
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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May 19, 2009 - 12:49am PT
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RR and I used to call him "Frenchy", privately
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jstan
climber
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May 19, 2009 - 02:38am PT
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Dick Dumais who, for some reason seemed to know about such things, gave me a fifteen minute lecture on how to pronounce Schwinard. I, being a poor student, didn't get it right even then.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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May 19, 2009 - 02:46am PT
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Chouinard's family was Quebecois (French-Canadian) - many people in New England have ancestors from Quebec or New Brunswick. Yvon (sometimes Yvan) is not an unusual name in Quebec.
The cartoonist/satirist Garry Trudeau is also of Quebecois descent. A distant cousin of Prime Minister Pierre Trudeau - all the Trudeaus in North America are apparently descended from someone of that name who arrived in the late 17th century.
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GBrown
Trad climber
North Hollywood, California
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May 19, 2009 - 03:19am PT
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I always thought that a Doctor of Letters was a elbbarcS champion (that's "Scrabble" for someone who has a Doctorate). And where the hell is Dick Dumais these days JStan? I'm wondering if I would see him around when I'm back in the Gunks in October.
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steveA
Trad climber
bedford,massachusetts
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Topic Author's Reply - May 19, 2009 - 07:31am PT
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Sorry I incorrectly spelled Yvon's name on my original post. I managed to catch a few words with him before I was chased away by PENN security. I did a few climbs with him and TM Herbert in the Tetons back in 1971. He introduced me to fly fishing which I still love to do everytime I go into the Wind Rivers. I'm going in there this August-can't wait!
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RDB
Social climber
way out there
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May 19, 2009 - 12:27pm PT
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Tami, have you read "Let My People Go Surfing" by YC?
Interesting read for anyone who has been around since the '70s.
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Anguish
Mountain climber
Jackson Hole Wyo.
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May 19, 2009 - 01:24pm PT
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He also has an honorary degree from Yale. Which makes him Dr. Dr. Chouinard, now.
This from U Penn:
Honorary Degrees
May 2009
Yvon Chouinard, Founder, Patagonia, Inc., Co-founder, One Percent For The Planet: Doctor of Humane Letters
George H. Crumb, Pulitzer Prize winning Composer, Walter H. Annenberg Professor Emeritus in the Humanities, University of Pennsylvania: Doctor of Music
Jennifer Yvonne Mokgoro, GL’90, Judge, Constitutional Court of South Africa: Doctor of Laws
Eric E. Schmidt, Chairman of the Board and Chief Executive Officer, Google, Inc.: Doctor of Science
Susan Solomon, Senior Scientist, Earth System Research Laboratory, National Oceanic & Atmospheric Administration, Co-chair of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, 2002-2008: Doctor of Science
Muhammad Yunus, Founder and Managing Director, Grameen Bank, With Grameen Bank, recipient of the 2006 Nobel Peace Prize: Doctor of Laws
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hagerty
Social climber
A Sandy Area South of a Salty Lake
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May 19, 2009 - 01:25pm PT
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If you don't want to buy products made in China, you really need to do careful homework. Although Company X "manufactures" their product in the US, they may well be merely assembling components that are actually made in China. Where is the ideological line?
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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May 19, 2009 - 02:00pm PT
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It's a doo wop song.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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May 19, 2009 - 02:21pm PT
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Let My People Surf is Yvon's book, part memoir and part manifesto. It is fairly readable, and it has some fascinating stories in it, like Chouinard and Frost finding some ancient corduroy mill in Italy and contracting for unusually beefy fabric for knickers until the machine needles wore out.
I find it amusing that folks call Patagonia "Gucci." Patagonia's pricepoint is pretty consistently about the same as Banana Republic or JCrew and for far better designed, manufactured, and sourced goods. There are exceptions, but they're easy to identify and avoid.
To get cheaper stuff, you need to shop WalMart or Old Navy or Sheplers. And then you get cheap-ass materials that fall apart.
I find Patagonia pretty impressive in terms of the consistency of their design and production. Doesn't mean that Yvon isn't a diva on site. Never met the guy.
Edit: DMT posted while I was typing: "The POINT is its hard to make some lofty enviro claims when the company is sourcing its clothing in China. Feet of clay in other words."
I disagree, sort of, at least mildly: Patagonia is really open about sourcing (esp. when compared to other outdoor industry competitors), and the interactive routing map on the website offers a pretty frank discussion of the costs and trade-offs of production.
I do agree this far: I think that a lot of clothing manufacturers could do more production in the US-- there are still dozens if not hundreds of textile mills in the mid-South that could be fired up for production. If shipping/transport costs continue to rise, then that may provide some spark. I also agree that Yvon's tone can be annoyingly self-righteous.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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May 19, 2009 - 03:03pm PT
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I worked for Patagonia for ten years and I agree that the Company and Yvon can appear as self righteous. There is also a bit of a cult feel in Ventura, to some extent you have to drink the cool aid(sp?) to prosper- but, having been there, I disagree with the general tenor of the posts on this topic.
Yvon is a very committed conservationist and what he does with Patagonia is not green marketing. When he announced that he was going 100% to organic cotton we reps just about crapped our pants. We thought that we would price ourselves out of the market. YC said it was the right thing to do and if sales suffered so be it. It turns out he was right.
When clothing production started shifting to China and elsewhere, he resisted and continued as much production in the SE as he could. The problem became more of the quality he was getting than the price. As an Alpinist I often was at odds with some of the fabric/design decisions made by Patagonia, but I was always very impressed with the consistently high level of quality. I am still wearing some of my samples that are 20 years old.
As with any company that succeeds in corporate America, Patagonia is not without it's warts, but I'll always believe that they were instrumental in getting other companies to look at their business's in a much friendlier environmental context.
I am sure that Yvon Chouinard would like to be considered a committed and effective environmentalist more than anything else.
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kunlun_shan
Mountain climber
SF, CA
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May 19, 2009 - 04:07pm PT
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Tami, you wrote "I wind up trusting the places I purchase from . I 'm not saying I trust Patagonia.......I know I sure don't trust MEC"
I know this is a bit off-thread, but am curious what you don't trust about MEC? Chinese manufacturing, or?
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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May 19, 2009 - 04:09pm PT
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My strategy is to consume as little as possible, knowing that I still consume more than I really need to. We're all hypocrites in that sense, and it's always hard to distinguish between mere "wants" and true "needs". But if you don't buy stuff in the first place, its origins and impacts are of less concern. Although if we all consumed less, the economy (about 2/3 based on want rather than need) would be very unhappy. (There's some argument that the current economic downturn is in part due to the baby boomers finally getting to an age where they consume less, are downsizing, etc.)
When I do consume, I try to get products that are reliable and durable, from stores and manufacturers that at least are credibly trying with regard to things like labour standards, environmental impacts, local origin, etc. Preferably companies that aren't too self-righteous, and are always trying to do better. Organizations like Patagonia and MEC fit that bill. Sure, they're easy targets. But the fact that they've knowingly set themselves up as targets speaks for itself.
I haven't met Yvon, but am quite sure he's as complicated and sometimes self-contradictory as the rest of us. He has shown considerable leadership, whether with regard to climbing equipment innovation, clean climbing, or more recently the environment generally. I'm sure he doesn't mind a bit of criticism. It is a bit amusing that he seems to believe that surfers are more responsible than climbers. Both groups are spirited, and both well rooted in adolescent male sociology, with all that implies - exploration, risk, territory, in groups and out groups, etc. I doubt that the net per capita environmental impact of the one group is much different than the others'. As citizens of developed countries, we all have unsustainable impacts, even if we're careful to minimize those from our recreation.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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May 19, 2009 - 04:27pm PT
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"The places I have seen Patagonia stores are some of the highest rent retail districts imaginable. A retailer needs big gross margins and significant sales at those margins, just to pay the rent."
But they don't pay the rent-- I would expect that the premiere locations are chosen primarily for branding reasons, rather than the ability to produce profits at a specific site.
I haven't seen the books, but Patagonia has to make their biggest margins via online sales. Next would be high-volume big box folks like REI. You put a store in Chamonix not because you think sales there will cover the rent, but because you want to continue the brand association with the Alps. That doesn't bother me much. The mom-n-pop, owner-maker-craftsman deal evaporated before WW2.
The high margin items will be the things that smart consumers avoid: plastic underwear, logo t-shirts, and fleeces.
So far as Patagonia having moved out beyond a purely climber market, if the company hadn't, it'd be gone. And honestly, so long as they can maintain quality control and continue to produce technical wear, good on 'em. Get the white American middle-classes out of LaCoste and Tommy Bahama and Faconnable and into something with better design and an at least somewhat greener production.
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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May 19, 2009 - 04:37pm PT
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I was given a copy of Glen Denny’s book, Yosemite in the Sixties, last Hell-mas. It is a Patagonia book and is printed in China. After removing the plastic bubble wrap and cellophane from the book, I opened it to find that it had apparently been dropped on the floor, stepped on, had black smudges on some of the pages, and was filled with Chinese dust. One corner was bent inward – a result of it hitting the floor. So, somewhere along the production line the book was damaged, but then was put back on the line, packaged, and then sold as if it were just fine. I sent it back to where it came from, and then it was sent back to Patagonia mail order.
Where’s your quality control now, Pata-sellouts??? And BD Camalots too???????????
LAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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May 19, 2009 - 04:57pm PT
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What can you get with an honorary Ph. D.?
Heck, let everybody have one!
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hossjulia
Trad climber
Eastside
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May 19, 2009 - 05:05pm PT
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I read "Let My People Go Surfing" after the *crew* left copies where I work.
I thought it was good, and it offers up a sustainable business model that was a little too dry for me, but that I would refer back to if need be.
Donini's comments are spot on.
Now if the US cotton growers would get on the organic bandwagon and hemp is legalized for industrial purposes I think you'd see the textile industry in this country take off again.
minerals, ewe that's kinda gross. (See you soon?)
I have not been that impressed with the quality of books printed in China. (Ron Kauk's little book comes to mind, it has really bad register problems.)
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JoeG
climber
California
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May 19, 2009 - 05:10pm PT
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It is pretty easy to write off China or any other country's working conditions with blanket statements that have been posted. But sorry the conversation has evolved a bit. Some of the world's best factories are in China, better conditions and benefits than workers get here in the USA. Sure they aren't all like that, but it requires the consumer to do some research on the products they by. Patagonia for instance is pretty transparent as far as a company goes, showing you what is inside the factory through the footprint chronicles, publishing their factory list where their product is made and has a department dedicated to social responsibility. They are not perfect but they are better than most brands out there.
http://www.patagonia.com/web/us/footprint/index.jsp?slc=en_US&sct=US
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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May 19, 2009 - 05:21pm PT
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Yeah, Julia, it was kinda gross. See you in a couple of weeks! Thanks for the updates in the thread that you started!
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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May 19, 2009 - 07:16pm PT
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I thought the Patagonia stores were mostly franchises?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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May 19, 2009 - 08:28pm PT
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No- most, if not all are owned by Patagonia. They like to be able to control their business.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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May 19, 2009 - 08:34pm PT
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Steve- did Mark get his PHD? Give him my congrats. How is your cabin coming?
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